BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:12 PM

Anyone giving a course on "How to silence someone with whom you disagree"?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM

No worries Bobad.

Your inability to support your slander and you're inabilty to step up and be specific is recorded clearly.

Equally your inability to refute or come clean is recorded clearly.

False accusationsn no evidence and something to hide.

If you're happy with that then so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

EdT,

Your columnist states - "The point to make against them is not that there are worse countries than Israel, which receive nothing like the same level of opprobrium – even though there are and they most certainly do not – but that Israel's critics ignore the uses of racism and forget the lessons of the 20th century."

This is true sometimes.

It is also true that Israel uses racism and seems to have ignored the big lessons of the 20th cetury too.


However, there is another important reason why many people from the centre right to the left wing in the west are very vocal about Israels actions in Gaza.

It is this: Israel is meant to be on our side.

Israel is meant to be our ally.

We in the UK and in the USA who have a problem with the way our governments treat Arabs, also have a problem with the way our friends treat Arabs.

I, as a UK citizen, am appalled that my government and its friends seem to have so littlwe regard for human life.

My team misrepresents me about as far as it is humanly possible to do so.

My team - the allies - team UK, USA, Israel ...

We, the last bastion of human rights and democracy - we judge feudal archaic and undemocratic countries the world over who aren't on our team, like China, Burma, North Korea etc etc.

We say to them "No" the way you treat your people and the territories you occupy is wrong and you must stop.

Only we can't say that.

If we say that then we are hypocrites.

Because our governments kill more people in foreign countries and inflict more human rights abuses than any of 'the other team' do.

We in the UK expect much better from our government than this.

We expect much better from our ally the USA.

And we expect much better from our ally Israel.


Team UK, USA, Israel, claims to represent me around the world.

What's more, it spends my taxes doing so - even Israel.


Well I would like to be clear that I do not support the actions of my team around the world.

I think my team is corrupt, dishonest, murderous, racist and lacking a conscience.


In response to my well founded criticism, my team opens old sensitive wounds and tells lies.


I despise my team and I hope it gets replaced.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:50 PM

I have to confess that I find the 'opinion' piece by Nick Cohen both disturbing and disturbed

The best I can say about it is that I go along entirely with the assessment and criticism of his extreme recent anti-Islamic rhetoric by Mehdi Hasan writing in the New Statesman


"Nick Cohen, formerly of this parish, has devoted his latest Observer column to the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the siege of Gaza. I can't help but respond to some of his weird and wonderful claims.

He has (since) become monomaniacally obsessed with Islamism, Islam and Muslims, and an ardent defender of the United States, the UK and Israel. He has described the British army as the "armed wing of Amnesty International" while castigating Amnesty itself for being an "evil corporation".


Perhaps Cohen should read the Israeli press before he sounds off about anti-Semitism and the Jewish state. Here are four headlines from Haaretz last week:
Ari Shavit's "Fiasco on the high seas"
Reuven Pedatzur's "A failure any way you slice it"
Yossi Sarid's "Seven idiots in the cabinet"
Gideon Levy's "Operation Mini Cast Lead"

Does Cohen expect us to believe the staff of Haaretz are Jew-haters? And is Nelson Mandela, who described Palestine as "the greatest moral issue of the age", a lazy anti-Semitic liberal as well? "

Nick Cohen's Nazi confusion

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:56 PM

Not only that, but we (those of us in my country, at least), are being forced to support what Israel does with our tax dollars, which makes us complicit. And on top of that, we have to fight against people, like the guy who wrote that opinion piece, who are actually supporting Israel's racism and human rights abuses. There is no other country besides the US that is guilty of as much racism and as many human rights abuses as Israel, that gets so much support in countries like the US and other countries in the West.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:10 PM

Mr. Cohen also conveniently ignores the fact that all of Israel's neighbors, including Hamas, have said they are willing to accept Israel's existence within the pre '67 borders. But this characterization of his that all of Israel's neighbors want to kill Jews is a libel, and it arises from his own racism and hatred of Arabs and Muslims, and it has no basis whatever in truth.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:33 PM

Some findings from a 2008 study on coexistence in Israel from the John F. Kennedy School of Government of Harvard University

