Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??

Subject: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:34 PM

(I have also posed this question on the fRoots forum. I am trying to track down an intriguing little postscript to the history of the folk revival)

The controversy over Ewan McColl's attitude to people singing songs from other cultural backgrounds rolls on and on. Now, Peggy Seeger, in a bid to set the record straight, gave an account of how she started all this off, by jeering at an unfortunate English(??) skiffler. Here are Peggy's own words:

"It was that Cockney lad singing Leadbelly who started the rock rolling downhill. Was it 1960 or so? Yes, it was that poor fellow whose rendition of 'Rock Island Line' reduced me to hysterical laughter one night. I was literally doubled over in my seat, gasping. I had to be taken out of the room."

This a reference to a folk club night, by the way, not to Lonnie Donegan's record. Now, I find this event an intriguing bit of folk history. The man who shouted "Judas" at Bob Dylan has recently been identified and interviewed. So, can anyone supply a name for the unfortunate young chap so humiliated by Peggy Seeger?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:40 PM

I would assume Lonnie Donegan{sp?}

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:42 PM

No, it wasn't Lonnie Donegan. He wasn't hanging round folk clubs in 1960! But a lot of his imitators were.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:53 PM

The article from which this comes is well worth a read - it was originally in Living Tradition. I appreciate it is a slight thread drift since the person in question was totally distraught and never went to a folk club again (in which case they are unlikely to be reading this) or went on to be come a famous folk (or other singer) in which case it didn't matter.

But you are right Greg - nice to know who it was. They must be aged about 66 now.

http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/edtxt39.htm

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: john f weldon
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:59 PM

Geez, folkies can be such a bunch of fussbudgets.
Lonnie Donegan's "Ain't No Cane on the Brazos" is about as inappropriate as you can get, but it sounds great.
And how did Shenandoah become a sea shanty? Some sailors liked it, I guess?
I've heard Texans sing sea shanties and claim they were songs from "back home".
Once, years ago, in the former Yugoslavia, a Croatian group attempted "Knock knock knock on Heva Do."
Maybe I chuckled too, but music doesn't have to be too serious.

Poor Cockney bugger; I hope he's still singing.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: irishenglish
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:01 PM

Well, Donegan's hit was in 1954, and from the quote you used, wouldn't it have been a little odd that she hadn't heard the song before, considering it was (possibly) 1960, six years later? Also if she was listening to an imitator of Donegan in 1960, I would have to think that even that would sound dated, because unless she completely had her ears shut, rock had already developed by leaps and bounds by 1960. I really wonder therefore if she has the year wrong, and it really was Donegan, which would account for him being in a folk club. I'm only speculating, but if an imitator of Donegan was still doing a cover of Rock Island Line in Donegan's style six years later, I doubt he had much of an audience!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:09 PM

I have no quarrel at all with a cockney lad singing Leadbelly songs as long as they aren't done with a cockney accent. If you really want to laugh your socks off at how ridiculous this might sound then I suggest listening to someone that came along later, Billy Bragg doing Woody Guthrie.
Listening to a middle class girl from the northern states singing Sourwood Mountain would probably have been quite amusing to folks in the Appalachians at the time of which we speak.
Personally I prefer hearing the "original" recorded versions but at that time very little was available. I am pretty sure that most of the shall we say succesful British folkies of today that came up in the sixties did their fair share of Leadbelly/Guthrie/Broonzy material.
I do remember in Peggy's days at the Ballads and Blues Club that Rory and Alex McEwen used to do Leadbelly and Gary Davis material and I never heard her laugh then.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:19 PM

WEll, an obvious point is also that Peggy's brother Pete used to sing Leadbelly songs and he's not exactly a black member of a chain gang, is he? But I am not after the rights and wrongs of the argument, just the facts. Who was the guy?
   On a different tack,Irishenglish expresses surprise that anyone would still be singing Rock Island Line in 1960. Well, I can inform him that there are plenty of people still singing Rock Island Line in pubs in 2008, and long may they continue to do so!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:28 PM

and the song (L. D.`s version) is used in a car commercial right now...now that is funny: advbertising a car with a train song...

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: irishenglish
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:28 PM

Greg, I know they are, and good on them-it's a classic song. My point was if someone was doing a Doneganesque version of the song 6 years after his own hit, in a Cockney style,it might be a little tiresome. And still, unless she never watched tv, or listened to the radio at all, why the laughing fit for someone who was copying Donegan? Wouldn't she have come across Donegan's song by that point if the story is as she tells it?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:36 PM

I take your point,irishenglish. Yes, you would think she would have been pretty familiar with English people singing American songs in fake accents in 1960.But perhaps the guy had a really really really funny accent? Anyway, be that as it may, she says that it wasn't an isolated incident that just passed, but that it gave rise to a general discusssion, which actually included the hapless singer. Which suggests to me there should be plenty of people who ought to remember this incident, and can shed some light on it. So i do want to find this chap, if only to ask him what he thinks about singing Rock Island Line now.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:45 PM

Pete Stanley (who took over Peggy's banjo class after three weeks of lessons when she had to leg it after her visa expired( was more than probably there. Call him. (If you don't have his contacts, e me offlist.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Little Robyn
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:45 PM

Peggy doesn't say it was the first time she heard it but I guess it was the worst version, to make her laugh.
Big brother Pete knew Leadbelly so chances are she knew him too and even if she hadn't heard him sing it live, would no doubt have heard a recording of the original.
Back about 40 years ago we had a lad in our local club in NZ, who was a trier - but terrible.
He wore bright pink socks and tapped his foot all the time. We nick-named him Thumper or Pink Socks and although we tried to be polite, it was impossible to take him seriously. He bashed his guitar and sang like Dylan on a bad day. Lots of people were imitators then, trying to sound like Dylan or Donovan, Joan Baez or Judy Collins. I sounded more like Shirley Collins but not intentionally.
Most of the time we tried to sing like Pete or the Weavers.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:39 PM

Peggy doesn't say she heard it for the first time.

She also says:

I am North American.

Woody Guthrie, Jean Ritchie, Big Bill Broonzy, Leadbelly, et al, used to come to our house in Washington. I knew what the song should sound like and the manner of delivery and the insertion of Cockney vowels into a southern USA black prisoners' song just sounded funny.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Ferrara
Date: 05 May 08 - 09:19 PM

Peggy has also said (at Augusta Vocal Week) that the "sing in your own language" rule, which I believe she described there as "sing songs from your own tradition," had a very positive side effect.   A lot of members of the club, people like A.L.Lloyd, stopped singing American folk songs and started looking for more British songs, and it motivated them to look into their own heritage of folk songs and source singers.

Actually Peggy and I frequently differed on this issue during her ballads class. For instance, on whether it's acceptable today for an American singer such as Judy Cook to sing British ballads (I said among other things that if Judy dropped her repertoire of British songs it would be the world's loss ... but I admit I'm a strong Judy Cook fan...); and whether it's wrong to use the word "wee," as in "little wee son," in an American ballad. I argued that Almeda Riddle used "little wee son" in at least one song she insists she learned as a child, and you can hardly say Almeda's singing isn't authentic....

Peggy did sing a Scottish song, Robert Burns' version of "Hap an Roe," at a late-night song swap. It was a treat to hear it, too, very well sung. But she said she wouldn't ever sing it in a performance situation.

None of this helps with identifying the singer with the Cockney accent of course.

