BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs

Subject: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:04 AM

I found this on the net today. Interesting reading.

More than one in 10 British Muslims think the perpetrators of the London bombings last year should be regarded as martyrs, according to an opinion poll.

Some 1,131 Muslim adults were questioned by phone and online in the first half of June by the Populus organisation for The Times and ITV television, in what the newspaper called the biggest-ever pulse-taking of the nation's 1.6 million strong Muslim community.
Fifty-six percent thought Prime Minister Tony Blair's government was not doing enough to combat extremism in the Muslim community, while 65 percent thought the Muslim community needed to do more to integrate itself into "mainstream British culture".

Seventy-nine percent said there were no circumstances that would justify suicide bombings in Britain against military targets, and 78 percent said they would be angry to learn that a close family member had joined Al-Qaeda.
Eighty-seven percent disagreed when asked if the four British Muslims who carried out the July 7, 2005 attacks on three London subway trains and a double-decker bus, killing themselves and 52 others and injuring more than 700, "should be considered martyrs".

But The Times said the 13 percent who felt that they should be seen as martyrs represented a "significant minority", as did the 16 percent who believed that, while the attacks were wrong, the cause was right.

"These results show that there are people within the Muslim communities who are so far away from the mainstream of society, as well as the mainstream of British Muslims, that they think that they are at war with the rest of the community," it quoted Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality, as saying.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:06 AM

The title should have read martyrs, not marty, which is just stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:19 AM

Why are ALL your posts intended to stir up racial trouble? Why not post something about music, or at least something that's not bile- filled? In short, why don't you f*** off and die?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:40 AM

Why are ALL your posts intended to stir up racial trouble?

Huh? (1) To quote an opinion poll (about Bush or whatever) is a standard opening of Mudcat threads.
(2) Muslims are not a race
(3) The 'ALL' is simply wrong as a quick search shows. Penguin Egg has often posted on music threads.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:43 AM

Islam is a religion, not a race, so how am I racist? If I was to attack the neo-con religious right, would you say that I was filled with bile. I have said this elsewhere and I will say it again. I dislike Islam because of what it turns people into. Think of the fatwah against Rushdie and the silence of the majority of Muslims on the subject. Think of the bombings in Spain and London, not to mention the countless suicide bombers in Israel. Think of the murder of Theo van Gogh. Think of their barbaric practices, such as the stoning to death of adulterous in Muslim countries-or their gruesome public executions. Think how Muslims managed to intimidate this country into not showing those Belgium cartoons. Think how the left wing in this country derides the religious right and yet gives support to Muslims in this country, who often have an equally reactionary agenda.

We have to face up to Islam. To do otherwise is to bury our heads in the sand while they drag us into some medieval theocratic nightmare, out of which we might not awake.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:48 AM

By the way, disliking Islam and disagreeing with Muslims is not the same thing as hating Muslims. Muslims are just people, afterall. However, I am under no obligation to like Islam. If a muslim bomber blows up a bus full of Israeli school children, am I suppose to try and "see it" from their point of view or otherwise keep silent?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:52 AM

not about marty wild then...?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:08 AM

Yeah, okay. What is surprising about that statistic? I think it's quite encouraging that 9 out of 10 Muslims in the UK don't think so.

What surprises me is that a bit more than 1 out of 10 North Americans still think the Iraq War was a good and necessary idea. Like...maybe 3 out of 10. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:22 AM

Interesting things statistics, we all dip into them and take out what suits our point of view. Funny how many differing agendas the same set of statistics can justify!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:42 AM

Islam is a religion, not a race, so how am I racist?

Pure pedantry, Penguin Egg. You know full well that both religious and racial predjudice are encompassed in the term racist.

In answer to your question about a Moslem bomber blowing up a bus full of Israeli schoolchildren. No you are not supposed to keep silent. But why go into details of the perpetrators religion? After all, as you say, Islam is just a religion. Religions in themselves cannot do any harm. It is the people that do the damage. Why not just refer to these evil doers as bombers or murderers and leave religion out of it? Unless you just want to create bad feeling against that religion?

