BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 10:17 PM

LOARGHH

Beats what the Nigerians have to offer.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:05 AM

Here's a link to more background provided by Bloomberg for the impact of the Ethiopian, with the support of the United States, invasion of Somalia: Click here for report

A major conclusion in the report:

In 2006, militant supporters of the Islamic Courts Union, an alliance of Sharia tribunals, won control of Somalia and imposed religious law.

"Under the Courts, there was literally no piracy," says Hans Tino Hansen, chief executive of Risk Intelligence, a maritime security consultant in Denmark.

Then the U.S. helped drive out the Muslim rulers to prevent the East African country from becoming a terrorist haven, leaving behind a lawless chaos in which piracy has flourished.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:13 AM

In other words, it has become a terrorist haven.

:-\

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:19 AM

They didn't really do it to prevent the area from becoming a terrorist haven, though. In their effort to "prevent the country from becoming a terrorist haven", they provided support to the very warlords who killed those US Marines and dragged them around Mogadishu over a decade ago. And now that they've gotten rid of the more moderate Muslim alliance that was governing the area, they now have extremists who stone 13 year old girls for being raped governing some areas and working hard to take over the rest of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:42 AM

The moderate ones, however, are the ones who said they were going to crack the pirate's heads for stealing a ship from a Muslim country.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:23 PM

We in the West are talking about bombing cities (which have civilians living in them) in order to kill the pirates. How is that better than the moderate Muslim government cracking the heads of pirates?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:48 PM

I imagine there's a name for that argument technique. ;) Is it called trick-question-from-left-field?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:45 PM

Just pointing out what I thought was obvious.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:52 PM

On the other hand, I could have misinterpreted the post that came before my second to last one. It could be that that post was intended to show that the more moderate Muslim regime that the US and Ethiopia overthrew were preferable in reference to their approach to dealing with the pirates.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:11 PM

no, no. I was talking shit about them.

But please admit you find the Muslim versus non-Muslim stealing/kidnapping/ransomming thing just a teeny tiny bit offensive for a group that would like to call themselves a government.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:43 PM

My opinion is that finding them offensive is a luxury that we in the US can afford, but the people in Somalia might see differently, because their lives and their ability to function as a society might depend on the people we find offensive. I find the idea of sitting in my comfy home in a mostly secure country, making self-righteous judgements about the only stable government Somalia has had in years, and one that was less prone to violating human rights than the dictator we were propping up before, and the warlords who are trying to take over now, to be a pretty cheezy thing to do, and I prefer not to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:49 PM

Not a teeeeny tiny small little bit?





;)
(As always - I will ponder your insightful viewpoint.)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:20 PM

Hey wait a minute!! Who's being condescending towards them: Me, or you! I simply suggested they can and should live up to basic standards of decency in any country rich or poor.

If you live in some poor small country with major setbacks, you can still be proud, with moral integrity of world class standards. It is not cheezy to recognize that such people can do exactly that - rather than, openly and without shame, assert that piracy against those not of our religion is only a lesser crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:36 PM

I was asked whether or not I find them offensive. I don't feel that I am in a position to make such judgements. I feel that my job is to concern myself with what my country is doing that it shouldn't, or what it isn't doing as well as it should. It feels cheezy to me if I make such judgements about others while my own country is responsible for much of the suffering in their country.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:41 PM

"In 2006, militant supporters of the Islamic Courts Union, an alliance of Sharia tribunals, won control of Somalia and imposed religious law.

"Under the Courts, there was literally no piracy," says Hans Tino Hansen, chief executive of Risk Intelligence, a maritime security consultant in Denmark.

Then the U.S. helped drive out the Muslim rulers to prevent the East African country from becoming a terrorist haven, leaving behind a lawless chaos in which piracy has flourished." - Charley Noble

Sorry Chuck, I've never heard such a load of bollocks in all my life, you obviously do not know a single thing about the area of the world you are talking about and are desperately cherry-picking things to provide a band of bandits with justification and an excuse for what they are doing.

