BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:02 AM

Do you have the slightest evidence for this statement or is it your suggestion that anybody who champions Palestine is automatically 'Antisemitic'?
There is no evidence at present that anybody under scrutiny in the Labour Party ia guilty of Antisemitism and all the usual suspect here have come up with are innuendos generated, beyond a shred of doubt, by the Israeli propaganda machine - they are traceable back to Pro-Israeli propaganda organisations.
It seems you are a willing supporter of that Pro-Israeli propaganda.
You have now weighed in with exactly the same sort of innuendo.
What exactly is the basis for your statement that "there is a twisted anti-Semitism amongst many of the Labour Party members" - do you have any evidence on this and are you going to offer any of that evidence to any enquiry to be held - of course you haven't and you certainly aren't going to offer it here.
If more evidence were needed that this whole thing has been generated by pro-Israel propaganda, you have just given it - "championing the cause of the Palestinian people" - "shamelessly abused by their own successive leadership" - " and Global political groupings," - the very language of propaganda.
Many thanks for putting this whole issue exactly where it belonged from the beginning, the Labour Party Vs Antisemitism should read 'the progressive people of Britain vs Israeli Apartheid regime's propaganda.
For all its faults and flaws, The Labour Party was created by the working people of Britain to protect its rights and better its conditions - it is little wonder that you have joined the side you have in this squalid bovver-boy kicking match.
As for being rude to Keith - perhaps you might like the total number of times he has used the term "liar" to describe members of this forum over the last couple of weeks - another candidate for the Guinness Book of Records.
I'm off to visit another thread now where, I have little doubt, there will be additions, if not yet, shortly.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:45 AM

I have said that Labour has a problem with antisemitism, according to many senior members.

That is an indisputable fact, and because you can not challenge it, you resort to personal smears as usual.

Jim,
You have been misquoting throughout

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE A MISQUOTE!!

Steve,
Keith, you deliberately misquote all the time.

Then produce one. Do not just refer to it as if it was true, produce it.

I exposed you over Geoffrey Wheatcroft, one of the most shameful episodes of persistent lying ever seen on this forum,

You claimed it back in 2014, but you can not deny that I had quoted Wheatcroft accurately and in full. No need to misquote because he supported my case. That is why I quoted him, accurately and in full.

and you did it again over Jackie Walker in this thread.

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE THE MISQUOTE!!

You ascribe statements to people that they haven't made,

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE A MISQUOTE!!

Confident prediction, none will be produced.
It is all just lying smears because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:56 AM

So what were 50 members suspended for? What are they under investigation for by the Labour Party compliance unit? Or do the usual suspects really believe that the 50 suspended members were the subjects of a smear campaign mounted by Keith A of Hertford or bobad?

Mr Shaw your questions should be directed towards the Compliance Unit of the Labour Party, not members of this forum who are only reading the news as it unfolds. Care to explain why the suspension of these 50 members was carried out in secret? I mean if the leadership truly believed the charges to be groundless why opt for this total lack of transparency?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 04:07 AM

"So what were 50 members suspended for? What are they under investigation for by the Labour Party compliance unit?"
I would have though that obvious - even to you - an accusation has been made and is in need of investigation?
I would have been irresponsible to have done otherwise.
No problems with investigations - I wonder how many members of the Tory Party would be under investigation in the unthinkable situation of their having such an enquiry.
The right is the traditional home of Antisemitism (6 million witnesses attest to this fact).
Anti-Semitic Tories were putting together a provisional government for when "Herr Hitler" won the day while the people of Britain were huddled in their air-raid shelters.   
As they say - "home is where the heart is"
"I have said that Labour has a problem with antisemitism, according to many senior members."
Of course you "have to say" that;'s the kind of feller you are.
Apparently you have to produce no proof, that's the kind of feller you are too
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 04:29 AM

"What exactly is the basis for your statement that "there is a twisted anti-Semitism amongst many of the Labour Party members""

I have heard it often from comrades who appear to be perfectly reasonable on most other political issues.

