Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?

Subject: Is it permissible to change
From: MARINER
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 10:45 AM

I was wondering if it was permissible or even ethical to change a word in an old song? .For instance, I am learning a song where the captain of a ship is described as a Mexican when in fact he was Norwegian. The ship was the "Mexico" (from Songs of the Wexford Coast). This is a well known fact,although the song has always been sung as the captain being Mexican . I met his great grandson a few months ago and had the nationality confirmed .

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 10:49 AM

Folk process Mariner.

It's not just permissible, it's almost cumpulsory, especially if done to correct an error.

My opinion, for what it's worth.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 10:57 AM

Damn. I'm going to have to agree with Don again.

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:08 AM

Not only isn't it ethical, but such ill-advised tampering has nothing to do with folk process - which, if analagous of Natural Selection (though I have my doubts), makes such tampering akin to Genetic Modification. In their natural context such changes were part and parcel of the life of a song, but now there're collected, stuffed, stamped, filed and indexed we really ought to treat them with all due respect and humility. It's the original error that's part of the folk process, the correction of that error is contrary to the tradition that gave us such songs.

That wouldn't be the same Mexico that was lost off Lancashire on the 9th December 1886 would it? Be nice to see the song anyway.

S O'P for Purist

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: Midchuck
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:13 AM

In an honest-to-God oral tradition "folk" song, it is, as pointed out above, not only permissible but nearly compulsory.

If it's a song of known authorship, and the author is dead, and the song's gone into public domain, probably no one's going to complain.

If the song is of known authorship, and still under copyright, you'd better get permission from the author and/or copyright owner.

One of the things that bug me about "Rise Up Singing" is their love of changing lyrics to make them more politically correct, without worrying about permission.

Peter

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:16 AM

If nothing else connects with the misattribution, I'd say just correct it.

If the song takes off into an elaborate description of the captain's black handlebar moustache and sombrero, maybe making him a Norwegian might not work so well.

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: ClaireBear
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:21 AM

I do it, when it wants doing -- after all, I'm a folk...

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:33 AM

But no horses are permitted to make such changes!

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:47 AM

The folk police will always complain!!

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:48 AM

You bet it's permissible. You don't have to get a permit or even pay a tax. I do it all the time.

In your case, it sounds like you are changing a word back to what it was in the first place, so you are actually being noble.

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 12:17 PM

In which case, thank Christ for The Folk Police!

One minute you're all raging about the sanctity of the 1954 Definition and the next your rubbishing the very songs you have elected to be custodians of. What a truly pityful of affairs. Still, I shall redouble mine own efforts with respect of Vigilance and Pedantry in such matters and make sure the next time I hear someone singing a Traditional Folk Song they can quote chapter and verse on its provenance.

Be warned, the Volkspolizei are listening in!

Seriously, do what you want, but to do so in the name of The Tradition or the Folk Process is, to borrow one of Richard's words, asinine.

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 12:41 PM

I might change a song for all kinds of reasons, mostly to do with memory slips or to help my tongue get round the words - but probably not in order to get facts right that the song has got wrong.

I rather like the way folk songs screw up history sometimes - "Santy Anna won the day" for example.

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: IanC
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM

My answer

NO!!! it's not permissable

it's permissible

;-)

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:38 PM

LMAO......If you went around correcting the "facts" in most "folk" songs, trad or otherwise, many of them would completely dissolve into NOTHINGNESS. Almost every disaster song would be gone because a very few bear any actual resemblance to the event they supposedly are describing.


Spaw

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:41 PM

it is permissible but if youdo it on www.session .org beawre of the consequences

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:33 PM

To quote again my own inlay to my own record: "All these songs are traditional; but I suspect every one will have been more or less consciously modified from original sources in the course of making them my own."

It's what we do, surely...

