should the BBC folk awards be scrapped

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:30 AM

The folk awards are about the industry promoting its product. I hope they will continue to do this to the best of their ability. There is always scope for improvement, and Smooth Ops aren't exactly difficult to track down and make suggestions to. It's nice for the individual artists who win, and I'm really pleased that Jackie Oates and Jim Moray and Chris Wood and the Demon Barbers et al have gongs to take home and hopefully a bit of a raised profile. However, essentially the awards are not about individual musicians but about raising the profile of folk music as a whole, with the potential effect of more bums on seats at gigs and festivals, more CD sales, and so on. This might also contribute to more people discovering music by other artists not nominated for awards (via magazines, radio and internet shows, myspace, sites like this, etc); more people turning up at or starting folk clubs and acoustic nights (and thus creating more opportunities for less well known artists to play live - if they use their marketing and networking skills well); more people at sessions and sin-arounds; more people having a crack at learning an instrument or singing. And let's not forget the possibility of more folk musicians getting or putting on gigs outside of the folk world entirely. All of which is good for folk and traditional music, is it not?

Of course, none of this will necessarily happen, but it's worth a crack, isn't it? Lets face it, whatever your personal views on the music of, say, Show of Hands or Seth Lakeman or Rachel Unthank or Kate Rusby, the fact that they are out there, taking folk music to an audience way wider than the confines of the 'official' folk scene has to be a damned good thing, doesn't it? Personally, I think some of the music made by less well known names in the folk fraternity deserves far better than the niche market it currently exists in (Insert own artists of choice here: _____________). The folk awards - as well as being good for the profile of folk music generally - are part of a chain of processes that might just acheive that for anyone with talent who is willing to put the work in.

The awards also, of course, should mean more profits for the industry, which in turn means more incentive for them to continue to promote folk music outside the particular world of the full-on folkie. My world, that is: the world of people who initially come to the music as complete folk-scene outsiders...

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:27 AM

Just because you and I don't feature, doesn't make them a bad thing.[quote Ralph Jordan]
sorry this comment is unecessary,and has nothing to do with my opposition,please apologise.
I have made it very clear that all the winners are good peformers.
I have made it very clear why I think the awards should be scrapped,you or I being selected has nothing to do with it.
your remark has very unpleasant insinuations,it suggests that I oppose the awards because I havent been nominated.,you are out of order
I am not resident in the uk.,so am not eligible anyway.
I am entitled to have a different opinion,without having my character slurred .

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:41 AM

I am sure Ralph was not imputing that Dick and I suggest you are being over sensitive to imagine so. (What he said applied equally to himself)

We all have wish lists for the music we love. Having a wish list or in your occasion an opinion about a wish list is not sufficient, you have to work hard at it.

That means writing letters and challenging people when you get chance to those who can make things happen - in this case the BBC, Smooth Operations and so on.

You are unilkely to get much joy writing to the BBC and Smooth Ops since you are not a resident in this country - but it wouldn't stop you winning an award. Two went to Americans this year.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:43 AM

Smoothops' remit is, roughly, to reflect musical output from "the English-speaking world".
Not to confine itself to music produced in the UK.
Dick, your material is largely English and would qualify, if nominated.
Perhaps you should change your PR people (or pay them more . . . )

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:03 AM

Ok Ok Dick I apologise.
But......Where is the funding to come from for your grand scheme to help the masses appreciate their history and tradition?
I'll put in a fiver if you do the same.
Reality check here. Strictly come dancing, either on ice or concrete or in a mud bath gets funding. A Bloke singing a song with a beard and a concertina doesn't.
It's not going to happen. Let us all just appreciate the crumbs that are thrown our way. Celebrate the winners and the runners ups at the only Folk award ceremony in the UK. Thank BBC4 and Channel 5 for occasionally broadcasting some interesting programmes. (Remember the 60's? All those bloody hay bales?)
You want more? Go on then. You pay for it. Sure as hell the BBC won't.
Look at the problem that the new Morris film is having getting a distribution deal.
Anyway as you say. You live in Ireland. So what's it got to do with you? Go and moan at RTE.
I think that, all things considered The English media is doing rather well at the moment. Not perfect, but...

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: matt milton
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:13 AM

"what is their purpose?is it to promote folk music,or folk revival performers? or both."

I think there's also something of a tautology in the question above: promoting a music is all but inseparable from promoting its performers. Music is, after all, made by musicians.