To resolve the problem one must use pragmatism.......the "liberal left" is not noted for this virtue, they are ideologically programmed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 04:54 AM

What about those "misquotes" Jim.
Can you produce one?
No you can't.
Just lying smears because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:00 AM

"I have said that Labour has a problem with antisemitism, according to many senior members."
Of course you "have to say" that;'s the kind of feller you are.

I said it because it is an indisputable fact.

Apparently you have to produce no proof, that's the kind of feller you are too

I did produce proof, in the form of actual quotes of senior Labour members stating that Labour has a problem with antisemitism.

Now, what about those "misquotes" Jim?
You were just lying because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:51 AM

Well now, Teribus wades in with his "secret suspensions" angle. Google "Labour secret suspensions", or "Labour 50 suspensions", what do you get? No, really try it! The Daily Torygraph and a bunch of references to the Israeli press bigging up the "secrecy," or something in the Sun. Isn't it amazing how the "secret" didn't last! You see, Teribus, there is a difference between, on the one hand, doing a big secret conspiratorial cover-up thing and, on the other hand, not shouting names from the rooftops of people who are being investigated but not yet shown to be guilty of anything. The Labour Party has recognised that there is an issue and is taking action to investigate it and ultimately root out anyone shown to be guilty. I call that highly responsible. The Catholic Church has been riddled with antisemitism for centuries. Do you think we need an enquiry then? What about the Tories? UKIP? Who's being responsible?

You want examples of your misquotes, Keith? Geoffrey Wheatcroft wrote about AJP Taylor's book being rather vulgar and Clark's being largely fraudulent. You very helpfully " interpreted" that for us by telling us that he'd said they were both fraudulent. That's what you said, in one of your posts. You refused to correct this serious misrepresentation over and over again. In fact, you told us it was OK because you'd quoted the quote elsewhere and in any case were "only speaking generally." In other words, it's fine to lie in one place as long as you tell the truth in another. Well I call that totally unreliable and untrustworthy behaviour, and I won't drop it until you acknowledge the error, after which I'll never mention it again. In this thread you misquoted Jackie Butler by leaving relevant parts of her remarks out in a clear attempt to make what she said look worse than it was. It's all up there in the thread. I took you to pieces on that and, again, you failed to acknowledge your error. You tried to bracket me with people who I said are ardently pro-Israel by omitting "ardently," a clear misrepresentation. This is what you do, and we spend half the bloody time not debating with you but telling you to tell the truth. You lied over and over again this thread about EU "antisemitism guidelines" that are no such thing, but Keith dearly loves them and wants them to be real, but the only "proof" he could provide was that an internal EU quango was still using them unofficially, a setup that is "advised" by a whole bunch of pro-Israel lobby groups. And to cap it all you enthusiastically ally yourself to the most fraudulent bigot on this board. You seriously need to sort yourself out, mate.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 06:18 AM

Steve, you again post lots of accusations but nothing to back them.
If I have misquoted anyone, produce it!
Do not just refer to it as if it was true, PRODUCE IT!

. In this thread you misquoted Jackie Butler by leaving relevant parts of her remarks out in a clear attempt to make what she said look worse than it was. It's all up there in the thread.

Produce it then!

Wheatcroft?
You can not deny that I had quoted Wheatcroft accurately and in full back in 2014.
No need to misquote because he supported my case. That is why I quoted him, accurately and in full.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 06:42 AM

I think the thread title should be changed to "Wither the Labour Party". 😜😜😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 07:04 AM

And I think you should be ashamed of yourself. You cheated everyone on this board by being both bobad and an anonymous, name-calling Guest. Your "humour" is misplaced. Maybe Keith's laughing, who knows.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM

"Produce it," Keith? I've produced everything I've caught you doing over and over again. That latest post of yours is just you making a complete fool of yourself. Read my post again. It's all there, and it's all in the threads down the years.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 08:00 AM

Wither the Labour Party. 😜😜😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 08:30 AM

OK, one more time, Keith, for the delectation and entertainment of anyone left here still reading.

What Keith said in the thread "I'm not an historian, but..." on 16.12.2014 at 12.59:

"The Guardian last week described the work of Clark and Taylor as 'fraudulent'."

What Geoffrey Wheatcroft actually wrote in his Guardian article "The Myth of the Good War" on 9.12.2014, and what Keith was referring to:

"That series had been preceded in 1963 by AJP Taylor's rather vulgar book, The First World War: An Illustrated History, and Oh, What a Lovely War!, Joan Littlewood's musical pasquinade. The latter, which used the songs the Tommies had sung in the trenches, drew on Alan Clark's 1961 book The Donkeys – a largely fraudulent book, whose title derives from an invented quotation about 'lions led by donkeys', that nevertheless made a mark."

Note, good people, Keith's use of quote marks there. A perfect example of how Keith "modifies" his quoting in order to fit his agenda. In the very next post I challenged Keith's version. For weeks afterwards, as you can see if you bother to read the thread, he refused to accept that he had misrepresented Wheatcroft in his post. Unbelievable, eh? Busted, disgusting, can't be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM

OK, one more time, Keith, for the delectation and entertainment of anyone left here still reading.

What Keith said in the thread "I'm not an historian, but..." on 16.12.2014 at 12.59:

"The Guardian last week described the work of Clark and Taylor as 'fraudulent'."

What Geoffrey Wheatcroft actually wrote in his Guardian article "The Myth of the Good War" on 9.12.2014, and what Keith was referring to:

"That series had been preceded in 1963 by AJP Taylor's rather vulgar book, The First World War: An Illustrated History, and Oh, What a Lovely War!, Joan Littlewood's musical pasquinade. The latter, which used the songs the Tommies had sung in the trenches, drew on Alan Clark's 1961 book The Donkeys – a largely fraudulent book, whose title derives from an invented quotation about 'lions led by donkeys', that nevertheless made a mark."

Note, good people, Keith's use of quote marks there. A perfect example of how Keith "modifies" his quoting in order to fit his agenda. In the very next post I challenged Keith's version. For weeks afterwards, as you can see if you bother to read the thread, he refused to accept that he had misrepresented Wheatcroft in his post. Unbelievable, eh? Busted, disgusting, can't be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 09:16 AM

Keith - This is like one of those old time bare knuckle fights which lasted for far too many rounds, never an end in sight...
.. until the last stubborn dazed and confused pugilist remained standing a triumphant few seconds
before he also collapsed exhausted into welcome oblivion..... 😜

.. I reckon any Labour Party inquiries will be long time completely done and dusted,
while you are still repeating the same old loop of accusations and denials here in this thread...????


Btw.. this is actually a new experience that we all have to adjust to, not having a thread closed or deleted
while grudge matches are still fuming, not yet on the wane.....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 09:31 AM

ps.. that last contribution of mine was post number 666....😈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 09:36 AM

.. or that one.. or this one...

[insurance post in case Steve's duplicate is tidied up... 🙄]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 10:08 AM

Steve can not produce any of the misquotes he accused me of making here.
He lied.

I made the post he just quoted from 2014, but I had already linked to and quoted the relevant passage in full.
I did not quote it in full every time I referred to it.
So I did not misquote in 2014, and all his accusations of me misquoting here are lies.
He tries to smear me because he can not challenge anything I have actually said.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 10:21 AM

I'll take this one too, to extend my coverage on claiming 666, in case of thread 'adjustments'..

Though if Keith slipping in there, grabs it from under my nose...????

oh well..

..and here's me doing my good deed of the day to help protect any christian posters from the number of the beast...

..and I don't mean Boris.. 😇

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 10:32 AM

RE: WWI, was No-Man's Land
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 03:55 PM

Yesterday's Guardian.

"That series had been preceded in 1963 by AJP Taylor's rather vulgar book, The First World War: An Illustrated History, and Oh, What a Lovely War!, Joan Littlewood's musical pasquinade. The latter, which used the songs the Tommies had sung in the trenches, drew on Alan Clark's 1961 book The Donkeys – a largely fraudulent book, whose title derives from an invented quotation about "lions led by donkeys", that nevertheless made a mark.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 11:23 AM

Oh dear. And then you said he said they were both "fraudulent." See above. He didn't. I proved that you said he said it and I proved that he never said it. What more can a chap do. Do you see it now, Keith? A misquote by any measure you like, saying that he said they were both "fraudulent" when he actually said nothing of the sort. It doesn't matter what you said in your other posts. In that post you were badly wrong. You see, Keith, this is your problem. When confronted with the stark reality you simply can't take it on board. A very bad character trait, and the reason we can't trust a single thing you ever say. What a way to live, Keith. It would be nice to be not called a liar by a liar when I'm telling the whole truth, by the way. Face it, Keith. you've made yourself a laughing stock.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 02:05 PM

Wheatcroft dismissed both works using two derogatory words.
Having quoted them both originally, I did not need to keep doing so.

Steve has tried the same false accusation on many threads now.
Every time that his case is knocked down and he has nothing else.

Steve can not produce any of the misquotes he accused me of making on this thread.
He can't.
He lied.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 02:43 PM

""Irish stand down" is a type of traditional bare knuckle fighting where the aspect of maneuvering around the ring is removed,
leaving only the less nuanced aspects of punching and "taking" punches.
This form of combat was popular in Irish American ghettos in the United States in the late 19th century
but was eclipsed in the Irish American community first by bare knuckle boxing and then later by regulation boxing.
The Irish stand down is also known as strap fighting or toe to toe."

.. round one hundred and seventy six...!!!

.. the few remaining spectators are starting to inch further away closer to refreshment wagon..... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:44 PM

My God, Keith, how you wriggle and struggle. Do you think that everyone here is so thick that they can't see what you're doing? Have you no friends who can help you out here, have a word in your shell-like? You are an incredibly sad case, old chap. If I wasn't such a confounded bloody heathen, Keith, I think I'd be praying for you. Tough shit. No such prayers coming in your direction from me. Maybe I'll sacrifice a dead sausage on the barbie in your honour instead. You'll have to manage with whatever prayerfulness bobad can provide, but I have a feeling that the good Lord liveth not in his abode...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:09 PM

By the way, forum and the world in general, I may be a lot of things, doubtless some of them bad, but I never tell lies. I may be a bombastic, uncompromising leftie pillock, but I can't ever see the point of predicating arguments on falsehoods. I invite anyone here, both pro-Steve and anti-Steve, to investigate the things I've said about Keith's lack of truthfulness. Admittedly, it can take some effort in digging up old threads, and I'd never expect anyone to have the energy or motivation to do it. I can do no more than refer you to the points made by me in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:09 AM

Steve Shaw - 07 Jun 16 - 11:23 AM

Just an example of you dancing on the head of a pin Steve. It served your purposes to divert from the content of the thread which was about the First World War in which you and your pals were being hammered by fact after fact that none of you could counter, your other tactic back in those days was after it became obvious that you had lost the historical argument you did everything you could to get the thread closed.

And if I remember it correctly Keith A after having quoted the passage in full correctly, the first time the article was drawn to our attention, he then inadvertently mixed the "vulgar" and the "fraudulent". Most reasonable people would know by what he had said previously that an honest mistake had been made, everyone else having read the previous post knew exactly what he meant. In the past you and your pals have made more than enough of the same sort of errors - yet for some weird reason you give yourselves a free pass on them, wonder why that is?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:20 AM

"I may be a bombastic, uncompromising leftie pillock, but I can't ever see the point of predicating arguments on falsehoods."

