Public concerts in 'churches' ?

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 08:33 AM

Bob,
Here is my direct answer.

IF I knew that a SUBSTANTIAL portion of the take would go to support the church;
AND IF I knew that that church was HEAVILY into proselytising a viewpoint that I thought was toxic;
AND IF I knew that the performer was going to proselytise some of that religion;
THEN I would not go.

Note that ALL of the above would have to be true.
IF I knew that the performer was NOT an agent of the church;
OR if the church was NOT HEAVILY into proselytising a viewpoint that I thought was toxic;
OR I knew that a SUBSTANTIAL portion of the take would NOT go to support the church.

If any one of these was NOT true, I would go. I recognize that in some areas, this is not possible.

I recognize that in some areas, for SOME performers, this is not possible. However, I don't know of any musicians that I might want to hear who are active proselytisers. SO, I would likely go, especially if there were no other venues in the area.

I hope that directly answers your inquiry into my thoughts.

Saul

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: RTim
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 10:14 AM

I am doing a concert in a church in England next month.
I, with others, will be singing songs collected in the locale, including
some collected in the village itself, and one from the church's original Sexton.
I am also introducing one of the singers songs with a Toast also collected
from him.
"May all churches and chapels be turned in Public House,
and the Parsons be hung up as signs!"

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 10:53 AM

These people Moonrakers seem to specialise in it.

RtS

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 02:18 PM

"…..did you know that the Church(Catholic, at the time), banned Bach's music from being played in their churches, or rituals....Bach began stacking chords in FORTHS, and the church thought it was of the devil!"

To correct a bit of misinformation:

First point.

Having analyzed a great deal of Bach's music (and that of many other composers) in harmony classes and music history classes, I don't know what is meant by "stacking chords in FORTHS (fourths?)." It makes no sense.

Diabolus in musica or "the Devil in music" refers to the "tritone," or an interval composed of three whole steps (for example, in the key of C, the interval from B to F, or its inversion, F to B). This interval is a diminished fifth or an augmented fourth, depending on how you read it. It is a dissonant interval and creates harmonic tension calling for resolution. The tritone is an integral part of any dominant seventh chord (i.e., a G7 in the key of C), and the tension it creates is what gives a dominant seventh chord its "drop the other shoe" quality, calling for resolution, or release of the tension. E.g., G7 resolving to a C.

This interval gave some people wall-eyed fits back in the Renaissance period and into the early Baroque. For some reason, they thought it was evil, hence "the Devil in music." These days, it's downright ordinary. Among other things, it's the famous "flatted fifth" in jazz.

As far as anyone knows, the first flat-out, deliberate use of the tritone for the purpose of creating tension that required resolution was by Claudio Monteverdi (1576-1643—late Renaissance/early Baroque) in a madrigal arrangement of "sumer is icumen in." Very "modern." At the time, critics squealed things like "The human ear will never grow to tolerated such dissonance!!" Wrong-o!! These days, you can't listen to more than about thirty seconds worth of music without hearing it, and it's so common that most people don't even notice it.

Second point.

Johann Sebastian Bach was an extremely inventive composer and in a sense, wrote the book on classical harmony and polyphony, but he did not use the tritone in his music any more liberally than other composers of the day. His music was played in churches constantly. His paying job was as organist, choir director, and general music director for several churches of varying denominations, for which he composed musical settings for masses and all kinds of services, almost all of which are played in churches and concert halls today.

If Bach wasn't "flavor of the month" in many Catholic churches during his own lifetime, it was because he was a Lutheran. Not because he "stacked forths."

Thus endeth the music history and harmony lesson for the day.

Go in peace. Serve the Lord. But if you can't bring yourself to serve the Lord, then serve Orpheus.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 03:16 PM

HEY DON ... have YOU ever sung in a "church" bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Stewart
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 03:38 PM

Yes, I recall hearing both of you
(Don and Bob) singing in a "church"
in Seattle several years ago.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 03:42 PM

WHAT .... me sing in a "church" ... you've got to be kidding! bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Stewart
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 04:00 PM

Yes, here's the proof
in this video.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 04:04 PM

WHAT the heck! Was THAT a "church." Well I'll be damned! Why didn't anyone tell me. I've always wondered what the inside of a church looks like. Now I find out that I've been in one and I didn't even know it.