•    A great majority of both Jewish citizens (73%) and Arab citizens (94%) want Israel to be a society in which Arab and Jewish citizens have mutual respect and equal opportunities.
•    68% of Jewish citizens support teaching conversational Arabic in Jewish schools to help bring Arab and Jewish citizens together.
•    77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world.
•    More than two-thirds of Jewish citizens (69%) believe contributing to coexistence is a personal responsibility; a majority (58%) of Jewish citizens also support cabinet level action.
•    Arab citizens and Jewish citizens both underestimate their communities' liking of the "other."
•    Urgent action on coexistence in Israel is desired: 66% of Jewish citizens and 84% of Arab citizens believe the Israeli government investments should begin now, and not wait until the end of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

http://content.ksg.harvard.edu/leadership/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=511&Itemid=115

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM

There you go again. Pretty much nothing in that last scribe of your is true. You mis-state the position of Hamas and you ascribe motivations to those you do not know purely as an ad-hominem attack "I disagree with them therefore they are racists, therefore what they say is wrong, therefore I don't need to spend a lot of time on logic, analysis, and reasoned argument."

Par for your course, CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM

Thank you Bobad.

That information supports my view exactly.

That the current Israeli administration rides roughshod, not only over residents of Gaza, but also ignores the views of many Israelis, including the views of many Israeli Jews.

It is also my view that the Israeli administration lies to Isrealis and non Israelis alike to justify its actions.


Your post confirms my view exactly that this issue is not about blaming ordinary Israelis, Israeli Jews or non Israeli Jews, it is about the outrageous calumny and brutality inflicted by the IDF on behalf of the Israeli administration.


This is a view shared by all those on this thread who have condemned IDF piracy in the meditteranean on 31st may, with the exception of one who has explicitly admitted anti-semitic feelings.

With the exception of that poster, there is no evidence of anti semitism in the posts of any other poster, there remain only inferences, insinuations and accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/reporter-disputes-israeli-account-of-raid/?scp=1&sq=Lede

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

CarolC

Unfortunately, I do not trust any government from any country, west east, or elsewhere that is elected to represent the interests of its citizens...let alone to represent fairness anmd good towards humanity, let alone the interests of the majority in a country. It matters little how many times governments change, it really does not change much. So, considering history, should one really be surprised when governments do not represent your (and my) interests and spend tax dollars as they see fit...regardless of the country?

Do I have hope that the Palistine-Israel issues will ever be resolved? No...especially if the two peoples cannot trust each other and rely on the politics of others to resolve issues that only they can resolve. Peace and harmony comes down to trust, which is lacking between the two groups. When you can put asise a bias, and look at the case of either side...either can be seen as making sonme sense....but, that alone, without trust, does not advance any solution.

It is nieve to believe that involving others, (countries, religeous groups, military groups, etc) with a variety of interests (not all to benefit either peoples), to come up with a solution of how these folks can live in harmony together. Regardless of what they seem, there are many with other agendas....some of those do not put the suffering of regular folks high on the list...unfortunately, sometimes the suffering can be seen as beneficial, to promote a longer term cause.

You say that "all of Israel's neighbors, including Hamas, have said they are willing to accept Israel's existence within the pre '67 borders".

Maybe so, but of the two that actually matter, Hamas presents the current stumbling block, not Fatah. To be really trusted by Israel, a first step is for Hamas to change its charter (especially article 22), which is the real test to recognizing Israel's right to exist. To me, that is the real stumbling block to trust and peace.

I am sure you and your like thinking who dominate comments on this thread will disagree with this,(and most anything that does not support your fixed positions) and quite agressively so. But, you can by mere numbers and agression, force folks away from commenting and sharing perspectives (when they differ with yours, collectively) in this thread, and, then you can have it to yourselves.   But, that, and, a one sided Mudcat discussion, does little to change or get anyone closer to reolving the issues (real, perceived or denied, as such), nor advance peace and humanity in the region for all.But, you may feel in some odd way that you won some type of a battle...if so, I wish you good with that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

There you go again, Robomatic, pretending that the proof of the falsity of your own statements has not already been posted several times right here in this thread. You seem to think that you can use the Jedi mind trick and just tell us something that is false and your having told us will be enough to convince us even despite all of the hard evidence to the contrary.

