BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 14 - 09:28 AM

"Palestinian propagandists are doing everything they can to manufacture an icon of outrage that shows the world just how terrible the Palestinians are suffering and how evil the Israelis are.

For the most part, their efforts have come up short.

Instead of showing the world just how bad things are for people living in the West Bank, they are revealing the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of Palestinian elites. They are also highlighting the antisemitic craziness that has gripped Palestinian society."

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"The notion that the Palestinians are the hobbits of the Middle East whose suffering represents a great insuperable wound on humanity's conscience is simply no longer tenable.

Another factor is that a growing number of people are starting to realize that Palestinian suffering is largely self-inflicted."

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"But nowhere is this harvest of hate more evident than in Palestinian society itself. In lying to the world about the cause of their suffering, Palestinian elites are lying to themselves and the people they lead.

The anti-Israel and anti-Jewish messaging that Palestinian elites have promoted to Westerners for the past few decades reveals that the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are a long way off from establishing and maintaining a democracy, making peace with Israel and coming to grips with the modern world.

They live in a demon-haunted world of their own making. The end result will be disaster for the Palestinians and possibly for the rest of the world."

Palestinian Propagandists are Losing Their Touch

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 14 - 09:50 AM

Ah yes. Dexter Van Zile, Christian Media Analyst (whatever that is supposed to be) for CAMERA.

The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, or CAMERA, is an American non-profit known for its pro-Israel media monitoring and advocacy.

In 2008 CAMERA launched a campaign to alter Wikipedia articles to support the Israeli side of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The campaign suggested that pro-Israeli editors should pretend to be interested in other topics until elected as administrators. Once administrators they were to misuse their administrative powers to suppress pro-Palestinian editors and support pro-Israel editors.

"We've long considered him anti-Israel", CAMERA's founder Andrea Levin has commented of Peter Jennings.

CAMERA's report, "A Record of Bias: National Public Radio's Coverage of the Arab-Israeli Conflict: September 26 – November 26, 2000" (2001) asserted that National Public Radio's "coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict has long been marred by a striking anti-Israel tilt, with severe bias, error and lack of balance commonplace."

In her film review of Munich (2005), posted on the official website of CAMERA, Andrea Levin states that the film (a collaboration of director Steven Spielberg and playwright–screenwriter Tony Kushner) promotes "its thesis of Israeli culpability" and that "Israel's action battling its adversaries is cast as aberrant, bloody and counterproductive."

CAMERA published a critique of Christiane Amanpour's CNN documentary series God's Warriors, calling it "one of the most grossly distorted programs to appear on mainstream American television", "false in its basic premise", and "a perfect illustration of classical propaganda techniques. Amanpour has responded that the documentary is not meant to compare religions, but rather to show "that each faith has their committed and fervent believers, and we're showing how each of those are active in the political sphere in today's world.

In October 2007, CAMERA organized a conference entitled "Israel's Jewish Defamers," in which a panel of discussants accused selected Jewish critics of Israel, as well as one of Israel's leading newspapers, Haaretz, of distortions and falsehoods about Israel. CAMERA director Andrea Levin described the Jewish critics — who included Princeton University's Richard Falk, writer Norman Finkelstein, New York Review of Books contributor Henry Siegman, former New York Times columnist Anthony Lewis, Trent University professor Michael Neumann, and Tikkun magazine publisher Michael Lerner — of being guilty of "demonstrably false and baseless defaming of Israel, wildly distorted out of context accusations against Israel."

    In a 2003 profile of the organization in the Boston Globe, Mark Jurkowitz observed:    "To its supporters, CAMERA is figuratively - and perhaps literally - doing God's work, battling insidious anti-Israeli bias in the media. But its detractors see CAMERA as a myopic and vindictive special interest group trying to muscle its views into media coverage. ... To many in the media CAMERA is ... an advocacy group trying to impose its pro-Israeli views on mainstream journalism."


And etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 11:39 AM

An interview with 16 year old Mohammad Zoabi who describes himself as an Israeli, Zionist, Arab, Muslim.

Zoabi explained that it is not easy to be a Muslim Zionist. He said that "the bad sides" of Arab culture have taken control of the society, that he has been attacked several times for his views, and that some people call him a traitor, or even "a Jew." He added with a smile that he cannot understand how people could see the word "Jew" as an insult, when the Jews only recently emerged from a situation in which they were being ruthlessly slaughtered, to one in which they are "one of the smartest and strongest nations in the world."

Cue the name calling.

Mohammad Zoabi: YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 07:38 AM

Kewith
You have persistently claimed that Israel's behaviour meets with the approval of the demacratic states, yet you have failed to produce one single item of that "approval".

I have produced several.
There would not be warm, friendly relations if they did not approve.

Now you please produce evidence that any democratic and libertarian state calls Israel criminal or apartheid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 08:28 AM

"I have produced several."
You have produced none
You have claimed support for Israeli's role in the Sabra/Shatila massace - none whatever.
The blockade, the incursions, the use of chemical weapons, the Nazi-like humiliation of Palestinians, expansionism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing of Bedouins - please link us to examples of support of any of these.
Britain's greatest trading partner is China- does that imply support for her human rights record?
"Today, however, China and Britain enjoy a friendly, cooperative, and close relationship. China and Britain have established a full strategic partnership and close cooperation"
The US has vetoed over a 100 UN resolutions condemning Israel's behaviour - it has made it clear it will no longer do so
AN 'ANTI-SEMITIC' JEW'S VIEW OF ISRAEL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 09:15 AM

You have produced none
You have claimed support for Israeli's role in the Sabra/Shatila massace - none whatever.

Of course I have.
If any of those countries believed Israel responsible they would not have warm and friendly relations with such a criminal state.

It really is all propaganda Jim.
Only gullible fools believe it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 09:30 AM

Those evil Jews give medical treatment to the relatives of those sworn to their destruction:

JERUSALEM — Israel said Tuesday it allowed the mother-in-law of Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh into the country for medical treatment.

Maj. Guy Inbar, an Israeli spokesman, said the 68-year-old woman was allowed to enter from the Gaza Strip on Monday to receive cancer treatment at a Jerusalem hospital.

A relative in Gaza confirmed she was in Israel, with Israel Radio reporting she was being treated at the Augusta Victoria Hospital in East Jerusalem, by the Mount of Olives.

The announcement followed Haniyeh's resignation as prime minister Monday, and the formation of a new Palestinian unity government. Hamas has ruled Gaza the past seven years.

While Israel considers Hamas a terrorist group, Gaza residents — even those with ties to Hamas — are authorized to cross the border on a humanitarian basis.

Last November, Haniyeh's granddaughter received treatment in Israel for an infection in her digestive tract. She later died in Gaza

Read more: Haniyeh's mother-in-law treated in Israel | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/haniyehs-mother-in-law-treated-in-israel/#ixzz33g1eTa7Q
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 11:13 AM

"if any of those countries believed Israel responsible they would not have warm and friendly relations with such a criminal state.
""Today, however, China and Britain enjoy a friendly, cooperative, and close relationship"
ARMS TO EXTREMISTS

SAUDI ARABIA

Bahrain

CHINA

TURKEY

SYRIA


"Only gullible fools believe it all."
ISRAELI WAY OF DEALING WITH CRITICISM

If you wish to continue this discussion on this thread, feel free.
I will not be dictated to by a couple of extremist morons as to where I make my postings where I wish - if necessary, on both friends
"Double the pleasure, double the fun" as the old ad used to go.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 11:22 AM

EU do not trade with Syria, and none of the others have done anything comparable to massacring refugees or using chemical weapons on civilians.

