BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness

Subject: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:06 PM

Capitalism has always been applied to the poor and middle class while Socialism has always applied to corporations in the form of corporate welfare, bail outs and tax break/ free status.

Capitalism has spearheded the wanton destruction of the enviorment for small short term profits. It does not even serve nations such as Japan that is the ideal culture for capitalism to theoretically be perfect.

There is nothing wrong with free markets under certain conditions.
I like the free market although it is very expensive.

The free market is a bit like Newtonian Physics but does not work well at the relativistic speeds of capital speculation and destruction in these recent times of total deregulation.

I think the new economics will be something strikingly similar to the economy of the United Federation of Planets on Star Trek ;)

There will still be room for you Ferengi's out there and your gold pressed Latinum. The rules for acquistion will however have to be regulated and the uptick rule must be reinstated.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:38 PM

Well are you talking about capitalism or free markets.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:43 PM

"has outlived " - I'm not too sure about that...

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:44 PM

Not so much dead, perhaps, as undead.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:34 PM

Zombie capitalism is the result of Wall Street USA cheating and lying to the entire global market. They killed their golden goose.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:44 PM

The Golden Rule at work.

"He who has the gold makes the rules."

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Slag
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:48 PM

...und those who belief different, enter zeee gate on da right. We haff some vonderful parting gifts for you...

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:52 PM

Yess. Ve haff good news and vee haff bad news. Ze good news: haff uf you are going to Norvay, zee otter haff to Sveden. Zee bad news: zee top half is going to Norvay, . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:54 PM

Capitalism has never been useful, other than to those who control it and has enslaved humanity for several centuries.
The sooner we are done with it the better and although, (as McGrath notes) it is not dead, it's unsustainability is becoming apparent to all.

When Capitalism goes into decline,we should guard against the next phase which is "Police State" then outright Facism. Within year or so we should see the first signs of a clampdown on protest as job losses and erosion of living standards begin to bite.

    "Freedoms are being lost in Britain because of the rapid growth of the "national security state." This form of militarism was imported from the United States by New Labour. Totalitarian in essence, it relies upon fear mongering to entrench the executive with venal legal mechanisms that progressively diminish democracy and justice. "Security" is all, as is propaganda promoting rapacious colonial wars, even as honest mistakes. Take away this propaganda, and the wars are exposed for what they are, and fear evaporates. Take away the obeisance of many in Britain's liberal elite to American power and you demote a profound colonial and crusader mentality that covers for epic criminals like Blair. Prosecute these criminals and change the system that breeds them and you have freedom." John Pilger.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:56 PM

Neocons deserve the rope and then a ten foot drop, IMO. The enslavement of this world's population is a reality in progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:48 PM

Warren Buffet warned against justice/revenge against those who invented the worst theft and lies that has killed the golden goose for the entire world.

He said "We don't want victims, we want victory!"


That he dared refer to the Bond rating CEO's and Investment bank CEO's as "VICTIMS" is Orwellian.

Obama is better insurance against further victimization of the poorest victims of this collosal theft than the Bush regieme which was primed and ready to do battle against the American civilian withnew weapons, agencies like HLS and the regular military.

Yes there are people like Rush who will call for all kinds of craziness including civil war. Confident sane people are our best defense against the most irrational. Expect more than our fair share of irrationality all the same.

Equating capitalism to motherhood and freedom is getting harder to sell to people who know they are in tents because of the capitalist lies they fell for.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:59 PM

Save some rope for the neoMarxists. They deserve a long drop too.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:06 PM

In one word... yes!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:14 PM

Capitalism isn't dead, or even undead (although I love that reference). It's just in a chrysalis right now while it prepares to reform itself from a worm into a butterfly. The new kind of capitalism that will be left standing (or flying) after the shell of the old kind of capitalism falls away will be conscious capitalism. That will provide us with what we need for a long time into the future (until we can get our United Federation of Planets economic model sorted out).

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 10:48 PM

If you're reading this message, you're doing so on some type of device which someone created with the profit motive in mind. If you'd like to see total technological stagnation then, by all means, let's do away with capitalism all together. The potential for making money is the only reason anyone creates anything useful. Put everyone to work for the government and the only things that will get created will be bigger bombs, jingoistic art, and tractors that break down every other hour.