The other interesting thing about statistics, Giok, is that they can prove that nearly 50% of people are below average intelligence:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:51 AM

This is as good a place as any to record that one of the British soldiers who were killed this week in Afghanistan was himself a moslem.
Lance Corporal Jabron Hashmi was born in Pakistan, close to the Afghan border.
His family say that he was proud to be a moslem and to be a British soldier. He was passionate about his mission and believed that his work would build bridges between peoples.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Micca
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:52 AM

or how about 12 1/2% of the apostles betrayed Jesus

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Micca
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:53 AM

or should that read 8.3%?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:55 AM

That should be 8.333333333333333333333%.

More statistics- you probably have more than the average number of legs.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:55 AM

Dunno, Micca, 93.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot...

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:04 AM

Marty was a bit of a thread bomber you know...

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:06 AM

I don't believe that half of all Muslims think the bombers were martyrs anyway.

(Go on, correct me someone. I dare ya!)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:25 AM

Dave the self-righteous sanctimonious prigish Gnome,

The reason I mention that the bombers were Muslims was because it is significant. You never get Palestinian Christians blowing themselves up on a bus. Islam is an agressive and expansionist religion with a history soaked in blood, as we in London, Madrid, Israel, Philipines, etc. know only too well.The one thing that unites these disparate murderers is their religion. To ignore that is to ignore the reality of the situation. Their religion is not incidental, but fundemental to their mindset.

As for me being a racist because I dislike a religion is stupid. Religion is a body of beliefs which you can either like or dislike, rather like politics. If someone is a devout fascist, am I suppose to respect and understand their beliefs? Hardly!

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:27 AM

The last posting was from me, by the way, just in case you hadn't guessed.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:38 AM

Oooooooooh (Clutching handbag to chest). Been reading a dictionary have we? Was I a bit too close to the mark when I suggested that you may just be stiring up bad feeling?

self-righteous = Piously sure of one's own righteousness; moralistic.

sanctimonious = excessively or hypocritically pious

prigish = A person who demonstrates an exaggerated conformity or propriety

Gosh, you know me so well don't you? :-) I still refer you back to your own song -

A stranger to the truth is he
There's not a lie he hasn't told.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:39 AM

Wrong avian species- more appropriately Duck Egg. Or possibly duck's arse.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:46 AM

Dave the Gnome. You have not addressed a single one of the issues thatI have raised. I may reply to insults by more insults, but at least I don't lose sight of the debate. Would you like to respond or do you have nothing to say?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:55 AM

I didn't see any issues raised which were worth my time responding to. But I do suggest you look back up the thread to see who started insulting who. Not that it matters to me but it would help your arguments if you occasionaly got some things right.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:07 AM

The issues that I raised were
1 that the bombers being Muslims is significant.
2That you never get Palestinian Christians blowing themselves up. 3That the one thing that unites these disparate murderers is their religion and
4 that their religion is not incidental, but fundemental, to their mindset.

I did not start the insults. That was done by that wretched Paul Burke and then by yourself. Scroll back if you do not believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:08 AM

"Islam is an agressive and expansionist religion with a history soaked in blood"

It is actually the only opposition, in the eyes of many people in exploited and disadvantaged countries, to expansionist, aggressive, and far more blood- soaked western free- market capitalism. It has taken the place in people's hopes occupied by communism before that was discredited by Stalinism.

You seem obsessed by suicide bombers. Try to view the suicide bit as merely a means of delivering the weapon. Then concentrate on the weapons themselves, and you will see that the west has delivered far more destruction than it has received. The big difference is that our bombers go home to their families afterwards.

But as I said at the beginning, you seem to be a most unattractive character, who only wants to stir up discord at the expense of British minorities. I think you should withdraw, and concentrate on trying to understand your neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:16 AM

It's interesting, as people have stated above, how people read into things what they want, and then use that to twist.

1 in 10 DO means *EXACTLY* the same as 9 out of 10 DON'T.

I sat there this morning watching it on the BBC Breakfast News and over and over again I heard this phrase "13% of Muslims think the 7/7 bombers are martyrs!"

My head was saying "NO!!! ***87%*** think they are NOT!!!!!

I remember the IRA bombs going off in London. I heard the one the blew up the band in Regent's Park....but NEVER, for ONE second did I ever think that all the Irish were bad, or that religion was *purely* to blame for it.

I thought about the bombers, who'd been raised on HATE! Who had years and years of other people's HATE inside them! And when I recently saw one of those bombers talking to the daughter of one of is victims and heard him say "I just didn't think, I just didn't realise..." it made me realise that if you tell people long enough and hard enough to only have hate in their hearts, then that is what will happen.

