Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Effsee
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 11:41 PM

Hey, hey! I get the 100 too!

Sorry Leadfingers!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Carol Denney, the author
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:43 AM

There's not a lot of point in explaining the overwhelming irony in calling a song with the title "Smokers Are Scum" a gentle song to the ironically impaired. But the constant comparisons to race-based discrimination and discrimination against sexual orientation is wildly off the mark, instructively so. Smokers are, again, not a protected class of people under the law. They have tried mightily to achieve this protected status (it's a great story) but can't, of course, because (of course) they can quit. You can't quit being black, etc.

But it is certainly true that vilifying smokers is pointless. The song flirts with that, but specifies repeatedly that it is about smokers who claim the "sheer inconvenience of walking away" is too much for them, and if you haven't met those smokers, stroll down Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley. The song is about gratuitous, deliberate exposure, and if you won't take the word of the songwriter I'm wondering whose word you'd take.

A statistical majority of smokers want to quit and, as I've said before, that same statistical majority (in the US) overwhelming support smoking restrictions in restaurants, etc., for public health reasons. Restrictions against deadly tobacco smoke doesn't discriminate against smokers, since they can simply smoke somewhere else where they don't affect others. But it is far from dangerous to discriminate against them in housing, employment, seating in restaurants, etc. On the contrary, it is dangerous not to discriminate against them, because you jeopardize others' health so radically that you jeopardize your business legally, and nonsmokers so obviously have to keep breathing. On July 17th, 2009, the Housing and Urban Development Department (US) issued a memorandum advising that all public housing should be smokefree because of the serious jeopardy to children from second and thirdhand smoke exposure. That doesn't mean smokers wouldn't have access to housing. It only means they can't smoke there, or that eventually they won't be able to, because of the impact on their neighbors.

I appreciate that it's hard to quit, but smokers know they can. Hell, it's hard to remember to bring canvas shopping bags to the market, but I think I'm finally there. I just keep about thirty of them in my bike baskets and in my car so they practically strangle me on the way there.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:43 AM

Hey, I gotta say that Carol is a very good singer and writes some wonderful songs. I just think this one doesn't quite hit the mark. I think humor works better if it's gentler and not so angry.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:52 AM

Despite the author telling us so - the song isn't funny, it's just a bitchy diatribe. Which is fair enough. But I do get tired of people making out bitching is 'satire', just because the person doing the bitching tells us it is. I like satire, satire is funny. This isn't funny and it ain't satire. It's just straightforward ordinary bitching at people doing something that pisses you off. And of course there are lots of other people that hate smokers and smoking too, so I'm sure it will find sympathy and support lots of places.

I'm a life-long non-smoker by the way and I don't enjoy cigarette smoke more than any other non-smoker - but virulent anti-smoking fascists piss me off to high heaven. I wish they'd all die, or at least just shut up and stop bloody whining. Call that satire if it sounds 'funnier' that way.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,non-active member
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:48 AM

Carol, please accept that many people, smokers and smokers alike, simply do not find your song funny and your continual attempts to browbeat them into this by accusations of being 'ironically impaired' etc frankly, insulting

Satire is very difficult to achieve but I would suggest before you try to attempt it again you should listen to Tom Lehrer who really was funny and not, as Crow Sister points out, merely indulging in "ordinary bitching at people doing something that pisses you off"

You are correct of course in pointing out that discrimination against smokers is not comparable to discrimination against people of other races however, just to play with the point that McGrath is making......

Some years ago there was a sitcom on UK TV 'Til Death us do Part (badly translated to America I believe) which took a sustained interest in race themes.

The main "star" of the show in the person of the patriarch "Alf," made black people the target of his rantings and it is for the extreme views expressed by Alf on issues of race that the programme is most remembered (and denounced).

Although Alf's creator argued at the time of the original broadcasts (and since) that his intention was to expose racist bigotry through the exaggerated utterances of Alf, the intention back-fired; the effects were by no means always what the author intended as some viewers identified heavily with the xenophobic ravings of Alf - as indeed some of the "anti-smoking fascists" identified by Crow Sister will no doubt fall off their stools with laughter at your jaunty little ditty.

In this case, John Speight, the author certainly DID not share any of the racist views rxpressed by Alf whereas you have made it very plain that you did indeed regard (some) smokers 'fit my definition of scum'

You may also have noticed even from some threads on mudcat (although fortunately some of the worst have been deleted) that there remains (despite being legal, like smoking) people with strong negative feelings about the practice of homosexuality who would no doubt find 'gentle' songs wishing them all a painful death from AIDs related diseases also very funny - it doesn't meant that they are 'satirical' however much the author may think they are being.


Michael Siegel the doctor who was active in the campaign to ban smoking in the workplace and other enclosed spaces but opposes for many valid reasons the extension of this ban into the open air has stated……..

"the purpose of smoking bans is to protect people from secondhand smoke, not to express intolerance for a large segment of the population."


Now please get some perspective on this, many people who are not the humourless, incapable of understanding 'satire' or militant irony lesser mortals you accuse them of being, simply do not find a song you have written funny.
They are NOT 'trashing' YOU!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Morris-ey
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:33 AM

Pity the poor smoker, never realised what a sensitive flower it is.

Some of by best friends are scum - no, really, they are.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:15 AM

Can anybody remember the name of the American journalist (also known in The UK) who said, many years ago; "I don't smoke but I always sit in the smoking section of a plane because you meet much nicer people."

That said, smoking is dumb. Steamin' WIllie's Dad died of lung cancer and I have been keen to get the act seen as anti social ever since.

Tell you what, this NuLabour government may go down as incompetent war mongers, but in banning smoking in public places, they will go down as THE public health government of all time.

If only smoking in any room, including your own home, where children are present, was made illegal, we might start getting somewhere. (Not that it would stop inconsiderate low lifes, as they shouldn't be doing it anyway, but I like the idea of criminalising them so we can all point and tut...)

In most matters, Steamin' WIllie is "live and let live." However, perhaps James Bond got it right? "Live and let die"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 08:14 AM

I think we just have to accept that, once again, the two nations are divided by a common language. The meanings of satire and irony in the two countries seem to far enough apart to keep this argument going for weeks!

To take non-active member's point, Archie Bunker was a pale imitation of Alf Garnett and, While Archie's racial utterances had me cringing, Alf's had me rolling on the floor! English comedy is not always the clever ironic, just watch Benny Hill or the Carry on films to see that, it can quite often have, to me, the edge on it's American counterparts. Out of the States we have some very clever stuff, Friends and Scrubs to name but two of my favourites, I have yet to see anything from the US with the comedic pathos of the last episode of One Foot in the Grave. Fawlty Towers to take another example never survived the US remakes but remains a classic here and worldwide.

I mentioned before Eric Bogle's 'I hate Wogs'. Lets have a look at a sample -

I was queueing down at the Registry, a-pickin' up me dole
In front of me was a Yugoslav, in front of him a Pole
Behind me was a Eyetalian, behind him was a Turk
Those lazy migrant bastards do, they never bloody work!
But in spite of what the papers say, there's work for those who want to
The wife and twenty-seven kids is all the work I'm going to!

'Cause I hate Wogs, they live like dogs
Some eat bananas and some eat frogs
Soome wear turbans some wear clogs
All the bloody same to me 'cause I hate Wogs.

Then let's see Carol's work -

smokers are stupid
and ugly and dumb
smokers expose you
cause they think it's fun
they won't smoke elsewhere
because it's too tough
smoking will kill them
but not fast enough

it gets in your clothing
it gets in your hair
cause asthma cause cancer
but smokers don't care
the deep inconvenience
of walking away
it too hard for smokers and
that's why I say

The former still has me giggling but the latter leaves me cold. Probably my fault but maybe we can 'compare and contrast' as it used to say on our English comprehension exams:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 08:26 AM

Just re-reading to get the above quote and I noticed this from MtheGM - Comparisons are odious — & idiotic — my dears. The fact that cars kill lots of people is no kind of argument in favour of smoking, and only a booby would imagine it was.

No-one is trying to say that cars etc. are an excuse for smoking, my dear :-P. The point you seem to be missing is that until the overall pollution of the planet is addressed it is futile to imagine that a ban on outdoor smoking will be of any benefit whatsoever.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:33 AM

I was responding, David, not to your post about pollution, but to Jack's succeeding one about auto-accidents: he cited the works Crash & Autogeddon, both of which are concerned with that aspect of motoring danger. Of course outdoor smoking in designated areas will not contribute significantly to circumambient pollution — tho Carol's original diatribe is directed at those who perversely refused to stick to designated areas while she performed in the open air, but inisisted on smoking, literally, in her face. I can sympathise with her irritation even tho I don't care greatly for the song itself.

luv & xxs & HNY -- M

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:38 AM

But it's the assault and infringement that was the problem. I quite agree that blowing smoke or ash over people is a horrible thing to do, and I'm glad to say the vast majority of smokers don't do it.