Par for your course, robomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

Ed T, pull up a chair, get yourself some popcorn, and watch what happens...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:16 PM

Robomatic,

Actually, Emmas article about cohen seems to support Carols view of him pretty well.

In addition, whether you trust them or not, it is true that Hamas have made the offer, twice in as many years, that Carol says they have made.

Just because you say she is making it up, doesn't make it so.

Her observations are drawn from evidence, not concocted out of feelings of loyalty.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:47 PM

Carolc<
Sometimes folks prefer if those with views do the popcorn/armchair thing in dicussions...I either participate in a meaningful way, or I contribute elsewhere....where it amtters more to all, But, I am still here.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:07 PM

Carol, I don't agree that we are witnessing the beginning of the end for the current Israeli administration.

Though Bobads stats would tend to support a view that most Arabs and jews in Israel are sick of the current status quo.

I think the current US and Israeli administrations will do their best to absorb recent events, cover them up and repackage them with the result that the current status quo will continue to drag out for an indefinite period.

I also think that the best chance for all the people of Israel and Palestine is for a continued and sustained continuation of the recent surge in large scale, coordinated, non violent action.

It is likely in the end not just to attract support from international quarters, but also to draw support away from the more extreme elements of Israeli and Palestinian politics.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:24 PM

My own take is that if they could somehow remove the religious influence from government then the will of the majority would prevail but I don't know how that can be done in a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:01 PM

Lox, your last post made alot of sense.
I fear that the route it is taking will eventually lead to a great conflict some day....that could end in the death of all the peoples who now reside there, and possibly nearby....and a scorched landscape.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM

""And that law suggests it is made up by those with the guns to justify anything they do. Such as sinking the Rainbow Warrior, torpedoing South Korean ships, sabotaging ships on their way to Cyprus, whatever. If it has any validity, surely it was devised to deal with gun running and suchlike aggressive behaviour, not prefabs, coriander and butter.""

Indeed Penny, and let's not forget using cloned passports, to gain access to a political opponent, in order to assassinate him on somebody else's territory.

And before anybody tries to claim that was a Mossad action, not supported by, or known to, the Israeli government, I have this to say.

IF the Israeli government doesn't know what Mossad is doing in its name, then it's time the government was replaced by a competent one.

I, however, do not believe for one second that Mossad operated illegally, on foreign soil, without the full knowledge, and under-the-counter support of that government.

Israel is out of control, and arguably it is that state which should be blockaded by the whole western world, before they start a war which we may have to finish.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:55 PM

Sometimes folks prefer if those with views do the popcorn/armchair thing in dicussions...I either participate in a meaningful way, or I contribute elsewhere....where it amtters more to all, But, I am still here.

That's nice, Ed. But nothing you say or do is going to change the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:04 PM

I also think that the best chance for all the people of Israel and Palestine is for a continued and sustained continuation of the recent surge in large scale, coordinated, non violent action.

This is precisely what will bring about the end of the present regime in Israel. Those who were close to the unfolding of events in South Africa during the struggle against apartheid say that the situation in Palestine/Israel is very close to where things were when the apartheid regime in South Africa was dismantled. And everything that the government of Israel does these days has the effect of speeding things up and awakening ever larger numbers of people to what is really going on. It's already snowballing. It took several years of civil society action to bring about the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa, but the end was very quick when it finally came about.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:07 PM

Would this be the "political opponent" to whom you are referring DonT?

Mahmoud Abdel Rauf al-Mabhouh (Arabic: محمود عبد الرؤوف المبحوح; February 14, 1960[1] – January 19, 2010)[2] was a senior Hamas military commander and one of the founders of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. He was involved in several actions against Israel, including the abduction and murder of two Israeli soldiers.[3][4] In recent years, Mabhouh was also alleged to have played a key role in forging secret connections between the Hamas government in Gaza and the Al-Quds Force of the Revolutionary Guards in Iran.[5]

Al-Mabhouh was killed in the five-star Al Bustan Rotana Hotel in Dubai on January 19, 2010, having arrived in the country earlier that day from Syria using one of his five passports, under the fake name of Abdul Raaouf Mohamed.[6][7] The Dubai police have voiced their suspicions that he was murdered in his hotel room, with accounts of the cause of death ranging from suffocation to electrocution. Controversy has arisen over speculation that his death may have been an Israeli government-sanctioned assassination, and allegations that the assassins used fraudulently obtained European[8] and Australian [9] passports. At the time of his death Mabhouh was wanted by the Israeli, Egyptian and Jordanian governments.[10]

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:18 PM

""Sorry, Netanyahu says it's a Jewish state. He demands that Hamas recognize it as a Jewish state. You're just flat-out wrong. STBU.""