PE...you have deliberately gone out of your way, imo, to once again try and stir up hatred. That is SO very, very wrong.

I'd suggest you start looking on the positive side and be thankful that 9 out of 10 muslims feel the same as you apparently do.

I'm sure though, that if you didn't have Islam to hate, you'd find something else.

Life is short my friend. Why not fill it with love and hope?

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST,skua
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:19 AM

Hmmmmmmm. A penguin egg. My lucky day.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:26 AM

OK - seeing as have gone to the trouble of detailing the points you wish me to address I will.

1 that the bombers being Muslims is significant.
It isn't. The fact that they are bombers is far more so. There are 2.4 billion Moslems in the world. A tiny fraction of them are bombers. The bombers have far more in common with Terrorists/Freedom Fighters from other religions than they have with the majority of Moslems.

2That you never get Palestinian Christians blowing themselves up.
I didn't know that Palestinian Christians were fighting for anything.

3That the one thing that unites these disparate murderers is their religion
Untrue. Many things unite them.

4 that their religion is not incidental, but fundemental, to their mindset.
It is more likely that violence is their fundematal mindset. The religion is incidental to them.

I have scrolled back. I did not cast any insults at all before you decided I was self-righteous, sanctimonious and priggish. Have a look yourself. If you insist that I did will please give me an example.

Try looking at the facts a bit more and you may even decide that most Moslems, like most people, are OK after all.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:08 AM

Paul Burke, you do have a point. The West, namely USA, has been interferring in the business of other countries since the end of World War II. With the absence of any other ideology, Islam has found a place. Despite my loathing for George Galloway, I do support him for his stand against the Iraq War and his willingness to take the fight to America itself. Yes, the West has killed more people than Muslim bombers. I don't dispute this. However, that does not mean that I have to like Islam. South and Central America has been devistated by American foreign policy and these are mainly Catholic, not Muslim, countries. So why do Muslims think that the West is waging a war against Islam? The war is not against Islam but an attempt to control resourses and markets and that is how it should be viewed. To turn it into a religous war is just plain silly. You might just as well say that the overthrow of Allende was an attack on the catholic church.

Dave the Gnome.
A small faction of Muslims may be small, but their supporters are many. Palestinian Christian are fighting for the same thing that Palestinian Muslims want-namely, a Palestinian homeland. There may be many things uniting these bombers, but the one thing that they have in common is that they are all Muslims. I know viilence is not unique to Muslims, but it does strike me as a most violent religion. It is because of their religion that they think they will go to heaven afterwards and fuck loads of virgins.

You are right about me being the first one to band about insults, for which I apologise.

Lizzie, I do like muslims. I know many and have known many for some time. It is not them I dislike, but their religion and what it makes them do. The behaviour of Muslims is unforgivable, whether it is the support for the killing of Rushdie or the suppression of the publication of the "Danish" cartoons in this country by intimidation.

What is there in Islam that I need to understand? I know that non-believers, when they die, go to hell, have their skins burnt off, and then ALLAH puts on another skin so it can be burnt off again-and this goes on for eternity. What a C**T! And people worship this creature. I tought the Old Testement God was bad enough.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:18 AM

Osama Bin Laden dies and goes to hell where he is greeted by the devil. The devil tells him, "Since you are such an evil son of a b1tch, you get a choice of what you want to do down here but whomever you relieve gets a second chance at life." So he takes Osama to the first room where there is a man digging a hole.

Osama thinks, "I'm not good at digging" so he asks, "What else do you have?"

The devil takes him to another room where there is a man chopping a tree down with endless trees in sight.

"I'm not good at this either, so what else do you have?"

He is taken to the next room where Bill Clinton is tied down with Monica giving him a blow job.

"Hey, this looks like it might really be fun " he says. "This is what I want"

"Are you sure?" asks the devil.

"Yes! This is definitely what I want." says Osama.























So the devil turns and says "OK, Monica, you can go now!"

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:20 AM

You never get Palestinian Christians blowing themselves up on a bus.

This is entirely false. There have been Palestinians Christians who have committed suicide bombings.

Many suicide bombers are not Muslims. Suicide bombing is the product of occupation of countries by foreign governments. It is not a product of religion.

