BS: Will Obama Win???

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:51 PM

He's still trying to win the war in Vietnam? Come on, now - there is enough about McCain's positions on various issues to dislike, without adding that one. McCain has always been a leader in the US government on regularizing relations between the US and Vietnam and putting the past behind both nations. He told USA Today in 2004: "I'm sick and tired of re-fighting the Vietnam War. And most importantly, I'm sick and tired of opening the wounds of the Vietnam War, which I've spent the last 30 years trying to heal."

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:17 PM

But he is stuck on "winning" and declares we are and will continue to "win" in Iraq. As if we, as interlopers and after hundreds and hundreds of years of regional conflicts, can do anything to bring peace, esp. in just a few years. In that sense, I would think he may trying to make up for the loss in Viet Nam.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:22 PM

I'm just making a guess, Art, as to the subconscious factors that may be driving John McCain. I'm not saying that he consciously wants to continue fighting the Vietnam War, but it's very common for career soldiers who served in a war that ended in failure to carry in themselves the bitter determination to wipe out that old stain of defeat with a future victory...against someone.

So I'm suggesting that McCain's bellicose attitude toward all the "foreign enemies" he sees out there in the world is driven to a great extent by the old ghosts of a failed war in which he served. He wants to win it this time. There is no way to win it this time, because the present war has no realistic objectives (other than controlling various oil sources on foreign ground...that's semi-realistic, at least). It also has no definable boundaries, since the "enemy" this time is not a nation-state and is not confined to any specific geographical area.

The enemy, in fact, lives inside the neocon American mind...not out there in the world somewhere. The neocons ARE the enemy they look to destroy when they attack others, and they ARE the enemy of America and the world in general. The Islamic terrorists are the wasps that come out of a nest when the neocons choose to go and attack it with a baseball bat. The wasps are small, but they can sting, and you'll never kill them all with that baseball bat...you'll just make one hell of a mess of the general area with it, that's all. Everyone in the vicinity will pay the price.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:33 PM

Hmmm...Little Hawk, I have been contemplating saying something like that for months now, but was afraid I'd just get jumped on for implying that McCain had a 'hidden agenda' or was lying to himself about his reasons for continuing our presence in Iraq.

   This is not a 'winable' war in the common sense, and Bush's assertion that we CAN win it is a pretty weak argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:37 PM

LH, I was a soldier in Vietnam...McCain was just a squid.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:48 PM

Sure, Art, I'll buy that.... (grin)

But what is John McCain in his own mind?

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:40 PM

Well, yeah, LH, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head... I would bet that John McCain will get upwards of 80% of the Vietnam vet votes for the reasoning you have laid out as...

...Vietnam continues to take its toll on US...

But nothing happens in the past so voting for McCain thinking that he will have "Johnny come marchin' home again" in victory to the cheers of all is a pipe dream not founded in reality...

Johnny ain't comin' marchin' home again... That was a long time ago and now is now... I'm sorry for all my brothers who even today are so messed up over Vietnam and I'm sorry for the generation that is doing the brunt of the fighting in Iraq because when I look at the burned out Nam vets today I see these folks in a couple decades dealing with the same situation...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Alice
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:02 PM

not an arab?

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:16 PM

Militarily speaking, what is a "squid"?

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:25 PM

McCain's world view is of a jigsaw of adversarial maneuvers predicated on force. He was born to it, trained into it, pressured into by his upbirnging and traumatized into it so deep he cannot get out by his experiences in 'Nam and the validation they received from a "grateful nation".

I believe his thinking is canalized into militarism as the primary face of nationalism, and into nationalism as the sole face of patriotism, and patriotism as the only test of character.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:41 PM

That is a masterful summary, Amos, as well as a masterpiece in brevity. You have described exactly what the problem is with John McCain, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:30 PM

A squid is a sailor.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:11 AM

McCain was a flying squid, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM

Well, squids are jet propelled - "ink-squirts make squid swim for their lives"

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Alice
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:55 AM

Grandmother sues McCain for hate speech

"A Kansas City grandmother is suing John McCain and Sarah Palin for promoting hate speech. Mary Kay Green told KSHB that some statements at McCain campaign rallies terrify her as much as the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

"I know the secret service is on this case, but John McCain and Sarah Palin can stop some of this by a statement that they abhor these death threats and will not tolerate them," said Green."

read the rest here

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:49 AM

It's a bit late for that now. If you light a fire, just saying "I didn't mean to light that fire" doesn't put it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Alice
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:27 PM

Two ACORN offices vandalized and death threats to Obama being left on their voice mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Alice
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM

"The clips and email headers have been edited only to remove personally identifying information, like the name of the Cleveland-based ACORN staffer who "is going to have her life ended," according to one email.