Really Steve? The Wheatcroft thing, IIRC one of the points under discussion was Alan Clark's "The Donkeys" and his use of the infamous and totally fictional quote attributed to an extremely senior German Staff Office in which he was supposed to have commented that the British Army were, "Lions led by Donkeys". The contention of both Keith A, myself and others, was that that was not true and no German officer ever said that, you and your pals were of the opinion that the quote was factual. After his book had been published and Clark was challenged on this supposed quote, Clark himself admitted that he had just made it up. Now if that is not predicating an argument on a falsehood then I do not know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:37 AM

Steve, you have produced something from a 2014 thread, but nothing from this thread to support your false accusations.
Here they are again, in case you forgot.

Keith, you deliberately misquote all the time.

Then produce one. Do not just refer to it as if it was true, produce it.

and you did it again over Jackie Walker in this thread.

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE THE MISQUOTE!!

You ascribe statements to people that they haven't made,

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE A MISQUOTE!!

Confident prediction, none will be produced.
It is all just lying smears because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:38 AM

For crying out loud lads - I'm not one to complain about "thread drift" but WW*******1.
We know who tells lies and we know who are the first to accuse others of doing so (one and the same)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 04:34 AM

Easily resolved Jim.
Let Steve produce the misquotes he accuses me of.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 05:08 AM

"The contention of both Keith A, myself and others, was that that was not true and no German officer ever said that, you and your pals were of the opinion that the quote was factual. After his book had been published and Clark was challenged on this supposed quote, Clark himself admitted that he had just made it up. Now if that is not predicating an argument on a falsehood then I do not know what is."

Oh please, Teribus. You appear to have caught Keithitis. Never in my life have I claimed that that quote was "factual." Also, arguing that the fighting forces were not well-led, even if that phrase was brought into the argument, would not be predicating the argument on a falsehood. It's a colourful phrase that some would contend has a grain of truth about the situation in the war, even if the bloke who said it was lying about its origin. It is a point of view expressed in metaphorical terms that many people hold. Suppose there was an "A" Level question like this: "It has been stated that the British forces in WW1 were lions led by donkeys. Discuss." Would that be an invalid question?

I must commend you for admitting after all this time that Keith made a mistake. Did he sanction your confession, and are you now going to get him to admit to it himself? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 05:18 AM

Done and dusted at 05.51am yesterday, Keith. Keep your 'air on. Just 'cos you don't like it doesn't mean I didn't say it.

Worry not, Jim. I'm not embarking on that old WWI argument. Just illustrating with an particularly egregious example of Keith's dissembling why nothing he ever says can be trusted. I suppose we all know that anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 05:24 AM

That's all right then Steve
Don't let this pair of clowns waste time in trying to recoup old losses
You want examples of your misquotes an lies Keith - go to the Easter Week thread - plenty listed there without having to search them out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM

It's a notable feature of most online forums I've experienced that mistakes that are promptly admitted to and corrected are never commented on again. Conversely, people who are too proud or too pig-headed to backtrack rapidly attract a reputation of untrustworthiness and lack of credibility about everything they assert.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 02:45 PM

Steve, you accused me "Keith, you deliberately misquote all the time."

So why can you only produce one example, from a year and a half ago, that has been rebutted several times already and has been again?!

You also accused me of misquoting on this thread, but you have produced no examples at all!
You can't because it is not true.

I invite anyone here, both pro-Steve and anti-Steve, to investigate the things I've said about Keith's lack of truthfulness.

I invite them too.
They could start with your false accusations about this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:43 PM

Well I suppose we could always conduct a poll to see who's right. Oh wait - no - I forgot that your best friend uses secret multiple identities...not fair...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 04:32 AM

No need to poll.
If you are right you could produce examples of what you accuse me of.
But you can't.