Your blatant racism, on the other hand... what should we attribut that to?

Here's a little exercise for your apparently feeble brain... if one in ten people from your part of the world were racists, would we be able to extrapolate that being from your part of the world caused people to become racist?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:24 AM

Carol C, I take issue with you about many suicide bombers not being Muslim. If they did not feel that they were going to heaven afterwards, they would plant the bomb and then walk away from it.

What evidence to you have for my racisim and which race is the object of my racism?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:28 AM

Muslims are a race, now? I thought they were just another form of sheep.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:28 AM

Thanks for the apology, Penguin Egg. It was not necessary but appreciated all the same.

I still think you are wrong in your responses though. You say 'their supporters are many' but in the title of your own thread it is apparant that 90% do not support them. Of the 10% that consider the bombers martyrs there is no indication whether they believe martyrdom is a good or bad thing either.

I believe that Palestinian Christians are not fighting for a homeland becasue they believe they already have one. Palestine!

Islam is not the only thing that these bombers have in common. I tried to say before, not very sucessfuly, that the main thing sets them apart from the rest of the world is not that they are Moslems but that they are murderers.

Finaly it is not religion that has made them violent. No amount of religion can turn a man of peace into a man of hate. These men and women were violent to begin with. Give them an excuse, any excuse, to kill and they will. They are doing exactly the same thing that our leaders are doing. None of it is about religion or the war on terror or homelands. It is about money, power and greeed.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:30 AM

"The war is not against Islam but an attempt to control resourses and markets and that is how it should be viewed."

Absolutely correct! Religion is being cynically used as a means of emotionally manipulating people in this war. The USA used it to raise Mujahedin to fight the Russians in Afghanistan and to destabilize and eventually help break up the Soviet Union. Those same Mujahedin and their idealogical friends became the roots of the Taliban and Al Queda. Many Muslims were fooled by the same propaganda that has fooled westerners...fooled into thinking it's a religious war when it's really a war, as you say, to control resources and markets. Christianity and fear of Islam are likewise used to manipulate substantial numbers of people in the USA and other more developed countries.

Bombers are equally destructive whether they fly jets for the USA and face little chance of dying...or whether they commit suicide by strapping explosive to their bodes and blowing themselves up on buses. The resultant effect upon their victims is very similar...their victims are blown up or maimed...and their friends and families mourn and may become radicalized to join the conflict.

Religion is a red herring that has been cleverly used to manipulate populations in what is a war for strategic and very pragmatic concerns.

Does the Muslim faith lend itself to extremism more than some other faiths? Yes...probably...it appears to do so with some of its followers. No doubt about that. It does not with a many more of its followers, most of whom would rather live in peace and be left alone.

Religion itself is not the primary problem here. A ruthless campaign by western corporate interests to control oil, political jurisdictions, and commercial markets is the problem. That...and poverty itself in the more heavily affected regions.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:33 AM

Gee, I wonder why the oil-rich states don't educate their populations.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:38 AM

They don't,Guest, because a poorly educated population is easier to control and dominate. And...they'd rather not spend the money to do it.

As for that, why do you think so many Americans turn out to be shockingly ignorant about the world outside the USA or even about their own geography when questioned about it by press people who do surveys on such things? For the same basic reason...they don't receive a very good education in their schools. It's too onesided and USAculture-centric. It leaves out a lot of info that might open their minds. It encourages them to become mindless consuming units...little unthinking cogs in a big buy and sell machine.

Nothings aids any totalitarian system like feeding its people a steady diet of carefully controlled, edited, and slanted information, you know...and just leaving out the parts that might get them thinking differently.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:47 AM

Carol C, I take issue with you about many suicide bombers not being Muslim. If they did not feel that they were going to heaven afterwards, they would plant the bomb and then walk away from it.

You can take issue with it if you want to, but you cannot alter it because it is a fact. A reward in the afterlife is not the main motivation for people to commit suicide bombings. Hopelessness and dispair, and trying to make life better for their families and friends is the main motivator for suicide bombings. They don't walk away from it because holding the bomb when it goes off is a much more effective way to accomplish the objective than to just leave the bomb somewhere and walk off.

Your racism is eclipsed only by your ignorance (and feeble-mindedness).

What evidence to you have for my racisim and which race is the object of my racism?