{One example which occurs to me, not from my own singing ~~ the Coppers' Warlike Seamen has as its second line "I'll tell you of a fight my boys on board the Nottingham". But in a later verse we find "They asked from whence we came; Our answer was from Liverpool and London was our name". So the name of the ship has changed in the middle of the song. I wonder if the Coppers ever noticed; surely they must have done, but that's the way it is in The Book, presumably. I know of at least one group who change that line to "And Nottingham was our name"; which doesn't scan quite so easily. I usually keep the Coppers' words when I sing that one, as I find it flows better; but I can see the case for the alteration. I think, anyhow, that it's a great song, either way & whatever...}

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:34 PM

That's utter bollocks Sweeney, and only shows that you know little about how evolution works.

1 Change
2 Test
3 If OK keep
4 Else reject
5 Endif
6 Goto 1

So the answer to Mariner's conundrum is simple. You do line 1, everyone else does lines 2 to 5, then the loop starts again.
Chane the song and see what happens.

Stuffed and stamped? In their natural context? What the hell are you on about?

As for the 1954 definition, I didn't read that tedious thread and I don't like horses, especially of the hobby variety.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

Ah c'mon MARINER! Last week you couldn't remember the crews names, this week you think the skipper had a suntan - what next? The cabin boy was a girl?!

More seriously, after The HanToon incident the other day, Phil remarked that "that was the best recovery I've heard in a long time!" i.e. you used the "mistake" to give yet more life to the story. No better man.

At least the line makes it easy to substitute "was Norwegian" instead of "was a Mexican". Go for it, of course. If anyone asks, tell them the story.

Subject: RE: Is it permissable
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:23 PM

Stuffed and stamped? In their natural context? What the hell are you on about?

The Old Songs evolved in a societal context very different from our own which we might think of as The Tradition. This was their natural habitat in which they thrived until doomed to inevitable extinction whereupon the remnants were collected by way taxidermy (stuffed) subjected to an appropriate taxonomy (stamped) which gave rise to The Revival. Whilst in both academic & amateur circles the stuffing & the stamping continues, with respect of The Old Songs, The Revival is most certainly not The Tradition and Revival Singers should be respectful of the old traditional songs they sing. Change the song and it becomes something else entirely.

Otherwise, keep it civil, eh, Paul?

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old s
From: GUEST,Paul Slade
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:25 PM

Paul Burke's right. Suibhne Astray isn't.

Besides, it's not as if you're destroying the old version, is it? Anyone who wants to retain him as a Mexican is still perfectly free to do so.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:31 PM

It's permissible, but it may not be accurate! All the crew of the ship Mexico would likely be termed 'Mexicans,' Just as the crew of the Bellerophon were called 'Billy Ruffians.'
Just a thought. And a chance to do an interesting intro.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: MARINER
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:55 PM

Thanks folks, from now on I will give Captain Erickson his proper nationality .To answer Suibhne Astray it wasn't the Mexico he referred to .This Mexico was lost on the Keeraghs Rocks off the Wexford coast on the 20th of February 1914. I think the song also has her port of departure wrong as well. The song says she came from Lithuania, bound for Liverpool but I think she came from the States
Thank you Guest above. On reflection I think it was a fairly good recovery ,but I didn't think so at the time !.However, I didn't feel so bad when some other singers really cocked it up two days after .Guess it was that Feakle beer.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 04:11 PM

A while back, I wanted to sing Jamaica Farewell with a class of 7/8 yr olds. Knowing kids, I knew that the opening line " Far away where the nights are gay" would cause some silliness, and so I simply altered the line to " Far away where the warm winds play". Interestingly, after a few weeks of practicing the song, one kid happened to look at my copy of the original lyrics and - as predicted - started making a big deal about the word "gay" .

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 05:13 PM

Good for you, Tunesmith.

That way, the entire class got to enjoy the song, without one silly student disrupting everything.

I still like to sing that old favorite while I strum my guitar.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,Seonaid
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 05:46 PM

Been known to change *every* word in an old song --
Of course, that was in translations... ;o)

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: skipy
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

Yes! in the song "Edward Hollander" (flying Cloud)I refuse to sing "we hauled those niggers up on deck" I sing "we hauled those negroes up on deck".
It has the same value in the song & should not offend.
Skipy - who has not had time to read the thread, but saw the title & posted, so if it has already been covered - sorry.
Too busy with prep. for white horse folk fest to do anything really!