Then Who Pray are all the Arab citizens of Israel who seem to be quite numerous.

Since Judaism is a religion, it cannot possibly be a nationality.

Use your eyes, then marshal the little common sense you seem to exhibit, and find a rational explanation for the fact that the world is full of Jews of every nationality, including Israeli.

The state of Israel might well claim to be a Jewish state, but it is patently not so.

YOU ARE MISTAKEN, and the main reason is that you choose to believe the words of one of the world's most corrupt and bigotted men, Netanyahu, who would cheerfully kll every Arab and Muslim in Palestine if he thought he could get away with it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:26 PM

"That's nice, Ed. But nothing you say or do is going to change the outcome"

I suggest that't true for all those here...hopefully it's not a surprise for anyone posting their opinions....otherwise they will likely be dissapointed

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM

""Or do you mean that Iran will use it's nuclear weapons on Israel, and kill off both those pesky Jews and those annoying Palestinians? Or will they just give the WMD to Hezboallah, for them to use on all those non-existant missles that Iran sent them through Syria?

Either way, the Palestinian people will suffer greatly, and possibly be destroyed by the other Arab nations. I don't know why you think that a good thing- I don't.""

Iran will use it's nukes. WHAT bloody nukes? It doesn't have any, nor the means to deliver them if it should succeed in making one or two.

ISRAEL, on the other hand, has plenty, and the malevolent will to deploy them, and the Iranians know that. They're not the stupid ragheads you would wish them to be BB.

""The palestinians will suffer greatly, and possibly be destroyed by the other Arab nations.""

They won't get that far if Israel has its way. They'll be destroyed by Israel. Would that suit you better BB. Would that, in your estimation, be a better idea?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:48 PM

""This is a miasma of intolerance in which the only oasis of democracy, tolerance, and freedom is constantly being set up as a fall guy in order to eliminate it.""

If this weren't so bloody tragic, I'd be rolling on the floor, howling with laughter.

I assume that the above conglomeration of absolute garbage refers to the state of Israel?

An oasis of fascism, racism, and discriminatory constraint, would probably be a more apposite description.

Ask the unfortunate residents of Gaza which of these statements seems, to them, to be closer to the truth.

Ask the survivors of the aid flotilla the same question.

Ask the relatives of the assassinated Hamas leader.

Ask anybody who has experience of the Israelis dedication to democracy (for Israelis only), tolerance (for Israelis only), and freedom (for Israelis only), whether they feel that it is Israel, or themselves, in greater danger of elimination.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:03 PM

""Would this be the "political opponent" to whom you are referring DonT?""

It would indeed, and a thoroughly nasty piece of work he was.

That does not, however, justify violating the territorial boundaries of a sovereign nation, using cloned passports of real people (which could, in some countries get the genuine passport holders a bullet in the head), and committing cold blooded, premeditated, murder.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:27 PM

Yet another viewpoint from Haaretz, French philosopher Bernard Henri-Lévy

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:32 PM

I suggest that't true for all those here...hopefully it's not a surprise for anyone posting their opinions....otherwise they will likely be dissapointed

Actually, that's not true. The more people expose the truth of what is going on, the more people wake up and decide to do something about it. When I started speaking up about it, in 2002, the situation was very different than it is today. The number of people who understood the reality of what has been happening was vastly smaller than it is now. And without people exposing the truth in the face of the propaganda, and making sure that the propaganda is not the only narrative out there for people to see and hear, this would not be the case. For a very long time, the propaganda was the only narrative that was seen and heard by most people in the West. This has changed dramatically now that the internet makes it much easier to cut through the propaganda and the hasbara. Speaking up is what creates change. And as my friend said, "silence = death".