So from what you have posted "piracy" only became a problem after 2006 because the US got the Ethiopians to "invade" Somalia, be rather difficult to establish that, I mean who provided the Ethiopians with all that Warsaw Pact Hardware??? Who was it that over threw "The Lion of Juda", wasn't the Americans was it Chuck??

I'll let you into a little secret Chuck - Piracy has been a problem in the Gulf of Aden, off the Horn of Africa for at least the past 42 years that I have been aware of.

By the bye, one thing you were right about:

"...new Somali pirate song I was able to harvest from the web:

By Susanna Viljanen, © 11-29-08
Parody of "Sleigh Ride"

Sea Raid (The Somali Pirate Song)

It's not a particularly good one, in my opinion, but it's fresh!

Charley Noble"

That's it Charlie - never mind the quality feel the width - Not particularly good!!!! - Try absolutely bloody pathetic as a description of it. I mean!! I ask you:

"Giddy-up, giddy-up, giddy-up, raid we
We're wolves of the sea -"

What was the dozey cow thinking about??

You, and that songs composer, should have a go putting yourselves on the business end of one of those AK-47's you seem so keen on singing about - then tell us all how bloody enjoyable it is, maybe you could "camcord" it, could end up as a pay day on AFV. Tell you what Chuck - give us a shanty about mugging - exactly the same crime - different setting - different scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:43 PM

Sorry to interrupt the interesting political discussion but I just found another news update with regard to the pirates aboard the Ukrainian tank transport. The pirates acknowledge that they'll get a relatively modest portion of the $3 million proposed ransom; the lion's share gets ripped off by all the go-betweens: click here for report

There's a great photo of the Somali pirates aboard the MV Faina.

These Somali pirates really have a tough row to hoe.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:56 PM

Exactly as I said Chuck - "....mugging - exactly the same crime - different setting - different scale."

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:11 PM

(But your country's alleged failure is not having appreciated the qualities of these governing people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:34 PM

My country's failure is mistaking the resources of other countries for its own, and being willing to forcefully insinuate itself into the affairs of those countries in its efforts to control those resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:01 PM

Teribus-

I probably know much more about this area of the world than most people at Mudcat central, and even more than you. And it is confusing at best, and deadly at worst. I do kind of admire the pirates; they've got a lot of guts to do what they are doing. But they are doomed.

I was in Ethiopia from 1965 and 1968, and I'm planning to return there this February but not to anywhere near the Ogaden or Eritrea. I'm curious but not stupid.

I do think the U.S. made a major mistake in encouraging the Ethiopians to invade Somalia to displace the Islamic Courts rule, and the Ethiopians now have admitted that the mission is futile and are preparing to withdraw. I'm sorry but there just isn't any Somali warlord that has the power to hold Somalia for the West against the Islamic rebels. And I doubt if the Islamic rebels are really tools of Al-Qaida. They've got their own agenda, and it's just not compatible with ours or with major international oil companies.

Want to blow some more smoke?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 06:09 AM

Well then Charlie, would you like a list of the various places round the world that I visited 40 years ago - that would make me as much of an "expert" in them as you claim to be on Somalia. The periods you mention would put you in the country about 5 years after its formation from the former Protectorates of British and Italian Somaliland and the year before the military coup that swept General Siad Barre into power in 1969.

The Ogaden War 1977-1978 - Let's take a look at the international players interested in this. The "war" between Somalia and Ethiopia was started unilaterally by Somalia in an attempt to take over the region, which had been parted from Somalia by the British in a peace treaty in the 1880's. In this dispute the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries refused to help Somalia, and instead, backed Communist Ethiopia. The Somali's did very well initially, winning in most of the Ogaden, but with Somali forces at the gates of Addis Ababa, Soviet weaponry and Cuban forces came to the aid of Ethiopia. The Somali Army was hammered and playing the old "Cold War" Game, Somalia sought the help of the United States. Unfortunate timing for the Somali's though as the man at the helm of the US of A at that time was none other than Peanut Carter himself and although the Carter Administration originally expressed interest in helping Somalia he later declined, as he did not feel up to confronting the Soviets, albeit by proxy, in this period of supposed détente. So sorry Charlie, CarolC, et al, no US involvement there.

