BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Alba
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 03:40 PM

Here's a link regarding the subject of Persian or Farsi Language McGrath. The debate
Best of Wishes
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 05:59 PM

The university made if very clear that there were a number of Farsi speaking students and faculty on hand to check up on the interperter.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 07:47 PM

Sorry if this thought has been posted already; I didn't read through the whole thread. But has anyone else noticed that Bush and Ahmedinajad are the same cocky, arrogant smirking smartasses with different religions, and that they need each other as counterpoints to keep the fear levels up among their own citizens?

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 07:49 PM

The mistranslations that matter are the ones carried by the media. Th corrections never manage to catch up with these.

Here is a piece about the most famous mistranslation in this context, in which Ahmadinejad was quoted as having called for Israel "to be wiped off the map", where a more accurate translation was "the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" - ie "regime change".

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: pdq
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 07:56 PM

THIS POST DEALS WITH WHY AHMADINEJAD IS THE IRANIAN LEADER

"...businessmen told the Shah that Pres. Carter wanted a contract, previously awarded to Brown & Root to build a huge port complex at Bandar Mahshahr, to be cancelled and as a personal favor to him to be awarded to the visiting group at 10 percent above the cost quoted by Brown & Root.

The group would then charge the 10 percent as a management fee and supervise the project for Iran, passing the actual construction work back to Brown & Root for implementation, as previously awarded. They insisted that without their
management the project would face untold difficulties at the US end and that Pres. Carter was "trying to be helpful". They told the Shah that in these perilous political times, he should appreciate the favor which Pres. Carter was doing him."


             you may not like it but you should read it

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: heric
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:41 PM

That's an interesting article from Steele. But he starts out saying that his chosen translation is "vanish," but concludes with a stronger argument in favor of "eliminate." Eliminate is a particularly nasty word, especialy, as Steele says, one is looking for the speaker's intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Mike Miller
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 12:13 AM

I would have thought that my friend, Mr. Greenhaus, would have been more aware of the realities of protest. In today's atmosphere of antipathy, even the most apathetic will react to personal threat. (That is the real reason The US got into this war and the reason why so many approved. For the first time, we were threatened by acts of terror. We were mad, scared and determined to fight. Say what you will, it was that very real threat that got GWB reelected)
But some of us feel more threatened than others. Jews have recent memories of massacres and freindly indifference. To a Jew, a national leader who rails against Jews, denies or discounts the Nazi Holocost, and openly supports Hammas, is a very real threat. I, personally, don't want anyone silenced but I can, well, understand why many would. It is like Lester Maddox being invited to speak at Grambling. I imagine the students might make their displeasure known to one and all. So, although I agree that everyone has, or shoud have the right to free speech, I find the scolding of those who protested out of realistic fear, have been given a bad rap by this forum.

                   Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 12:15 AM

Lehrer Report had quite a bit on Ahmadinejad tonight. I imagine I'm not the only one who heard it. Lehrer had 2 experts on Iran--including one who had dual US-Iranian citizenship.

What I thought was most interesting is how the West has played along with what Mr. A wanted--a very high profile. But in fact he's not the most powerful person in Iran--the top religious leader is. And not only that, he's not popular with much of the intelligentsia--who are embarrassed by his "loose-cannon" statements, such as denial of the Holocaust. And he's not even very popular with "the man in the street" who sees that he has in fact not carried out his election pledge to see that ordinary people reap the benefits of Iran's oil.

The Iranian-American expert predicted that Mr A is not likely at all to win re-election--in, I believe 2009. Made a lot of sense.