The reason there is nothing you can do to prevent this from happening is because you are repeating the discredited narrative that is becoming more and more difficult to maintain by the people trying to hold on to the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:33 PM

Since Judaism is a religion, it cannot possibly be a nationality.

Cramped thinking, anyone? Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. For the most part the two sets coincide.

Only Jews can own land in Israel (Goyim can [i]lease[/i] land from the government for up to 49 years). Only Jews are registered and called up in the selective service. Jews from anywhere in the world are given a free immigration pass, but no other people group has that privilege (certainly not displaced Palestinians whose land was stolen from them in either 1948 or 1967!). What else needs to be the case for it to be a Jewish state? Zionism is not about creating a secular democracy where Jews and everybody else can settle at will. It's about creating a Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:21 PM

Interesting perspective on Helen Thomas

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:38 PM

Here's more truth telling in the face of the propaganda...

http://freedocumentaries.org/teatro.php?filmID=104&lan=undefined&size=undefined

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:06 AM

More on the subject of the link in my last post. Those Sailors and Marines must have been terrorists trying to bring weapons to Gaza disguised as humanitarian aid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f98jxoUUrzg

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:24 AM

Anti-semitism is an evil thing, and the rise in anti-Semitism cannot be anything but bad. Links to the Nazis like the Italian "don't buy from Jews" slogan, even if unintentional (and I have a hard time believing they are unintentional), are wronger than a wrong thing that's not right. And we at Mudcat know how wonderful the BNP isn't.

I really don't think the state of Israel is doing the worldwide cause of reducing anti-Semitism any favours, though, in its actions over the past couple of weeks. It is wrong to hate Jews because of what the Israeli government is doing. But it's also hard to say "Uncle Bob is really a nice guy" when everyone can see he's kicking the dog.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:44 AM

Here's another musical note - a nice rendition of We Shall Overcome...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnMMHepfYVc

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM

Awful. A political culture that lost the sense of the good things that produced decades ago and can't read the present.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:25 AM

A very bad idea to transform We Shall Overcome in a sectarian anthem, it had a universal breath. CarolC, being on a Folk and Traditional music site, I suggest your song to be Child #155.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:33 AM

In what country are you, Roberto?

That song is an icon of the US civil rights movement from our own apartheid days. Since the work on behalf of freedom and equal rights for Palestinians is every bit as much a civil rights movement as was the movement for which that song is an icon, it's actually a perfect song for this struggle. We're not a new movement. We are just people carrying the torch forward from the past to the present day manifestation of the same old struggle.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:48 AM

It is because it was a song from the Civil Rights Movement that I can't accept it to be bent to a sectarian support to a part that doesn't recognize at all civil rights, not even the idea of them, as Hamas regime. You are carrying the torch down a ditch. I'm from Italy.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:35 AM

"I suggest your song to be Child #155."
There has been NO anti Semitism on this thread.
There has been virtually no evidence of anti Semitism in the general response to recent events in Gaza; certainly not in Britain and Ireland.
The reaction has been entirely against the brutal nature with which the Israelis have carried out their expansionist policies - nothing more than that.
Previous requests have been met with silence - let's try again - if you have any evidence of anti-Semitism on this thread, please produce it. If you are unable to, it is you who is carrying "the torch down a ditch" - into the gutter in fact Roberto.
Crying "anti- Semitism" whenever Israeli actions are criticised is a deep and harmeful insult to the real victims of anti-Semitism - you really should be ashamed of yourself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:03 AM

Carol, you asked "Keith, I want to see the language that defines who can blockade whom. The language I've seen so far says that a country can prevent foreign countries from bringing anything to the shores of the country that is enforcing the blockade. I have not yet seen any other definitions of who can conduct blockades and who can be blockaded."

A blockade is a method of warfare between belligerent states.
Here are the relevant San Remo sections.

Blockade

93. A blockade shall be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral States.

94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.

95. A blockade must be effective. The question whether a blockade is effective is a question of fact.

96. The force maintaining the blockade may be stationed at a distance determined by military requirements.

97. A blockade may be enforced and maintained by a combination of legitimate methods and means of warfare provided this combination does not result in acts inconsistent with the rules set out in this document.

