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BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 20 Mar 02 - 07:54 AM Dear Victim of the IRA, which Irish political group has clean hands these days. Before you look to the US, well, Jack Lynch and Charlie Haughey funded the arming of the Provisional IRA, Fine Gael (an anti-Republican party which grew out of the pre-1921 loyalists) is the only party allied to Hitler which never underwent a change of structure and leadership after the war, we wont even go into the actions of supporters of the Loyalists... I always have felt that peace making begins with a mirror, not a teliscope. Cheersm'dears, Larry |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: SharonA Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:15 AM JudyR: No, I didn't get that. I thought perhaps she might have been from Zimbabwe. BTW, some Americans say "whilst". GUEST,flora: Maybe I should have been more specific. Some of the Americans I'm proud of are the ones referred to as "our founding fathers" who created the system of government that we have, where each citizen is represented in some way, where each citizen has the freedom to protest openly against what the government does and where each citizen has the power to influence what the government does. We have the power to change things for the better, thanks in large part to them. Call me overly idealistic if you want to; I live in the Philadelphia PA area – the "Cradle of Liberty" – and there are reminders, all over the place, of the vision held by the people who fought and died in the Revolutionary War AND the people who were "engineers" on the Underground Railroad. Not every "national group in the world" has that legacy of standing up to a government that denies humans their rights – and changing that government. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:32 PM Whilst we are narrowing things down to what nationality Janet is, don't forget that any stupid git can quickly deduce what expressions are commonly used by Brits merely by reading this forum regularly...and can then parrot them convincingly in print. In this manner the aforementioned fecking git can fool people and mislead them as to his or her origin. It's dastardly, but it's quite easy. "This bleedin' parrot is dead! E's knackered! If 'is feet weren't nailed to the perch, e'd be pushin' up dysies!!!" "E's not dead, e's pinin'!" (and so on) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: DonMeixner Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:50 PM I am amazed that this thread has such legs about it. The short answer: No, I am not. Don |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: DonMeixner Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:52 PM And why should I be? The country is beauty beyond imagination. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Big Mick Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:18 PM I'm with Don. No I am not. This country has allowed a guy like me to pursue the dreams and promote the values that I do. It has allowed me to become that which I am, for good or for bad. It is a work in progress, and in the relatively short time it has been in existence, it has provided much more that is good than bad. We have a long way to go, and like the teenager that we are, we make mistakes. But I am proud of the basic premises and values that we are founded on. I only hope we can keep moving forward, and make fewer mistakes as we go. Janet..........what country do you come from? Mick |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Coyote Breath Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:38 PM I've put some money into an IRA, did I do wrong? CB |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: JudyR Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:11 AM Yes, but they'd have to be as clever as you, Hawk! How did you know that is one of my all-time favorite scenes from anything?! (I meant to say "ANYTHING!" but I hate to shout!) Ahh, the woooonderful dead parrot scene! Sorry about that. Back to the discussion, and enjoying reading all the answers. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:25 AM If this stupid thread says one honest thing about Americans it is simply this : we really need every body to like us. Whether we think we are good guys, or good guys led by bad guys, or well-meaning over-priveledged dopes we really want your approval. Somehow, I don't think the citizens of the Roman Empire had that Willy Loman aspect to their make up. And you know what? That's probably a good thing for us, and for the rest of you guys, too. I'm outta here. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Mar 02 - 12:26 PM Ha! Good one, LEJ! You're quite right, the Romans didn't give a flying f**k whether anyone liked them or not, in fact I think they actually relished being universally feared and detested...as it furnished abundant proof of their prowess as conquerors. The fact is, we are living in a genuinely more merciful and enlightened age now, with a more international consciousness than in the past. The only problem is that we've got far more dangerous weapons than the Romans did, and the risks are a lot higher when a conflict arises. Maybe we should start a thread now saying "Are You Ashamed To Be A Mudcatter?" Just think of the controversy that could generate... :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST Date: 23 Mar 02 - 08:18 AM Janet from whence doth tho part? |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 23 Mar 02 - 10:18 AM I must appologise. Janet, it turns out is from Mars. A peaceful and unassuming planit, in spite of it's name and fictions like War of the Worlds... and as such, we have to wait, I believe two years for Mars to swing by in another orbit, to get Janet's responce. So, happy travels through the solar system, happy traveler, and say hello when you swing by again. Larry PS I was facinated by the reports of underground water on your planit, perhaps on your next visit you can tell us more about that! |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:10 PM Mars is definitely an interesting place, and there are persistent rumours of various ruins there, indicating at least the former presence of an advanced civilization. I'm not speaking of the old "canals" BTW, but of more recent discoveries. This actually deserves a thread of its own... - LH |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: CarolC Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:31 PM After reading this post in the "see you in Iraq" thread (wait a minute for it to load to the correct post), I have to admit that right now, I do feel a little ashamed to be an American. With friends like us, who needs enemies, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,Victim of IRA Date: 25 Mar 02 - 06:24 PM To see what Irish Republican terrorists used financial support to do go to this link http://www.upmj.co.uk/IRAvictimsPhotos1.htm , try the rest of the site and count the dead children, divide the total into how much you gave to the IRA/SF etc to calculate the amount you contributed to their murder. Noraid gives money to the families of terrorists, money collected from Americans,this allows the terrorist to devote time to murdering people instead of working.
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Irish sergeant Date: 25 Mar 02 - 08:18 PM Victim; I was unaware of the actual use of NorAid monies. Thank you for clarifying that. I am rather careful what I give to which means anything that has even a hint of politics (USof A or otherwise) gets no play. But again as states your posts have clarified quite a bit for me. The way I see the shame thing is I calculate what I did, nobody else's actions just mine. If I can look myself in the mirror then my actions can't have been too heinous. Of course that only works if you have a concience which probably lets most politicians out. :~) Have a great night, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Hippie Chick Date: 25 Mar 02 - 09:05 PM Making a difference on an individual level matters. It matters because a lot of individuals make a group, an organization, a movement. If each American, each Brit, Canadian, Irishman, Scots, each citizen of the planet gives back to the community in time or $$$ even a small portion of what it cost to bring them to adulthood, this world would be a better place. No I didn't vote for W. I work to be kind and honest with everyone who crosses my path, no matter what their views may be. I'm not perfect, I screw up a lot, but I'm here, doing my best. What about you? HC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,Victim of IRA Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:49 AM Hippie chick, I protected my country, now in a wheelchair, is that enough? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:23 AM My dear Guest VOI, I am truely sorry for your injuries, and have called again and again for a truth and reconcilliation process. I will remind you, albeit gently, that Carol Anne Kelly, Julie Livingston, and some dozens of children murdered outright by British soldiers, will have to be spoken for in the process. The sad fact is war is an eliment of human evolution which will make us all exitinct should we not evolve beyond it. Part of the evololution process is to heal, not the loss of your mobility, but to get beyond anger and hatred. My mothers people where murdered, 1 out of three of their kind in Europe, and if I carried that real anger, I could not function. We, by the way, are discriminated in Ireland today, by my father's people, but evolution takes the kind of healing that happens in my family. Don't keep your soul in that chair with you. embrace those who you have the most reason to hate and that chair will become a vehical to carry you into a new Ireland. Easy for me to say? Every holiday I count the empty chairs which should be filled with Roma (Gypsies) and Jews in my mother's family, who are now white ash on the fields around Auswitz. Peace begins with a mirror, not a teliscope. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Big Mick Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:23 AM So..........Victim........I am sure you are just as angry at the Red Hand folks that have killed, maimed, and injured so many? And I am sure that you are just as angry at the folks throwing fire bombs at little girls going to school? I am not sure you are anything other than a flamer. If I am wrong, then accept my apolgies, but I don't think I am. You can PM me or email me at mlane@accn.org to convince me that I am wrong. And if you do so, I will happily say so here, and apologize. But I served my country, and have my own scars. I know others that did as well. Never met one that wanted to use it to make the kind of point you are trying to make. It is my opinion that it is much more likely that you are just a flamer trying to make your point with this crap because you can't win you arguments with logic. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:53 AM Hi Mick, assume the best in folks. Sending you a handshake, arm arcoss the shoulders, and welcome home, Mick, Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: PeteBoom Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:31 PM Any taig will do.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,RonD6423@cs.com Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:01 PM NO! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:34 PM Dear PeteBoom... Yaba daba do?,br> Dear Janet... (for when Mars comes close again on its orbit and we can hear from you again...) This was sent to me, and I add it, to show there is a diversity of opinion in our nation (on THIS planit...) ----- Original Message ----- From: "mikealewitz" > > > Please Post and Distribute: > > > LaBOR aRT & MuRAL PRoJECT > AGITPROP NEWS: 3.20.2 > > > In this issue: > > Artists After September 11 > > By Mike Alewitz > > > > > > The following article appeared in the March 2002 issue of 'Mass Dissent,' the > newsletter of the Massachusetts chapter of the National Lawyers Guild. > > _______________________________ > > > If we were to write the truth about recent U. S. history, it might read something > like this: > > The spoiled son of the former head of the secret police, having failed at > everything else in life, runs for U. S. President. Since it appears he might not > win, his brother, the governor of a large state, throws a bunch of votes his way > by disenfranchising thousands of African- American voters. The Supreme Court, > pals of his dad, put their stamp of approval on the process. The politicians of > both political parties agree that we must put this all behind us for the good of > the country. > > The President assembles a cabinet that includes a general who got his start by > covering up the Mai Lai Massacre in Vietnam. His Attorney General is so hated in > his old Senatorial district that he actually lost his last election to a corpse. (He > is now engaged in a campaign to drape the breasts on statuary in Government > buildings.) > > When the new gang gets to Washington, they immediately reward themselves and > their rich pals with a trillion dollars in stolen tax money. They then set about the > task of the serious long-term plunder of the country. > > They were all having a swell time when two jet airliners slam into the symbol of > US financial power - World Trade Center - and the symbol of military power, the > Pentagon. Fearing attack, the President immediately took off for parts unknown > - a reprisal of his role during the Vietnam War (which would have been fine - if > done out of principal instead of cowardice.) > > The Mayor of New York actually stayed in town and showed up at the site of the > disaster, therefore he was immediately proclaimed a hero. Prior to this he was > mostly known for supporting police violence, harassing the poor and homeless > and chasing artists off the steps of the Metropolitan Museum. He proceeded to > see if he could have himself declared mayor again. > > The hijackers were apparently Arab. Though there was no declaration, war was > immediately declared on Afghanistan - although none of the hijackers were > Afghani. Evil was denounced. Howdy Doody strode the fields of Crawford, Texas > threatening to git the varmints. AFL-CIO officials promptly stepped forward to > pledge allegiance in the employer's mission for mutual slaughter of the working > class. The most advanced military machine in the world then proceeded to bomb > the most backward - spending billions of dollars to turn rubble into finer rubble. > Heroes again. > > The purpose of this was to kill a terrorist originally promoted by the U.S. But, > after a few weeks that was all forgotten. Like the anthrax scare. Like the > pipeline that the oil companies wanted to build across Afghanistan if they could > only get a stable government in place. > > Having proven their prowess on the field of battle, the politicians are now > bickering over what country should be the next target. Here at home they are > celebrating this new victory for freedom with the establishment of military > tribunals and a discussion of the benefits of torture. . . > > You get the idea. I'm only scratching the surface here. I could go on. > > * * * > > What has all this got to do with art and artists? Everything. We package and sell > the lies. When they drag out the talking heads to convince you to support US > war aims, we operate the cameras, create the graphics, design the lighting, > handle the sound, write and play the background music, pull out the safari jacket, > put on the make-up and otherwise make them appear sincere. > > When you see the same twenty Palestinians purportedly dancing in celebration of > the NY disaster, it was edited and put together by video artists all trained in our > art schools. We create the billboards and posters, the snappy army ads and the > tearful ground zero photographs. > > When the patriotic extravaganzas are performed, we are the choreographers, > dancers, prop and costume makers that appeal so effectively to your emotions. > > The entertainment industry is the second largest export industry of the US. The > first is war materials. In a sense, they both do the same thing. We make the > world safe for Enron. > > * * * > > > Art is a magical process - and you don't see it illustrated any more effectively > than when US artists transform war into play. We make the real become unreal, > and the unreal become real. We can transform the horror of war into a video > game. If you're good at it they will pay you millions of dollars - sometimes > hundreds of millions. > > Of course most artists don't make much money at all. We are cultural workers > struggling to survive. Like workers in the armaments or chemical or nuclear > industries, you block out the ultimate consequences of your labor in order to > survive. > > But while artists are forced to do the employers bidding during the eight or ten > or twelve hours, the rest of the time is ours. We can choose to use our skills to > fight for peace and justice - to reach across borders or rip the veil off the > American system of racist injustice. > > * * * > > A living art challenges it's audience to look at the world in new ways: to be > critical; to look at things from all points of view. It is an active process between > the viewer and the author. Revolutionary politics requires the same. That is one > of the reasons there has been a historical alliance of artists with the labor > movement. > > Over the past fifteen years the Labor Art & Mural Project (LaMP) has traveled > throughout the US and the world to support working-class struggles for social > and economic justice. We have created murals that are projects not of > governments but from workers to workers. Wherever we have gone we have > been welcomed warmly by those who understand that there is a difference > between the American people and the US government. Other groups have > created puppets for demonstrations, held hip-hop concerts for global justice, > conducted poetry readings and used their art in a myriad of ways. It's all part of > an organic process of building international solidarity. > > In recent years the American labor movement has begun to recognize and reach > out to immigrant workers. We have also made strides in building unity with our > fellow workers in Mexico, Central and South America. The tragic events of > September 11 provide an opportunity to extend similar solidarity to the workers > of the Middle-East. Whenever given the opportunity, these workers have jumped > at the chance to fight for their unions and extend the struggle for democratic > rights. We can and must work together in solidarity. > > As the politicians rush to create a permanent war, we artists have a special > responsibility. Never has there been such an overwhelming deluge of lies. Those > who wish to continue the bloodbath are a small minority. The great majority of > the earth's working people have demonstrated that they favor peace and > solidarity. We can use our art to give expression to that vision. We can be a > voice for those who are voiceless. We can use our songs, poems, theater and > paint to illuminate a future where human needs come before profits. Amidst the > cries for blood we must raise a voice of peace and justice. > > > ______________________________ > > Mike Alewitz is a mural painter working in the US and internationally. He is the > Artistic Director of the Labor Art & Mural Project. He teaches mural painting at > Central CT State University. > > _______________________________ > > > > MIKE ALEWITZ > LaBOR aRT & MuRAL PRoJECT > Department of Art > Central Connecticut State University |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:24 PM Mick, do you consider you served your country? by doing so do you think you paid back a little to your country in the context of hippiechicks posting? I feel that I have done and I am proud of that,my post was not meant to be a moan but an honest answer to "What about you?". I am not bitter,far from it as it would make the work I done worthless I make no distinction between both factions they are scum. US troops are in Afghanistan are fighting people of the same ilk and people are being asked not to support Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, what I ask is for people to stop supporting Irish terrorists on any side. The bombs thrown at the school girls were not fire bombs,they were blast bombs and the people who threw them have nothing to offer the world except pain. Do you know people have taken to throwing golf balls and 1" nuts at school children republicans throw them at protestant children and loyalists at catholic, are people who are prepared to do that worthy of any support? Why fund this kind of terrorism? Casualties of war is not appliable to N.I. because the majority of people do not support either side, they simply want peace. Do you think in funding either side people are doing law abiding people in N.I. any favours? All it does is prolong the agony, could the saying your killing us with kindness be applied here? Did you go to the site I suggested(www.upmj.co.uk) it give a protestant point of view but more importantly when looked at along with a pro republican site it shows that innocent people from both sides have been killed. Can I ask mick do you honestly understand the finite details of the "troubles in N.I." do you know of the double standards on both sides? How do you feel about the IRA being hand in hand with PLO, being supplied with arms and training from