BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.

Subject: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:31 PM

CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. March 14-16, 2008. N=463 registered Democrats nationwide. MoE ± 4.5.

"Who would you MOST like to see win the Democratic nomination for president: Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama?" Names rotated

Obama             52%
Hillary            45%
Undecided          3%

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:34 PM

Story here.


Lest anyone be buried by the bullshit in another thraed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: number 6
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:36 PM

Poll numbers going down .... the U.S. debt going up, way up.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:37 PM

Obama is gonna do it. Prepare yourselves for a great speech tomorrow. And prepare yourself for Hillary's numbers to drop by Friday. Homey is gonna play one helluva tune.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: number 6
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:38 PM

I certainly hope ... heaven knows, the U.S. needs someone to play one helluva tune.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:40 PM

I kinda am lookin' forward to this turning point.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: number 6
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:44 PM

All I can say I hope, and I really hope he can ... if he can't ... well all hope is lost as far as I'm concerned.

This will be his 'defining hour'.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:45 PM

Let me guess.
An uplifting speech to those who support him and a major guilt trip on the rest.
This is absolutely incredible to watch.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:48 PM

It is times like this that make me wish Mark Twain was still with us. If it all wasn't so tragic it would be funny.

There are many people who seem not to be able to tell the difference between who said what. Must be that all Black folks look alike to them, or something. Personally, I find very little resemblance between these guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:49 PM

Truthfully, Jim, what have you found 'uplifting' about Hillary?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: number 6
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:52 PM

Her bra ??

ok ... I'm outta here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 12:23 AM

OK. Other than that . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:30 AM

I've got major issues with the Clintons. And the fact that Hillary's poll numbers continue to go down demonstrates the fact that a lot of people have major issues with her-and her hubby. Hillary was never the most well liked politician-or politian's wife-in the world. She has always had high negatives. And-as a result of the type of win at all cost campaign she is waging, those negatives have gotten higher.

Markos Moulitas, the founder of the progressive political blog dailykos, wrote a long front page diary today in which he indicated that Hillary is waging a civil war against the Democratic party.
Here's an excerpt from that article:

The Clinton civil war
by kos
Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:25:22 AM PDT

"...Clinton isn't the most horrible person in the world. She's actually quite nice, despite all her flaws, and would make a fine enough president.

If she was winning.

But she's not, and that's the rub.

First of all, the only path to victory for Clinton is via coup by super delegate.

She knows this. That's why there's all the talk about poaching pledged delegates and spinning uncertainty around Michigan and Florida, and laying the case for super delegates to discard the popular will and stage a coup.

Yet a coup by super delegate would sunder the party in civil war.

Clinton knows this, it's her only path to victory, and she doesn't care. She is willing -- nay, eager to split the party apart in her mad pursuit of power.

If the situations were reversed, and Obama was lagging in the delegates, popular vote, states won, money raised, and every other reasonable measure, then I'd feel the same way about Obama. (I pulled the plug early on Dean in 2004.) But that's not the case.

It is Clinton, with no reasonable chance of victory, who is fomenting civil war in order to overturn the will of the Democratic electorate. As such, as far as I'm concerned, she doesn't deserve "fairness" on this site. All sexist attacks will be dealt with -- those will never be acceptable. But otherwise, Clinton has set an inevitably divisive course and must be dealt with appropriately.

To reiterate, she cannot win without overturning the will of the national Democratic electorate and fomenting civil war, and she doesn't care.

That's why she has earned my enmity and that of so many others. That's why she is bleeding super delegates. That's why she's even bleeding her own caucus delegates (remember, she lost a delegate in Iowa on Saturday). That's why Keith Olbermann finally broke his neutrality. That's why Nancy Pelosi essentially cast her lot with Obama. That's why Democrats outside of the Beltway are hoping for the unifying Obama at the top of the ticket, and not a Clinton so divisive, she is actually working to split her own party...

People like me have two choices -- look the other way while Clinton attempts to ignite her civil war, or fight back now, before we cross that dangerous line. Honestly, it wasn't a difficult choice. And it's clear, looking at where the super delegates, most bloggers, and people like Olbermann are lining up, that the mainstream of the progressive movement is making the same choice.

And the more super delegates see what is happening, and what Clinton has in store, the more imperative it is that they line up behind Obama and put an end to it before it's too late".