There's that use of "revival" in the question, however. Which makes me think yet again that all too many of the discussions and heated arguments on this forum stem from the fact that folk is a nebulous term. It simply cannot be defined in the hard-and-fast hermetically sealed way that some posters here are convinced it can.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: JHW
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:17 AM

Yes. The public assume they are THE folk awards

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:20 AM

Matt Couldn't agree more.
Nebulous...Now there's a word to conjour with!
A blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat, that isn't there.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:23 AM

"Isn't this what Woman's Hour, R4's folk, roots and acoustic flagship programme, is for? "


Ha ha Thank you D.E. that gave me a real laugh and cheered me up.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:19 AM

I am not interested in winning awards.
I am interested in the music being done proper justice when it is presented on air .
I am not of the opinion that these vacuous awards[Jim Carrolls words]do the music proper justice .
I believe that our music would be served better without a competitive award system .
I am interested in the weaknesses of the folk revival scene being improved .
I am entitled to a different opinion to you.
I do not attack people on a personal basis,who have a different opinion to me,
for example Lizzie Cornish ,and the Villan,on this thread.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: pavane
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:20 AM

I agree with Betsy

MUDCAT folk awards would be more representative

What can we lose?

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:26 AM

>>I do not attack people on a personal basis,who have a different opinion to me,
for example Lizzie Cornish ,and the Villan,on this thread. <<

I should hope not Captain Birdseye, or I would have to call you a blaggard and hit you with my wet fish :-)

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:27 AM

Dick, if you mean me then I apologise for suggesting that you're too stingy to put your money where your mouth is.
But there again, how exactly is what you say you want going to be paid for?

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:38 AM

Err - I'm staying out of this thread because I'm already trying to keep up with the other one and two on the BBC site, but just for the record, the problem is not money. It's access to that big tall tower with the aerial on top and the zigzags coming out. Putting Dick's programmes on air would mean bumping something the suits believe will get many more viewers/listeners (or advertising revenue). And they can't do that because of rules around the licence fee and market forces. They're wrong in the longer term, of course, but there's no way to bridge that gap now other than the one I've outlined, which is to attack from the bridgehead smoops has already won, not to retreat to the beach and start scaling some cliff somewhere else. Tom

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: GUEST,Ken J, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM

I understand that there is a lot of crankiness that there is not more folk music on the BBC national channels, but this is not Smooth Operations' fault.

I've been listening to the Harding show for seven years. The worst thing I can say is that he represents the conservative (stylistic, not political) face of British folk. The Harding show is a good guide to current popular folk music for the general listener, and even for someone like myself who considers himself a bit of a specialist, it provides valuable tips on new releases and performers. I'd have to dig out some playlists, but seems to me that somewhere around 25% of Harding's selections could be deemed traditional songs and tunes.   And, for me, Harding's show inspires a decent number of CD purchases each year.

And if you still want to be cranky about Harding, get on the net and start playing with the other BBC radio folk shows. Good heavens, you have a lot of them!! I generally listen to: Folkwaves (Radio Derby), Travelling Folk with Archie Fisher, Global Gathering (when it's not too Latin for my tastes), Late Junction (a surprising amount of traditional music buried in amongst the classical, jazz and experimental stuff). Sometimes I listen to Genevieve Tudor (Radio Shropshire) and Frank Hennessy (Radio Wales).   

It doesn't matter if it's a local programme on transmitter towers; on the Internet, it's a show with a global audience, and the BBC even lets you listen at the time of your convenience. And you can even fast forward to the good bits now!!!

Political advisory: my position is that my strongest interests are in contemporary presentations of traditional material.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 12:09 PM

"Show of Hands or Seth Lakeman or Rachel Unthank or Kate Rusby"

this leads back to somewhere I personally would rather not go ie what is and what is not considered "folk" music

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 12:14 PM

never mind the folk awards the BBC itself should be scrapped

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 12:17 PM

I was awaiting that remark it only took 66 posts to arrive..

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:27 PM

are competetitive awards the best way to promote folk music .
should competitions be given air play?

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM

Anything that keeps folk music alive must be and is worth doing even if some opinions are that it is biased. Let's face it, people will argue for ever as to what folk music is and what it should be and who is a "true" folk artist and who isn't really folk. There have been hundreds of threads about this on mudcat and no end of discussion and arguement. No-one has defined folk in such away that everyone accepts. I doubt they ever will.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:32 PM

"MUDCAT folk awards would be more representative"

Of what?