I wonder if GAWD will forgive me? bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 07:50 PM

I suppose that having seen the video evidence of the OP who say's he can't enter a church, performing immediately in front of the altar, and I'm guessing from the look of the video, not that many years ago, someone has got ask the obvious question.

What's this thread all been about, and what's changed, why can't you enter a church now?

Confused of Suffolk!

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 08:13 PM

Dear confused .... You've asked a sensible question and I'll give you a straight answer. I've changed my mind. Pretty simple ... eh? The older I get, and I'm doing that EVERY DAY. The more selective I'm getting about those people I choose to associate with. Years ago, I would go into places with friends that I won't go into today. It's my life and it's my choice. Pretty simple ... eh? bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 03:31 AM

Interesting stuff Don. The Catholic church specialized in polyphony, which puritans found too seductive for their taste. Who knows what message might be found in those interweaving voices? Like the black magic scares in contemporary rock music where some might hear 'set fire to your underwear' in a Motorhead lyric - that's if you can still find a turntable to play in reverse - the big collar guys knew the devil was in the detail.

Anyway, the reformation eventually bought us the marvel of unaccompanied three and four part harmony in shape notes which was abandoned by the rest of civilisation as 'unscientific' but hung on in the southern states to enlighten us all. For anyone interested in religion/belief's role in schooled singing I recommend Warren Steel and Richard Hulan's book "The Makers of the Sacred Harp".

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 03:41 AM

The point I was making is puritans and fun police wear many guises, not all of them clerical.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Mick Tems
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 05:25 AM

Just to add my 'pennorth: I've toured in America and New Zealand, where concerts in churches are not unusual. The acoustics are out of this world. For myself, I just love looking at churches, taking some unobtrusive photos and contemplating the peace and beauty, and it feels like I'm charging and refreshing my worn-out mental batteries again.

Churches are wonderful works of art wherever in the world they are, especially when you're attending a concert. I'd advise you to unblock your prejudices just a little, free your mind and enjoy!

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 06:09 AM

I take it that the reason it's 'churches' rather than just churches in Deckman's heading for this thread was because the objection is to all places of worship rather than churches as such - synagogues, mosques temples and so forth would all qualify for the thumbs down.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 06:18 AM

I might add that I've performed medieval sacred music in a church as part of a service - if you can call the Cantigas de Santa Maria sacred. At the Morpeth Gathering one year I did a short set of stories of Saint Cuthbert (from Bede) as part of a Sunday service and had the congregation singing along with Gelineau Psalm 109 (110). As an Atheist I see no problem with this whatsoever; indeed, it was an honour to do so. I had the words of Ca' The Horse Me Marra printed up in the Order of Service and the congegation sang along with that too. Awesome!

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 08:45 AM

Churches have smexy acoustics. Especially cathedrals. I'd gladly go and play/listen there any day.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 10:04 AM

Is smexy good? (And if that was a typo for sexy, I can't imagine how acoustics to match that description would make for particularly good listening.)

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM

Smexy is a term I coined to denote things that are sexy without being sexual. It came from when me and my friend discovering a chord on the piano which we both decided that we should leave our girlfriends and marry this chord. They weren't particularly happy with that.

I mostly use it for things which are very attractive, but aren't a real person. So [insert attractive model's name here] is sexy, but the Faure Requiem is smexy.

I'M NOT WEIRD!

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 10:57 AM

Some say fiddlers should never darken the church door because they are playing the instrument of Saten!
   Proof here:
On the other hand some misguided souls believe that the fiddle is the only instrument that the devil will not touch because it forms the sign of the cross. There is also strong evidence that The Lord dances in time to the beat of the fiddle.
Here:

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 11:52 AM

Don, As usual, you went on a semi-literate diatribe, just to differ with me, but the fact is, liturgical music used in the Catholic Church, up till Bach, and even used today, up to even now, was the Gregorian Chants, though that has been changed since Bach. The chants were homo-phonic. Also Bach's music had the unique characteristic of having multiple 'melodies' going on, at the same time, which made up the chords. This in itself was quite revolutionary at the time....but I'm 'sure' you knew that, huh?

Also, 'Smexy' as explained is a cool term...sorta like 'sexy' and 'smarmy'...but I'd like to hear from 'DrugCrazed' if that's where is came from.