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/17/12417/1285/527/478498

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:40 AM

Besides the fact that the math is against a Hillary win [for the Democratic nomination and for the general election, here are some other reasons why Hillary's poll numbers are continuing to go down-and why they should stay down:

"...Off the top of my head, I can recall the following negative attacks from the Clinton campaign - I challenge anyone to come up with a similar list of attacks by the Obama campaign:

1. the muslim smear emails circulated by Iowa staffers
2. the "cocaine" issue raised by Billy Shaheen, Mark Penn and Bob Johnson
3. the false email sent around in NH concerning Obama's pro-choice record
4. Bill Clinton's "roll of the dice" and "fairytale" comments in NH and the subsequent dismissal of Obama's position on Iraq
5. Bill Clinton's South Carolina statements and the misquoting of Obama's statement about Reagan and ideas
6. the first negative ad (radio) in South Carolina regarding the "Reagan / ideas" statement
7. mailers in MA mispresenting Obama's Healthcare plan
8. the first negative (TV) ad in Wisconsin regarding "refusal to debate"
9. the 3 AM ad
10. the suggestion that John McCain has passed the commander-in-chief threshold but Obama hasn't
11. the claim that Obama's entire campaign is based on one speech
12. the qualified answer to Steve Croft's "Is Obama a muslim" question
13. the fake AP news story ad regarding Obama and Naftagate run in Ohio
14. Penn claiming that Obama is unelectable

The attacks range from the morally reprehensible to me (nos. 3 and 12), to the intellectually offensive (5, 6, and 11) to the ridiculous (14) to the "politics as usual" (the rest of them). However, hard to argue that Clinton has not been attacking negatively".

-KD, on March 17th, 2008 at 7:39 am

Clinton Internet Staffer Pushes Panic Button
http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=902#comments

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:48 AM

I just like to see a fair race, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:54 AM

And the beat goes on.

Bill Clinton rejects criticism over race
By Beth Fouhy, Associated Press Writer

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080318/ap_on_el_pr/bill_clinton_race

"Former President Clinton on Monday called the notion that he unfairly criticized his wife's rival, Barack Obama, "a total myth and a mugging." Clinton had compared Obama's landslide victory in South Carolina's Jan. 26 primary to Jesse Jackson's wins in the state in 1984 and 1988.

Clinton was widely criticized for appearing to cast Obama as little more than a black candidate popular in a state with a heavily black electorate. He was widely accused of fanning racial tensions.

"They made up a race story out of that," Clinton said of the news media, calling the story "a bizarre spin."

In an interview with ABC's "Good Morning America" broadcast Monday, Clinton said he had gotten a "bum rap" from the news media.

He made similar comments on CNN's "American Morning," calling the notion that he had unfairly criticized Obama in South Carolina as "a total myth and a mugging."

While campaigning in South Carolina in January, Bill Clinton complained that Obama had put out a "hit job" on him. He didn't explain what that meant.

At an MTV forum for college journalists Saturday, Clinton said he knew as soon as Obama won Iowa's caucuses Jan. 3 that he was on his way to wrapping up a large majority of black voters in other primary states.

"Iowa happened. The minute it became possible that he could be the nominee, he was going to win the lion's share of the African-American vote," Clinton said. "And I never begrudged it."

He added, "Contrary to the myth, I went through South Carolina and never said a bad word about Senator Obama — not one."

-snip-

What Bill and Hillary don't get is that you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

It takes a village to bring the Clintons down.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:20 AM

"After days of tacitly condoning Geraldine Ferraro's controversial comments, Hillary Clinton becomes the focus of MSNBC's Keith Olbermann's Special Comment" *

Here's the text to that special comment:

"Text of Keith Olbermann's "Special Comment" delivered live last night on MSNBC, decrying Hillary Clinton for the tactics of her campaign and specifically for her failure to categorically reject the remarks of Geraldine Ferraro about Barack Obama. The video may be viewed here. Transcript below:

KEITH OLBERMANN: Finally, as promised, a special comment on the presidential campaign of the junior senator from New York. By way of necessary preface, President and Senator Clinton and the senator's mother and the senator's brother were of immeasurable support to me at the moments when these very commentaries were the focus of the most surprise, the most uncertainty and the most anger. My gratitude to them is unbiding.

Also, I am not here endorsing Senator Obama`s nomination, nor suggesting in it is inevitable. Thus I have fought with myself over whether or not to say anything. Events insist.

Senator, as it has reached its apex in their tone deaf, arrogant and insensitive reaction to the remarks of Geraldine Ferraro, your own advisers are slowly killing your chances to become president. Senator, their words and your own are now slowly killing the chances for any Democrat to become president. In your tepid response to this Ferraro disaster, you may sincerely think you disenthralling an enchanted media and righting an unfair advance bestowed on Senator Obama. You may think the matter has closed with Representative Ferraro's bitter, almost threatening resignation letter.