So it seems if we can keep Mr Bush and the loose cannons surrounding him from the incredibly stupid move of a strike on Iran--to allegedly "take out" nuclear facilities--and if nobody else does it---the Iranians themselves will remove him---by election-- and primarily for economic reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:33 AM

The "wiped off the map" quote has been disputed, but it occurs in the official Iranian translation, and when he has been asked about it he has refused to withdraw it as translated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4384264.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 05:34 AM

The United Nations Secretary General has a world class team of interpreters at his disposal.
He was sure of what Ahmadinejad said about wiping Israel away.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4384024.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 08:39 AM

The measure of how widespread Holocaust denial is in Iran--i.e. not at all--can be seen in the fact that Iranian TV recently had a multi-part docudrama--loosely based on fact, I understand--as to how an Iranian diplomat managed to save quite a few Jews in World War II. The series was a huge hit.

There is a sizable number of Jews in Iran today.

What the regime is trying to do is to draw a contrast between the plight of the Jews in WW II with the behavior of the Israeli government now--which they believe is aggressive.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Mike Miller
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:13 AM

As Col. Potter used to say, "Horse hockey". The Arab world has been trying to eradicate the Jewish state since 1948, long before any Israeli government "agression", in fact, long before there was an Israeli government. Their opposition to the state of Israel is based on religious and cultural claims, not moral indignation. (Don't be hoodwinked by talk of "Palestinian rights". The Palestinians have been the cheap labor of the Arab world for centuries. They never owned their land. They worked it for absentee Egyptian and Syrian landlords. The first opportunity the Palestinians had to have their own country was in 1948 and it wasn't provided by their Arab brethren, but by the UN.) I, usually, ignore the convenient amnesia that affects the left where Jews are concerned. I am a lifelong liberal but, sometimes, I feel like my gang has deserted me.
I understand that Jews feel more threatened than most of you guys. It is, after all, our tuchises on the line. But, then again, since the attacks on the Twin Towers, maybe a few more folks have gotten on board the reality train.
You may not equate Ahmadinejad with Hitler, but I do. Well, you know how touchy those Jews are.

                Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:15 AM

Mike, IMO, Ron Davies is on the side of the angels.

Shalom

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:20 AM

JOhn:

As a regular contributor to the store of defamations of Mister Bush here, I am moved to respond to your post.

At least for my own part. I have no sympathy for Ahmadinejad. But I believe in civility to any visitor.

Columbia lowered the bar on that standard.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: pdq
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:25 AM

"The Iranian-American expert predicted that Mr A is not likely at all to win re-election--in, I believe 2009. Made a lot of sense."

Problem is, by the time he leaves the office, Iran will have nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:28 AM

And that worries you?

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: pdq
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:03 AM

Nah. A little nukie never hurt anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:31 AM

I'm going out on a liberal limb here to make this statement. I'm not going to argue about it and I don't care what CarolC wants to clobber on a regular basis. It's just an opinion:

It is the habit and the business of leaders of smaller states at odds with big nations like the U.S. to say things that piss off the leaders of those big nations.

I happen to agree with A. about the Palestinians--they are a colonized people, their land taken by a spontaneous influx of Jews from around the world, and the "nation" of Israel happened with little reference to their preferences. (Whose bright idea was this to begin with, anyway?) The Jewish "natives" had been away for over 2000 years and the current occupants got kind of used to living an autonomous life there. Then the new western-leaning U.N. lets a nation form on top of them. Guess what? It pisses off the Palestinians and their neighbors. Duh. They're still angry.

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't exist, it's there now, but it's too big and too pushy. They are bad neighbors to everyone around the area and remind me of the saying one sees on booklets for new parents in the U.S.--"Children learn what they live." Israel's Jews were mistreated in Europe, so they have turned around and mistreated the Palestinians they encountered in the new land they chose to occupy, creating lots of prisons and ghettos. There is a simple reason why Israel is as solid and prosperous and inflexible as it is --it is the U.S.'s defacto 51st state. They are propped up by the U.S., defended by the U.S., and their currency is the U.S. dollar. What do you think the neighbors are going to see when they look at the relationship, except that this is a huge American colonizing imposition on the Middle East?