You could not challenge what I said so you launch a lying and mendacious smear campaign against me personally.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM

"You could not challenge what I said so you launch a lying and mendacious smear campaign against me personally."

Keith - errrmmm.. so maybe now you might understand a little of how the Labour Party feels after being maliciously branded anti semites...????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 08:36 AM

errrmmm.. so maybe now you might understand a little of how the Labour Party feels after being maliciously branded anti semites.

errrmmm...no, because they never have been by anyone.
The accusations I quoted came from within the Labour Party, and merely suggested that the far left had a problem with it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 08:38 AM

...but thanks for backing me on Steve's smear campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 08:52 AM

... did I ????

.. and what exactly has Steve been consistently saying about you misquoting and distoring what people actually say.....????? 😣

Btw.. you two have fun together..
it's thursday, I'm off on a train to try to sort out my old mum's regular problems with her falling apart at the seems local NHS health clinic...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 09:03 AM

"If you are right you could produce examples of what you accuse me of."
You accuse others of making this "about me" - now you are diverting this away from the main topic and making it about you.
You opened this thread and contnued it by inferring that there was a serious problem of Antisemitism in the ranks of the Labour Party - there isn't.
What there is is a need to address accusations of Antisemitism made by identified supporters of the Israeli regime
It is dishonest of you not to address that fact - that is distorting the real picture of what is now happening.
You claim that a lot of Labour members are disturbed "Lots of Labour members and its NEC say there is a problem," yet you have ignored requests to substantiate this claim - that is distorting the real picture of what is now happening.
You have thrown your weight fully behind what appears to be a part of the $1B dollar propaganda campaign launched by Israel to make any critisism of its policies 'Antisemitic' - that is distorting the real picture of what is now happening.
To date, a few members have been found to choose their words unwisely in criticising the genocidal policy of the Israeli regime - hardly surprising when the Israeli leaders themselves are in the forefront of identifying their extremist policies with The Jewish People as a whole, even though some of the greatest critics of that policy are Jewish - now disgustingly described as "self--hating Jews - these include Holocaust survivors and their families, ex heads of Mossad, an Army General, part of the Israeli press, groups like Jews for Justice and Rabbis for Justice and leading Jewish intellectuals GOIINNG BACK AS FAR AS Einstein and his collegues- all "self-hating Jews".
One Israeli Minister has described any criticism of Israel as ANTISEMITIC
That is terrifying and harks back to the rise on the Nazi regime in Germany.
Yesterday it was claimed that Netanyahu took a MILLION EURO BRIBE from a financier – Israel's current logic is that it is Antisemitic to draw attention to this fact - (virtually admitted by him though he excuses it by saying he used it to win an election)
Israel has succeeded in distorting the term Anti-Semitism to protect itself from human rights and crimes against humanity charges.
In doing to it has put the lives of Jews throughout the world at risk and the fact that it has chosen the British Labour Party as a target threatens our own parliamentary democracy.
You have made yourself part of that campaign and that is unforgivable.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM

Pfr,
... did I ????

Yes. You acknowledged that I was a victim of a smear campaign, saying it should make me empathise with other such victims (though I disputed the example you gave).

If you do not accept that I am such a victim, you must believe that I am guilty of misquoting on this.
Steve has failed to produce any examples, so perhaps you can.

But, good luck with your mum and her problems.

Jim,
You opened this thread and contnued it by inferring that there was a serious problem of Antisemitism in the ranks of the Labour Party - there isn't.

I quoted prominent Labour people who said that there is.

What there is is a need to address accusations of Antisemitism made by identified supporters of the Israeli regime

Sadiq Khan?
The Labour Party National Executive Committee?

You claim that a lot of Labour members are disturbed "Lots of Labour members and its NEC say there is a problem," yet you have ignored requests to substantiate this claim

I substantiated it with actual quotes!!
Which would you like me to repeat?

