BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 07:58 PM

And what right do Israelis have to defend themselves from those trying to kill them, after all they're fucking Jews and besides they control the US government, the world's press, the banks and they drink the blood of non Jewish babies, right Stevie boy?

Like I always tell Keith, you can't argue with bloody idiots. By the way, I'm not calling you a bloody idiot. I don't need to. This post of yours marks you out as such without any extra input from me. Also, you lost your cool. You don't get nowhere if you lose your cool. I never lose my cool. Watch and learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 04:32 AM

"to wash the slime off."
The slime is built in I'm afraid Brucie - it's part of the makeup of you Antisemites and won't wash off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 12:15 PM

The Palestinian Red Line
By Prof. Efraim Inbar December 16, 2013

BESA Center Perspectives Paper No. 227

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: PA leader Mahmoud Abbas views recognition of Israel as the Jewish state as a red line. It is high time the Palestinians recognize the Jewish people's right to their ancient homeland, as Israel already recognized Palestinian rights in the land 35 years ago.

The media reported that Mahmoud Abbas, head of the Palestinian Authority (PA), rejected the peace proposals submitted by US Secretary of State John Kerry. The Palestinians leaked that Abbas sent a letter to Kerry reiterating his complete opposition to the demand to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. This was declared a "red line" that the Palestinians will not cross.

This "red line" is not just about semantics, but rather the essence of the conflict. The Palestinian position amounts to denying the Jews the right to establish their state in their homeland. It also indicates without any doubt that the Palestinians, despite the conventional wisdom, are not ready to reach a historic compromise with Zionism, the Jewish national revival movement. Therefore, a stable peace based on mutual recognition and ending all demands is not in the cards. The weak PA seems to accept partition of Mandatory Palestine into two states – perhaps in accordance with the PLO's stages approach – but it still refrains from accepting the legitimacy of the Zionist enterprise.

This is in stark contrast to Israel, which recognized the "legitimate rights of the Palestinians" in the September 1978 Camp David Accords, and is ready for generous territorial concessions in order to implement a partition of the Land of Israel/Palestine. The bitter truth is that the asymmetry in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has not changed for over a century. In essence, this ethno-religious conflict is not about territory – although it obviously has a territorial dimension – but about securing the recognition of the other side to national rights in a given territory.

Despite the image of untrustworthiness in keeping written agreements, Palestinians actually give great importance to the language used in the documents they are asked to sign. Yasser Arafat, generally viewed by most Israelis as an accomplished liar, refused in 2000 to sign an agreement that included a clause about an end to all demands. For him the conflict could end only with Israel's eventual demise. Similarly, Abbas cannot bring himself to put his signature to a document which says that the Jews have returned to their homeland. We know that the perception of Jews being foreign invaders of Palestine is a fundamental widespread Palestinian attitude, which is instilled in the younger generations in the PA-run schools.

The entrenchment of such attitudes is clear also by the lack of a debate among the Palestinians whether to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Discussing Jewish rights to the Land of Israel is not conceivable in the current intra-Palestinian deliberations. Not even the so-called Palestinian moderates are calling for a debate among the Palestinians on whether to recognize the right of self-determination of the Jews in their historic homeland. Palestinian polls do not ask whether Israel should be recognized as a Jewish state. Normative language mentioning rights and international norms in Palestinian discourse is reserved for Palestinian demands only, and is never applied to understand what Israelis want.

The efforts of the Palestinian media to negate the Jewish past and historic links to the Temple Mount, and even the Western Wall, indicate an ideological commitment to rewriting history. Palestinian archeology is similarly used to erase all traces of Jewish presence from the land. Even Koranic sources mentioning the links of the Jews to the Land of Israel are ignored. Such Palestinian behavior serves only to prolong the conflict because it does not teach the Palestinians that Jews are part of the history of this land. All these acts are intolerable and must stop before Israel considers signing a comprehensive peace agreement.