It seems that what Israeli Jews learned in Europe is what they're doing now to Palestinians, minus the concentration camps. Their leaders don't seem to see this. Every time things start to calm down, some wag in Israel thinks of some new law or wall or resource restriction or settlement policy to set it all off again. It's like they must continually inspire violence in order to portray themselves as "victims" in the world, to justify their existence (and current behavior of the last 60 years). This isn't anti-Semitic, by the way, this is anti colonization in this context. As a resident of a nation that sits uncomfortably on top of land taken from colonized Indians, I am well aware of the ironic parallels.

Translations are very important, and if carefully nuanced versions of Ahmadinejad's words had been available, perhaps it would be harder for people to uniformly dismiss him as a Persian zealot. I don't agree with a lot of what is going on in Iran, or the Middle East, and there are Arab/Moslem/Persian cultural blinders in place that appear ridiculous to U.S. residents. But hey, look at Bush. His blinders are so huge, this fool would continue to blow Iraq to wee bits, pumping in billions to do it, to support oil and Israel, but he won't pay for health care for American children. He simply doesn't have a grasp on reality, he's totally into this stupid war of his. I wonder if editorials appear in the foreign press that look at this strange habit of expenditure? War first, poor citizens' needs a distant second. I'll probably have to keep wondering, because the American media isn't doing anything to help us understand the viewpoints of the rest of the world. They hardly matter.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:38 AM

The best way to get Iran to follow the example of its next door neighbour Pakistan, and its slightly more distant neighbour Israel, and seek to develop nuclear weapons is to threaten it with attack.

And the best way to discourage that would be for the USA (preferably jointly with the EU, and Russia ) to guarantee that there will be no attack on Iran, and that any such attack would be treated as a hostile act by the guarantors. And make that guarantee conditional on Iran not developing nuclear weapons.

And if it really was just a matter of preventing nuclear proliferation that would happen. But its not.
...........................

It's worth pointing out that the Scottish Nationalists hope to bring about a situation in which there will no longer be any United Kingdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 12:42 PM

SRS, without any shadow of a doubt the dumbest, most ill-informed load of twaddle I have ever read in my life. It damn near beggars description.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Alba
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 01:38 PM

Some one can only dream to post remarks here that come close to being as interesting as SRS's views on certain topics.
Then again to some, perhaps, it seems easier to quite nastily belittle someone else's post when one cannot find a way to counter their opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 01:45 PM

It's an opinion. What's to counter.

BTW, the Israeli monetary unit--their currency--is the sheqel, not the US dollar.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: pdq
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 01:49 PM

Facts trump opinions every time. Always have and always will.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 01:50 PM

depends on whether the Rook is high or low.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:07 PM

Facts trump opinions every time.

That should be true. Unfortunately it doesn't always work out like that - for example those Iraqi WMDs were opinion, not fact, but... And there is good reason to believe that the same may well be true of that Iranian nuclear weapon programme.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:10 PM

It was cowardly to insult Mock mood Ahm mad at dad at Columbia U.

It would have been better to simply introduce the front man for Iran as the man who was selected by Imans and simply say that in the spirit of free speech we hope that we can give you sufficient rope...

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:23 PM

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


The problem is, it was the Allies ( of WW I ) that set up the JEWISH HOMELAND of Palestine. The Arabs of that region were given THEIR homeland (Transjordan), and, incidently, the borders of Turkey, the states of Iraq, Syria, and Lebenon were all defined by the same treaty. So, if we want to get rid of Israel, we can also, with the same justification, remove those states as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:27 PM

Look at the San Remo Conference before you start making claims about the Mideast.

It is NOT the fault of the Jews that the Ottoman Empire lost the First World War, no matter how much you want to blame them.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:32 PM

San Remo Conference

(April 19–26, 1920), international meeting convened at San Remo, on the Italian Riviera, to decide the future of the former territories of the Ottoman Turkish Empire, one of the defeated Central Powers in World War I; it was attended by the prime ministers of Great Britain, France, and Italy, and representatives of Japan, Greece, and Belgium.