Losing the war that he had started to retake the Ogaden didn't do Barre very much too good, things started to slip and resistance movements were set up and backed by - Guess who Chuck?? The Ethiopians aided and abetted by their pals of long standing - The Russians. Barre was finally ousted by a combined force of northern and southern based clans all of whom, as previously stated, were backed and armed by Ethiopia. And following a meeting of the Somali National Movement and northern clans' elders, the northern former British portion of the country declared its independence as Somaliland in May 1991; although de facto independent and relatively stable compared to the rest of the country it has no official recognition by the UN or any other foreign government.

After that everything basically fell apart none of the other tribal factions could agree on how the country (Somalia) was going to be ruled, or by whom. Things get so bad that by 1992 the UN steps in, they attain limited success in combating famine in the Southern part of Somalia, just sufficient to get all the Somalis who had been fighting fit enough to resume the bloodshed. A further UN Mandate is given for a US led UN force to make the South of the Country safe enough to allow humanitarian assistance work to be undertaken. Well that all goes to rats when instead of maintaining a balance this US-led force decides to take on the biggest "warlord" in the area on his own turf. Aidid won that one and the UN depart on 3rd March, 1995, fifteen months or so later Aidid gets killed, and once again chaos reigns supreme.

So far Charlie we've had outside interference from Russia, Cuba, Ethiopia and the United Nations - Note Charlie, the United Nations, not the USA.

Between Aidid's death in June 1996 and November 2004 things bimble along in Somalia with various provinces declaring themselves autonomous regions, and the Somali people generally having a pretty bloody time. In November 2004 a group of Somali leaders met in Kenya and drew up what they called a charter for the government of the nation - They called themselves the Transitional Federal Government. Over the next couple of years this crowd are making the right noises outside of Somalia and gain the backing of - Guess who Charlie??? - Ethiopia, after all that is exactly the same model that had been used by the Ethiopians themselves 13 years earlier.

Early in 2006 fighting breaks out between an alliance of Mogadishu warlords calling themselves the Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counter-Terrorism (or "ARPCT") and the armed militia of another crowd calling themselves the Islamic Courts Union (or "I.C.U.") who are seeking to institute Sharia law in Somalia. Now note this Charlie, neither of these mobs actually controlled or ruled anything, so please stop referring to any peaceful and halcyon days enjoyed by the people of Somalia under the rule of Sharia Law and the ICU - never happened - stoning of a 13 year girl who had been gang-raped did.

In this fighting in Mogadishu, the ICU accused the CIA, of backing the ARPCT, this was reported in the UK by the Guardian, which more-or-less must guarantee it to be incorrect. The US State Department have not commented on it, which was probably the best course of action to take.

The ICU suceed in forcing the ARPCT out of Mogadishu and the Ethiopian-supported Transitional Federal Government then call for intervention by a regional East African peacekeeping force. The I.C.U. respond to this by making the claim that Ethiopia, with its long history as an imperial power including the occupation of Ogaden, seeks to occupy Somalia, or rule it by proxy.

In December 2006 TFG and Ethiopian troops took Mogadishu and drove the ICU into the South of the country, by January 2007 the ICU was largely defeated. Since then new Islamic militant groups organise, and continue to fight against TFG Somali and Ethiopian official troops. So far they've recovered effective control of large portions of the country, and continue to fight in Mogadishu. The Transitional Federal Government however, continues to control Mogadishu and Baidoa.