Neither has Israel.
It would be a pariah state among democracies.
It is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 12:16 PM

J Carroll: "I will not be dictated to by a couple of extremist morons as to where I make my postings where I wish - if necessary, on both friends (eh? - "threads"??? or what)"

.,.
No, I won't either. So here are a few interests, no more irrelevant to this thread than the enormities of Israel to the Radical Islam one that Carroll goes on obsessing about all over like King Charles' Head, that I feel like talking about; and Carroll nor no-one else can stop me; coz he said so, innit? ···

Isn't it a pity that Inspector Japp & Captain Hastings haven't been in the recent episodes of 'Poirot'? Though David Suchet is always worth seeing, isn't he? & the incomparable Zoe Wanamaker as Ariadne Oliver is always a bit of compensation isn't she?

Well done Arsenal winning the FA Cup. Let's hope they can pull it off again next year. And maybe win the double with the Championship too! Wouldn't you agree, Jim?

Emma did me a pork steak in Chicken Tonight Honey & Mustard sauce for dinner last night. It isn't only nice with chicken, you know, in spite of the name.

I have been rereading Julian Fellowes' "Snobs". Very good. Sort of "Downton Abbey" country. Well worth reading, if you haven't.

Just been watching Halep & Kuznetsova at the Roland Garros Paris Open. Bit of a dull match. Rain had delayed play, so still waiting for Andy Murray to come on ...................................

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

And when I said "Championship", of course I meant top of the Premiership. A bit of a silliness, the way they call Div II the "Championship" these days, isn't it? ~ leads to misunderstandings & ambiguities like that...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 12:29 PM

Nice to see your friend sticking up for the extremist states Mike - you've brought him up well.
Perhaps you'd better hurry back to the other sire with your blue pencil - tye're all at it, though some of them are actually saying things youi'd want to hear, so maybe not eh?
Sorry your censorship effort didn't work
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 12:35 PM

Let's hear it for~~~~~~~

C A R R Y O N C A R R O L L !!!!!!!

"He's all right!"