98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.

99. A blockade must not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.

100. A blockade must be applied impartially to the vessels of all States.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:07 AM

98



(and centenery post too)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:12 AM

Regarding previous Israeli enforcements of the blockade, you may think they were heavy handed, but there has never been shooting or deaths apart from this one ship.
Explanation?
Israel certainly gained nothing and has been damaged by it.
Is it significant that families of some of the killed have stated that they wanted to be martyred?

You have said I am in no position to describe others as partisan.
I am suspicious of the statements of both sides and try to judge by their actions not their words.

How do you know that there are witheld videos?
Why should we not believe the evidence visible in the images that have appeared?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:33 AM

"The reason there is nothing you can do to prevent this from happening is because you are repeating the discredited narrative that is becoming more and more difficult to maintain by the people trying to hold on to the status quo".

CaroleC
Just because you post alot (the record on this tread speaks for itself), does mot mean you are posting anything new....that hasn't been said alot by your compadres on the web.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:50 AM

Jim Carroll, I'm not ashamed of myself for contrasting a view of the Israeli/Palestinian tragedy that considers only one side and doesn't value at all the right to exist of the other side. I'm not ashamed of saying that the single-state solution is only a more presentable version of the project to destroy Israel. Also the single-state solution as promoted by Israel's extreme right wing is totally unacceptable. South African Apartheid is a misleading comparison. I'm not ashamed to criticize them who propose a fairy-tale vision of Hamas democracy, as CarolC does. I'm not ashamed of saying that you can't make a present of We Shall Overcome to radical islamism. I'm sorry that you think I would stop saying these things and retraet in shame, I won't meet your wishes.

You write: "There has been virtually no evidence of anti Semitism in the general response to recent events in Gaza". As I've written previously, the Italian group on the flotilla was no doubt formed by anti-semite. Please, go and visit their site, TerraSantaLibera, HolyLandFree, there is also a section in English.. The demonstrations in Italy, as usual when Israel is involved, have had several anti-semite traits. In Italy… Only in Italy? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:08 AM

"Only Jews can own land in Israel (Goyim can [i]lease[/i] land from the government for up to 49 years)".

If the site below is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it is not, it indicates that the statement above is not a fact...but propaganda often repeated in the past.


http://www.meforum.org/370/can-arabs-buy-land-in-israel

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:09 AM

How do you know there are withelf videos?

Keith, the passenger lists on the boats included a number of people of various nationalities - some of these had a more visable public face than others

Amongst them were -

Henning Mankell, 62, the Swedish author of the Inspector Wallander books, was released today and is flying home. He was on board with eight other Swedes. Mankell is married to the daughter of the film maker Ingmar Bergman.

"We are worried about our friends who are still in jail," he told the Expressen tabloid on a flight to Sweden.

The daily, which published a picture of Mankell standing in the aisle of the aircraft , reported that the author and Mehmet Kaplan, a Swedish MP, had been allowed to leave Israel.

The Swedish Foreign Ministry said four of the eleven Swedes who had been travelling with the flotilla when it was attacked early yesterday had been permitted to return home.

Anders Joerle, the Foreign Ministry spokesman, said that the others were not all being held at the same place and some had been imprisoned while some had simply been taken into custody.

The former US Ambassador

Edward Peck, 81, a former US Ambassador to Mauritania, was expected to arrive home today after the Free Palestine movement ship that he was on was seized by Israeli commandos.

Ann Peck, his wife, said that she received a brief e-mail from the Israeli Foreign Ministry yewsterday informing her that her husband was fine and on his way home. The e-mail said he was likely to arrive today, but that did not have a mobile phone with him and would call from an unnamed New York airport when he landed, she said.

"He gets himself into these messes, and the phone is going to ring," she joked.

Mrs Peck said that as of yesterday evening she had not spoken to US officials, nor had she been able to talk to her husband, since the raid. She had last spoke with him briefly by satellite phone just as the aid ships were leaving their rendezvous point.

"Knowing him I doubt there are regrets," she said. "I think he was really hopeful of it making a difference."

Mr Peck served as deputy director in President Reagan's White House Task Force on Terrorism.