But, in fact, senator, you are now campaigning as if Barack Obama were the Democrat and you were the Republican. As Shakespeare wrote, senator, "that way madness lies." You have missed a critical opportunity to do what was right. No matter what Miss Ferraro now claims, no one took her comments out of context. She had made them on at least there separate occasions, then twice more on television this morning. Just hours ago, on "NBC Nightly News," she denied she had made the remark in an interview, only at a paid political speech.

In fact, the first time she spoke them was 10 days before that California newspaper published them, not in a speech, but in a radio interview. On February 26, quoting, "if Barack Obama were a white man, would we be talking about this as a potential real problem for Hillary. If he were a woman of any color, would he be in this position that he's in? Absolutely not."

The content was inescapable. Two minutes earlier, a member of Senator Clinton's finance committee, one of her Hill-Raisers had bemoaned the change in allegiance by super delegate John Lewis from Clinton to Obama and also the endorsement of Obama by Senator Dodd; "I look at these guys doing it," she had said, "and I have to tell you, it`s the guys sticking together."

A minute after the color remark, she was describing herself as having been chosen for the 1984 Democratic ticket purely as a woman politician, purely to make history. She was, in turn, making a blind accusation of sexism and dismissing Senator Obama`s candidacy as nothing more than some equal opportunity stunt.

The next day, she repeated her comments and a reporter from the newspaper in Torrence, California heard them; "If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. If he was a woman of any color, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is and the country is caught up in the concept."

And when this despicable statement, ugly in its overtones, laughable in its week grip of the facts, and moronic in the historical context, when it floats outward from the Clinton campaign like a poison cloud, what do the advisers have their candidate do? Do they have Senator Clinton herself compare the remark to Al Campanis (ph) talking on "Nightline" on Jackie Robinson Day about how blacks lack the necessities to become baseball executives, while she points out that Barack Obama has not gotten his 1600 delegates as part of some kind of affirmative action plan?

Do they have Senator Clinton note that her own brief period in elected office is as irrelevant to the issue of judgment as is Senator Obama's, while she points out that FDR had served only six years as governor and state senator before he became president? Or that Teddy Roosevelt had four and a half years before the White House? Or that Woodrow Wilson had two years and six weeks?

Or Richard Nixon 14? And Calvin Coolidge 25?

Do these advisers have Senator Clinton invoke Samantha Power, gone by sunrise after she used the word monster, and have Senator Clinton say, this is how I police my campaign, and this is what I stand for, while she fires former Congresswoman Ferraro from any role in the campaign? No, somebody tells her that simply disagreeing with, then rejecting the remarks is sufficient. She should then call regrettable words that should make any Democrat retch.

And that she should then try to twist them, first into some pox on both your houses plea to stick to the issues, and then to let her campaign manager try to bend them beyond all recognition into Senator Obama's fault. And thus these advisers give Congresswoman Ferraro nearly a week in which to send Senator Clinton`s campaign back into the vocabulary of David Duke; "anytime anybody does anything that in any way pulls this campaign down and says, let`s address reality and the problems we're facing in this world, you`re accused of being racist, so you have to shut up. Racism works in two different directions. I really think they are attacking me because I'm white. How's that?"

How's that? Apart from sounding exactly like Rush Limbaugh attacking the black football quarterback Donovan McNab, apart from sounding exactly like what Miss Ferraro said about another campaign nearly 20 years ago, quote, "President Reagan suggested Tuesday that people don't ask Jesse Jackson tough questions because of his race. Former Representative Geraldine A. Ferraro said Wednesday that because of his, quote, radical views, if Jesse Jackson were not black, he would not be in the race."

So apart from sounding like insidious racism that is at least two decades old, apart from rendering ridiculous Senator Clinton`s shell game about choosing Obama as vice president, apart from this evenings resignation letter; "I am stepping down from your finance committee so I can speak for myself and you can continue to speak for yourself about what is at stake in this campaign. The Obama campaign is attacking me to hurt you."

Apart from all that, well, it sounds as if those advisers wanted their campaign to be associated with those words, and the cheap, ignorant, vile racism that underlies every syllable of them, and that Geraldine Ferraro has just gone freelance.