(Voice off: "The narrowminded pontificationss of several dozen geriatric bearded ferrets scrapping in a box?")


"What can we lose?"

Audience, profile and credibility spring to mind. Just when the music was doing rather better for those than it used to.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: GUEST,Denzil
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:57 PM

I usually lurk and will continue to do so, but I'm puzzled.

Why does Captain Birdseye think that the BBC folk awards are a competition?

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:03 PM

I've no idea. PErhaps he has never listened to it.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:04 PM

I don't think the Captain does - I think he means that awards should be given for competitions, and that they should be held on the BBC.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:13 PM

From my reading, I think the Capt. meant there should be a competitive awards show rather than an industry showcase awards show, and it should be shown by the BBC.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:16 PM

The good Cap'n doesn't, apparently, know a lot about the Folk Awards nor has he spent much time listening to them. That's why I tried to send him off to read the webpage. What is a lot more alarming is that a fair number of contributors to this and other threads admit to never having heard of many of the nominees, despite the relevant CDs having been available all year.

So how, exactly, would Mudcat folk awards be more "representative"? And of what?

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: GUEST,Denzil
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:19 PM

'f you are against competitions in music,then you should be against the BBC awards.'

Thus spake the Captain.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:24 PM

Chris Woods was available much earlier and my copy is dated 2007! Gulp!

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:32 PM

Just looking at my Trespasser and you're right.
I hope no-one's going to start a Mercury-stylee out-of-time rumour . . .

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:32 PM

I didn't watch the damned thing and I've listened to a good number of the entries from this year, according to my daughter, and she says that if you've not listened to at least a couple of the entries you probably shouldn't be criticising. That's her though..

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:00 PM

I.m struck by the great difference between what happens in the UK and what happens here in Ireland.
As far as I can see the BBC does virtually nothing for folk music apart from holding these meaningless award ceremonies - no regular programmes, no serious discussion, no half-decent coverage of folk events - sod-all (unless you count the regular 'Rambling Sid-type piss-take on programmes like 'Have I Got News For You').
Here, the Irish-language channel TG4 gives us a wall-to-wall feast of well presented, stacks of air-time, light and serious, and above all, totally respectful to the point of being proud of.... Irish traditional music (as well as the ersatz stuff).
A couple of weeks ago they held their annual award ceremony, where two of the recipients were the great songwriter Con 'Fada' O'Drisceol and our own Reg Hall.
The right to hold award ceremonies should be an honour 'awarded' to the channel which does the best job in presenting folk music on a permanent basis - not the other way round.
From where I'm standing, you're like a bunch of poodles waiting for an extremely tight-arsed owner to throw you a biscuit.
Why are you dining in the same restaurant as these pricks - let alone allowing them to eat at your table - F*** the ponces.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:45 PM

I think people are asking and awful lot of one hour long show on one channel. Especially when you think of the breadth of styles and sheer volume of catalogue to choose from.

As for the awards themselves, I see nothing wrong with them. And I like to get the album that they bring out afterwards. I've gotten into stuff I would never have dreamt of buying a cd of through those albums.

By all means, make suggestions to both the BBC & Smooth Ops, heck start a campaign. But simply denouncing them and the awards does nothing but hurt what certain people apparently want to promote.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:14 PM

Folknacious, you've misrepresented what I was saying - or perhaps I expressed myself badly. I was not criticising the musicians who took part in the folk awards, my point was the way so many people who are heavily involved in the British folk scene feel alienated from these awards and from the only national folk radio programme.

The very fact that there are at least two separate threads about the folk awards on Mudcat alone proves my point. The Radio 2 Folk Awards should be attracting the interest and support of everyone who is seriously interested in folk music. Instead there's massive disagreement over how they are run and whether or not they are representative of the British folk scene. Similarly, Mike Harding's show should be essential listening, instead a large number of the very people you would expect to form its core audience never listen to it.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:33 PM

Guest KenJ, you're right, there is a lot of good stuff being "broadcast" on the internet, some of it even coming from the BBC. That doesn't get around the fact that most people listen to the radio on a radio set, at home or in the car.

I live less than 60 miles from Shrewsbury but I can't receive Genevieve Tudor's programme on Radio Shropshire unless I go online. The only nationwide folk radio programme is, as you say, a very good guide for the general listener - that more or less sums up its remit - but has little for anyone who is more involved. There is also a strong emphasis on Irish and American music - nothing wrong with either, but it would be nice to hear the British Broadcasting Corporation focussing a bit more on British music.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:58 AM

The only thing wrong with BBC Folk Awards is the odious Smooth Operations Company running [ or was that ruining ] it.