Rita F

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Alex Dale
Date: 06 May 08 - 06:16 AM

Just a very tiny point of order to something IrishEnglish wrote earlier. Lonnie Donegan's version of Rock Island Line was a hit in 1956, not 1954 as stated. Not that it makes the slightest bit of difference to your point. I'm just a bit surprised scowling headmistress Easby, The One Who Knows Everything, didn't pick you up on this.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: irishenglish
Date: 06 May 08 - 10:08 AM

Oops, I stand corrected. 1956, of course. Thanks for pointing out my error.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 May 08 - 10:19 AM

Anyone with a copy of the Guinness Book Of Hit Singles will be aware that Rock Island Line entered the charts in January 1956. All (except aspiring smartass Guest: Alex Dale) realised that this hadn't the slightest bearing on the topic and refrained from mentioning it.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 06 May 08 - 10:50 AM

Well, whatever the outcome of the argument, she was in really good voice last night in Okehampton and singing songs from her american side, explaining that is what she does and how, when she was with Ewan, she tried singing 'English' songs but she now feels uncomfortable with them.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Alex Dale
Date: 06 May 08 - 12:50 PM

Thanks for the compliment Diane but I could NEVER aspire to your levels of smart-arssdom and pedantry. I did realise that the date of Lonnie's hit had no bearing on the point in hand - which is why I said as much. What's up Diane, is your eyesight going? Didn't you read that bit? I only brought it up because you haven't had a row for a couple of posts and I thought you'd be getting withdrawl symptoms.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:12 PM

Withdrawl symptoms? That's GWB not DE.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:25 PM

Mr Dale (Guest) has two orthographically incorrect, entirely off-topic posts to his name, each of which is some kind of attempt to make incomprehensible and inappropriate reference to me. I do not know this person, nor does he appear to have anything to contribute to a discussion about accents in singing. Clearly a troll that's lost both a sense of direction and whatever smidgeon of a brain he might have possessed at birth. If such a person has a need to address me (and I cannot conceive of one), my name to them is Ms Easby.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:04 PM

I think this is all a bit silly. After all - who will cast the first stone. breathes there a soul so dull that he believes he's never buggered up a song in a folk club?


Its the film stars you gotta feel sorry for. Poor old julia roberts in that michael Collins film, and Nick Cave sounding like a real tosser in the jesse james film, Neil diamond's rotten version of you are my sunshine in the jazz singer. The evidence is there for all eternity.

I bet they rehearsed to get that bad.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Nerd
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:05 PM

In irishenglish's defense, Donegan did record Rock Island Line in 1954.    July 13, to be exact. It didn't enter the charts until about a year and a half later, but someone with Peggy Seeger's interests would probably have heard it before it became a hit.

So his point would be valid, except for one detail: Peggy didn't move to Britain until 1959. Before that, she spent much of the previous 5 years, first in Holland, then traveling and touring all over the world, including China and Russia. She wouldn't have been likely to hear Lonnie Donegan there!

Given that she was only guessing it was "1960 or so," what she really was saying, I think, was "quite soon after I moved to England."

Peggy occasionally visits Mudcat, I think, so maybe she'll pop by and set us straight. (But I think she's probably too polite to reveal the name of the cockney Lead Belly!)

PS, I guess I just snagged the pedant's crown...

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:26 PM

Hey Nerd,

Sorry to be a pedant but the one detail which you point out is incorrect sort of. Peggy was in and out of the UK for about a couple of years before she was able to settle here. The reason that she had to keep leaving was she did not have a resident's visa/work permit or whatever the equivalent was. I am sure that the exact details and dates are pretty well known by others who were around at the time.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Nerd
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:32 PM

Thanks, Hoot. That's why I suggested she might set us all straight at some point. I doubt there is anyone who will remember just how much she was "in and out" in those years, except herself. Maybe not even she will!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:58 PM

I have no quarrel at all with a cockney lad singing Leadbelly songs as long as they aren't done with a cockney accent. If you really want to laugh your socks off at how ridiculous this might sound then I suggest listening to someone that came along later, Billy Bragg doing Woody Guthrie.

Can't see anything particularly absurd in people singing songs from abroad in their own accents. After all, nobody suggests that the Dubliners should have put on a Norfolk accent to sing the Wild Rover.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 08 - 06:30 PM

The Wild Rover?Norfolk?,surely the line no nay never,suggests a Scottish origin.Oh and to continue the fred drift,who was the man that shouted Judas.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 May 08 - 07:01 PM

who was the man that shouted Judas?