Now Charlie apart from one instance of being accused of backing ARPCT, which has not been proven one way or the other, US involvement in Somalia seems to have been restricted to UN Mandated operations in the early to mid 1990's. And the fact remains nobody is prospecting for any of the supposed "Oil Riches" of Somalia (The Ogaden Charlie, where those Chinese oilmen were killed, is located in Ethiopia).

Ethiopias close foreign ties lean more towards Russia, China and the EU. Between 1980 and 1992 the US did not even have an Ambassador in Ethiopia, since the fall of the Derg the US has provided Ethiopia with about $2.3 billion in aid, as to how that is spent the figures for the 2007 financial year indicate that out of $474 million given $264 million (56% of the total) went towards combating HIV/AIDS not Somalis.

Enough smoke for you Chuck??

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:27 AM

I'm confused about something now. At the time (October 27 and soon therafter) I thought the stadium stoning was attributed not to the Islamic Courts Union, but to supporters of al-Shabab (which I have referred to above as "the bad Muslims," whom I thought weakened the ICU.)   Now when I went to re-check, the great bulk of articles attribute the verdict and sentencing to the ICU. Kismayo, a port city where the stoning occurred, was captured in August by a coalition loyal to "rebel leader" Hassan Turki and al-Shabab.

Was this stoning the handiwork of both groups? Are they not at odds?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 11:13 AM

Some of the members of the armed forces of the ICU broke away from that organization and formed the more extremists and violent group that is responsible for the stoning. They are not the same group at all, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if a lot of the Western media want to mislead people into believing that they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 11:51 AM

Wikipedia describes a man who is an ICU remnant, rather than a break-away (not saying you're wrong):

Sheik Hassan Abdullah Hersi al-Turki (also known as Hassan Al-Turki, or "Al-Turki"–"The Turk"), an Islamist leader in Somalia, is a military leader in the Islamic Courts Union and formerly a leader of Al-Itihaad al-Islamiya. He is from the Ogaden clan, Reer - Abdille subclan. On June 3, 2004, Hassan Al-Turki was designated, under US Presidential Executive Order 13224, for terrorist financing.[1] He was born in 1944 in the Ogaden region in Ethiopia.[2] It is believed that after the loss of the Ogaden War, he left Ethiopia to continue his revolutionary efforts in Somalia.[3]

Turki was targeted in a US fighter jet strike on March 2nd, 2008. US fighter jets struck the southern Somali town of Dobley. The bombings by the AC-130 gunships targeted two homes in the town that were allegedly visited by Turki, who is believed to have ties to al-Qaeda. [4]

Main articles: Rise of the Islamic Courts Union (2006) and War in Somalia (2006–present)
Hassan Al-Turki became a military leader of the Islamic Courts Union (ICU), and has been in charge of Dhobley district near the Kenyan border.[5] He led the forces of the ICU in the taking of Jubaland.

On September 23 2006, his forces approached Jilib, en route to Kismayo. Juba Valley Alliance forces withdrew without a fight.[6] After the city fell, on September 24, he promised peace to the city after Islamic militiamen broke up an anti-Islamist demonstration with gunfire, killing three teenagers.[7] (Also see: Juba Valley Alliance: War In Somalia) Al-Turki addressed people in Kismayo telling them the region would be under the Islamic law. "This city is seized by Islamic forces including all tribes of Somali men, welcome to the new peace brought to this city and I promise you will live in security and prosperity," Sheikh Hassan Al-Turki said.[8]

Hassan Turki evaded capture by Somalia's transitional government since the Islamic Courts were forced from power by Somali and Ethiopian troops. In September 2007, he was running a military training camp on the Kenyan-Somali border. [9]

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 12:51 PM

From what I've been reading, the UIC has more or less dissolved and doesn't really exist in any active form. It was a union of courts, each of which arose independently in a specific area to address the problems of trying to create some sort of order out of chaos, and to establish a civil infrastructure. After the different courts formed the union, that union formed an armed wing. Once the UIC was chased out of the areas where they held power, they ceased to exist in any meaningful form, but Al-Shabaab remained active as a force to fight the Ethiopian occupation. However, some people who held high ranking positions within the union still consider themselves to be members of the UIC. These people have been having stark disagreements with Al-Shabaab, and do not recognize them as a part of the UIC.