I'm a flute player with a long history of weak lungs, and a non- smoker. So I have to say that the air in Irish sessions has greatly improved since the banning of smoking in pubs (which is where the vast majority of UK sessions happen). But the downside is that there are a lot less of them, as pubs close at least in part because of the smoking ban, and the surviving ones sometimes tend to lose momentum, as the smoking players leave at intervals. They are as often as not the better players, too.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:41 AM

Any song that requires this level of explanation has serious problems.

Carol, at least consider that your song doesn't communicate what you want it to beyond a circle of San Franciscan denizens.

And, yes, there are a few defensive smokers here that still act like jerks but most of the comments seem to me to be raising serious questions about the song.

And my apologies to your friend who I mistook for a troll above. He might also consider apologizing to me in turn, or not, for telling me to "Fuck off!" in a totally unrelated thread.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:59 AM

Thanks for the explanation MtheGM and apologies for the misunderstanding.

I like the term 'defensive smokers', Charley. Conjours images of people defending their cigarettes in the time honoured tradition of huddling round the secrative dog-end with hands cupped to protect them from the aim of snipers:-) I think 'offensive smokers' may be nearer the mark (ref. snipers again) though!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Morris-ey
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 10:08 AM

< Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:41 AM

Any song that requires this level of explanation has serious problems.>>

No, It is those complaining who are the ones with the problem. It's a song; it's the writer's song; you don't like it; why should she care?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 10:12 AM

Any habit that requires this level of explanation has serious problems.

No, It is those complaining who are the ones with the problem. It's a habit; it's the smoker's habit; you don't like it; why should she care?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Morris-ey
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 10:22 AM

There's not many people (thankfully) that come up and sing in your face...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 10:55 AM

Never been to out club and seen sing me then, Morris-ey? :-)

D

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: michaelr
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 11:19 AM

"Third-hand smoke", Carol? What's that supposed to mean?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: olddude
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 11:39 AM

A far better approach I think is a ballad for the loss of a loved one due to smoking, One can never underestimate the power of music to change lives, as one struggling right now to stop it is something that I am trying to keep in my mind.   

There is nothing funny about generalization of people. Even if the intent is at humor it will get lost and regarded as hate peddling which I do not believe was the intent of your song ... rather than use terms as Scum maybe a ballad of those lost to the habit would hit the heart more I think ... just a humble suggestion ... In that light I will wish you success in your song writing. It is always nice to see people writing their own music.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Carol Denney, the author
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:15 PM

You guys are a stitch. I plan to post the more virulent responses on my website so that the people who are laughing their heads off can feel properly ashamed.

Third-hand smoke is the waxy, tar-laden residue that is left behind when smoke dissipates. Unlike other vapors, 95% of this goes straight into clothing, hair, furniture, even paint, and has a serious impact on children. Another UCSF study as yet unpublished - look for it in a month or two.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:51 PM

David El Gnomo, in contrasting Eric Bogle's satirical song with Carol's hysterical rant, points up the difference perfectly.
Bogle makes good use of the 'over the top' language of the bigoted for comic effect, without himself being bigoted.
Carol is trying to claim a similar validity for her song.
This doesn't work, because she clearly shares the views expressed in her song - i.e. it is not a satire at all.
The other main difference, of course, is that Bogle's song is well written and funny, whereas Carol's, in my opinion, isn't.
I'm afraid that Carol is not going to listen to any criticism of her song, however well-intentioned, so there I rest my case.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Carol Denney, the author
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:02 PM

Thanks for resting your case, Dave. The song is funny to some people, not funny to others, purely a subjective matter, but a little comic at this point because none of you have heard it. The harder you stomp your foot and insist that it isn't funny, the funny this whole thread gets.

But please don't pretend to speak for me. I've said plainly that shooting people with bug spray is assault- not recommended. And my lifelong best friend is a smoker. This song is specially crafted to be sung in a street fair to someone holding a cigarette deliberately inches from your nose who, I fear, would laugh at a plaintive ballad about premature death from secondhand exposure.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:53 PM

Well, at least you'd get a laugh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Carol Denney, the author
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:01 PM

Siegel, by the way, is a well-known tobacco industry shill. If he ever did good work I'm glad to know it, but these days he works hard to oppose smoking restrictions to protect the public's health.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:03 PM

I give up.
There is no good knocking when there's nobody there, as they say in these parts.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Carol Denney, the author
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:11 PM

It amazes me, in a kind and gentle way, of course, how many people with whom one simply disagrees accuse one of not listening.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:20 PM

Succinctly put DaveR. I'd been watching this thread since the start, and it was only the criticism of "humourless" people that finally bugged me enough to comment. Taking an aggressive swipe at smokers is one thing, hiding behind "satire" for it, is another. Then when that ploy fails, claiming that no-body but you gets your satirical wit - just goes beyond the pale.