Senator Clinton, that is not a campaign strategy. This is a suicide pact. This week alone, your so-called strategists have declared that Senator Obama has not yet crossed some commander in chief threshold, but he might still be your choice to be vice president, even though a quarter of
the previous 16 vice presidents have become commander in chief during the greatest kind of crisis this country can face, a midterm succession, but you only pick him if he crosses that threshold by the time of the convention.

But if he does cross that threshold by the time of the convention, he will only have done so sufficiently enough to become vice president, not president? Senator, if the serpentine logic of your so-called advisers were not bad enough, now thanks to Geraldine Ferraro and your campaigns initial refusal to break with her, and your new relationship with her, now more disturbing still with her claim that she can now speak for herself about her vision as Senator Obama as some kind of embodiment of a quota if she wishes.

If you were to seek Obama as a vice president, it would be to Miss Ferraro some called of social engineering gesture, some kind of racial make good. Do you not see, senator?

To Senator Clinton`s supporters, to her admirers, to her friends for whom she is first choice and to her friends for whom she is second choice, she is still letting herself be perceived as standing next to and standing by racial divisiveness and blindness. Worse yet, after what President Clinton said during the South Carolina primary, comparing the Obama and Jesse Jackson campaigns, a disturbing but only border line remark, after what some in the black community have perceived as a racial undertone to the 3:00 a.m. ad, a disturbing but only borderline interpretation, and after the moments hesitation in her own answer on "60 Minutes" about Obama's religion, a disturbing but only borderline vagueness -- after those precedents, there are those who see a pattern. False or true, they see it. After those precedents, there are those who see an intent. False or true, they see it. After those precedents, there are those that see the Clinton campaign`s anything but benign neglect of the Ferraro catastrophe, falsely or truly, as a desire to hear the kind of casual prejudice which still haunts the society voiced, and to not distance the campaign from it.

To not distance you from it, Senator. To not distance you from that which you, as a woman, and Senator Obama, as an African-American, should both know and feel with the deepest of personal pain, which you should both fight with all you have, which you should both ensure has no place in this contest ever.

This, Senator Clinton, is your campaign and it is your name. Grab the reigns back from whoever has led you to this precipice before it is too late. Voluntarily or inadvertently, you are still awash in this filth. Your only reaction has been to disagree, reject, to call it regrettable. Her only reaction has been to brand herself as the victim and resign from your committee and insist she will continue to speak. Unless, senator, you say something definitive, the former congresswoman is speaking with your
approval.

You must remedy this and you must reject and denounce Geraldine Ferraro. Good night and good luck."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/13/transcript-olbermann-ant_n_91330.html

-snip-

Here's a link to a YouTube video of that March 12,2008 Keith Olbermann special comment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch

* This quote is taken from the YouTube summary about this special comment.

This special comment is remarkable because Olbermann has been {and says that he continues to be] neutral with regard to the nominations of Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama. Olbermann has become known for his intelligent, eloquent special comments {which some might term "rants"}. However, heretofore, the subject of these special comments were the Bush administration and other Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:22 AM

I'd appreciate it if a moderator would fix the mistake that I made in that last post. The text after the asterick is not supposed to be hyperlinked. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 03:26 AM

Maybe if you could come up with some original thoughts and a little less cutting and pasting crap that you probably haven't bothered reading yourself....

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 07:38 AM

Maybe if you could come up with some original thoughts and a little less cutting and pasting crap that you probably haven't bothered reading yourself....
-Jim Ladd

Jim Ladd, I vehemently reject and denounce you or anyone else calling me a mere cut & paster.

I usually re-read everything I post. But I admit that I don't use the preview feature. And I also admit that sometimes I mess up the italic font.

I guess I'll have to be fined twenty lashes with a wet noodle for those grievous sins.

And btw, I vehemently accept, affirm, and support all of the cut & post comments that I've posted in this thread thus far.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:06 AM

I'd like to quickly ammend my statement about agreeing, affirming, and supporting what I cut & pasted to emphatically say that I absolutely do not agree, affirm, and support former President Bill Clinton's use {again} of racist dog whistle statements. Furthermore, I absolutely do not agree, affirm, and support the content of those statements, including Bill's latest-[Bill Clinton saying that] "the notion that he unfairly criticized his wife's rival, Barack Obama, "a total myth and a mugging." and when he [Bill Clinton] "compared Obama's landslide victory in South Carolina's Jan. 26 primary to Jesse Jackson's wins in the state in 1984 and 1988".

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:21 AM

And, given the type of campaign the Clintons have run, in the context of that campaign, I believe the word "mugging" and the reference to "hit job" were purposeful. I believe that they are dog whistle statements that are directed to those racist non-Black folks out there who associate "muggings" and "hit jobs" {i.e.-street violence} with Black men.