I guess the best comparison I could think of would be if the US government dissolved, but the army remained and took off on its own to do whatever it decided to do without the government to act as a moderating influence.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 05:31 PM

Lots of homework being done here. Not bad at all!

I don't disagree with much of Teribus' narrative, except for the role of the United States.

An odd footnote to that history is that just before the Emperor Haile Sallassie was deposed by a left wing army coup in or around 1974, Somalia was allied withe the Soviet Union. After the successful coup, the Soviet Union switched to Ethiopia. The United States had been long time supporters of Sellassie and was quite distressed to see him go.

I would also maintain that the United States has had a major role in supporting the invasion of Somalia by Ethiopian troops, providing them detailed intelligence and some naval and air support.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 10:37 AM

The latest update with the headline that "Defiant Somali pirates await EU navy force": click here for article

The European Union is evidently sending 6 naval units to augment its presence in the Gulf of Aden.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 11:31 AM

Today's update describes a thwarted attempt by Somali pirates to capture a Dutch ship off the coast of Tanzania, a thousand miles south of Northern Somalia: Click here for article

The ship was fired upon and was hit but was able to escape at its maximum speed.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 10:16 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 08:46 AM

Well, suggestions to invest in "pirate futures" may have been ill-advised given this statement from the Somali "government" in support of a draft UN resolution to permit UN forces to attach and pursue pirates at sea and on shore within Somali territory: click here for article

"The government cordially welcomes the United Nations to fight pirates inland and (on) the Indian Ocean," said Hussein Mohamed Mohamud, spokesman for Somali President Abdullahi Yusuf.

"We're also willing to give them a hand in case they need our assistance," Mohamud told Reuters in the capital Mogadishu.

Anyone willing to match my bet that it will be at least 6 months before the UN adopts this proposed resolution?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:36 AM

>"The government cordially welcomes you to fight pirates inland and (on) the Indian Ocean,"<

What a delightful invitation! Say no more I'm on my way.

It beats the tourism slogan of any other country. Bermuda paid an ad agency more than $10 million for "Out of the blue."

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:43 AM

There's a time limit on Listen Again - sorry.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM

Somebody's not eating their bran flakes!

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:48 PM

Heric-

If this wasn't such a serious story, real people being endangered for profit, it would make a great Woody Allen comedy. They even grow bananas in Somalia, or they used to!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:45 AM

Here's an update on some of the legal issues with regard to prosecuting "suspected pirates": click here for article

Interesting!

"Putting Pirates in the Dock" LOL

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 09:05 AM

For those keeping score, the Indian Navy announced today their successful capture of 23 suspected pirates, both Somali and Yemeni, in the Gulf of Aden: click here for article

In addition to the 12 Somali and 11 Yemeni suspects, the Indian navy seized two small boats and "a substantial cache of arms and equipment," the military said in a statement.

"Among the seized items were seven AK-47 automatic rifles, three other automatic weapons and 13 loaded magazines; a rocket-propelled grenade launcher along with rockets, cartridges and grenades; up to three outboard motors and a global positioning system receiver."

Now they've got the thorny problem of figuring out what to do with them.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 08:29 PM

Refreshing once!

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:06 AM

I know that it is a "serious" subject, and that, as adults, we are obliged to consider this issue with the appropriate gravity, but I must confess a certain child-like delight at hearing reports about battles with pirates on the morning news.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:05 PM

Exactly!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:57 PM

Here's a recent and more comprehensive article from Time Magazine with a haunting set of images of various captive "pirates": click here for article

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:18 AM

Well then M.Tted and Charley, I fervently hope that the pair of you get the opportunity to display that "certain child-like delight" when you actually experience a battle with pirates. A friend of mine, a Norwegian Merchant Navy Captain, has had three such encounters, all of which he said were terrifying, in the last he lost his left arm just below the elbow - he was wearing a watch you see. Because of this he will not be subjected to another mainly due to the fact that he can no longer "follow the sea" as a profession.