Dave H

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:11 AM

I have no love for Smooth Ops - but I do suspect they have a brief and they have to stick to it.

If they didn't the BBC would find someone else to do it.

SOps have a number of people who know what they are doing in the world of folk working for them.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Faye Roche
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 10:57 AM

My gripe against these, or any other kind of awards, is the absolute predictability and exclusiveness of them.

Let's consider the Oscars, for example. Just because Tom Cruise or Cate Blanchett win one, does that mean that they're better actors than the unknown professionals appearing in your local repetory company? No, of course not. In the same way, if Lau win "best live band", does anyone seriously believe that there's no-one in the country that's better?

Of course, opinions are subjective; you can't compare Lau with, for instance, The Claque and say that one is better than the other; it's a matter of taste. That's why the awards are meaningless.

I can imagine the conversation that goes on around the judging table: "Well, of course we have to nominate Eliza's album, but maybe someone else should win this year? And Rachel had her turn last time; now we should give Jackie a chance?" Who are the judges? They're not, by any chance, agents and managers of some of the artists are they? (What a nasty suspicious mind I have!)

My solution would be to scrap them and replace them with a show that features all sorts of folk performers, famous and otherwise. That would REALLY represent what's going on in the UK folk scene.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 11:19 AM

Rumour has it all the disciplines are to be included in the London Olympics! The idea is that all the performers do their thing at the same time and the last man standing gets the gold. Except the "sprint", the fastest time to sing a standard 5 verse song.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:03 AM

Except the "sprint", the fastest time to sing a standard 5 verse song.

Somewhere in one of Bob Copper's books he says they used to do something like this at Harvest (or was it Christmas? There was a pint for the fastest singer of a 'trad' song - they didn't have to sing the same one, though. His was "Twenty, eighteen" if I remember rightly.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: evansakes
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:21 AM

Faye said ........"I can imagine the conversation that goes on around the judging table"

How many more times does this this need to be said?
There is no judging table!! It's a secret ballot.

........."The Claque"

Who?
The people who get seen my thousands are going to stand more of a chance of getting noticed and acknowledged than those that are seen by dozens. That's a simple fact of life and no doubt the reason why your favourite band didn't win. No qualitative comparisons are being made but most people would agree you have to earn the right to get noticed.

........"replace them with a show that features all sorts of folk performers, famous and otherwise"

No-one would want to fund it, no-one would broadcast or write about it, no vital publicity would ensue. In short...no good would become of it.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:33 AM

A twenty five year old pop songs wings Best Original Song at the BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards and the organiser of a major folk club has never heard of The Claque.

Don't we live in curious times?

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:48 AM

The Claque are just four old blokes. Very good at what they do but not very exciting.
The Best Original Song category is for a recording released during the past year.
It is not a judgment of the song All You Pretty Girls, released by XTC in the early 80s, as such, but an award for Jim Moray's reworking of it on Low Culture.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:01 AM

You scarce would be believing.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:22 AM

Hi,

It isn't surprising that some people haven't much heard of the Claque.

Between September 2008 and June 2009 according to their website, they have 6 booked gigs and they sing twice each month once at at Sidmouth and once at Exeter.

Apart from Cheltenham they don't seem to get booked much north of the Thames. This may be their choice - it may be organisers choice - I have no idea, but they are hardly high profile.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:32 AM

You're right Dave, Twickenham is north of the Thames so you can't expect Twickfolk to have heard of them.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 07:47 AM

For me, The Claque are very exciting indeed: strong, almost dangerous vocal harmonies and a repertoire that's unusual for these days. They did several festivals last year: Chippenham, Wadebridge and Tenterden.

They are booked at the

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 07:51 AM

.... (whoops) Lewes Saturday Folk Club on Saturday 27th. June.

Tickets will be £6. We expect a brilliant night in the superb acoustics of the Elephant & Castle.

Valmai

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 12:45 PM

Yes, I remember playing several times at the Elephant an Castle ,I always had good gigs there,good acoustics and good beer.
mind you I generally drink adams ale ,these days.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 12:50 PM

I saw the Claque last year and was impressed. I don't impress easily.

Subject: RE: should the BBC folk awards be scrapped
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 12:51 PM

It was at Tenterden - 100