"Who's all right?"

~~~~~~~JJJIIIMMM   CCCAAARRROOOLLL~~~~~~~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 12:40 PM

... and the next thread is called "Jokes in the worst possible taste"

There is a God!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 02:20 PM

"Never been a single one! massacre of Palestinians) "
Atrocity denier

Give us a short list then Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 03:18 PM

A START

PHOSPHORUS ATTACKS ON SCHOOLS

OPERATION CAST LEAD

DEIR YASSIN

All lies of course, just like Tiananmen Square (1,400 claimed dead) wasn't a massacre, otherwise Britain would never trade with any of them
Pratt!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 03:44 PM

Tiananmen Square was an internal atrocity all too common outside of democracies like Israel and Western countries.
If we refused to trade with all governments who ever brutally repressed their own people Israel would be about the only non-Western state we could trade with.

Deir Yassin occurred during the fighting between irregular forces when atrocities were committed by both sides.

There was no WP attack on schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:19 AM

"Sixty-two Jews were murdered by Arabs in the first week after the UN partition plan was passed, and by May 15, 1948, a total of 1,256 Jews had been killed, most of them civilians. These deaths were caused by Arab militias, gangs, terrorists and army units which attacked every place of Jewish inhabitation in Palestine.
       The attacks succeeded in placing Jerusalem under siege and eventually cutting off its water supply. All Jewish villages in the Negev were attacked, and Jews had to go about the country in convoys. In every major city where Jews and Arabs lived in mixed neighborhoods the Jewish areas came under attack. This was true in Haifa's Hadar Hacarmel as well as Jerusalem's Old City.
       Massacres were not uncommon. THIRTY-NINE Jews were killed by Arab rioters at Haifa's oil refinery on December 30, 1947. On January 16, 1948, 35 Jews were killed trying to reach Gush Etzion. On February 22, 44 Jews were murdered in a bombing on Jerusalem's Rehov Ben-Yehuda. And on February 29, 23 Jews were killed all across Palestine, eight of them at the Hayotzek iron foundry. Thirty-five Jews were murdered during the Mount Scopus convoy massacre on April 13. And 127 Jews were massacred at Kfar Etzion on May 15, 1948, after 30 others had died defending the Etzion Bloc."Frantzman, Seth. Ethnic Cleansing in Palestine?. Jerusalem Post. Aug 16, 2007.

Jim, you never make any reference to Jews being massacred at that time.
You must see how that looks.

You still have not produced an example of decent government accusing Israel of war crimes.
That is because none do.
Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:36 AM

"Tiananmen Square was an internal atrocity all too common outside of democracies like Israel and Western countries."
So we trade with States who commit atrocities that are "all too common" but not ones who just commit "rare" atrocities - how do you tell the difference between the two?
As I said on the thread this discussion belongs on, your defence of Israel, "if any of those countries believed Israel responsible they would not have warm and friendly relations with such a criminal state" is now blown clean out of the water.
As I said, and you have just repeated, "business is business" whether the customer commits atrocities or not - now indication whatever of the world's clearly stated condemnation of Israel's 'terrorist state' status, which is beyond dispute.
Massacres of civilians, such as Deir Yassin and Lidice, are still considered war crimes and atrocities - it is no excuse that they were happening on both sides, all it means is no better or worse than those you have been attacking on "the other side"
Israel is a war criminal and always has been.
To deny the WP attacks on schools and hospitals is about as disgusting as it gets.
HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH

PHOSPHORUS AND EXPERIMENTAL WEAPONS

HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH AGAIN

It was fully reported at the time and photographs and eye witess accounts were showing the horrific results.
You have just been given more of the same of attacks on UN schools in Gaza - I assume you are going to continue to deny the use of chemicals - it appears to be what you do best.
At least David Irving makes an effort with his Holocaust denial - yours is just denial in the face of evidence.
And please don't tell me which thread to make my postings to again - neither you nor Tinkerbell have any authority on this forum, and if either of you ever did it would be time for us all to go somewhere else - the end of free speech as we know it, so to speak.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:45 AM

"Jim, you never make any reference to Jews being massacred at that time."
I was the one who produced links to the full article for the first time several years ago - this was a reply to your lying claim that Israel has never committed massacres - it looks as it is - you are a defender of war crimes.
Decent governments do not have to accuse Israel of anything - it is a recorded fact that they are a Terrorist State, and to accuse them of anything would rock the business boat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:46 AM

States that brutally repress their own people are ubiquitous and there are just too many to single out.
