BS: Faith

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 11:46 PM

Bill, there ARE scientists with profound spiritual understanding. There always have been. They are not the straw men I was referring to in the least. Science and spirituality are not mutually exclusive. They support one another.

But when I see people concocting laughable "scientific" arguments to dismiss an already laughable concept of God that they themselves thought up or assumed in the first place...then I get sarcastic. They make up an idiotic notion about God, and assume that everyone who believes in God must subscribe to that same idiotic notion. Talk about a closed circle of reasoning!

The problem is this: An initial level of prejudice which does not even consider the possibility that the "other guy" might know something you don't know   It's the same thing that has traditionally poisoned good relations between different religious groups, such as Protestants and Catholics or Christians and Muslims. It's cultivated ignorance, cloaked in an assumption of innate superiority. Given such an assumption, the "other guy" must be very, very stupid, if not downright evil. Therefore, everything that he believes in can simply be discounted as utter foolishness...or worse. Upon these grandiose prejudices are wars launched and straw gods declared to be non-existent. And of course, straw gods ARE nonexistent. But who made them up? Atheists compose a straw god the moment the concept of God crosses their mind, and then think how intelligent they are to have realized that it is a manfactured falsehood.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 11:51 PM

hmmm, Mary..not existentialism, but I see what you mean..perhaps a thing called "the eidetic reduction" by Husserl comes close..

" in phenomenology, a method by which the philosopher moves from the consciousness of individual and concrete objects to the transempirical realm of pure essences and thus achieves an intuition of the eidos (Greek: shape) of a thingi.e., of what it is..."...but it is really too abstract to apply here...(I gotta refresh...I haven't done this 'formally' for quite awhile)

in your usage, the "aha" experience is as good as anything. Suddenly, you see what your study and research and experiments and RE-experiments and RE-thinking are supposed to show you, and why it is all necessary. And maybe, if you are lucky, you will manage to figure out how to explain it clearly to those who want to dismiss it as "just another opinion".

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 11:56 PM

(I'm not really here...)

Phenomenology seems to ring a bell. I remember an example from a philosophy class where the instructor gave examples of a man "knowing" a mountain.

1) He camped there as a child.

2) He took his bride there.

3) He carried his brother down the mountain in a casket.

etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 05:47 AM

Back to the beginning:
So, I don't have any faith, but I have a lot of hope (Ann Druyan)

quote from: Ann Druyan talks about science, religion, wonder, awe....and Carl Sagan

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 01:54 PM

absolutely wonderful article, Wolfgang! I have read at it quickly, and will print it for more detailed reading later...thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 12:01 PM

Superb article, Wolfgang, and I believe I agree with all its main points. Science is one of the most spiritual of all pursuits, given the fact that it is a disciplined, purposeful search for truth and understanding.

I'll have to take some time and read it thoroughly. Thanks for the link.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: kendall
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 01:35 PM

The thought just crossed my mind, "No amount of belief can create a fact" and suddenly, there was a huge clap of thunder! no kidding!

Anyway, I'm always amazed and pleased to see such intelliget posts on the forum. However, Doug, old buddy, I know many left wing types, but I don't know one who has ever said that taking out Hussein was a bad thing. Our problem with the "war" is our leader lying about the reason. He planned this from the very beginning, and I'm hoping that 60 Minutes tonight will tell the whole truth about it.

Freda, I once had an out of body experience. While meditating, I found myself out in the cosmos, free and able to go anywhere in the universe. Suddenly, I thought, "This is not possible" and just as suddenly, I was back in my body.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM

Interesting post, Kendall. Much food for thought there.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:57 PM

Kendall:

Sounds like a moment of belief about what was possible created a fact, all right. Mebbe what would be mor accurate is "No amount of counter-belief can change a fact you already believe". Trying to use metaphysics to counter the facts of the physical universe doesn't work because those facts are already fully subscribed to, or we wouldn't be resisting them so hard!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 09:43 PM

Amos... I have read Whitehead, Husserl, Hegel, Sartré and Kierkegaard, and I confess- your last sentence, with no extra context, is as puzzling as any I have read. (not disagreeing with it, just don't get it..)

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 09:28 AM

This thread has been sleeping a little.

But I want to talk about faith, not faith in God or a benevolent universe, but faith in the essential goodness and bravery of human nature.

I am thinking about people, who, under tremendous pressure from powers that be, choose to do the right thing and reveal government corruption, whistleblowers.

To me, these people, who give up everything, including their means of support and status, to publicly dump on a corrupt government, deserve the respect and support of ordinary people who benefit from their actions.

Here is a web address to an article on the subject (can anyone make a blue clicky of it?)While this is an academic article, it addresses a very important subject.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/22/1082616257471.html

As well, I think of good friends and neighbours who, in the small friendships of daily interactions, by their essential ethics and decency, continually revive my faith in human nature, my faith in people.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 12:59 PM

I would politely suggest a new thread with a different title....such as "A different take on Faith" or something similar. This thread has a pretty 'heavy' lead in, and could be a burden to what you want to discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 01:08 PM

See this New Thread for Freda's discussion.

Regards,

A