Re. the rest of your post, this is not about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM

"I quoted prominent Labour people who said that there is."
You didn't and still haven't - once again, this is all your own work
You have produced a couple who have been identified directly with Isreali propaganda organisations.
Nobody who can be trusted not to have an agenda has claimed there to be a serious problem - if they have, you have failed to identify them.
Any time such and accusation is made it is necessary to investigate it and any fair minded individual would not pass judgement until an unbiased conclusion was arrived at.
Such enquiries that have been made so far have exonorated the Labour Party - no evidence has been produced to show theer to be a problem, serious or otherwise
You totally invented the "a lot of Labour members are disturbed" - no such claim has ever been made.
As I said, the "leading figures" have all been traced back to the Israeli Propagands industry.
Once again, you are making things up - that seems to be what you
SADIQ KHAN has himself been linked to antisemitism through his (claimed ) association with Islamists, so, coupled with the mayoral competition, it is little wonder that he should bend over backwards to appease the Israeli supporters.
"I substantiated it with actual quotes!!"
No you havent unless you regard a coupe of unidentified names as
"a lot of Labour members.
Ther is no evidence whatever that there is a problem with Antisemitism in the Labour Pary - none, and nor can there be until the matter is investigated fully and fairly - which totally lets you our of being selected for any such jury.
The Conservative Party is the traditional home of British Antisemitism - not the Labour Party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 01:30 PM

Keith
Been through all your links
Many are based on definition of Antisemitism, around a quarter of them are repeated
Nowhere is there any indication of the "many labour party members" you claim, so you made that up.
No-one claims there is a major problem, so you made that up,
Some complain of how it is being dealt with, though do not suggest it is widespread.
Not doing too well so far
The only two who have made direct accusations are Jonathan Sacerdoti, the BBC's self-admitted Pro Israeli mole and Jim Brown – extreme right winger and member of Pro-Israeli propaganda organisations.
Apart from that, nothing to indicate there is a problem, all your own work – smoke and mirrors.
When you claimed you had linked to there being a problem – you lied (again)
"It's getting to be a habit with you " as the old song says.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 02:41 PM

No-one claims there is a major problem, so you made that up,

They said it was a "serious issue."
I did not say "major problem" so you made that up.

You didn't and still haven't - once again, this is all your own work
You have produced a couple who have been identified directly with Isreali propaganda organisations.

Sadiq Khan and the entire NEC!

I dispute "Israeli propaganda organisations" anyway.
Being pro-Israel, as most people are, does not mean your views on antisemitism can be dismissed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 06:19 PM

You're a very sad case, Keith. Read what Jim has said. He has comprehensively demolished you. As for me allegedly failing to provide examples, I've done it in this thread until I'm blue in the face. You are the only person here who refuses to see it. People ask me why I bother. Well I'll tell you. You wreck every debate here that you join in with. I'd rather like you to stop doing it, preferably by butting out, so that decent people can discuss difficult issues without the automatic insertion of your bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 06:26 PM

Keith - it's clicked now..

you remind me of when i did voluntary work in my last year of A levels nearly 40 years ago..

A middle aged bloke in a suit who'd lost his business and family..

He sat in the waiting room of our community project office with a brief case clutched tight in his arms....

Anyone who made the mistake of sitting next to him, endured his life story and misfortunes, as he unravelled the contents of his brief case....

We in the office soon enough wised up to this and tried our best to be sympathetic, whilst avoiding his brief case being opened.....

Point of recognition is, he had failed to cope with reality and blamed unknown and unseen forces in the government and space and time
for all his personal problems relating to the rest of us....

weird mad old world.... innit... 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 02:59 AM

As for me allegedly failing to provide examples (of my misquoting), I've done it in this thread until I'm blue in the face.

No you have not.
If you are not lying, produce an example now.

Pfr, please discuss the issues instead of getting all personal and nasty.

My case is that Labour people have accused other Labour people of antisemitism, backed it with quotes, and have not misquoted anyone.

I am offline now for a few days.