I very much believe that the purposeful use of those particular words and phrases is another way for the Clintons to attempt to minimize the candidacy of Senator Barack Obama by getting Americans to consider Obama as a Black candidate and not as a candidate whose policies and positions are germane to all Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:25 AM

Jim Ladd-

"a little less cutting and pasting crap that you probably haven't bothered reading yourself"

Your original comment above lacks common courtesy.

I would PM you on this but the last time I did that you instructed me not to do that again.

We don't have to agree on politics but why not make more of an effort to be civil in your disagreement?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:33 AM

I would have voted for her but she has weaseled on Iraq weaseled on NAFTA and weasled on her own accountability.
If it smells like a weasel...etc

Barak thnks on his feet and has a truthful even tempered, reasoned and measured response every time I have listened to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:54 AM

I'm afraid this is just step 3 on the twelve-point plan to marginalize Mr. Obama as a 'black candidate'. They've carefully baited him into speaking directly on race although the voters don't seem to give a flying flip about the subject. The constant pounding about race will start to lead casual moderate voters into seeing him as a standard liberal Democrat hack, and will send some scurrying to either vote for McCain or stay home.

With any luck, Karl Rove won't even have to lob his first grenade, the Democrats have found a way to implode.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:39 AM

I certainly get the feeling that Hillary's race has run its course: the more she sinks, the more the superdelegates will want to be on the side that's winning. What's in it for them if they stick by her busted flush?

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Beer
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:41 AM

Good for you Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:45 AM

I believe the ol' gal is flat punched out... She has been flailing so hard at Obama that she, if she were able to steal the nomination, wouldn't have anything left in the tank to campaign against her buddy, John McWar...

Obama,however, is like the Energizer Bunny... This is strength that I believe more and more folks are seeing in him...

Anyone who thinks he isn't tough outta just get in a tag team match with the Clintons... If he wasn't tough before he he gfot in the ring with them he's tough now...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:51 AM

Jim,

Your remark to Azizi was beneath you.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:12 AM

Just watched/heard Olbermann's remarks. WOW!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:06 AM

Very lengthy C & P is discouraged.....but so are mean-spirited responses.

Please folks...limit C&P to excerpts, then link to the full text. Those who are willing to read it all will go there.

...and PLEASE, respect the basic concerns of those who care enough to find the links. If you don't agree, there are more polite ways to say so.

...remember, BOTH overlong C&P and personal attacks are subject to editing or deletion!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: number 6
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:20 AM

"the most segregated hour of American life occurs on Sunday Morning"

.... a snippet of Obama's speech ... occuring now as I type this.

I think we should thank Hillary ... the more she pounds Obama, the more he hones his skill ... the skill he will require to take on the McCain/Bush/Cheney machine for winning the election and the skill he will ultimately require to run as president.

Yes ... a big thanks to Hillary.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:42 AM

Maybe see if she needs a couple of pillows while you're at it, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM

Guess my thread was ruled "Anti Obama".
It's gone!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 12:28 PM

There was a time I would have spoken out on your behalf. That time has passed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 12:33 PM

Watching from the sidelines with no particular interest in either candidate:
If Obama allows the Clintons to set his agenda, he will lose. Rather than repsond to their every attack, he needs to keep reiterating his message.
The Clintons are not out of this, not by a long shot. I have to admit I am amused at ole Bill complaining about "myth and mugging". He was the master of myths during his two terms. "I did not have sex with that woman." is probably the most famous.

Jim Lad - if you object to Azizi's cut and paste, say so. Most here agree. If you use it as a jumping off point for a personal attack, you will get your wrist slapped. It is neither necessary nor appropriate.
Now if you would like a pillow, I am sure I can promote one for you.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 12:37 PM

Hillary promoted her own myths - I gagged when I saw the picture of the two of them dancing in their bathing suits. Ah, the loving, loyal wife who knew nothing of his wanderings but took him back. How sweet.

The devastating photo of Eliot Spitzer's wife reminded me of this hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 12:58 PM

In terms of overall appeal, Obama outpolls Clinton 45% to 29%, and her total appeal numbers are falling while his are rising. But even more striking is how the polled population assigns character traits to each of the Democrats. Barack Obama substantially outpolls Hillary Clinton on every positive trait, while Clinton surges past Obama on every negative.