"Hi, I was just calling to let you all know that Barack Obama needs to get hung. He's a fucking n*****r, and he's a piece of shit. You guys are fraudulent, and you need to go to hell. All the n*****s on oak trees. They're gonna get all hung honeys, they're gonna get assassinated, they're gonna get killed."

link here
ACORN deluged with hate and threats

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM

Looks like the civil war has already started, and McCain and Palin are responsible for starting it. What a disgraceful pair.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:58 PM

"Even the president of Iraq has been notified of the coming domestic "crisis" in the US." Donuel

Where is your documentation for that statement, Don?




This was reported about 3 weeks ago on MSNBC as part of a story about Bush adopting the timeline that Obama first suggested. Then it was discovered by reporters who interviewed the president of Iraq in early September and the he said that he was told by the US State Department in writing that the agreed upon 2010 completion of US troop pull out was being changed to 2011 due to US domestic problems.

.............
One one hand we could look at how we honor our own treaties with our Indian population or we might see an ominous possiblity of an expected US domestic problem in 2009-2010 due to economic collapse or civil unrest due to any number of reasons.

The interpretation of our communique' to the Iraq president is up to the reader.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM

The Civil War that I have feared is not merely due to the campaign tactics of of Atwater or Rove or McCain advisors but the NEOCON military industrial agenda which does indeed have an exit stategy that is bolstered by their domestic spying, secret ppolice, homeland security, intelligence agency czar and legislation of Patiot Act #1 and #2. Their exit strategy is to complete the take over of the US and not allow any impedence of their plan by something so bottom feeding as a populace movement. Neocons feel emboldened by all their new tools, troops, laws and media control.
IF they actually activate a code RED for the country is still uncertain in my opinion.

The word Neocon is merely a kinder gentler sounding title rather than neo-fascists.

On a micro scale...
The tension that was nearly unbearable between my lower middle class neocon neighbors and myself which used to havea rather sparse exchange of ideology and opinions has moved into a new phase of total and complete non communication. This total silence by the now extremely "concerned" Republicans is a red flag.
When I say silence it does not include their rumors of slander which I have personally heard the GOP captain across the street describing people of different opinons as being "..he's insane, I mean it, I'm serious he's insane!"

It is the first step in dehumanizing people who are to be punished, imprisoned or executed beneath the banner of partiotism, religion and Pro Americanism.

We need a Civil War like a hole in the head, unfortunately the Neo Republicans have plans for both.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM

'populist'


I heard on npr
3,500 early votes in DC have already disappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:23 PM

Yes, Donuel, "neo-fascist" is the real term for it. I've seen this coming for decades now, the attempt to build a neo-fascist New World Order. Oddly enough, it is primarily the English-speaking world that is behind it this time....not the Germans, Italians, and Japanese...they learned their lesson last time, in the ashes of WWII. The English-speaking countries have yet to learn the full price of so grand a folly.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: heric
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM

There will be no civil war and no fascist world order. Everybody take a chill pill.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM

civil war and fascist world order extremeists will continue a more heated political argument should Obama win.

civil war and WASP fascism need not be an all out drop your job and pick up a gun full blown war, it will most certainly be a smoking pot that will continue to simmer and smoke.

The NWO or neocons or whatever name you wish to call it is now positioned with virtually all the money, all the weapons, media and governmental infrastructure to do the job.

Their best strategy would be to allow Barack a year or two before jumping on a scape goat to blame a great tragedy.
sorry I do not wish to be explicit.

OR

we all live happily ever after.

one of the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:54 PM

Oh, I keep hoping there won't, believe me...

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:07 PM

The last two Presidential elections have been decided by factors besides, and/or in additoin to, the ballot box.

The optimistic position is to believe that a more celar-cut Democartic majority will trump any such efforts this time around.

The more pessimistic stance is to believe that, by hook or by crook, a clear victory for Obama will not be disclosed, not matter how much machine-rigging or ballot-burning might be required.

Me, I don't know what the hell to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:10 PM

Nor do I. That's why I say we are forced to wait and see what happens (even while we do whatever can be done).

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:21 PM

Can't resist a racist dig, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: kendall
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:23 PM

Will he win? Not if Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh have their way. The desperation is really showing now, even McWar is yelling, "Socialist"

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:27 PM

Justin:

Your bigotry and hatred are verging on the subhuman. I suggest you get an education.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:29 PM

Here's a YouTube clip I just posted in another thread above the line . Watch past the first ugly minute (from a town called Bethlehem, God help us), and it gets pretty beautiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:07 PM

Bobert,
I'm such a poor predictor I hesitate to guess. A week or so before the 2000 election I predicted Al Gore would win, and think I so predicted here on the Mudcat. In 2004, I predicted John Kerry would win. In both instances I was wrong. Oh well, I'll go on and take a chance. I think Obama will win.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:12 PM

I predicted Al Gore would win You weren't exactly wrong there...

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:43 PM

Obama just went to Hawaii for some fun in the sun until Saturday and probably spend soe campaign funds.

(I thought I might try to beat Riginslinger to the lieing punch)


truth is...
Barack's grandmother is seriously ill in Hawaii.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:57 PM

That's a powerful video.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Alice
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:59 PM

Thanks for the video link (I hope you clicked on the digg logo).

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:22 PM

The video is divisive. A person can choose not to vote for Obama without being a klansman.

You can watch marginalized fringe people on either side to your heart's content, but it is not good for you or the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:26 PM

Just to show there is some sanity in all the this madness ....

muslims for McCain

I'm not posting this for any endorsement for McCain ... but to show that there is not all madness and hate in the campaign.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:41 PM

You can watch that video, and tell who is being divisive.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Alice
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:45 PM

In today's news:

Cullowhee, N.C. -- The carcass of a black bear that had been shot in the head was found wrapped in Barack Obama campaign signs on a North Carolina campus on Monday.

Western Carolina University Campus Police Chief Tom Johnson said that officers were called about a dead bear on campus at about 7:45 a.m.

When the officers found the bear carcass, they said it was covered with two campaign signs that had been taped together.


http://www.wyff4.com/cnn-news/17764161/detail.html#-

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:48 PM

I honestly believe it is destructive to go down this path. Look up. Those people can not and will not control us.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:54 PM

I like our boring Canadian election campaigns ... in fact they where so boring people didn't even know there was an election going on.

Maybe all of this hateful, violent nature kind of crap can be blamed on the election carnival going on way, way too long ... you know, how kids get sort of unruly and out of control after being at the midway for too long. Too much cotton candy, too many fast rides, too many chances taken at the games booths, to much noise, too many shifty carnies, too much money spent.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:13 PM

Darn right it goes on way too long. Furthermore, the primary battle is a very bad idea, because it causes the people in each party to damage their own people very badly before the main event even begins. That is very foolish and counterproductive.

And it is not the way it's done in most parliamentary systems at all. Most of them establish the party leaders at times quite separate from the national election process...not as the first act in a 2-part melodrama based on character assassination, rumor, and innuendo.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:19 PM

Kinda like shaking a pop (soda for you yanks) bottle for too long ... AND THEN POPPING TH LID.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:20 PM

RCP Average        10/13 - 10/19        --        --        49.8        44.0        Obama +5.8
CNN/Opinion Research        10/17 - 10/19        LV        3.5        51        46        Obama +5
ABC News/Wash Post        10/16 - 10/19        1336 LV        2.5        53        44        Obama +9
Rasmussen Reports        10/17 - 10/19        3000 LV        2.0        50        46        Obama +4
Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby        10/17 - 10/19        1211 LV        2.9        50        44        Obama +6
Hotline/FD        10/17 - 10/19        789 LV        3.5        47        42        Obama +5
Gallup (Traditional)*        10/17 - 10/19        2340 LV        2.0        50        45        Obama +5
Gallup (Expanded)*        10/17 - 10/19        2271 LV        2.0        52        43        Obama +9
IBD/TIPP        10/15 - 10/19        1086 LV        3.0        47        41        Obama +6
GWU/Battleground        10/13 - 10/19        1000 LV        3.5        49        45        Obama +4

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:20 PM

.. what popping the lid is ... November 4th.

No matter who wins there is going to be some pretty angry people.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:25 PM

oh Gawd ... there goes Amos again and his messy unformatted statistics.

Can't you import them into an Excel spread sheet and post them as an attachment?

biLL :)

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:28 PM

I didn't get the message from the video with the clan people in it that it was suggesting that everyone who votes for someone other than Obama is a racist. The message I got was that there still is a residue of racism in this country that has oozed into our election process in this election, and that those of us who think Obama should be our president should stand up to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Obama Win???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:30 PM

Thanks to the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine, and the rise of Right Wing (formerly) AM radio, the campaign season vitriol now goes on 365/24/7. When exactly is it NOT campaign season in the USA? All government activities are now aimed at the campaign, not at the best interests of the nation.