The problem isn't capitalism per se, but rampant, unbridled, unregulated corporate capitalism. It's not the small-town independent bank that's the problem. It's Citibank and Bank of America.

I believe that any corporation with over X number of employees or Y number of dollars in sales volume should have in house government regulators who oversee every aspect of the company's operation. Corporate America has been left unsupervised, and they've made a mess of the playground. If they still want to play, they're gonna have to learn to do it with someone watching over their shoulders.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: DougR
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 01:12 AM

Horsepucky! No other economic system can hold a candle to Capitalism. People will likely begin to recognize they elected the wrong person pretty soon.

Those of you who have a direct line to your hero, Obama, please communicate to him that he should stay off TV. Everytime he makes some baleful announcement about the terrible financial situation the stock market takes a dive.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 01:20 AM

BWL, I guess I'd better send AVG a donation after all...!

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 01:34 AM

No, no...it's idle talk that has outlived its usefullness.

With that in mind, you will note I am posting much less frequently on Mudcat lately.

I can only hope that others are inspired by my example... ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 01:55 AM

Before anyone starts announcing the expiration of capialism, I would like to see a workable alternative method demonstrated.

And a clear definition of what they actually mean by capitalism.

It takes an incredible amount of work and stress to bring about new inventions and make them into products that serve a good purpose; until you have succeeded at doing so yourself, you are scarcely in a position to analyze what works or does not.

I suspect that your are not actually waving your arms about capitalism, but about the untrammeled corporatism which has in the recent past been AMerican capitalism's worst example.

Those are two very different things. Ther is in fact such a thing as virtuous capitalism, just as there are corrupt Christians, and responsible socialists. The abandon with which some folks fly off on categories and broad generalities is a bit offputting.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 03:50 AM

Spoken like a true "liberal" Amos!.....virtuous Capitalism my arse!
The ethos is totally wrong, and as an economic system it's been used to herd people into a life of economic slavery to the machine.
"Liberals" don't want change, they want to tinker with what we have; and all the while the system becomes less sustainable.

"They have become comfortable on the train, and although the tracks will stop in a mile or two, they think it is unreasonable to contemplate alighting from the train and carrying on on foot"

A change to far Amos??

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 04:18 AM

and for those idiots who think "de-regulation" is the problem, ponder this. Why were our political leaders so keen to de-regulate?

To sustain our wasteful way of life even in the short term, continual economic growth is required....and the easiest way to promote a perception of growth is to de-regulate the financial system.

In simple terms Capitalism has run out of tracks!!
Our leaders are well aware of the situation we are in, but with the aid of a few useful idiots(Liberals), they obviously feel they can make their comfy train chug on a little longer!

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Stu
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 04:27 AM

"Save some rope for the neoMarxists. They deserve a long drop too."

Thanks Slag - nice to know someone out there wants to kill you.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Stu
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 04:28 AM

I mean kill me.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 07:34 AM

Capitalism lives on and on and on... The rich get richer and the poor get poorer... the greed carries on and corrupts the people and the system... perhaps if those who have all the money were generous and heartfelt in their dealings with those less fortunate.. life as it is could survive.... but it is reaching the point where people in our own country are struggling even harder to make ends meet... so much so that Third World Countries will eventually be neglected in favour of our own. But who really cares except the victims... those who suffer.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:21 AM

Gunpowder has been used to herd people, too, Ake, but it has scarcely outlived its usefulness. Sex has been used to enslave people, too, but it is still useful for its intended purpose.

Perhaps you have never read about the hundreds of lives that have been changed by microloans, a form of capitalism which enables people to start businesses. I would call this virtuous capitalism.

The problem with your vague hopes for free distribution of everything to everyone is that you cannot make it work.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 11:12 AM

There's different kinds of growth, and not all of them are bad. The old capitalist model was essentially bankrupt, so it had to resort to fraudulent, unethical, and ultimately, unworkable financial "innovations" in order to give the appearance of growth. But it wasn't really growth.

With conscious capitalism, the potential for real growth is astronomical. The new and emerging markets in green technologies, and sustainable goods and services, and in technologies for solving our environmental problems, will provide an enormous engine for growth, and it will be sustainable, socially responsible growth.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:01 PM

Right on Carol !

I should add not only is the old capitalist model bankrupt ... but also the old socialist model and political models.

Are we about to enter a new dawn of a new age ? I really don't know but can only hope.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:36 PM

I would also add that the old capitalist model, all of the rhetoric of it's most ardent cheerleaders notwithstanding, was the opposite of a "free market" approach. The markets were as controlled in what we have called the "free market" as they have been with the socialist models. They've just been controlled using different (and sometimes less obvious) means.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:38 PM

...having said that, though, the derivatives market is the closest thing we've ever had to a truly free market, and that was an utter failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM

I cannot say what history has to show in other parts of the world but in Britain and the USA many of the benefactors that provided employment, housing, health care, educational establishments, libraries etc. did so because they were able to. They were only able to so because they were successful in the most cut-throat, competitive era of free enterprise driven by blatant capitalism. Thank the Lord for them. e.g. Cadbury, Carnegie, Armstrong, and many more.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 01:20 PM

They probably could have done as much good for people had they just paid them a living wage up front, though. The only difference would be their own lifestyles would not have been as extravagant.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: DougR
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 01:33 PM

Carole: If there is a lottery in your state (Powerball, etc.)and if you played it and won 200 million dollars, would you give it all away to those less fortunate than yourself?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 02:40 PM

What is the point behind that question?

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:12 PM

We have been told that if we just gave all the money to the rich that they would provide good jobs in return...

Well, 30 years into that little experiement we have the results that model has failed...

Face it, rich people use money for their own comforts.. Theyn have absolutely no interets in the security of the country or the other 95%... None... Zip...Nada...

So that being the case, why not just pool our resorces and turn over industry to the people... I mean, how many folks think that GM wouold be on the brink of failure if it were owned by all of US... It should be owned by all of US because in good times we would all enjoy the benefits and in bad times we would all share in the risk... Right now, in good tiimes the rich enjoy the spoils but in bad times the rest of US are asked to carry the load...

That is a sytem that cannot be successful...

Okay, I can understand a little capitalism in terms of samll businesses but not large corpoartions... Don't work no more!!! And too broke to fix...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Peace
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:17 PM

"Everytime he [Obama] makes some baleful announcement about the terrible financial situation the stock market takes a dive."

So calling an orange an orange screws up citrus producers? Who'da thunk it.

Doug, it's your birthday. Go read your thread ya ol' fart.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:28 PM

GM should be OWNED by the US? Just lik ethat? Nationalized? That's pretty extreme. I would remind you that a lot of people risked their money backing GM when it was a small venture and many times since. A lot of people invested toil and brain power to make it succeed. This sounds like that old joke about the different political systems and how they treat a cow you own.

I suggest that there is a world of difference between capitalism itself and unregulated greed using capitalist structures.

Capitalism espouses the belief that if you put your wealth at risk on a new venture, you should own a share of the profits if it meets with success. Because you are risking losing up to the amount of your investment if your effort fails.

This concept of ownership in a group's fortune's is a critical enabling feature of all kinds of endeavours that would not be possible otherwise. Without it, many of the explorations and trading expeditions that opened the world to Western Europeans would never have happened.

If I had a little reserve of money and was asked to invest it in a company that was going to be given away to thousands of people who never contributed to it, I can tellyou how much I'd put in the kitty. Like zilch, man.

Now--maybe there IS a better middle ground, a balance of ownership for effort as well as capital that could be better calculated. The old whaling ships and buccaneers made shares of their proceeds for those who risked their live3s as well as those who risked their dollars.

But just nationalizing a manufacurer is a bad idea.

Banks, now, are a different matter; the thing that sSHOULD be nationalized is the right to create money by fiat. No one should be able to do that by just writing loans, as it degrades the currency.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 09:22 PM

Who owns GM?
We do, through purchase of their stocks, our pension, savings, bank, credit union, etc. purchases of their stock (owned mostly by investors, not the corporation). I think I have said this before.
They provide hundreds of thousands of jobs within the company and have contributed to many more in businesses that use their products.
As stockholders, we have a vote on policies; if nationalized, none.

The system needs improving, but it has served us well for generations.

Rich means entrepreneurship and application of creativity. Without the ability to borrow, grow and create wealth, Gates and Microsoft, Dell, and a thousand others would never have succeeded.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 09:40 PM

From what I've been hearing and reading, though, average shareholders don't really have much of a real vote because the boards of directors have ways of overriding a lot of shareholders' votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 09:43 PM

Well, Amos... That was along time ago... That is like stuff from an old black and white James Stewart movie...

Reality is that GM has become soft in the belly, stubborn and not into success... No, they didn't go out to fail but fail they have done... Why??? Because they are bums who knew that they were too big to fail... They knew that if times got tough that the governemnt would step in... They had that leverage... They have acted irresposibly and lied to their stock holders and tried to BS the American public...

They went a decade building pure crap... Okay, maybe 2 decades but who's countin'...

That was pure arrogance on their part... If the American people had owned GM, like they do now, back in the late 80's GM would be healthy today because the American people wouldn't have put up with such crap... Congresss would have stepped in and said, "No mass, this stuff is junk"...

Ford??? Not much better...

Chrylser??? Worse yet... Junk...

I mean, if we are going to risj capital on arrogance then we are going to fail 100 times out of a 100...

Nationalize the auto industry and put a bunch of housewives and ol' hippies in the design department with the engineers and all will be fine...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 09:46 PM

"Capitalism has outlived its usefullness..."


                  It's done that before, but we keep bringing it back!

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: GUEST,guest jfl
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:14 PM

well i doubt that a bunch of old hippoes and house wives could do worse than gms present staff

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:25 PM

Oh ye of little faith!!!

We could do far worse if given the chance! ;-D By God, mister jfl, you ain't seen nothin' yet. I am talking total disaster. Complete meltdown. Fuck-up par excellence. End of the friggin' world as we know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:58 PM

I thought the election of Ronald Reagan was the end of the world as we know it, are we going to have to go through that again?

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:01 AM

Is Toyota (down 56%) pure crap? They are asking for support from the Japanese government. French Peugeot and Renault? They also must get support. German Volkswagen? Jan. sales down 21%. The inability to get bank loans and people tightening their belts is hitting them all.
Cars from GM, Japanese makers, have about the same life span, if the figures are checked.
About 20 years ago, GM had problems with paint and body part seams, but that was corrected. They are still having to live with opinions people formed then, but which no longer are valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:42 AM

Today's market leaped up in response to Citi's projection of profit. Wouldn't it be interesting if this downturn were just a temporary hiccup? Not that I believe it for a minute but if it turned out to be true, would we have learned a lasting lesson? I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Mark Ross
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:53 AM

I remember the joke I heard riding across Wyoming on a Greyhound Bus sitting next to a Russian emigre. He told me that in Moscow they used to say, "Under capitalism, man oppresses man, under communism, it's just the opposite!"

Mark Ross
(Anarcho-syndicalist)

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 01:02 AM

Here is a link to a spine-tingling song presented in an amazing fashion.

Lovely!

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 01:28 AM

If you're not an American, feel free to react differently. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 04:03 AM

"Before anyone starts announcing the expiration of capialism, I would like to see a workable alternative method demonstrated."

The age old cry of the "Liberal" capitalist, but it does make a point. If we wish to continue as a greedy,wasteful society, in the process of completely destroying the planet on which we live and in that process depriving the vast majority of the chance to fulfill themselves as members of their species, or attain any sense of real happiness in their short lives, then we have no alternative;

But if we refuse to see ourselves as a herd of crazed caged animals and as individuals start to lead a life which reflects the needs of nature and the planet, rather than the wishes of our political masters, we stand a chance of long term survival.

It is not simply replacing one economic system with another, that is bound to fail......but a slow change in the way we as human beings perceive our future and our quality of life......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism has outlived its usefullness
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 10:44 AM

So who (or who's reputation) is forst against the wall when the revolution comes?

Ray Gun & Thatcher?

They let the market decide, and it has decided. Greed is Good. what a GiG!

I always said it was mortgaging the future. And we are into a bit of negative equity right now and for a long time as well.