The conference approved the final framework of a peace treaty with Turkey which was later signed at Sèvres, on Aug. 10, 1920. The Treaty of Sèvres abolished the Ottoman Empire, obliged Turkey to renounce all rights over Arab Asia and North Africa, and provided for an independent Armenia, for an autonomous Kurdistan, and for a Greek presence in eastern Thrace and on the Anatolian west coast, as well as Greek control over the Aegean islands commanding the Dardanelles. Rejected by the new Turkish nationalist regime, the Treaty of Sèvres was replaced in 1923 by the Treaty of Lausanne, which voided previous Allied demands for Kurdish autonomy and Armenian independence but did otherwise recognize Turkey's current boundaries.

During the Conference of San Remo, two "A" mandates were created out of the old Ottoman province of Syria: the northern half (Syria and Lebanon) was mandated to France, the southern half (Palestine) to Great Britain. The province of Mesopotamia (Iraq) was also mandated to Great Britain. Under the terms of an "A" mandate the individual countries were deemed independent but subject to a mandatory power until they reached political maturity. When King Faysal of Damascus opposed the French mandate over Syria, he was expelled by the French Army.

An Anglo-French oil agreement was also concluded at the San Remo conference (April 24–25), providing France with a 25 percent share of Iraqi oil and favourable oil transport terms and stipulating in return the inclusion of Mosul in the British mandate of Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:51 PM

In case anyone cares...

Treaty of Lausanne

(This was what allowed the genocide of Armenians...)

(1923), final treaty concluding World War I. It was signed by representatives of Turkey (successor to the Ottoman Empire) on one side and by Britain, France, Italy, Japan, Greece, Romania, and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (Yugoslavia) on the other. The treaty was signed at Lausanne, Switz., on July 24, 1923, after a seven-month conference.

The treaty recognized the boundaries of the modern state of Turkey. Turkey made no claim to its former Arab provinces and recognized British possession of Cyprus and Italian possession of the Dodecanese. The Allies dropped their demands of autonomy for Turkish Kurdistan and Turkish cession of territory to Armenia, abandoned claims to spheres of influence in Turkey, and imposed no controls over Turkey's finances or armed forces. The Turkish straits between the Aegean Sea and the Black Sea were declared open to all shipping.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:07 PM

The genocide of the Armenians preceded the Treaty of Lausanne by some years, with 1915 being the most significant date.

That's a bit like blaming the Yalta Conference for the Jewish Holocaust.

It's good to try to get back to the history behind current events, but important to get it right when we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:17 PM

Yes, but this treaty acknowledged that the rest of the world would do nothing while the Turks continued to control Armenia and the Kurds.


The Holocaust has its roots in the pogroms of the 1880s onward-

1905: A week-long pogrom marking one of the bloodiest periods in Russian Jewish history begins, spreading to dozens of towns and villages throughout Russia. Hundreds of Jews are killed, thousands are wounded and over forty thousand homes and shops are destroyed in the rioting.

three great waves of anti-Jewish rioting in the Russian Empire in 1881-82, 1903-06, and 1919-21

During the Civil War of 1918-1921, 2,000 pogroms left an estimated 100,000 Jews dead and more than half a million homeless.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:22 PM

note the comment "The massacre of 1915, which lasted until 1923"...


Abdul Hamid II ruled from 1876 to 1909. The first wave of executions of Armenians came in the 1890's under his rule. In1896, the Turkish government, headed by its bloodthirsty dictator, organized a genocide against Armenians, which resulted in some 300.000 Armenian deaths. Another genocide against Armenians was carried out later in 1908. Although it resulted in less Armenian deaths, Turks were getting their job done by slowly rupturing the Armenian vigor.