I read reports today that following attacks on three Chinese vessels the Chinese Government is sending a naval force to the area which should be interesting. It's the first time in 600 years that Chinese warships have left "home" waters.

On this the EU wants to pull its head out of its a**e and forget all this nonsense about "Piracy" being a crime, its not, its an act of war and should be responded to as such. Instructions with regard to rules of engagement to warships patrolling the area should be fire on sight and destroy. The intention should be to make anyone in Somalia think twice before they think of even taking a walk along the beach. I am totally disinterested in whatever excuses are invented for what is happening in that corner of the world, what is going on is totally unacceptable and that message must be impressed upon those engaged in this "business". The sooner that this is done the better as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:51 PM

Teribus-

That's an interesting point, that piracy is not a "crime" but an "act of war." But Somalia is a "failed state" and most observers agree that the current "government" is flying apart. Can there be "war" without a "state?" Or in your opinion, does it even matter.

"Firing on sight and destroying" may be the most effective deterrent for future piracy, but it also runs the risk of recruiting more volunteers for the world wide battle against the non-Moslem world, recruiting volunteers who were only interested in economic crimes. Furthermore military commanders in the Gulf of Aden are cautious about pursuing pirates to their home ports and destroying their infrastructure and homes, despite the new UN resolution. The collateral damage that would likely occur would also embitter people who have little else to lose.

You may be "totally disinterested in whatever excuses are invented" but that is precisely the kind of attitude that recruits volunteers for groups such as Al Qada.

I welcome the Chinese Navy in the Gulf of Aden and hope they have learned some lessons in when and how to use force to protect international commerce.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:30 PM

Point 1:
"That's an interesting point, that piracy is not a "crime" but an "act of war." But Somalia is a "failed state" and most observers agree that the current "government" is flying apart. Can there be "war" without a "state?" Or in your opinion, does it even matter."

Of course there can Charley, you are fighting a war now, the war on terror, where there is no state. It is one of the most important wars that western civilisation has ever fought, get your head round it and get behind it, because there is no negotiation with your foe, he wants you and your way of life destroyed completely.

Point 2:
"Firing on sight and destroying" may be the most effective deterrent for future piracy, but it also runs the risk of recruiting more volunteers for the world wide battle against the non-Moslem world, recruiting volunteers who were only interested in economic crimes."

As has been seen in Iraq where the likes of the Jihadists and Al-Qaeda have been tempted into "open" combat - they die, and they die in vast numbers. No risk, you hammer them from their ports, you hammer every bloody thing that sets out from the coasts of Somalia and Yemen, you imprint on their minds that it is they who must signal first to the world at large that they set sail with peaceful intent. Establish shipping lanes, then IF any daft twats in small boats armed to teeth with RPG7's and AK47's wander into those shipping lanes they will die. Death Charley is not a great a recruiting Sergeant, as Al-Qaeda has found in Iraq.

"Furthermore military commanders in the Gulf of Aden are cautious about pursuing pirates to their home ports and destroying their infrastructure and homes, despite the new UN resolution. The collateral damage that would likely occur would also embitter people who have little else to lose."

Then replace the military commanders for ones who will for every attempt at piracy will close the coast and subject "pirate" ports to 12 hours of naval bombardment, imprint on the minds of those living there that the pirates that you seem to love and romaticize about are a bloody liability, and I mean literally a "bloody" liability.

"You may be "totally disinterested in whatever excuses are invented" but that is precisely the kind of attitude that recruits volunteers for groups such as Al Qada."