John Cordwell. Or Keith Butler. Depending on who you believe.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 May 08 - 07:07 PM

. . . and The Wild Rover . . . C# says he found it in Norfolk.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 08 - 07:28 PM

Nothing particularly Scottish about the word "Nay". Standard English alternative to "No". Currently more used in the North of England than down South.

"Let Your Yea Be Yea; and Your Nay, Nay"

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:00 AM

Hey, this pedant thing is fun. Can anyone play? To be both pedantic and off-topic: Julia Roberts may be to blame for her geographically-wandering accent in Michael Collins (her character is supposed to be from good old midlands Longford) but the stunningly out-of-period singing was contributed by Sinead O'Connor.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:04 AM

Round II:

>Let Your Yea Be Yea; and Your Nay, Nay

Kevin - doesn't "nay" actually mean "Yes" in Greek? No idea how you write/spell it - George P, any input?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:15 AM

And, IIRC, Bonnie the word for no is something like "Ochi" which can sound like OK.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:35 AM

Are we to assume that because Cecil Sharp found it 'Wild Rover' in Norfolk that it didn't exist prior to that date? and was unknown elsewhere?
Like so many songs/tunes We cannot really say where it originated can we?

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 May 08 - 06:03 AM

It does however help dispel the myth that The Wild Rover was made up in the back bar of O'Donaghues circa 1966.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 07 May 08 - 07:43 AM

Just for the record... Rock Island Line was sung twice(performance and encore) in the Cumberland Arms, Byker on 26 April this year, to considerable acclaim.   

For the past few years, a group of like-minded Tynesiders have hosted a come-all-ye skiffle session on the Saturday nearest Lonnie's birthday.   A capacity crowd turns up, and they seem to have a great time. There are usually some grey-beards there, but many of the participants look as though their parents could not have been born when Rock Island Line was first in the charts. Skiffle lives!

And on the question of inauthentic accents - I wonder what Ms Seeger thinks of Dick Van Dyke's attempt at Cockney in Mary Poppins?

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 08 - 01:19 PM

neigh,said neddy the dickey.and went off to sing some dickey music.
GUEST hootennanny says ,just because c# found it in Norfolk,it doesnt mean it was written there,
Quite.
in Norfolk the term nay is very uncommon,words like boor,and rood,and suffin cold,and was the bottom dropped out etc.The Wild Rover,clearly originated further north,probably named after one of the WilsonFamily.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 May 08 - 03:18 PM

Dick,once again you mis quote. I did not mention the word "written". I was suggesting only that the song probably pre-dated Sharp's hearing it in Norfolk. To assume that the song must have originated there because that is the first time it had been noted is treading on thin ice.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:53 PM

yes, and that is what I am suggesting too.
however all traditional songs were written by somebody.
if the song predates Sharps hearing it in Norfolk,it didnt originate there.
IMO it probably originated further north,The song is a composition perhaps 18/ 19 century.
[once again you misquote]have I misquoted you before.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:50 AM

Cap'n B said, in part:

if the song predates Sharps hearing it in Norfolk,it didnt originate there.

Now, there is a non sequitur. If you chose to insert "necessarily" before "originate", then that's fine.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:22 AM

I think I am less offended by people singing songs in their own accent (even if it is not the accent of the originator or populariser of the song) than I am by people putting on fake accents (good or not).

But one too good to miss: --

I say, I say, I say! How does a bee with a cleft palate sound?

...

Mzzzzzzzz!

(gets coat, wondering why SWMBO is so hung up on whether people have been properly introduced to her)

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Max
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:53 AM

Interesting and very relevant conversation here, one that I am very fascinated by.

I discovered, probably like much of my generation, traditional and early folk, through revival artists and rock acts of the 1960s. Robert Johnson from Led Zeppelin, Leadbelly and Woody through Bob Dylan, etc. So I heard the imitators before I heard the originals. Much like my children, see cartoon and stuffed animals before they see the real things.

I enjoy listening to and performing black folk or Carolina or piedmont blues the most, and I am a middle class white man. That said, I make an effort to not pretend to be a southern black man or a laborer, rather I make an effort to understand the performer or character in the song. And very simply make sure the emphasis is on the right beat. A common mistake of white folks , or Europeans for that matter, when singing black songs is the emphasis on the ONE instead of the TWO. Surely there is a lot more to it than that. Phrasing is a big issue too.

I rolled with laughter when I heard Taj Mahal lecture a German crowd about how they were clapping on the wrong beat.

Pete Seeger was able to handle both the beat and phrasing issues. Probably because of spending all the time he did with Leadbelly, Brownie, Libba etc, and that he was thoughtful about it. You can clearly see and hear it when he played with Brownie McGee, Big Bill Broonzy and Gary Davis.

Lonnie Donegan did sound kind of funny, but I give him a pass because of his understanding of Skiffle and his enthusiasm. He was having fun. He wasn't pretending to be anything he wasn't.

An example of doing it all wrong that was profound in my opinion was Peter Paul and Mary's "Trying to Win", "If I Had My Way" and "Stewball".   I have a lot more trouble with those as I do Lonnie's "Rock Island Line". They stripped any everything of its ethnicity and made it all bland. I would think Peggy would agree that PP&M did more damage than a cockney accent.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:57 AM

UNCLE DAVE O.ThankyouSubject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:53 PM

yes, and that is what I am suggesting too.
however all traditional songs were written by somebody.
if the song predates Sharps hearing it in Norfolk,it didnt necessarily originate there.
IMO it probably originated further north,The song is a composition perhaps 18/ 19 century.
[once again you misquote]have I misquoted you before.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 08 - 01:20 PM

I always rather like PPM's Stewball - that guitar part going c to dminor. pretty cool. or coolly pretty!

PPM and Lonnie doing damage....? they were musicians, not Ted Bundy.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Max
Date: 08 May 08 - 01:49 PM

Damage, yes. If I would have heard Peter, Paul & Mary's version of "The Cuckoo" before I heard Doc Watson And Clarence Ashley's, I would have never started the mudcat. How's that for damage?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Little Robyn
Date: 08 May 08 - 03:59 PM

Wow Max!
I heard P.P.&M.'s Cuckoo years before I heard anyone else.
I guess that's why I didn't start mudcat!
I'm very glad you did.
Cheers,
Robyn

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:58 PM

Some PPM stuff was twee, but there used to be some stuff on Youtube that could still remind one of the force they could produce.

Better that than Sacha Baron Cohen asking "Is it 'cos I's black?"

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 May 08 - 05:08 PM

The Greek word for no is Oxi, pronounced like ochkee.

"Sorry to be a pedant but the one detail which you point out is incorrect sort of. Peggy was in and out of the UK for about a couple of years before she was able to settle here. The reason that she had to keep leaving was she did not have a resident's visa/work permit or whatever the equivalent was. I am sure that the exact details and dates are pretty well known by others who were around at the time.",

I was told that Alex Campbell 'married' Peggy, so she could obtain UK residency. Can't provide any evidence to back it up, just something somebody told me many years ago.


G

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Newport Boy
Date: 08 May 08 - 05:25 PM

In the Living Tradition July/Aug 1997, Ewan McVicar says re Alex Campbell:

The first time I met Alex was in 1961 in a North London folk club where I sang a Scots republican ditty called Maggie's Wedding. Alex was much taken with the song, and asked me to come and sing it at his midnight gig that night in the basement of the Partisan Coffee bar in Soho, where one of the residents was a very youthful Long John Baldry.

Alex had just returned from being a busking blind blues singer on the streets of Paris, and had briefly and platonically married Peggy Seeger so she would not be deported from the UK, but Alex's eclectic approach was worlds away from Ewan MacColl's purism.

Full article here

Phil