It was a mistake not to insist on recognition of Israel being a Jewish state in the negotiations with the Palestinians in the 1990s. Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu understands very well the need for such recognition by the Palestinians to ensure a historic peace deal, and his insistence on getting it in the framework of a comprehensive settlement is right on the mark.

Moreover, Palestinians are different than the Egyptians or Jordanians, who were not required to accept Israel as a Jewish state. They have no claims to Palestine, while it is the Palestinians and the Israelis that fight for the same piece of land.

The Israelis recognized Palestinian legitimate rights 35 years ago. It is high time for the Palestinians to learn about the "other" they are in conflict with, and reciprocate if they are serious about making peace.

Prof. Efraim Inbar, director of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies, is a professor of political studies at Bar-Ilan University and a fellow at the Middle East Forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:16 AM

Iran Must Not Be Allowed to Remain Nuclear

If there is one lesson I hope the world has learned from the past it is that regimes rooted in brutality must never be trusted. And the words and actions of the leadership of Iran leave no doubt as to their intentions.

Should the civilized nations of the world trust a regime whose supreme leader said yet again last month that Israel is "doomed to annihilation," and referred to my fellow Jewish Zionists as "rabid dogs?"

Should we who believe in human rights, trust a regime which in the 21st century stones women and hangs homosexuals?

Should we who believe in freedom trust a regime which murdered its own citizens in the streets of Tehran when the people protested a stolen election in the Green Revolution of Summer, 2009?

Should we who believe in the United States trust a regime whose parliament last month erupted in "Death to America" chants as they commemorated the 34th anniversary of the storming of our Embassy in Tehran?

Should we who believe in life trust a regime whom our own State Department lists as one of the world's foremost sponsors of terrorism?

America, too, defines itself by its words and actions. America adopted me, as it did so many others, and gave me a home after my people were exterminated in the camps of Europe. And from the time of the founding fathers America has always stood up to tyrants. Our nation is morally compromised when it contemplates allowing a country calling for the destruction of the State of Israel to remain within reach of nuclear weapons.

Sanctions have come at a terrible economic cost for the people of Iran. But, unfortunately, sanctions are what have brought the Iranian regime to the negotiating table.

I appeal to President Obama and Congress to demand, as a condition of continued talks, the total dismantling of Iran's nuclear infrastructure and the regime's public and complete repudiation of all genocidal intent against Israel. And I appeal to the leaders of the United States Senate to go forward with their vote to strengthen sanctions against Iran until these conditions have been met.

I once wrote that history has taught us to trust the threats of our enemies more than the promises of our friends. Our enemies are making serious threats. It is time to take them seriously. It is time for our friends to keep their promises.

Elie Wiesel

Nobel Peace Laureate

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 05:38 PM

"On trips to Europe, Ali-Selah said that people she met were surprised to learn that Israeli Arabs studied engineering and medicine in Israel, and that they lived among Jews. She points to this lack of awareness as helping to perpetuate the falsehood—strengthened by BDS and Boycotters like Roger Waters — that Israel is an apartheid state –which denies a fundamental truth: Arabs, and in particular Arab women, have more freedom, liberties and academic opportunities in Israel than in any Arab country."

Guess Who's Valedictorian at Israel's Top Medical School?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:18 AM

And what are we to gather from a token Muslim, BooBad?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:35 AM

Well *I* would gather that she knows much more about freedom, liberties and academic opportunities in Israel than you do, contrary to what you like to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:41 AM

"Yet another hypocrite who directed the world to sever ties with Israel until he needed what Israel had to offer. And Israel provided even Sarraj with its best medical care."

Dead Gaza BDS Advocate Sought Israeli Medical Care

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 12:24 PM

And she's still a token Muslim, very much like the token Black folks in the U.S & elsewhere, trotted out for convenience & PR purposes.