And one more point, some music, played well, and composed with certain things in mind, is FAR MORE spiritual, then many messages, heard or adhered to in churches!!..even today!


Reference to Bach, and polyphonic music. Note the words, 'The Church EVENTUALLY. ...."

When Jesus started his 'preaching' the FIRST place he went, was to the temples....and in like manner, certain music, done right, as per aforementioned, absolutely SHOULD be played in churches..and in auditoriums, and stereos, and on the street....whatever it takes, to get it into peoples ears, and into their hearts!...besides, a pithy tune, sent with well constructed lyrics, will roll around in someone's head, a lot longer, than a dry, doctrinal, sermon, which is soon forgotten, once the folks leave the church, and head for brunch!

GfS

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 02:37 PM

You will note, GfS, that I said:

"If Bach wasn't 'flavor of the month' in many Catholic churches during his own lifetime, it was because he was a Lutheran. Not because he 'stacked forths.'"

The operational word that you pointed out is "eventually." Almost all of the older, mainline churches of various denominations use Bach's music in their sevices from time to time. That does not contradict anything that I said above.

Polyphony? Of course. J. S. Bach raised the art of the fugue and other polyphonic forms to intricacies that amaze musicians even today, especially in the fact that, even with their mathematical complexity, they retain, and often gain aesthetic quality.

By the way, every Sunday evening, Saint Mark's Cathedral (Episcopalian), about ten blocks north of where I live, conducts a Compline service, which is broadcast on KING-FM, Seattle. The music consists of a male choir singing Gregorian chants.

Also, in anticipation of forming a "Medieval Men's Choir" here in Seattle (there is already a Medieval Women's Choir here), Nancy Quensé, a long-time friend who sings with the women's choir told me about the new group forming and suggested that I might join it. I did, and attended several workshops on Gregorian chant and medieval music in general. In addition to singing in a choir, which I enjoyed when I attended the U. of W. School of Music, I learned a great deal in those workshops that could be applied to the singing of really old ballads. Unfortunately, due to time conflicts among the men in the group, the Medieval Men's Choir never got off the ground. Too bad! But it was a great learning experience for me.

So you see, I'm not exactly unacquainted with early liturgical music.

And as to your accusation that I corrected the errors in your post only to differ with you—GfS, you are not that important to me. Don't flatter yourself. But when you post misinformation, it should really be corrected by someone. I don't think anyone should confuse the innocent by posting misleading information just because they'd like to sound knowledgeable.

Now, back to our regular broadcast.

By the way, what are "stacked forths?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 03:12 PM

I hope Guest from Sanity isn't suggesting there was no Catholic Polyphonic music in the time period prior to Bach. If so, the poor thing has missed out on Allegri, Palestrina, Byrd, Tallis, etc. Which is a terrible shame! Some wonderful music within a very sophisticated tradition of counterpoint.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Stewart
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 04:14 PM

Two musical highlights of mine were singing with a small Pomona College vocal ensemble a Josquin des Prez (pre-Bach) polyphonic mass in Old St. Mary's Cathedral in San Francisco and in a Catholic cathedral in Tijuana, Mexico. These were regular church services with all the mystique and mumble-jumble of the RC Church liturgy (I had strong agnostic leanings even back then, but no harm was done). Cathedrals are fantastic spaces in which to sing.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: ripov
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM

A frequent occurence is for as river to be accopmpanied by an underground stream following the same course. These are said to be "stacked". A well known example in Scotland is the Stacked Forths of Firth.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 05:37 PM

Good one though, Ripov!

"Stacked Forths" ain't mine. I'm just curious. I've had music theory and history classes up the ziggy and I've never heard of "stacked forths" until now. I'm trying to visualize what this would look like on a music manuscript and imagine what they would sound like.

My local liquor store has whole shelves of stacke fifths, but that's a different ball game.

(I have visions of some ancient Viking sailing his longship up the Firth of Forth and calling out the line from the old car commercial, "It's a Fjord!!")

Oh, well.....

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:29 PM

Drugcrazed - like it!

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Effsee
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 10:19 PM

ripov..."A well known example in Scotland is the Stacked Forths of Firth."...not something I've heard of...please elucidate!