       Apparently, being happy with the results of previous genocides, on the April 24th of 1915, taking advantage of the outbreak of World War I, Abdul Hamid's successors -the Young Turkish government headed by Enver Pasha, Cemal Pasha and Talat Pasha-set out to implement the long-planned program of extermination of the Armenian population of Turkey. The massacres began in Constantinople with the arrests of 250 Armenian intellectuals consisting of politicians, journalists, poets, lawyers, doctors etc. They were sent to jail, where, later, they were all killed. Two months later, on June 15, 20 politicians, who were members of a political party called "Hnckak" were publicly hanged on false accusations of planning a revolution and a terrorist attack against the government. For several days thousands of intellectuals, politicians, teachers, priests etc. were killed all over the country. Thus they got rid of the "head" so Armenians wouldn't be able to organize any resistance.

       Throughout the whole country Christians and Muslims were being ordered to hand over any weapons they had. Yet, the authorities were not so demanding to Muslims. When Armenians would take their weapons to the police to hand them over, they were arrested on accusations of planning a revolution and their weapons were seized as proof. Henry Morgenthau, the U.S. ambassador in Turkey at that time, describes in his writings how men, who were taken to prison were tortured. He writes that As a preliminary to the searches everywhere, the strong men of the villages and towns were arrested and taken to prison. Their tormentors here would exercise the most diabolical ingenuity in their attempt to make their victims declare themselves "revolutionists" and to tell the hiding places of their arms. A common practice was to place the prisoner in a room, with two Turks stationed at each end and each side. The examination would then begin with the bastinado. This is a form of torture not uncommon in the Orient; it consists of beating the soles of the feet with a thin rod. At first the pain is not marked; but as the process goes slowly on, it develops into the most terrible agony, the feet swell and burst, and not infrequently, after being submitted to this treatment, they have to be amputated. They would pull out his eyebrows and beard almost hair by hair; they would extract his fingernails and toe nails they would apply red-hot irons to the breast of their victim, tear off his flesh with red-hot pincers, and then pour boiled butter into the wounds. He also writes: "The gendarmes would nail hands and feet to pieces of wood---evidently in imitation of the Crucifixion, and then, while the sufferer writhed in his agony, they would cry: ' Now let your Christ come and help you!'"

       Soon the hatred escalated and became a cause for even bloodier events. A Turkish officer named Lieutenant Sayied Ahmed Moukhtar Baas, who was often being ordered to deport Armenians from different cities, testifies that he was ordered to deport all the Armenians of the city Erzrum, and that being a member of the Court Martial he knew that those deportations meant massacres. In his testimonies he also says that in the city of Trabizond, while being deported, men were separated from their families, and later killed. Women were also killed and many children were stabbed and thrown into the sea near Trabizond and a few days later their bodies were washed up on the shore at Trabizond (Baas).

       In many cities tens of thousands of Armenians were being killed. In the city of Van almost 60.000 Armenians were killed, their belongings were looted and their homes burned. In many cases Armenians would be the ones to be burned along their homes. Tens of thousands of Armenians were also killed in the cities of Erzrum, Kars, Adana, Igdir, Mush, Istanbul, Sari Ghamish, Harpurt, Marash, Sivas, Bitlis and in many other cities. "Killer battalions were organized, and in every significant town and city party functionaries were at work to ensure the execution of directives and to remove weak-hearted and recalcitrant officials" (sscent.ucla.edu). Armenian men, who previously served in the Ottoman army, were turned into road laborers (Morgenthau). They were being sent to various parts of the Empire to construct roads and railways in thousands. Turks would wait until Armenians would get tired to ensure that they wouldn't be able to resist, and then they would either attack or simply shoot them. Many of the victims were ordered to dig their graves before being shot. In many cases Turkish soldiers would cut off their head, put them on a stick and carry them as if they were their trophies.

       Early in July, 2,000 Armenian "amélés"---such is the Turkish word for soldiers who have been reduced to workmen---were sent from Harpoot to build roads. The Armenians in that town understood what this meant and pleaded with the Governor for mercy. But this official insisted that the men were not to be harmed, and he even called upon the German missionary, Mr. Ehemann, to quiet the panic, giving that gentleman his word of honor that the ex-soldiers would be protected. Mr. Ehemann believed the Governor and assuaged the popular fear. Yet practically every man of these 2,000 was massacred, and their bodies thrown into a cave. A few escaped, and it was from these that news of the massacre reached the world.