All of Israel's neighbours, especially Hamas who massacred demonstrators in Gaza, for a start.

War crimes are quite a different thing.
If anyone attacked a school with WP it would be an unequivocal war crime.
The event you refer to is not regarded as such by any responsible, democratic government.
Try not to be so naive and gullible Jim.

Again you ignore the context of the fighting in 47-48 and ignore all massacres of Jews.
Why Jim?
It makes you look bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:52 AM

Decent governments do not have to accuse Israel of anything - it is a recorded fact that they are a Terrorist State, and to accuse them of anything would rock the business boat

Do not be silly Jim.
Israel is an invisibly tiny sliver of land with no natural resources.
Orange juice is not a strategic commodity.
If it was guilty of war crimes no government would need to have anything to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:50 AM

I don't want any 'authority' on this forum, thank you just the same, Jim. Why it would probably spoil all the fun I am having laughing haha at all your hysterical (& hysterically hilarious) posts.

But be a good boy, now, or you shall not go to the ☯


❤❦·☤~Tink~☤·❦❤

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 07:40 AM

It IS a war crime, in violation of the Geneva Conventions, to launch anti-personnel rockets at civilian areas as has been supported and rewarded by both the West Bank and Gaza territories.

So the Palestinian Territories are terrorist states, illegitimate, and have no right to existence according to Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 07:49 AM

BBC today Jim.
"Leaders of the G7 industrial nations meeting in Brussels say they are prepared to impose further sanctions on Russia over its actions in Ukraine."

You see Jim, democratic states are quite willing to seriously "rock the business boat" for illegal behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 08:46 AM

"Israel is an invisibly tiny sliver of land with no natural resources."
Israel is a wealthy state with world wide political and financial support, including, up to now, that of the United States.
It is a nuclear power, so its terrorist behaviour is a world-wide threat not just a Middle Eastern one.
China is guilty of atrocities against its own people - it is a friend and business party of 'the democratic world' including, and especially Britain.
America had been guilty of War and crimes - everybody trades with America.
Britain traded with Syria, despite over a decade of human rights abuses
After the Arab Spring protests began Britain continued to trade with Syrian even to the extent of weapons and riot control equipment and later, chemicals that could be used in weapon manufacture.
Briatn was selling arms to Gadaffi and supplying arms to the rebels
Weeks after the outbreak of Arab Spring, David Cameron hosted a massive arms fair aimed at several extremist states, including Bahrain.
Business is business - your alibi for Israel is blown.
"....have no right to existence according to Jim."
Whistling in the wind I realise, but can you point out where I have EVER AT ANY TIME OR IN ANY FORM suggested that any state has the right to exist
Your entire case has been based on lies, as most examples of fanaticism are - this is typical of those lies.
I will continue to post my views on the other site and will not be censored by either of you blue-pencil pratts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM

Every Arab country, and most other undemocratic states, are "guilty of atrocities against its own people."

We can not ostracise them all.
War crimes are different.

No-one needs to trade with tiny Israel.
They choose to have warm relations because they are a good people.
Unlike you, well informed people and governments and know that all the propaganda is just that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 11:20 AM

Sadly, this is what happens when the only voice of reason is reduced to each of his words being analysed by wicked people who have no idea, no concept and nothing to say about The Middle East.

Jim is a man who I have disagreed with on many subjects and I am on record as saying he could start an argument in an empty room. However..

just because he is a lone voice on this pointless thread doesn't make the general thrust of his comments wrong. The hyenas circling him, looking at each other smugly because they think their distortions have put him down are rather sickening to enlightened minds.

Everybody is going to sort out the Middle East eh? Why now? Nobody managed it over the last 2,000 years although if there was ever a chance, we fucked it up when we invented both Israel and Palestine and kept quiet when both sides claimed divine right rather than government civil servants who drew the boundaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 02:54 PM

Are you saying we should never discuss long standing issues then Musket.
What a strange idea!

And, are you saying it is wrong to argue against a "lone voice" because, when I have been in that position, you relish being among the "circling hyenas."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:12 AM

Not at all. It's just a bit pointless when nothing of value or relevance is debated. Throwing in quotes from partisan commentators doesn't enrich it either.

When you are a lone voice there's often a reason for it. Irrational bollocks mostly.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:58 AM