(Forbes 3-18)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: GUEST,Voice of Truth
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:40 PM

Well let's see what the polls are after the public assesses how Obama stayed with his minister for decades, a man who made such mean spirited, self serving and anti patriotic remarks about the US right after 9-11, not to mention his attacks on Israel. How many excuses can one person have for keeping an allegiance to such a hatefilled character is beyond me. And I believe it is beyond the ken of the majority of voters. Obama's starting to unravel in front of the public, and he hasn't even been subjected to McCain's campaign yet. It is also coming out that Obama's aids admit they find him cold, removed and arrogant, a host of character traits which, it seems, has only been lost only upon his fervent supporters.

I wouldn't count the Clintons out yet, and indeed, Hillary is the ONLY chance the Democrats have of beating the Republicans this coming November. Obama will never win the election. Even if Mudcat deletes every negative thread about Obama from here to eternity.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:45 PM

And the worrying thing is that the "wonks" (a term I find offensive as demeaning those who take an actual interest in the most important thing, policy) still don't know Obama's exact intentions.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:45 PM

For as long as I have been here, Azizi has consistently started threads, loosely based on racial issues and at the first opportunity, pounced on unsuspecting newbies who have done nothing more than offer their unbiased opinions. The list of apologies she has extracted while perpetrating these ambushes would fill a library.
Obama is using much the same tactics.
I despise those methods.
Now to the point of the cutting & pasting. If you have nothing to say, say nothing. These long, long threads of articles from other websites do nothing but interrupt the flow.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:54 PM

Valid point. I agree. State your own opinions and leave a link to the source if you choose.

I don't get involved in a lot of the political threads but agree that Azizi brings in or maybe sees race as an issue in a thread when I don't. Address the issue with her and lay off the personal attacks.
Now about that pillow...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:56 PM

"Hillary is the ONLY chance the Democrats have of beating the Republicans this coming November. "

Oh, it's settled then. The VoT has spoken.

Opinions are like assholes: everybody got one.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:06 PM

Bruce: I did answer your earlier query, ever so politely but the moderator of the day took the thread down.
Deleting anti Obama posts has become a bit of an epidemic around here of late and is probably why the balance tips so heavily in his favour.
Fortunately, free speech is alive and well on most other forums.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:10 PM

pounced on unsuspecting newbies who have done nothing more than offer their unbiased opinions.

Jim Lad:

I am sorry if you have gotten bruised in the give and take around here, but I think your characterization is unfair; you need to take some responsibility for why your unbioased opinions don't come across looking unbiased. I have probably misinterpreted your remarks several times, and I think it may be because you appear to make no effort to look like you are viewing both sides of the discussion, or even considering another point of view. This is just a tad short of civilized dialogue. I know because I have tried both ways.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:11 PM

Hear, hear Jim Lad! All too true about the censorship around here.

They claim that personal attacks are the only things that get deleted, yet the way the Mudcat regulars attack me, you, anyone who dissents from the conventional Mudcat wisdom, censor censor censor.

See Peace's post above.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:12 PM

"How many excuses can one person have for keeping an allegiance to such a hatefilled character is beyond me."

If we pick and choose quotes over a period of time it can be shown that anyone is a hatefilled character. Even yourself I might add. And we all know you're a paragon of sweetness and light.

"It is also coming out that Obama's aids admit they find him cold, removed and arrogant, a host of character traits which, it seems, has only been lost only upon his fervent supporters."

No links or direct quotes? I thought not. And you won't be able to provide any either will you? We're supposed to take your word for it because you're the "Voice of Truth"? Sure - got it.

"Hillary is the ONLY chance the Democrats have of beating the Republicans this coming November"

Actually I'd say the opposite is true. Obama has a much better chance. That's why republicans were crossing party lines in Texas to vote for Hillary - because Republicans figure she will be easier to defeat if she up against McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:14 PM

Jim,

There are about five anti-Obama threads (extant) on Mudcat now. Mostly the work of a single poster ranting against him (and almost anything else). I am sorry to have missed your reply. I harbour you no ill-will.

#############################################################

Obama's speech was beautiful. I HOPE he is the next president. The unsupported presumption above (by someone megalomanically named Voice of Truth) that only Hillary could beat McCain is a cheap scare tactic, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:15 PM

Guest,Guest: I take it you object to the statement that everyone has an asshole. Would anal sphincter please you more? Twit.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's poll numbers down.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:16 PM

I've seen Peace's attacks on you. I've also watched a few others who seem to be able to get away with saying anything.
Still, one of the worst pm's I've ever received, did come from a moderator.
That about said it all for me.