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 01:31 AM

I stand corrected, in one sense, it was 'polyphonic' music, not stacking in fourths.

Come on, you know what stacking in fourths are. I think, without scrolling back you said it earlier.

Thanks Anyway....
(Well, at least this time you were at least 'half right'.....)

GfS

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 01:52 AM

GfS, I think that YOU don't know what "stacking in fourths" means.

If it means anything at all other than an attempt to sound erudite, then kindly explain it to us.

And how does it relate to polyphony?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:11 AM

Stacking Fourths notwithstanding, this whole business amounts to a pedantic savaging reminiscent of another perpreted by the saintly Mr Firth on one of Mudcat's oft-derided (and now, sadly, erstwhile) members. In a pragmatic sense what GfS makes perfect sense, though I don't know enough of Bach's music to say if he used it or not. He's refering to Quartal Voicings more typical of Jazz, though it would surprise me to find them employed elsewhere - even in Folk. Indeed, there are examples hinted at in medieval secular music which survive in Traditional Karadeniz Kemence music and Turkey (and Pontic Lyra music of Greece) which are based around fourths rather that fifths or thirds. It sounds strange to Western Ears, but if you start stacking up Perfect Fifths & Thirds in such a way then that sounds strange too, all the more so in an otherwise monophonic / modal context, such as the early polyphony of the medieval church (Organum), which was seemingly quite different from what Leonin and Perotin were up to at Notre Dame. Anyway, erudition notwithstanding, it's the pedantic pomposity of these attacks (and of those who cluster around like sheep) that most offends the come-all-ye Mudcat ethos which is meant to be a friendly & understanding sort of place.

I can't recall the when or the where of the orginal attack, but it came about when said Erstwhile 'Catter said Could Of instead of the more gramatically correct Could Have. On that occasion Mr Firth referred to that noxious arch-pedant and anti-linguist Lynne Truss as being delightful. What place Pedantry in folk or folklore? Much less in the constantly evolving world of language? The desperate may cling to correctness as a buoy in the rising tides of ever increasing inventiveness consequent on the living dymanic of folk & feral intercourse, but the true lover of Folk will sit back and marvel at the ingenuity of it all.

And it's got feck all to do with Humpty Dumpty either - as those in the UK will know if they've been watching the truly delightful Stephen Fry on his Sunday night programme on BBC2 (Fry's Planet Word, 9pm). Hopefully American viewers will get it before much longer.

*

[come inside my parenthesis of hypocritical shame: Earlier on in this same thread I made a similar corrective post regarding Medieval Pagan Imagery; my excuse was it was first thing on a Saturday (or was in Sunday?) morning after a particularly rough night, and no man is without his passions and the desire to share them. I hope I didn't come across as too corrective on that occasion - my sincere & cringing apologies if did.]

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: John P
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:09 AM

I think Keith Emerson made a career of playing fourths on top on each other. I've done it a fair bit myself. What does it have to do with anything, or are you guys just having a pedant fest?

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:13 AM

A different concern about music in houses of worship here:


http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2011/10/what-happens-when-music-enters-house-of.html

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:49 AM

The simple version: Stacking in fourths, is mostly used by 'jazzers', though it is found it LOTS of music. Polyphonic is multiple notes at once, as opposed to the Gregorian Chant, which were common at the time.
Did I pass?

GUEST,Suibhne Astray, I got a kick reading your post!
GfS

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:59 AM

"...the come-all-ye Mudcat ethos which is meant to be a friendly & understanding sort of place."

I must have missed that era.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 02:13 PM

I think there is a bit of confusion on someone's part as to who, here, is consistently, from thread to thread, attacking whom ("Whom." Pedantic enough for you?).

A Google search turned up some information on "stacked fourths." It seems we're talking JAZZ here, not Baroque liturgical music.

No, GfS was two or three centuries off if he was under the impression that J. S. Bach sitting there at the console and whippin' off a few cool riffs on the Flentrop organ was what made his music unwelcome in Catholic churches at the time.

Suibhne Astray, I'm afraid you might be somewhat humor-impaired. Among other things, I took Lynne Truss's book as satire. Whether she did or not.

Ye Gods, there are some humorless people here on these threads!

(Or should that be "humourless?")

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 02:47 PM

Yes.








:-) :-)

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:23 PM

Found in a fortune cookie:

"One should strive to grasp the distinction between pedantry and accuracy."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:44 PM

I saw many stacked fifths in the liquor store a few days back. So, I know THEY exist.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 04:15 PM

In the Gospel of John, the story is recounted that Jesus and his disciples are invited to a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and when the wine runs out, Jesus performs his first miracle by turning water into wine.

There are folks on this thread who should understand that their ability to turn beer into urine does not mean they have Divine Powers.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:11 PM

---"One should strive to grasp the distinction between pedantry and accuracy."---
,.,.,.,
Why ~~ I am accurate
       You are pedantic
       He is a fussy old bugger


               SIMPLES

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:28 PM

and when the wine runs out, Jesus performs his first miracle by turning water into wine.

As an old mate once said:

'Gentle Jesus, Lord Divine, who turned the water into wine;
Please forgive we lowly men who wish to turn it back again.'

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 06:37 PM

A fairly reliable way to get some hard-charging, tee-totaling evangelist to consign you to the depths of Hell is when he or she starts honking annoyingly about the Evils of Drink, point out that Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine at the wedding feast.

They usually come back with something really lame, like "But that was not wine! That was really grape juice!" Then you respond with, "But in the Bible, it clearly says 'wine.' Are you telling me that the Bible is NOT the Inerrant Word of God?"

At that point, they usually turn a lovely shade of purple and say, "I will pray for you!"

Don Firth

P. S. And then, if you are a real sadist and want to do them in totally, say, "Gee, thanks! Now—would you care for a snifter of really fine brandy? I'm going to have one."

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 07:02 PM

HEY ... YOU GUYS ... KNOCK IT OFF! I started a serious thread about my reluctance to attend a concert of folk music in a "church." Early on, some posters caught my drift and posted thoughtful and respectfull answers. I appreciate that. If I take the effort to start a serious thread, I appreciate it when mudcatters respond in kind.

But you guys ... GEEZE LOUISE ... what in the heck does any of this crap have to do with my original question?

I know that I have probably invited more personal attacks with this posting. Let me leave you with an honest thought ...

If every time I post a thoughful question to the mudcatters and I run into this CRAP ... I obviously will leave Mudcat. I will miss it, because there a lot of thoughtful and knowledgable people here. But ... I'm ready to quit Mudcat. Life is too short and I've got more important things to do. Respectfully ... bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 07:07 PM

Bob, request that the thread be shut down. You started the thread, so that's a reasonable request.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 08:50 PM

I already have.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:06 PM

To be fair Deckman, you never said 'why' you thought having concerts in church was such a bad idea. It could be because you think Christianity is misguided, you may not like the company religion keeps, or you might feel the acoustics are lousy. Without that kind of detail people will guess, which is what they've done and reached their own conclusions.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM

Bob, why is it a "church"? Do you describe places that sell beer as a "pub", or the place that you live in as your "house", or your workplace as the "office"?

What is it with the inverted commas? Enlighten us, "pray" do.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:55 AM

Deckman: " I know that I have probably invited more personal attacks with this posting. Let me leave you with an honest thought ..."

You are right!

I posted this originally, which was a respectful post, then the usual argumentative 'thread hijacker' went berserk, and did what he always does.


"Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 02:16 AM

If you are Catholic, it would bother you...if your Protestant, not so much. If you're REALLY into good music, and can play it(well), churches are as good as a place as any.
BTW, did you know that the Church(Catholic, at the time), banned Bach's music from being played in their churches, or rituals...."

Respectfully,
GfS

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:03 AM

I'll say it again, just because you start off a discussion doesn't mean you OWN it; just because you start off a thread, doesn't mean it's YOUR THREAD or that you have the right of termination. Think of it as a baby. You've brought it into this world, it takes its first steps, it grows, it matures, it makes its own mind up and it goes where it likes. It time it might come to despise everything you stand for. Such is life.

Just because you don't like it or agree with it doesn't make it CRAP. Everything on here stems from the notion of MUSIC in CHURCHES - where's the problem? It's been a great thread, great fun and any emerging differences (ahem) have been solved in fine old style with recourse to The Good Wine of Life & Conviviality - though I might add, Don, that most Catholics of my acquaintance take Christ at his word and are total pissheads as a result!

On the subject of which, here's a Medieval song collected by those venerable monks of Benediktbeuern into their 13th Century Codex Buranus which sums up much of the above discussion & echoes my own feelings on the subject.

IN TABERNA QUANDO SUMUS

In taberna quando sumus,
non curamus quid sit humus,
sed ad ludum properamus,
cui semper insudamus.
quid agatur in taberna
ubi nummus est pincerna,
hoc est opus ut quaeratur;
si quid loquar, audiatur.

Quidam ludunt,
quidam bibunt,
quidam indiscrete vivunt.
sed in ludo qui morantur,
ex his quidam denudantur,
quidam ibi vestiuntur,
quidam saccis induuntur;
ibi nullus timet mortem,
sed pro Baccho mittunt sortem.

Primo pro nummata vini;
ex hac bibunt libertini;
semel bibunt pro captivis,
post haec bibunt ter pro vivis,
quater pro Christianis cunctis,
quinquies pro fidelibus defunctis,
sexies pro sororibus vanis,
septies pro militibus silvanis.
octies pro fratribus perversis,
nonies pro monachis dispersis,
decies pro navigantibus,
undecies pro discordantibus,
duodecies pro paenitentibus,
tredecies pro iter agentibus.

Tam pro papa quam pro rege
bibunt omnes sine lege.
Bibit hera, bibit herus,
bibit miles, bibit clerus,
bibit ille, bibit illa,
bibit servus cum ancilla,
bibit velox, bibit piger,
bibit albus, bibit niger,
bibit constans, bibit vagus,
bibit rudis, bibit magus,
Bibit pauper et aegrotus,
bibit exul et ignotus,
bibit puer, bibit canus,
bibit praesul et decanus,
bibit soror, bibit frater,
bibit anus, bibit mater,
bibit ista, bibit ille,
bibunt centum, bibunt mille.

Parum sescentae nummatae
durant cum immoderate
bibunt omnes sine meta,
quamvis bibant mente laeta;
sic nos rodunt omnes gentes,
et sic erimus egentes.
qui nos rodunt confundantur
et cum iustis non scribantur.

Translated:

When we are in the tavern, we do not care about what earth is (i.e. what we are made of), we set about gambling and over that we always sweat. We must investigate what happens in the tavern where money is the butler; pay attention to what I say.

Some gamble, some drink, some live without discretion. From those who spend their time in gambling, some are stripped bare, some win clothes, some are dressed in sacks; there no-one fears death, but for the wine they throw dice.

First, for the payment of the wine (i.e. who pays for the wine). Then the boozers start to drink; they drink once to those in prison, after that, three times for the living, four times for all Christendom, five times for the faithful departed, six times for sisters of loose virtue, seven times for soldiers of the forest, eight times for brothers in error, nine times for scattered monks, ten times for those who sail, eleven times for men quarrelling, twelve times for those doing penance, thirteen times for those on journeys.

For pope and king alike all drink without restraint.

The mistress drinks, so does the master, the soldier drinks, so does the cleric, that man drinks, that woman drinks, the servant drinks with the maid, the fast man drinks, so does the slow, the white man drinks, so does the black, the stay-at-home drinks, so does the wanderer, the fool drinks, so does the scholar.

The poor drink, and the sick, the exile and the unknown, the boy, the greybeard, the bishop, the deacon, sister, brother, old woman, mother, that woman, this man, they drink by the hundred, by the thousand.

Large sums of money last too short a time when everybody drinks without moderation and limit, even though they drink with a happy heart; in this everyone sponges on us and it will make us poor.

Damnation to those who sponge on us! Put not their names in the book of Just.

*

Some of you will no doubt recognise this from Carl Orff's famous setting, but here it is on YouTube sung to its original Medieval melody in fine old style by the Clemencic Consort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMYyQS3CefU

Also in the Codex Buranus we find the blasphemous Gambler's Mass, which echoes the Asinaria Festa in much of its anti-clerical sentiments. Without doubt such secular shit-slinging (literally in the case of the Asinaria Festa) took part in Churches, Monasteries, Abbeys and Cathedrals throughout medieval Europe and the UK. It was all part of the general crack of the thing - jovial, human, inclusive, earthy, obscene, carnal, divine - the very concerns we see echoed in the songs of the Codex Buranus and Misericord carvings.