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:12 PM

As a singer of mostly "traditional" songs, I'm of several minds on this age old question. By the way, being of "several minds" comes easier with age ... try it some time.

Here's where I allow myself to change a word in an old song:

1: the word is so obscure that no understanding would happen, but I try to take care of that problem in the song introduction.
2. The word is so blatently insulting ... but I usually just caution the audience befor I sing it.
3. I forget the real word, then I politely excuse MYSELF and pass the mistake off to "the folk process"!

CHEERS, bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:15 PM

The previous post was by me, deckman, who keeps becoming absent of my cookie for some weird reason! Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:26 PM

As most traditional songs, at least in the English Language traditions, are story based, then the most important thing is to tell the story as effectively as you can. If that involves altering some words for whatever reason then I can't see any harm in it as long as the essential character of the song is retained.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:31 PM

The nice thing is that if your change(s) make the song worse, they'll probably be forgotten. That's the part of the folk process people seem to forget.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:56 PM

I don't believe that deliberate change in a situation where the tradition is dead (cat among pigeons maybe) is part of any folk process, but there is nothing wrong with changing words in old songs; traditional singers did it constantly and deliberately, Sam Larner, Walter Pardon, Joe Heaney... have all spoken about doing it, in Walter's case, at great length, so what we have been handed down is the changed article.
Tootler's posting is dean on the mark IMO
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Young Buchan
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:17 PM

William Kinmber apparently used to tell his pupils 'These are the notes you play, AND YOU DON'T PLAY ANY OTHERS!' Fortunately he wasn't a singer so he won't come back to haunt you for your cavalier attitude. Musicians on the other hand had better watch out....

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:44 PM

Oh Dear! I have been known to vary tunes. I was told it was OK as it was simply a variant. Mind quite often my variants are the result of my fingers refusing to do as they are told. They get quite wayward sometimes, especially with new tunes [g]

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:50 PM

"Take a sad song and make it better" (the Beatles)...

Shoot, if it's okay fir sad songs then it's goota be okay for other songs...

Go fir it!!!

B~

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Genie
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 08:20 PM

[['These are the notes you play, AND YOU DON'T PLAY ANY OTHERS!']]
Of course, that's not saying anything about the ORDER in which you play them ... ; D

I'm with Midchuck and Deckman:

If the "folk process" had been eschewed by our ancestors, we wouldn't have 17+ versions of Raggle Taggle Gypsies/Blackjack Davy/Whistling Gypsy/Gypsy Rover (etc.) How boring would that be?

If the song's author is known, and still under copyright, you'd better get permission from the author and/or copyright owner. (I'd add that if you deliberately change a song of known authorship, even if the author is dead, the respectful thing to do would be to ACKNOWLEDGE that you've altered the original work (especially if you've put the song on a CD or in a songbook). Otherwise, you're falsely attributing words or melody to the author.
I think this is especially important if your "revision" loses some of the poetry of the original work or if you've given that work the "Rise Up Singing" or "Unitarian Hymnal" "politically correct" treatment.

"Rise Up Singing's" habit of changing lyrics to make them more politically correct or "new-age-y" without even acknowledging the changes really annoys me too.


But as Deckman says, if a word or words in an old song are so archaic or regional that they wouldn't be understood or if they are terms that would be very offensive today, I see no problem with adapting them.   It's not always possible to explain the historical context (e.g., that "darkie" was once "the politically correct term") but I would hate to throw out all the American songs of the early 19th C. because some of their original language might be offensive today. Similarly, I don't see a problem with taking a Robert Burns song and changing a few Scots dialect words to words that American audiences would understand, especially if it's a sing-along.   

But when I pass the lyrics to a song on to other people (e.g., on the internet or by printing a lyric sheet), I try as best I can to find and use the original, accurate lyrics (if such a thing can be determined), rather than just printing them out from my faulty memory or changing them arbitrarily on my own.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 08:24 PM

Dick - errr...session.org don't give a toss about "songs".. all they care about is tunes... :)_

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: John P
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:18 PM

Wow, opinions all over the map. For myself, I'm glad that no one but me gets to make up rules about how or why I play any piece of music. If something works better for me, I change it, lyrics or melody. I don't care if anyone considers it a Folk Process change or a ghastly gaffe, those sorts of rules are for definitions and academia, not for actually playing music. I play almost entirely traditional folk music interspersed with medieval music and I don't pay any attention at all to historical accuracy or authenticity. As I say, caring about that is musicology, not music.

If I had to make a decision on the matter, I'd disagree with Jim Carroll and say that the folk process never died. It just changed with the times, the same way that traditional music has always done. I don't care if I learn a tune from a remote villager or from YouTube, I still learn the tune and I still feel free to do anything I want with it, and I still pass it on, either by teaching to a youngster or by putting out a CD. I don't see any incongruity.

Suibhne Ashtray seems to forget that the 1954 definition is about musicology. Deciding how to play a song is about playing music. There's a big difference between the two. I see no inconsistency in wanting a firm definition of a musical genre or folk process for the purpose of talking about said genre and process, and also not thinking about that at all while deciding what to play and how to play it.

Aren't we lucky the Folk Police don't actually have any authority over us?

John

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:29 PM

John P ... well said!

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:00 AM

One of the sayings that passed down in our family from our Irish great-great-grandmother was "Have what you will - and pay for it". It's a great saying, meaning, to us, do what the devil you want to - and take the consequences.

As musicians we have total freedom to play or sing whatever we wish to play or sing, in any key style or manner we choose - and change any lyrics we want, to suit. And, of course, we take the consequences of that, which is part of the responsibility for having done what we've done. However, the freedom to do it in the first place is something we should cherish.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:52 AM

Who are you going to obtain permission from?

There's a curious (and, I suspect deliberate and mischievous) misapprehension here - that somewhere there are 'Guardians of Tradition' or (dare I invoke them?) 'Folk Police' who will come down hard on, and punish, anyone who departs from certain inviolable rules. This is, of course, rubbish!

A singer must make his/her own aesthetic choices - and then Will Fly's inherited family saying comes into play, i.e. "Have what you will - and pay for it".

Thanks, Will - that's a very useful phrase!

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:52 AM

If it improves the song (Accuracy/scansion/rhyme) then do it.
If it doesn't, then why do it?

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:07 AM

The only branch of the "Folk Police" that matter are otherwise known as the audience. They are also judge and jury. Somehow, I don't think you'll hang for changing Mexican to Norwegian.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:13 AM

My argument is simple enough - the Traditional Songs aren't ours to mess with. That the Traditional Singers messed with them is an essential part of their character, composition & diversification; this is how such songs lived and breathed in their natural habitat. For Revival Singers to do so, however, strikes me as dubious practise - and to do so in the name of The Folk Process is to display a decided ignorance of the actual nature of Traditional Song (much less The Folk Process) and a decided lack of respect to boot.

The most important thing any Revival Singer of Traditional Songs can do, therefore, is by way of research & sourcing, not changing the songs to suit their purposes. The interpretation of a song is a different matter entirely, but for a Revival singer to remake a Traditional Song in the name of the Folk Process is ingenuine and bogus (and accounts for the fact that as far as Traditional Song is concerned I only ever listen to Traditional Singers).

I take Will's point about about musical freedom; no one cherishes this more than I, but with respect of Traditional Songs we are free to sing them, somewhat less so to change them. How we choose to sing them is a different matter entirely, but that doesn't effect the integrity of the thing. That said, I've lost count of floor singers who give unaccompanied renderings of (say) While Game Keepers Lie Sleeping which retain June Tabor's ghastly syncopations and mannerisms which are a whole world away from the laid back natural crooning of Bob Roberts. Too often, I fear, there is a notion that Revival Singers are somehow improving upon things, with Traditional Singers relegated to the status of source singer rather than noble Tradition Bearers to be revered and respected.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old s
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:20 AM

Skipy said: "Yes! in the song "Edward Hollander" (flying Cloud)I refuse to sing "we hauled those niggers up on deck" I sing "we hauled those negroes up on deck".
"It has the same value in the song & should not offend."

Actually, I'm not sure it does have the same value in the song. The original word has a stronger percussive force, and vividly conveys the narrator's contempt in a way that "negroes" does not. The danger is that sanitising the song allows people to avoid the ugly truth its original wording conveys, and hence fall into a cosy illusion. Better to confront them with the unvarnished facts and let that be proof of how vile the old attitudes were.

I'm always a bit uneasy about this urge to "tidy up" old books, songs and movies to suit our modern sensibilities. I'd suggest either giving a brief intro explaining that the song contains the language and attitudes of a previous era or simply avoiding the song altogether.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:48 AM

Firstly, I've posted the song which prompted MARINER's question HERE.

Secondly: I recall having the same problem with The Flying Cloud. Like the last GUEST, I felt "negroes" didn't work for me. I simply substituted "bodies" - it held the rhythm, conveyed the horror and yet didn't draw attention to itself as, I suspect, "negro", does.

More generally, much of this discussion seems to reflect the difference between preserving a tradition , in the sense of maintaining some perceived, fixed integrity and keeping a tradition alive in the sense of accepting that change is inevitable. In the latter case, we can only try to ensure that any changes WE (as individuals) make contribute to the song's longevity rather than hasten its demise!

Incidentally, MARINER is a great example of just how alive the tradition is.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:50 AM

"The only branch of the "Folk Police...."
are those who would silence free discussion with terms like "Folk Police".
"My argument is simple enough - the Traditional Songs aren't ours to mess with."
Which would make us parrots rather than creative singers - crackers!.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:55 AM

Would somebody like to claim this anon post below that I've copied before the moderators delete it?

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old s
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:20 AM

Skipy said: "Yes! in the song "Edward Hollander" (flying Cloud)I refuse to sing "we hauled those niggers up on deck" I sing "we hauled those negroes up on deck".
"It has the same value in the song & should not offend."

Actually, I'm not sure it does have the same value in the song. The original word has a stronger percussive force, and vividly conveys the narrator's contempt in a way that "negroes" does not. The danger is that sanitising the song allows people to avoid the ugly truth its original wording conveys, and hence fall into a cosy illusion. Better to confront them with the unvarnished facts and let that be proof of how vile the old attitudes were.

I'm always a bit uneasy about this urge to "tidy up" old books, songs and movies to suit our modern sensibilities. I'd suggest either giving a brief intro explaining that the song contains the language and attitudes of a previous era or simply avoiding the song altogether.

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:12 AM

I agree with Jim & SOP - altering an old song isn't the 'folk process', I'm not a part of that community and I didn't inherit these traditional songs orally. I'm a part of the revival community with it's educated professionals and CD's and internet and so-on.

As for tampering not-in-the-name-of-the-folk-process is concerned, I do alter songs when I Anglicise a percentage of the dialect (as indeed I do) - as a Southerner I can't imitate a fake Scottish accent and it sounds stupid!

The 'revival process' that SOP describes with June Tabor etc. alike renderings of traditional songs, is indesputably healthy and well. Though I'd say it's quite an opposite one to the 'folk process' where evolution occurred, because now instead we tend to get standardised June Tabor songs or Anne Briggs songs or Jaqui McShee songs..

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: autoharpbob
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:37 AM

My favourite example is when Val Doonican sang "The Boxer" and changed it to "the girls on 7th Avenue". I wonder if he had permission?

Subject: RE: Is it permissible-to change a word in an old song?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:45 AM

.........well, it makes more sense than 'the horse on 7th Avenue'!!