"We can not ostracise them all."
This is not about ostracising Israel - your claim has been that Israel had had the "SUPPORT" of democratic countries, yet the only evidence you have produced for that stupid claim is that they haven't been ostracised.
The west trades with whoever it suits them to do so - that trade in no indication of SUPPORT for any of their policies - Israel included.
You have no case, and your desperate insistence of that claim, without any other example of support, blasts your stupid case out of the water.
No single western nation has spoken out in support of Israel's actions at Shatila/Sabra, in support of the atrocities committed during the incursions, the use of chemicals and heavy artillery on civilians, the attempts to starve the Palestinians into submission by a vicious blockade, the Berlin-like wall, the Nazi-like humiliation, the treatment of the Bedouins, the setting up of an apartheid state, ongoing expansionism..... all have been universally condemned by War Crimes and Human rights observers and the world press.
Up to now, the only practical support for Israel has been through the US using its veto on over 100 occasions to protect Israel from the world condemnation it has received, now it is unlikely to be used again the Yanks have joined Israel's critics in condemning Israel's behaviour, particularly following their having sabotaged yet another round of peace talks.
Israel has no support for its terrorism - in the past, the only support it ever has had is one of silence - now that has gone - you have has the list of examples of the support Israel now has - none.
Your argument was a non-starter anyway - the logic of it is that if Britain and the West has warm and friendly relations with countries like China and Saudi Arabia, that is an indication of support for those policies - utter crap.
You want to show that the democratic countries support Israel - give examples of that support - not their silence.
By the way - I use the word "democratic" extremely loosely.
I watched a TV documentary on Wednesday night dealing with new evidence that has come to light from British documents, showing the use of torture in Northern Ireland in the 1970s.
It seems that techniques first developed by the army in Kenya were refined and used widely in the North then, having been admitted to, were later used in Iraq, highlighted in the Abu Graib revelations, and have been put to use again in Afghanistan and Guantanamo - now there's a "democratic" British export to be proud of - torture!!
I take it we'll here no more of Brucie's lying accusations of my opposing the State of Israel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:16 AM

that trade in no indication of SUPPORT for any of their policies

Yes it is.
We have sanctions against Russia and Syria for their criminal activity.

No-one needs little Israel's trade but all democracies welcome it because there is no reason not to.
They are not war criminals or aggressors.
Governments work on facts not the propaganda and lies that gullible dupes like you lap up.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:22 AM

Somebody above (or perhaps it was on the simultaneous Islamic Radical thread) ,whom I have indicated my intention of refusing to converse with directly as a result, became hysterically abusive of me for having denounced Jim as 'antisemitic'. I have long conversed with Jim on various topics; and among other things I persuaded him some years ago to agree to desist from using the word "Nazi" in relation to Israel; pointing out that such a procedure had been explicitly named as an example of antisemitism by the declaration of the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency), who published a working definition of antisemitism, in 2005. He promised as a result that he would never again indulge in such a usage.

But in contravention of this promise, he continues to do so -- see his last post. I accordingly call this in evidence of my justification in continuing to make this specific accusation against him, so long as he persists in doing this in defiance of an official declaration by a recognised authority specifically appointed for the purpose of such definition by the European Union.

Please note, all whom it may concern, that I will desist from calling Jim "antisemitic" just as soon as he again forswears this habit of his of denouncing Israel as a "Nazi" entity; and then sticks to such a resolution, as he has failed to do on several recent occasions.

Until then, I say again, with the authority of the Fundamental Rights Agency behind me: he is, I much regret to say, an antisemite; and it is no use trying to denounce me for drawing attention to this incontrovertible fact.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:40 AM

Here is an extract from the declaration I refer to. It can be checked on Wikipedia.

'Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:.....

       Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.'

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:30 AM

And I would add these to M's example:

* Applying double standards by requiring of it behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

* Singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium - let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction - is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:36 AM