       Henry Morgenthau, the U.S. Ambassador in Turkey at that time writes: "Most of us believe that torture has long ceased to be an administrative and judicial measure, yet I do not believe that the darkest ages ever presented scenes more horrible than those which now took place all over Turkey."

       Unlike their predecessor Abdul Hamid II whose agenda was to kill, kill and only kill, the Young Turks, perhaps caused by increasing pressure from outside, now decided to begin the implementations of new tactics, which wouldn't seem so horrible in the eyes of other countries. They thought of a new plan of getting rid of Armenians. They began to deport hundreds of thousands of Armenians, mostly women, children and elderly to the Syrian Desert and the Mesopotamian valley, where Armenians would either starve to death or die from thirst. Though part of this area was once the scene of a flourishing civilization, for the last five centuries it has suffered the blight that becomes the lot of any country that is subjected to Turkish rule; and it is now a dreary, desolate waste, without cities and towns or life of any kind, populated only by a few wild and fanatical Bedouin tribes. Yet for the better part of six months, from April to October 1915, practically all the highways in Asia Minor were crowded with these unearthly bands of exiles. They could be seen winding in and out of every valley and climbing up the sides of nearly every mountain moving on and on, they scarcely knew whither, except that every road led to death. Village after village and town after town was evacuated of its Armenian population, under the distressing circumstances already detailed (Morgenthau)."In these six months, as far as can be ascertained, about 1,200,000 people started on this journey to the Syrian desert "(Morgenthau).

       As the British news agency "The Independent" describes in its September 27, 1915 issue "The Depopulation of Armenia": "Thousands of families have been driven from their homes to starve upon the roads. Towns and villages have been divested of their inhabitants. Many are being put to torture to force them to renounce their Christian faith. Women are interned in the harems and children are sold as slave."

       Often, while on their way to be "executed," they would be attacked by Turkish and Kurdish tribes, who were previously being notified that a caravan was approaching. Sometimes the wives of those tribesmen would join the attacks with butcher's knives in their hands, in order to gain the merit in Allah's eyes, which comes from killing a Christian (Morgenthau).
       The hot sun of the desert burned their scantily clothed bodies, and their bare feet, treading the hot sand of the desert; they became so sore that thousands fell and died or were killed where they lay. Thus, in a few days, who had been normal human beings became a stumbling horde of dust-covered skeletons, looking for scraps of food, eating any offal that came their way, crazed by the hideous sights that filled every hour of their existence, sick with all the diseases that accompany such hardships. When they would reach to a river, Turkish gendarmes, who were "accompanying" the caravans, wouldn't let them drink, or they would tie women and children up and throw them into the river Every caravan had a continuous battle for existence with several classes of enemies---their accompanying gendarmes, the Turkish peasants and villagers, the Kurdish tribes and bands of Chétés or brigands. And we must always keep in mind that the men who might have defended these wayfarers had nearly all been killed or forced into the army as workmen, and that the exiles themselves had been systematically deprived of all weapons before the journey began.

       The massacre of 1915, which lasted until 1923, resulted in more than 1.5 million Armenians killed, a nation driven out of its historic homeland and scattered all around the world. Yet, till this day, despite all the evidences in the U.S and British archives that contain more than 30.000 pages of articles, eyewitness testimonies of foreign officials and survivors, the Turkish government denies that a genocide against Armenians ever occurred. The Turkish government even accuses Armenians of killing innocent Turks.

       ". . . the Armenian massacre was the greatest crime of the war, and the failure to act against Turkey is to condone it . . . the failure to deal radically with the Turkish horror means that all talk of guaranteeing the future peace of the world is mischievous nonsense" (Theodore Roosevelt). Until this day major world powers have failed to hold the Turkish government responsible for the Genocide that was committed against Armenians. But some Armenians took justice into their own hands and took revenge. Talat was killed by an Armenian nationalist-Sogomon Telerian in 1921 in Berlin. Enver Pasha was killed by Soviet forces in 1922 in Tajikistan. As for Cemal Pasha, an Armenian in Tiffs killed him in 1922. Perhaps the failure of major world powers to hold the Turkish government responsible for the Genocide committed against Armenians became a cause for Hitler to say, "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" at the outset of the Jewish Holocaust. Perhaps this failure was a cause for Armenians to be killed in the Azerbaijani cities of Baku, Sumgait and Kirovabad, where women were being stoned, stripped naked, burned publicly; newborns were thrown out of the 6th floor of the hospitals and men's eyes were pulled-out. Perhaps the failure of major world powers to punish the Turkish government was the cause for thousand to be killed in Rwanda, Kosovo, Bosnia and in other places. Perhaps this failure will be the cause for many other sufferings.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:28 PM

"Perhaps the failure of major world powers to hold the Turkish government responsible for the Genocide committed against Armenians became a cause for Hitler to say, "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" at the outset of the Jewish Holocaust. "

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:31 PM

SRS, I agree. Going farther, I see no hope for a Palestinian nation.

From the outset, the object of the Israeli zionists (read settlers and supporters from the U. S., Canada and Europe) has been to take control of the entire region. Unspoken, but on-going. All that is left is a small piece of land-locked territory on the west bank and possibly the detached Gaza strip. Nothing on which to base a nation.

Nothing is being done to ameliorate the situation of the Palestinian refugees or relieve Palestinian poverty except small amounts of foreign aid. It has fallen to the Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, and others to host those refugees who already have been forced out of their homeland. In the remaining West Bank, towns like Ramallah have become little more that refugee camps under the occupation.
Lebanon, once a bright light in the Middle East, has been disrupted by Israeli policies; Hamas and others fill the vacuum.

Frustration, hopelessness, impotence and dispair breed terrorism.

A strong nation to counter the Israelis is needed in the region. Iran may be the future hope, if allowed and encouraged to develop.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:41 PM

Q,

Try looking at what is posted...

"In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland."


There is, and has been since 1923 a PALESTINIAN HOMELAND. NO Jews were allowed to settle there- UNLIKE Israel, which has a large Arab population.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: pdq
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:51 PM

beardedbruce,

If you keep putting the truth out for people to see, you are doing the best you can.

Some will listen, some will not. Nothing more you can do.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:06 PM

Q,

" towns like Ramallah "

My Christian Palestinian friends lived in Ramallah- UNTIL they were driven out by the Moslims... ( 1948- you know, when the Arab League tried to wipe out all the Jews and take over the Jewish Homeland?)

The Moslims quite effectively removed most of the Jews and Christians from the land THEY had control over- It was only the Jewish state that allowed others to live in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:10 PM

Q,

"Lebanon, once a bright light in the Middle East, has been disrupted by Israeli policies"

I think that perhaps Syria and Hezboallah had something to do with it, if one looks at the facts. Or would you be willing to accept constant mass-bombardment rocket attacks as acceptable ( to other than Jews, of course)?

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:20 PM

"The Holocaust has its roots in the pogroms of the 1880s onward-"


The attitude which some folks here echo--may they fart lumps--is older than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:32 PM

SRS, without any shadow of a doubt the dumbest, most ill-informed load of twaddle I have ever read in my life. It damn near beggars description.

Teribus,

I'm so glad to hear you say so! I'd hate to think I said anything you agreed with. I am vindicated.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:39 PM

Deploring the failure of the world to take proper notice of the Armenian holocaust, and to largely collude in a cover-up is perfectly valid, and it is fair to include the events round the Treaty of Lausanne in that - but to say "this was what allowed the genocide of Armenians" is in fact misleading.

It blurs the facts about the genocide, and that tends to help those who would deny it ever took place.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:45 PM

Perhaps my wording should have been "This is when the genocide of the Armenians was defined by the British and French as acceptable treatment."