Lybia, their involvement with FARC, Fidel Castro all enemies of your country. Do you think that supporting them is patriotic? When Sept 11 happened the emergency services were given full public support and thanks, when the emergency services in N.I. have to do their job they get stoned, beatings and verbal abuse, when your firemen save lives our firemen get beatup for their efforts when they are trying to put out fires. I had to protect a firecrew who were trying to save a building after the IRA bombed it were is the logic in that. I am not ashamed of what I posted, what happened to me was the result of such madness that is supported and funded by some Americans, there are more people who support the IRA in America than in Ireland were is the logic in that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:21 PM Well, not to be argumentative, there are 55 milion Irish in the US and what 2.4 2.5 in Ireland today? But that isn't the point, as MI 6 defector Frank Holroid always said, the war in Ireland had nothing to do with Ireland, it was a war created by Britain for the interest of NATO. I greave comepletely for the victems on all sides, but both sides where tricked into a war against their interests by the US government and the British Government, for the benifit of guarding the Scapa flow from the Soviet fleat, why do you think the bad guys are now the loyalists, what has changed? No more USSR and no more Irish nuetrality after NATO used Irish airbases for the gulf war. Noraid didn't sponcor the war, they were like all the rest, dupes of NATO, NATO not NORAID was the sponsor of the war, it was just another cold war battle. Lets talk peace now, I don't care if the Afghanys and the IRA are of the same ilk in your view, I am more concerned that the conditions which lead to these evils are brought about by fundimentalist capitalism. Slan, Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:22 PM PS I want to be clear that when I say I don't care etc... not that I don't care about your point of view, I just don't think that is the issue, the wars are the side show. The real story does not make the news. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,Victim of IRA Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:18 PM Larry,tricked come on, in WW2 the IRA were spying for the Germans fact,the Irish government would not allow its greatest ally America to use its ports because they thought they could bargain them for a united Ireland. The Irish government took a gamble and lost, but thank god many Irish people came to Britans help and recognised the threat that Hitler posed. OH wait your joking..... arent you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Musgrave Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:51 AM Janet, I agree with whoever said, "I'm neither ashamed nor proud to be an American." It's just not productive to talk about Americans feeling responsible for what their government does. What is most important -- and that "saving civilization" guy should take heed of this --is mother earth, because we belong to her, not the other way around. Ignorant, and arrogant, people like George Bush and Dick Cheney don't realize this. That's why they play on the short-sighted economic fears of the American people to justify their anti-mother nature policies. "Civilization" must take a backseat to mother nature, NOT the other way around, and this will happen the easy way, or the hard way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:57 AM InOBU, it damages your case when you make such an obviously flawed statement as But that isn't the point, as MI 6 defector Frank Holroid always said, the war in Ireland had nothing to do with Ireland, it was a war created by Britain for the interest of NATO. Come on! The fricking thing has been continuous since at least Cromwell's time! You can make some kind of argument for Britain and NATO, but I think most people in Northern Ireland, and the British as well, are heartily sick of the troubles and want them to end. You've got a full compliment of thugs and murderers on both sides who are more than willing to put innocent people in the crossfire for the good of Ireland, and playing the game of "our thugs aren't as responsible" is hard to swallow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 27 Mar 02 - 07:09 AM A couple of blaitant historical lies, not on the part of the speakers here, but their teachers. The IRA began the war with Hitler in Spain. The Blue shirts, who fought with Franco, the Irish nazis, are in fact, the Fin Gael party, who were loyalist before 21. Lonsome, it has never been the same war generation to generation. History moves on the reasons for fighting evolve. The vast majority of IRA volunteers joined the British Army and fought in British uniform through WII, one of them becoming the highest decorated British Squaddy. Have to run to do a school concert. ... I'll get back to this later. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Mrrzy Date: 27 Mar 02 - 09:03 AM Continued here... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: DougR Date: 28 Mar 02 - 12:44 AM I'm ashamed so many citizens of the U.S are ashamed to be Americans. :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 28 Mar 02 - 10:36 PM This was once a requirement for memorization/recitation in school government classes, mine included. I still believe it, follow it, defend it!