"I'm afraid that Carol is not going to listen to any criticism of her song, however well-intentioned,"

Well, she's evidently got a big healthy sense of the quality of her art or humour or something. Wish I were so self-assured about my singing, or indeed anything I do! That is a gift.

Maybe I aught to add for a big laugh that my Mother died at 54 of lung cancer last year. Which is clearly not a moment too soon according to "satirical" Carol. And I can dig black humour! I've made black humour jokes about my own Mothers habit & death. But I'm afraid if you're going to tread on challenging ground, your work needs to be genuinely sharp and witty (I wouldn't have objected to it if it were FUNNY). But I agree fully with Dave, this piece is not clever satire, it's far from it. It's merely badly composed vitriol.

But I guess you and your fans dig it. So whatever.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:28 PM

Carol,

I have taken a look at your website, and enjoyed your songs. In particular, I was very taken with the song 'Set Your Radio Free' which is about a subject dear to my heart.
You are clearly a very talented and committed writer and performer.
Please believe me, the only bone of contention here is 'Smokers Are Scum', which I sincerely believe is flawed in that it does not appear to make any distinction between thoughtless smokers who inflict their habit and its consequences on others, and other smokers who go out of their way to avoid doing this.
So let us agree to differ on this one song.
I wish you a Happy New Year.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Carol Denney, the author
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:31 PM

Thank you for sharing. Again, I am just so deeply ashamed that people for whom it is played find it humorous. Trust me, we are all kneeling and begging forgiveness.

But what's more interesting to me is that I am the person doggedly dragging the discussion back to its real point, which is the deliberate exposure issue. And that even now, still, no one seems at all glad that this song's comedic overkill actually changed policy inside of four brief days. You can not like it, I don't care. But are you all incapable of acknowledging that it was effective? Would you really rather all hammer on a cancer survivor?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:41 PM

"Would you really rather all hammer on a cancer survivor?"

Did you get Lung Cancer? From breathing second-hand smoke?

If so, that's a real bummer. I have bad genes too, everyone genetically close to me has died young from cancer. I'm watching the clock.. Tick tock, another year another cell mutation.. ;-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:44 PM

...there's no one there...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:46 PM

I am the person doggedly dragging the discussion back to its real point, which is the deliberate exposure issue.

I'm afraid it looks like deliberate exposure in order to gain cheap publicity from where I'm sitting. Satirical irony it certainly isn't, though it would be if you performed it whilst smoking.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:55 PM

"Thank you for sharing. Again, I am just so deeply ashamed that people for whom it is played find it humorous."

Oops, I forgot to thank Carol for her satirical caring platitudes about my recently deceased Mother. You are one sharp-witted lady, even if you do say so yourself!

Don't worry about the people who find it funny being ashamed, they'll have been too drunk too remember it anyway.

Have fun posting selected 'edits' from this thread to your fansite!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Carol Denney, the author
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:11 PM

Golly, what an intemperate crew. Perhaps you should step outside and have a...hmmm, never mind. Crow Sister, I swear I didn't kill your mother. My deliberately intemperate song changed policy which would have helped protect her, and will protect everyone at the next fair.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:12 PM

Deliberately offensive exaggeration of one's true feelings does not constitute satire or irony. However, any offence I might personally have taken is far outweighed by the delicious irony of such an hilariously clueless example of the 'transatlantic misunderstanding' of irony itself.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:25 PM

Happy New Year, Crow Sister - you have this one nailed.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:27 PM

Seconded.
HNY to all.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:32 PM

Crow Sister, we haven't always agreed and won't, I'm sure, but if there's one person in this thread who should be self assured, it's you. I've heard you on MySpace or somewhere, and you have a magnificent voice.

I also find it very refreshing that you don't make a habit of telling people how outstanding your singing is, but with your talent, I don't suppose you'd have to.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:36 PM

"Crow Sister, I swear I didn't kill your mother. My deliberately intemperate song changed policy which would have helped protect her, and will protect everyone at the next fair."

Well I'm certain her ghost beyond the grave would for sure thank you for your efforts, if she but could.