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:46 PM

"The conference approved the final framework of a peace treaty with Turkey which was later signed at Sèvres, on Aug. 10, 1920. The Treaty of Sèvres abolished the Ottoman Empire, obliged Turkey to renounce all rights over Arab Asia and North Africa, and provided for an independent Armenia, for an autonomous Kurdistan, and for a Greek presence in eastern Thrace and on the Anatolian west coast, as well as Greek control over the Aegean islands commanding the Dardanelles. Rejected by the new Turkish nationalist regime, the Treaty of Sèvres was replaced in 1923 by the Treaty of Lausanne, which voided previous Allied demands for Kurdish autonomy and Armenian independence but did otherwise recognize Turkey's current boundaries. "

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 05:23 PM

Still, without any shadow of a doubt the dumbest, most ill-informed load of twaddle I have ever read in my life, Stilly River Sage. I know that Stilly River is in Washington State, coming out with that crap the sage part of the name must refer to the plant.

Read through some of BB's posts you might just learn something.

"for example those Iraqi WMDs were opinion, not fact, but... And there is good reason to believe that the same may well be true of that Iranian nuclear weapon programme." - MGOH on facts trumping opinion.

Whether or not Iraq possessed WMD plus all the other things that the UNSCOM Inspectors were concerned with between 1991 and 1998 was subject to analytical evaluation by those inspection teams and their findings were reported to the United Nations Security Council in January 1999. What they suspected that Iraq still had was considered and informed opinion certainly, which most found highly likely. But what was fact Kevin, was that the inspection teams (UNSCOM & UNMOVIC) could not state with any degree of certainty that Iraq had destroyed all its WMD, agents, stockpiles, etc, etc.

It may well be true that Iran is not pursuing a programme to obtain nuclear weapons, that their programme is totally innocent and aimed at the peaceful generation of electricity. One can ignore the questions relating to why they kept their uranium enrichment facilities secret from the IAEA. Why they have gone for the type of centrifuges that enriches uranium to weapons grade as opposed to lower cheaper fuel grade. Having gone for that type of centrifuge why the number of them sufficient for rapid cascade enrichment.

If the President of the Islamic Republic of Iran states that his country does not seek nuclear weapons that must be totally credible. After all he has stated that women in Iran are the most liberated on earth and that there are no homosexuals in Iran - and we all know that those two statements are gospel truth - don't we Kevin?

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 05:25 PM

One might also wish to research Jews in the USA who were forced from their homes during the Civil War. For many, the treatment was akin to that that Japanese Americans and Canadians got at the hands of their respective governments. The Jews lived with that for many many centuries. Now they have a country. Tough shit for anyone who doesn't like it. Now, nobody will fuck with them. And if that had been the history of your people you'd wanna be the toughest sonuvabitch on the block. Well, they are. AND THAT'S THAT.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: GUEST,Pest
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 05:35 PM

Then Peace clicked his heels three times and kept repeating "There's no place like Home" and the next thing he knew he woke up and THAT WAS THAT.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: bobad
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 05:44 PM

Not brave enough to use your name eh, pest.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 06:24 PM

Re: the currency question. There may be an "official" currency, but I think you'll find that in actuality there are a lot, if not mostly, U.S. dollars in regular use as well.

Read through some of BB's posts you might just learn something.

Now that is a joke! Read BB's stuff and you see shoddy sources and hair-brained conclusions. But I can see why you consider him a good source.

As I said, I expressed an opinion. Israel has been the spoiled child who can do no wrong in the eyes of many U.S. politicians but is, in fact, a troublemaker who gets away with it because it has a big bully to hide behind.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 06:33 PM

BB is also good at moving the discussion way off course to suit his agenda.

He might be interested to know that Paris Hilton has decided to go to Rwanda to call attention to their needs. No one seems to have pointed out to her that she's a dozen years too late. Maybe this year's post DUI trip should be to Darfur.