Sincerely,
"I believe in the United States of America as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed, a democracy in a republic, a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.
"I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies."
The American Creed by William Tyler Page |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,Mike Strobel Date: 29 Mar 02 - 01:27 PM Dear Janet, Yes, I am proud to be a citizen of the United States. Please understand the majority ( if not all of us ) have no say in which country we are born and/or reared in. However, I am proud that I live in a country where I can Voice and Demonstrate my opinions and feelings without repercussion. Can they do that around the world ? We are not the perfect nation/goverment by any means and many of us voice opinions to the contrary of the general publics view, however , we have the FREEDOM to make choices, that so many cannot. " It's so easy to cast blame and so hard to build the bridge ! " Mike Strobel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST Date: 29 Mar 02 - 03:18 PM Hello Janet. Hello. Where are you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Mar 02 - 03:21 PM Gargoyle - Your sentiments are admirable...and they are echoed in the very similar loyalty oaths of any number of states, past and present...from the United Kingdom, to Nazi Germany, to Imperial Rome, to Napoleonic France, to ancient Athens, to the Byzantine Empire, to Sparta, to the Japanese Empire, and on and on and on... Such statements are often (if not always) used to cover over a multitude of sins and self-serving hypocrisies, rather like a nice coat of icing on a worm-ridden, stale old cake. They are also used to stir naive young people into offering up their lives into someone else's hand and serving as his tools of war, to slaughter some other group of people with a different loyalty oath. It all sounds so glorious though... "I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies." So, if you believe that...then what will you do when the high officials and commanders of your own government agencies such as the FBI, the CIA and the Joint Chiefs of Staff are in truth the direst enemies of your country and your democracy and your ancestral freedoms? What then will you do? How then will you obey your American Creed? No one was more loyal or more courageous in battle than the elite divisions of the SS, but they were still wrong...from the point of view of the general advancement of humanity on this planet. They had very bad leadership, and they were completely misled by it. Patriots, one and all! If they had won, the history books would now be calling them heroes... I look sceptically on loyalty oaths. I know what they are designed to do...rob people of independent thought and judgement, and turn them into obedient killers. A good and moral cause needs no loyalty oath to motivate people in its defense. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,DJ Date: 30 Mar 02 - 02:38 AM define ashamed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 02 - 07:27 PM how did the concert go Larry what is the rest of your story |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 30 Mar 02 - 10:26 PM Good day, Ocean Hill Brownsville public school, kids were great, did Amadou Diallo and a song I wrote about the Underground Railroad, which led to a big discussion of the underground railroad and abolitionists. Nice day. Thanks for asking. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST Date: 13 Apr 02 - 02:13 AM I am right PROUD to be an American and to say the pledge of allegence.
However, it appears many "stalwarts of the MudCat" like CatsPaw56 are embarrassed and should move to Canada land of the quivering quakers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: DMcG Date: 13 Apr 02 - 04:38 AM As someone from the UK, I am hardly entitled to comment in this thread. However, the discussion about loyalty oaths made me immediately think of Wilfred Owen's World War I poems and in particular:
If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace (Trans: It is a great and glorious thing to die for one's country)
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 13 Apr 02 - 09:17 AM Canada land of Quakers? No way mate, most Quakers are in Kenya, Africa having more Quakes than any other continent. As to quivering, well, faced with jail, death, torture for not taking a Kings commission in the Army, George Fox said to an Engish judge, "Some day even you will Quake before your God..." to which the Judge asked, "and do YOU quake sir?" Hence Quakers. So, it is actualy a description of courage before the cowards who oppress the good, thanks for them complement, CHeers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American? From: artbrooks Date: 13 Apr 02 - 10:23 AM GUEST was busy this morning at about 2:00 Mudcat time, reviving a number of threads that had died well earned deaths. Let it die again. |