Actually.. on consideration, no she wouldn't at all. She'd tell you plainly to "Feck the feck off!"
But then she was Irish like that.. ;-)

Anyway, I don't smoke myself - but please folks, feel free to light up and cough about me. Because thankfully it's still a free country (just about here in England so far) so you boys and gals who fancy a short terminal disease-ridden existence, please go and suck on that cancer stick with unfettered joyful abandon!*

Crow Sister is off to have fun now, x


* Note formal irony :)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Carol Denney, the author
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:39 PM

I'd be very interested to hear from other musicians and music patrons who have successfully changed smoking policies, especially through art.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:41 PM

Thankyou Jeri - Just caught your post there. And I'm pretty touched!

Happy New Year to you, and to All Here too.

Frankly I'm sure I'd get on with ninety-nine percent of the folks here, including Carol - if we met face to face and simply chatted in a pub.

But hey, that's the internet... *smile*

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:45 PM

So howzabout a link to your singing, CS?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Carol Denney, the author
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:02 PM

Okay, not a lot of smoking policy changers out there. How about more generally - any political activists out there who changed policy through song? I'd be interested to hear the story.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,iancarterb
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:15 PM

"I'd be very interested to hear from other musicians and music patrons who have successfully changed smoking policies, especially through art."
Wish I could have done it with a song, but I found that making the second mate do the job after smokng was banned on the Washington State ferries was more immediate and therefore more satisfactory. I have in the last day googled the legal implications of Battery vis a vis purposeful smoke blown in the face by those asked to OBSERVE THE BLEEDING POSTED AND ANNOUNCED RULES - to stop bullying another passenger or patron, that is- and was gratified to find that it is now legal precedent that such behaviour constitutes battery. The song was the only tool available to Carol and it worked, even if took four days. It is NOT different from asking people not to spit on you. If you go to where the smokers are allowed to smoke, you can leave. In the converse situation, they MUST leave and you shouldn't have to.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Carol Denney, the author
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

Hi Ian, here's to the second mate and happy new year. I'd love to know the legal precedent, if you know it - a state case? And thanks for helping the discussion tiptoe back to the policy question.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,iancarterb
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:39 PM

Carol- It was a 1994 decision in Ohio- you have to read far down the piece. http://www.law.capital.edu/tobacco/housing/residents_smokeinhome.asp
It occurred to me after my last post that a friend and I had collaborated on a parody of the post 9-11 safety spiel on the ferry, which included a warning to go to the designated area for the year before smoking was simply banned outright for the entire thirty minute crossing. We stopped singing that verse, and I can't find it written down, but it started
If you think you need a cigarette,
the ferry ssytem has some rules.
Don't smoke in your car, don't smoke in the head,
we've reserved a place for smokers.
      We never had to use it in the way you used yours.:)
   Carter

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Carol Denney, the author
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:03 PM

How cool. I wish I could hear it; there's a lot of potential in the line "we've reserved a place for smokers." Thanks for the reference regarding the Ohio 1994 case. What I love about a precedent for battery is that it lays the groundwork for self-defense. My band is going to pose with squirt guns, fire extinguishers, and of course Powder Fresh Glade Air Freshener. For those interested in the reference:

"Battery:
In civil law, battery is described as an intentional and offensive touching of another without lawful justification. If a neighbor is purposefully directing secondhand smoke into your apartment, the exposure may be considered to be battery. In a 1994 Ohio case, blowing smoke in the face of another person was found to constitute battery."

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:19 PM

"A very real victory for a saucy little bit of satire."

Well, you got that policy changed at next year's fair, so more power to you. I like the fact that you think globally and work locally also. People who go 'round smoking in public places deserve to get their butts kicked. I do not like it around anyone--except other smokers. Starting somewhere about 1970, I began leaving my place or the places of others to have a smoke. IMO, that's the way it should be. Smoking around kids is unconscionable. I see NO excuse for that.

I know you're taking flack here, Carol, but you have big shoulders. I've read many of your lyrics and listened to you on Youtube, and y'ain't afraid to stand and be counted. I like that in people. Especially singer-songwriters.

Have a great New Year. I hope it's your best ever.

You know who.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,iancarterb
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 11:28 PM

Carol, I wish I could claim that line, but my friend Jack wrote it and I almost choked the first time I heard it when he did NOT use the obvious rhyme. We might be able to include that (it's a pretty good tune)in some living-room recording in late January, and I will endeavor to pass it along.
Best -   Carter

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Smokers Are Scum, a gentle song
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 06:53 AM

Meh, looked more ranty than satyrical to me, but Im not going to get worked up about it. Ive heard far worse as a smoker. It does seem a tad indiscriminate to be honest and if this fair was out in the open i dont see why people couldnt smoke wherever they wanted. Still sounds like carrol has met some complete pricks at this event so maybe its a justified response.

I leave you with a quote from Bernard Manning, "Theres this black fella..."