Em, No it doesn't Charley, the fact that those who swell the "pirate" ranks think that they may get rich from their enterprise recruits volunteers. If your so-loved "pirates" and the people in the communities that support them start dying in droves because of the activities of "pirates" them the learning curve becomes quite short and "piracy" as an occupation gets abandoned pdq on account of the health risks involved.

"I welcome the Chinese Navy in the Gulf of Aden and hope they have learned some lessons in when and how to use force to protect international commerce."

I said that I would be interested to see what the Chinese Naval forces are going to do. My bet, it will be like a repeat of the Russian Fleet sailing to take on the Japanese in 1905. They have no distant force projection experience, their RAS skills if anything like the old Soviet Navy will be laughable, their effectiveness minimal.

Pirates, Charley Noble, you engage on sight, you do everything in your power to sink them on sight, they have no human rights, they left those behind ashore the minute they set sail to plunder and rob, they, through choice, put themselves outwith the law. You do not take prisoners, you do not capture people for trials, you kill them there and then. Lessons learned are then simple and very, very clear to understand from everybodies point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:43 PM

Teribus-

Fortunately for the American armed forces, General Petraeus radically changed the tactics used for putting down the Iraqi insurrection. He replaced the shoot on sight, call in air support when you're in difficulty, with hiring former militants to root out the more radical domestic elements and their foreign allies. Having the smarts to know who to hire and who not to hire has helped in a major way to make the surge a military success; our manpower and military hardware would never have been sufficient unless we were willing to slaughter every Iraqi man women and child, and that would have been an unacceptable victory.

With regard to the Somalis, I would hardly recommend what appears to be your preferred military response. Who was it who first said "If every problem were a nail, the hammer would be the solution"?

Understanding your enemy, his strengths and his weaknesses, is key to success.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:56 AM

You are comparing apples to oranges and you know it.

What you are looking at off the coasts of Somalia and Yemen has no "political" dimension, what the "pirates" are doing is solely for monetary gain.

General Paraeus had an Iraqi Government to work with, in Somalia there is nothing.

Your "solution":

"And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane."

Courtesy of Rudyard Kipling.

Pirates are vermin and should be put down as such - it discourages others who might fancy trying to make a living that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:35 PM

Surprisingly, we won't agree on this thread discussion either.

And it is General "Petraeus" for the record. When I can't spell someone's name I utilize copy and paste.

The Somali pirates need to be put down but describing them (and all other pirates) as "vermin" ignores who they actually are and why they are doing what they are doing.

It seems naive to me that you think there are no political dimensions to what is occurring in the Gulf of Aden.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 12:38 AM

Again, it's a case of the doctor treating the symptoms rather than looking at the causes & the actual reality of the situation. While I see pirates in the same light as terrorists, which is they belong in hell, that doesn't mean blast away like we do everywhere else. With just a bit of study & examination of the problem we're much more likely to come up with a better solution than the Iraqi "fire away at every thing & everyone" way.
It's always "fire away", not one ounce of thought about the pros & cons, not thought about the who gets clobbered along the way & why, not thought about what's created the situation, no thought of talk, no thoughts at all, it's no wonder we are in such a mess everywhere we go, christ we didn't even know how some middle east cultures had a hate dogs when we baited them with Fido. Same damn reaction we use when it comes to terrorists, not thought, no reason, no use talking, some will never seek out the causes they only care to treat pronblem by treating the symptoms & they never understand that unless we find the cause the problems will never be cured.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:31 PM

Barry-

Thanks for supporting a more balanced approach to dealing with piracy than that advocated by our straight-shooting messmate above.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:40 PM

Meanwhile here's an update on the issues facing the Obama Administration when it comes to power in January: click here for article

I can't resist quoting one paragraph which has a delightful typo:

"Ethiopia, which has been protecting the ineffectual and fractured Somali government, recently announced it would withdraw its troops by the end of this month. That will leave the Western-baked (sic) government vulnerable to Islamic insurgents and further chaos."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble