BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 01:37 PM

The human race will be long gone before capitalism is "removed."

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 01:41 PM

There is hope, today I heard of small areas in the UK which produce their own Local currency and quite a number of community owned and run cafes and shops have recently been appearing not far from where I live.

Perhaps this is just a symptom of the coming depression, but maybe folks are at last starting to use their brains....I certainly hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 03:26 PM

AKe:

You may have missed the fact that technology which is profitably produced does in fact benefit humanity. The Cat is an excellent example.

Capitalism is not the same as corporatism although they often seem joined at the hip. This is a semantic point: if you use the word to mean "everything I don't like about big business" you will be having a very muddy conversation indeed, which very much seems to be the case here. There are specific weakness in the use of capitalism which I commented on up above, one of which is the concentration of money, another of which is the concentration of influence in the hands of a relatively small number of people. These are egregious flaws, no question. But they are remediable without changing the basic definition of capitalism.

For another example, the establishment of national Central Banks which are granted the right to create money by fiat is not inherently part of capitalism. But it is the seed of much harm.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 03:41 PM

I think capitalism is going to flourish. In different ways..fewer robber barons because there is a more educated populace and a lot of infrastructure, such as housing etc. Some social expectations in some countries at least of health care, some subsidized agriculture etc. so the basics are or should be covered. Once that has happened, what is the need for anyting else? An educated population, a probably stable population in a few years, some repairs to the environment, things like the internet, a merging of religions more or less to take the edge off that source of conflict..free or very cheap energy, machines that did what enslaved or certainly exploited people did...I think capitalism is going to take off and incredibly resolve some chronic problems of food supply (if and only if we are smart about this and don't pave over our farmlands), clean water, etc.

You have something free and flexible, with innate problems of being vulnerable to exploitation..and that can be made illegal..with a huge downside of being so flexible that whole chunks of jobs etc. can be wiped out in an instant. On the other hand, you have something that can not respond quickly and is ponderous..but provides a safety cushion. ONe can balance the other. We are smart enough to figure this out. Now is the time for hope and not despair because things are certainly correcting now that needed to be (except for the price of my house and the security of my job)...but with better controls in place and hopefully just a few more countries coming on board as non-enemies..things will be very rosy.

We need to get busy on desalinization, restoration of destroyed ecosystems etc...but it can be done. Where is our can do attitude? That is probably the biggest thing we have to restructure. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 04:14 PM

How are local currency and community owned and run cafes different from capitalism?

( ...answer - they're not. They're both examples of capitalism.)

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 05:05 PM

The two community shops are non profit Carol and the currency seems to be a mechanism to encourage local services. I only heard about it this morning so I haven't much information, but at least it's a start to move away from outright capitalism.

I never suggested that a different way of life could be adopted overnight, as i said above it will take a long time to change the habits of centuries and may even prove impossible given the power at the disposal of the capitalists, but if we want a future on planet Earth for our grandchildren, we must stop what we are doing and make a start on something new now.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 05:13 PM

We can rein in the capitalists. We are the capitalists. We don't need to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. We need to monitor it and feed it and see that it is not exploited.

Now here are some things capitalism needs to do:

Figure out how to move goods better in the public/charity sector. We have huge amounts of stuff we call garbage that would be very useful to developing countries. We just need to get it to them and the very thought paralyzes us.

Develop cheap energy. On its way. Here already basically.

Clean water..related to cheap energy..pumps, filters etc.

Figure out how to convert garbage to energy. Doable.

More later. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: GUEST,crazyhorse
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 06:55 PM

The original question seems to conflate capitalism with free markets. I asked which he meant but there was no answer.

In the west, especially now, there are a number of countries where the government is (taking in and) spending more than 50% of the gdp, it seems strange then to call these capitalists when it is being centrally controlled.

Free markets do not necessarily mean capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 07:25 PM

Problem is that the markets AIN'T free. When the seller also owns the means of production, means of transporting and means of manufacture--ie., multi-nationals/conglomerates, the pricing sure gets funny real quick.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 07:26 PM

Last thing for a bit. IMO, I don't know whether capitalism's outlived its usefulness--but I goddamned guarantee you some capitalists have.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: GUEST,Nick E
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 07:55 PM

It shure Has, Everyone give me all the money they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 02:20 PM

There is no such thing as a free market. It has always been regulated to some degree or other by legalities or agencies.

Capitalism is one form of applying a principle to government as is Socialism. They both have their uses and are found in Sweden, Norway, Canada, Germany and other civilized countries.

This either-or mythology explains why everyone gets so excited at the prospect of one form of government or another taking over as if a monolithic monster. It has never happened and never will. There will always be mitigating circumstances unless our country goes completely fascist.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 02:26 PM

Peace raises a good point; vertical integration undermines the dynamics of free trade by locking comeptitive pressures out of the supply chain for the integrated corporation. It's a bit of a thorny problem, since there's no reason you could prohibit a successful entrepreneur who started a software company from also starting a hardware company and an electrical parts company and a marketing company, and telling them all to give each other deals.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Sookite
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 03:41 PM

I think there is good and bad in every system. We should take all the good stuff and make a new system.....We could call it communalism.