The US Navy veteran

Joe Meadors, 63, of Texas, is a navy veteran. His wife Jean said yesterday evening that she believed he was safe, "but I'd like to hear that from him".

She said his exact status, whether under arrest, detention or otherwise, was unclear.

Mr Meadors served aboard the US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty that was attacked by Israeli forces in 1967, killing 34 crew members.

"He hasn't had much luck with the Israelis," his wife said.

The television producer

David Schermerhorn, retired television commercial producer of Washington state, was also on the flotilla as an activist with the Cyprus-based Free Gaza Movement, his daughter told The Seattle Times.

Kate Schermerhorn said US Embassy officials had told her that the 80-year-old was taken into custody by Israeli officials and was unharmed.

The Germans

Norman Paech, 72, a former member of parliament, who was on board, told reporters in Berlin: "Personally, I saw two and a half wooden batons that were used . . . There was really nothing else. We never saw any knives. The Israeli Government justifies the raid because they were attacked. This was absolutely not the case. This was not an act of self-defence."

Mr Paech said that he had taken photographic evidence, but Israeli authorities confiscated his camera. "We had not prepared in any way to fight. We didn't even consider it. No violence, no resistance — because we knew very well that we would have absolutely no chance against soldiers like this. This was an attack in international waters on a peaceful mission . . . This was a clear act of piracy," he said.

A German doctor, Matthias Jochheim, was also on the ship and said he had seen four dead bodies and expected the death toll to be 15.

Inge Hoeger and Annette Groth, two German MPs who had been on board the convoy, also said that they had seen no one with weapons.

The Irish

The group of Irish activists held in Beersheba includes Paul McGeough, 56, an Irish-born journalist and chief correspondent of the Sydney Morning Herald. He has reported from the Middle East for two decades.

Dublin-based Shane Dillon, 36, first mate on the Challenger 1, was being deported today. He has served as chief officer on Irish and British merchant ships. He is the brother of the musician Eoin Dillon from the traditional band Kila.

Dr Fintan Lane, 43, is a historian, political activist and spokesman for the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign. He is the author or editor of seven books on modern Irish history.

Fiachra O Luain, 28, is peace activist from Donegal who stood unsuccessfully as an independent candidate in the 2009 European elections. He was one of the first people to protest over the US military using Shannon Airport.


The retired German MP specifically mentions the consfication of his camera others have reported since their return the consfication of all personal items like mobile phones etc that could have recorded images

Do you wish to accuse all these disparate individuals of lying?

This week The Israeli Defense Force has issued a "clarification" admitting it manipulated audio of its raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

On Friday, the IDF released audio of what it said was an exchange between Israel Navy officers and the crew of the Mavi Marmara, the main vessel in the flotilla. In it, voices could be heard telling the Israeli soldiers to "go back to Auschwitz" and "we're helping Arabs go against the US -- don't forget 9/11, guys."

But flotilla passengers quickly began disputing the veracity of the audio clip.

On Saturday, the IDF's public blog issued a "correction" explaining that the tape had been edited "so as to make it easier for people to listen to the exchange."

The IDF's latest version of the audio is actually the third version the military organization has released. Its first audio version of the incident, a one-minute clip released the day of the raid, did not include any of the controversial comments -- no voices can be heard saying "Go back to Auschwitz" or "remember 9/11."

Critics of Israel have suggested the audio clip -- and the IDF's admission it was edited -- shows the Israeli military is involved in a propaganda campaign to discredit the flotilla as a humanitarian effort. And investigative journalist Max Blumenthal notes that the IDF audio has already made its way into US media as fact.

"Hours after the IDF's admission, major news outlets which reported on the doctored audio clip as though it was a shocking revelation and not a scandalous forgery have still not corrected themselves," Blumenthal writes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:16 AM

Roberto,
As I said, there has been no evidence of anti-Semiitism either on this thread, nor in general to the recent events - what you describe is the response to Israel's continued and expanding occupation of Palestinian land - it has no place in this present argument.
I cannot speak for Italy - I can only comment on what I see here.
In citing an anti-Semitic ballad as a counter to CarolC's argument you are grossly distorting what she and the rest of us have to say on this affair.
Your "my faith, right or wrong" argument is totally unacceptible and does nothing but damage to your case.
If opposition to Israeli policy is 'anti-Semitic' then equally, support for their actions against the Gazans must be considered anti-Arab, or opposition to Mugabi, or China, or Cuba, or Korea, or Iran - or anywhere you care to name, has to be 'racist'.