No single western nation has spoken out in support of Israel's actions at Shatila/Sabra, in support of the atrocities committed during the incursions, the use of chemicals and heavy artillery on civilians, the attempts to starve the Palestinians into submission by a vicious blockade, the Berlin-like wall, the Nazi-like humiliation, the treatment of the Bedouins, the setting up of an apartheid state, ongoing expansionism..... all have been universally condemned by War Crimes and Human rights observers and the world press.

No single Western nation has condemned them for it, as they would if it were true.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:44 AM

Ah, I see Carroll's Dr.Strangelove's Arm Syndrome is acting up today.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:15 AM

Reflections on visiting Israel by a British Afghani Muslim

"Come here and make your mind up don't just repeat what you've been told."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiGYcxhrVQY#t=253

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:52 AM

The UN had condemned all those actions to one degree or another,
trhe western press has, All human rights groups have, independent enquirers have
Had any government believed this overwhelming critiscism to be unjust and wrong they would have leapt to the support of Israel - not one government has.
You claimed support for Israel from all democratic governments- you have not provided evidence of that support because it doesn't exist - if it does, give examples of it, I have no doubt you have searched for it, as have I.
" It can be checked on Wikipedia."
Wikipedia is made up of opinions, not researched facts - nothing they put up can be regarded as a definition unless it is backed up by researched facts.
It is my opinion, and that of many others, that Israel's behaviour is in many instances reminiscent of that of the Nazis, in particular their dehumanisation of the Palestinian people (as deplored by you) and their facilitating the Sabra/Shatila massacre (as deplored by just about everybody).
I consider it deeply Antisemitic to attribute such actions to 'The Jews'- do you think they were Jewish actions or those of the regime you have criticised (sort of) yourself?
In order for me, or anybody, to be an Anti-Semite, I would have to take your stance and blame the Jews, as you are doing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 07:02 AM

"for having denounced Jim as 'antisemitic'"
My response from the other thread
One of the most distressing features of what is happening in Israel today, is that Israel's supporters use the dead of the holocaust to defend atrocities - they would be turning intheir grave if they had been given the dignity of funerals
Jim Carroll

" It can be checked on Wikipedia."
Wikipedia is made up of opinions, not researched facts - nothing they put up can be regarded as a definition unless it is backed up by researched facts.
It is my opinion, and that of many others, that Israel's behaviour is in many instances reminiscent of that of the Nazis, in particular their dehumanisation of the Palestinian people (as deplored by you) and their facilitating the Sabra/Shatila massacre (as deplored by just about everybody).
I consider it deeply Antisemitic to attribute such actions to 'The Jews'- do you think they were Jewish actions or those of the regime you have criticised (sort of) yourself?
In order for me, or anybody, to be an Anti-Semite, I would have to take your stance and blame the Jews, as you are doing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 07:16 AM

Ok.

Michael. It is not, never has been nor ever shall be anti Semitic to question, ridicule or accuse the state of Israel. Israel is a nation, and includes many Christians, Muslims and a fair number of normal people too for that matter. Confusing it with the plight of European Jewry to suppress criticism is about as low as you can get.

Keith.

What was that about governments working by facts?

Ha Ha Ha. Ooh dear, a little bit of wee wee has popped out. (I'm dreaming of the obstacles in my way once I am too old to be taken seriously.)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 07:36 AM

Jim: The wikipedia entry I ref'd to reproduced precisely, and as I quoted it, the 2005 declaration of the [then] European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia. The wqell-known fact that Wikipedia can be edited & is not always an impeccable source does not apply in this instance, as you are attempting to suggest. I don't think you want to be thought of as antisemitic. I take it very much that it is not something you would wish to be regarded as. BUT so long as you go on using the word "Nazi" in relation to Israeli policies, then that are precisely what you are showing yourself as being, within the terms, which are exactly as I quoted them, of that declaration commissioned by the EU from an organisation it had created for the precise purpose of establishing such definitionas and parameters.

So ~~ either stop using the word "Nazi" in your posts denouncing Israel, or accept that you are being antisemitic within an officially commissioned definition of that condition by the EU.

You can't wriggle out of this obligation if you want this outcome.

Sorry
.,,.

"It is not, never has been nor ever shall be anti Semitic to question, ridicule or accuse the state of Israel".

It is, as I have demonstrated, within the terms of an official EU commissioned report, if the word "Nazi" is used. I have not asserted it to be so in any other circumstances.