Main Entry: (3)race
Function: noun

2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b ; a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics (the English race)

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

And the evidence is your blanket criticism of Islam, even when the statistics you have provided yourself show that the majority of Muslims do not do, or even approve of, the things you are citing as evidence of what is wrong with Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: nutty
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM

Can someone PLEASE put the correct title on this thread .....

9 OUT OF 10 BRITISH MUSLIMS ABHOR THE ACTIONS OF LONDON BOMBERS

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:53 AM

Revenge and a sense of powerlessness are the main motivations for such acts as suicide bombing in my opinion. You don't need religion in order to want revenge. You just need a grievance. The war is not about religion. It's about resources and markets. Religion is an excuse to fool people into fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:57 AM

I believe that Palestinian Christians are not fighting for a homeland becasue they believe they already have one. Palestine!

Dave, Palestinian Christians are fighting for a homeland... one that is free from military occupation. Just as the Palestinian Muslims are. I don't know where you get your information, but wherever it is, you are definitely not getting the full story.

Personally, I tend to suspect that the racist governments of the UK and the US (and a few other governments) are keeping people ignorant of the facts, because it is much easier to promote their racist agendas if people don't know the truth. And you can be sure that promoting racism against Muslims is the agenda they are trying to promote.

This thread (and your lack of awareness of what Christian Palestinians want) is a testament to their success.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:01 PM

Thanks, Carol, much appreciated. I guess they just don't get the publicity that the Palestinian Moslems get. Couldn't be anything to do with our wonderful free press could it? :-0

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:05 PM

If you want to see a well controlled and orchestrated media, Dave, live in the USA for a year or two and watch their mainstream TV and read their mainstream papers. Immerse yourself in the collective fantasy for a bit.

A bit like Germany in the late 30's, to my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:05 PM

CarolC, Islam contains many races, including those of the English race. Your definition did not mention religion, so I still do not understand why you think that this is about race and not about a body of ideas which I happen to dislike, in the same way I dislike christianity, communisim, and fascism. My feeble-mindedness is something that I have leant to live with.

I would like to know where you got your information that suicide bombers are not necessarily Muslims? You may be right, but I don't think you are. Islam has a long (and bloody) history of dying for your religion of which the suicide bombers would be the latest chapter for that. Christians would not do it because they believe that suicide is a sin. However, I do agree with you that desperation is the main determination, but it is Islam that gives it justification. That is why I do not like Islam.

I feel that I should say that I believe that most Muslims do not support terrorism and that the suicide bombers are an aberation. But 10% is a large minority. It has me worried.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:06 PM

Again, due to me feeble-mindedness, I forgot to mention my name.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:23 PM

I think suicide is normally considered a sin in the Muslim religion too. After all, like Christianity, the Muslim religion is based on rules of conduct written in the Old Testament (+ the life and teachings of Mohammed). The same basic moral codes were originally laid down for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam...in the Old Testament...by the same group of prophets. They all consider suicide a sin.

The fact that some Muslims have rationalized themselves around that somehow means just this: they're just as prone to rationalism and hypocrisy as the rest of us are! ;-)

They're just as able to reinterpret their own holy books as the rest of us are.

Nothing unusual about that.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:26 PM

Race can mean biological factors, and it can mean sociological factors, according to the definition I provided. Religion falls under the umbrella of sociological factors, so it is covered in the definition I provided.

The Tamil Tigers are made up of people of several religions as well as people who are secular and atheistic. The Tamil Tigers have been using suicide bombing as a strategy for decades...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/ltte.htm

And as I said before, there have been Christians who have committed suicide bombings in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:29 PM

Do you have any supporting 'documentation' for Christian Palestinians being suicide bombers?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:36 PM

My argument is against Islam as a set of ideals. CarolC, you are knitpicking. I clicked onto your link and it said nothing about the religion of the Tamils who carried out suicide bombings. My guess is that they are muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:46 PM

I guess I'd title the thread "Only 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs," but I don't really have a problem with Penguin Egg's title. But since we apparently have 90 percent that disagree with terrorism, it seems to me that means we have to stop making rash generalizations about Musilims, and we have to start treating them with the respect due to fellow human beings.
Maybe we need to have peace and respect and tolerance as our uppermost priorities. Maybe victory is not an option for either side, and we should start looking for other solutions. Is that subversive for me to say that?
-Joe-