According to a letter in today's Irish Post, it seems that I was not alone in my impression that some of the nine killings were executions.

"Madam, - The Turkish autopsies on the activists seeking to bring toys, school books and medicine to the people of Gaza show all but one of the victims of the attack were shot in the back or in the back of the head.
As anyone with military training (I have five years), could tell you; if you are being "attacked by someone with a kitchen knife or a metal bar, you shoot them in the chest. You do not turn your back to them, you do not ask them to turn around so that you can shoot them in the back of the head. And key to this over all, you do not waste your ammunition putting two, three or four bullets into the back of the head of an already dead man. Unless of course you are sending a message.
The victims of the Israeli slaughter in the international waters of the Mediterranean were in fact executed at point-blank range. This was done, with the usual Israeli Defence Forces precision. The only difference is, this time they were not carrying Irish passports. And their message is clear: don't try to help the people of Gaza, our genocide there isn't complete yet.
I am no longer morally able to vilify Hamas. It has my support from this day forward. - Yours, etc,
MICHEAL HIGGINS,
Adare,
Co Limerick."

Todays paper also carries a detailed report of an Irish protester (of Turkish origin) being systematically beaten by Israeli forces.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM

Real-Estate in Israel can be divided into 2 categories private owned, and State owned.

In the "State owned" category is included all real-estate that is owned by the state of Israel itself, and/or local-authorities/municipalities. and/or governmental institutions and/or governmental corporations


1. According to a basic (constitutional) Law called The Basic Law of the Lands of Israel, The State may not sell the ownership in it's lands to anyone, not even citizens of Israel and/or Israeli corporations.
Nevertheless, the state may and does rent (lease) it's real-estate, keeping the ownership always to itself.
The rent (lease) is usually for a period of 49 years that automatically renews itself for another 49 years, so in total – 98 years.
The long period of the rent makes the leaser almost an owner, yet the state, as formal owner, may intervene and/or veto requested actions in the real-estate (such as building on it, as any owner would).

A big part of the residential property in Israel is owned by the State and leased to the residents in the above way.

2. The State of Israel has rules restricting the possibility of foreign people and foreign corporations to lease State owned residential property.
In general, these limitations do not allow foreigners to acquire State owned property. There are several exceptions, one of which is that foreigners that are entitled to Israeli Citizenship according to the Israeli Law of Return would receive permission to buy (actually – as said above – rent) such State owned property.

The above Law gives this privilege to any Jewish person, man or woman, anywhere around the Globe.

Non-Jewish persons would have grave difficulties to own (actually – as said above – rent) state owned real-estate.

The above situation is both when renting the real-estate from the State itself ("first hand" property, that is new property/apartment) and when buying the rights from a former renter ("second hand" property/apartment)

3. In addition to the above, special problems may rise if the desired residential property is not in one of the cities but in a Kibbutz or other social-corporated village, usually integrating residential usage and agronomical usage of the lands.

Not only that these lands are owned by the State, therefore the above rules in art. 1-2 apply, but these social-corporations have inner rules restricting who may become a member in them. These inner rules usually do not allow foreigners and non-citizens to become their members.

- from Israeli Law - Laws regarding property ownership in Israel
information provided by Yosef Miller, adv.
Miller – Sieradzki
Advocates & Patent Attorneys
18 Mahanaim st, Haifa, Israel

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:57 AM

Emma, thanks again.
I did know that there were lots of nice people in the flotilla, and I am not questioning what happened on other vessels.

Ignoring claims and counter claims, I find it impossible to beieve that
1 Israelis thought it a good idea to make this the first and only antiblockade ship they have ever fired on.
2 Firing having started, commandos descended into the fight one at a time without weapons at the ready.

I find it easier to believe that some on board, willing to die as martyrs fighting Israel, flew at the soldiers and began clubbing them as can clearly be seen in video.

Abducted Israeli soldiers are invariably murdered and that would influence what happened next.