~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 08:05 AM

I have responded to your statement on the other thread
SOME JEWISH "ANTI-SEMITES"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 09:20 AM

The UN had condemned all those actions to one degree or another,

Only the General Council which is dominated by dictatorships and oppressive regimes not fit to lick Israel's boots.

You claimed support for Israel from all democratic governments- you have not provided evidence of that support because it doesn't exist

Yes I have.
I have shown that they have warm and friendly relations with Israel which they would not have with an apartheid or criminal regime.

Had any government believed this overwhelming critiscism to be unjust and wrong they would have leapt to the support of Israel

No they would not.
It would just give all that shit credence it does not deserve.
They just ignore it and offer the hand of friendship, while castigating actual criminal regimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 09:23 AM

If the EU commissioned report is available, I wish to compare it to Andrex. Sometimes, only the best will do when you wish to wipe your arse.

The same EU by the way, completely and utterly denounces the stances similar to yours regarding being circumspect of a Muslim neighbour, GP whatever on the basis that he may or may not have a nephew involved in terrorism.

You seem to be as pick n mix with your morality as Keith and Joe Offer seem to be with their faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:04 AM

"Yes I have."
No you have not - you have claimed support - you have none
You have been given examples of the regimes have "warm and friendly regimes" - after a feeble excuse for the Tienanmen Square massacre, you are now ignoring it, as you are the "warm and friendly relations" with other extremist cases.
Even if your "politicians support Israel" counted for anything in the first place (which it didn't, they being the cynically pragmatic bastards they are), unless you can provide specific examples, your support for Israel is entirely of your own invention.
As I said - dead in the water - all you have are your holocaust-like denials
No examples - no case, only denials.
Wonder if you have a view on Einstein's statement on Israeli fascism, particularly in relation to Deir Yassin, or are you going to keep this one a secret too?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:31 AM

'Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:.....

       Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.'

This is just utter rubbish and I don't care who said it. Antisemitism is racial prejudice directed at Jews. The term cannot be levelled, no matter how much Bibi and Michael and bobad and Keith might wish it, against a state. For a start, antisemitism goes back thousands of years before there was a state of Israel. Second, the state of Israel contains millions of people who are not Jews. In fact, one day soon, ethnic Jews may even form a minority of the population. Perhaps Israel may wish to put itself in prejudicial harm's way by characterising itself as a Jewish state, but what it can't do is make itself into a state exclusively populated by Jews.

I fully understand why millions of Israelis would be offended by comparisons between current Israeli-regime actions and the Nazis, and, for that reason, I think it's very unhelpful and wrong-headed so to do. I'm revolted by the mistreatment of Palestinians and the land thefts, but I do want to see peace one fine day. Highlighting the undeniably outrageous and inhumane acts perpetrated by the Israeli regime by describing them in factual terms is enough. I also think it's best to describe the actions as "by the Israeli regime" or "by the Israeli military" rather than "by Israel" (though, apart from courting the usual brainless accusations of antisemitism from Bibi and at least three people here) there isn't much wrong with that shorthand. What is never right is to refer to "the Jewish lobby" (inaccurate) or "outrages perpetrated by the Jews". Even if it is mostly Jewish people who carry out the actions we are referring to, they may not be practising Jews and they may not be carrying out actions in the name of the Jewish belief system. Most people who claim to be oppressing or killing others in the name of their religion are, in fact, acting against the tenets of their religion. What a pity we feel so free to not apply the same standard to actions carried out by people of the Islamic belief system - but we don't, do we?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:34 AM

Grave misuse of brackets there. Grr.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 11:10 AM

unless you can provide specific examples, your support for Israel is entirely of your own invention.

I did.
Sweden, Ireland, France, Canada, Australia,......

Trade of course, but also cultural links and diplomatic ties.
Can you produce one democratic government statement that accuses Israel of any crime?
No, or you would have already done so.
They know it is all bollocks for the consumption of naive dupes like you and not informed intelligent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 11:19 AM

"I wish to compare it to Andrex. Sometimes, only the best will do when you wish to wipe your arse."

.,,.
Ah, yes; true to form! -- An argument based on shit from a contemptible little* vulgarian ~~

~M~

*even if he does regard as his main claim to fame his humungous dong!