So what?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 12:25 PM

By the way, BooBad, what are "uncle Tom" and "oreo" in Hebrew? Or in Arabic, for that matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 01:42 AM

Is there a word that describes a people who give care and comfort to their sworn enemies?
The nearest I can think of is "Good Samaritan."

Are there any examples of Jews receiving such care from their enemies?
Are there "hundreds, possibly thousands" but you can't produce one Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 08:16 AM

So Greg, I suppose you'd call the 77% of Israeli Palestinians who say they would rather live in the state of Israel than any where else in the world "uncle Toms" too. Astonishing arrogance even for an ideologue.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 12:44 PM

the 77% of Israeli Palestinians who say they would rather live in the state of Israel...

Source for this figure?

Stockholm syndrome, or just plain desperation?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 08:27 PM

Historian Says Bugs Bunny Might be Jewish

A noted Jewish-British cinematic historian has claimed that the world's most famous rabbit displays prominent Jewish characteristics. According to film scholar David Yehuda Stern, Bugs Bunny was created by a Jewish producer, lived in a Jewish neighborhood, has a distinctly New York/Jewish accent and uses his wit and sense of humor to avoid all attempts to eliminate him.

Stern revealed his findings at a lecture held recently at Britain's University of Warwick, Israeli daily Ma'ariv reported. Stern, who watched thousands of animated shorts that feature Bugs Bunny, noted in his presentation that there are Jewish fingerprints all over the smart aleck cartoon character, including the very voice of Bugs Bunny – Jewish actor Mel Blanc.

Stern's exhaustive study even included the findings of one specific cartoon episode in which Bugs Bunny flashes back to his childhood. The New York neighborhood Bugs grew up in is teeming with obviously Jewish characters, such as ultra-Orthodox Jews and other stereotypically Eastern European figures from the turn of the 20th century.

Stern closed his case for Bugs Bunny being Jewish by reminding his audience that the legendary rabbit's arch nemesis is…Porky Pig. The pig, of course, is Judaism's quintessentially unclean animal.

Lastly, Stern joked that the word 'rabbit' becomes 'rabbi' if you just get rid of the final letter…

Bugs! buballeh! Welcome home!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 06:52 AM

Israel has made it quite clear throughout the peace talks (that dare not mention their name in some quarters) by it's aggressive and hostile behaviour to any form of settlement that does not include further illegal settlements
The Israeli regime have announced further settlements in the last few days
As someone rightly said - "Small hope for Israel/Palestine" thanks to such warlike actions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 08:03 AM

First time I looked at this thread. Usual apologists I see.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 08:13 AM

Absolutely - they'll be back when they've finished fighting the good fight for Christians and telling it how if was in WW1
Happy New year Muskie

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 09:45 AM

Ah yes, the usual insightful and helpful contribution to the topic by the usual suspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 09:59 AM

"Ah yes, the usual insightful and helpful contribution to the topic by the usual suspects."
And the silent supporters of Israeli terrorism by the usual apologist - not helpful, but certainly enlightening.
Don't suppose you have any comments on the Israeli attempts to sabotage the peace conference yet again Boo-Boo - no? - thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 11:23 AM

Who's trying to sabotage the peace conference again?

"A soldier is murdered by a Palestinian co-worker, another soldier is killed by a sniper near Hebron, a 9-year-old is wounded next to her Psagot home from a terrorist's gunshot, a reserve colonel is murdered by Palestinians outside his house in the Jordan Valley, a soldier is wounded by an explosive hidden in a tunnel on the Gaza Strip border, another soldier is stabbed to death by a Palestinian on a bus in Afula, an explosion in a Bat Yam bus is averted due to a passenger's alertness and several hours later a Defense Minister employee is shot dead by a sniper, a Jerusalem policeman is almost run over. Six Israelis have been murdered since the negotiations with the Palestinians were renewed, and there were some 600 other violent nationalistic events."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 12:37 PM

Soldiers being killed by their victims - what a shame.
A government deliberately prolonging a long running conflict caused by annexing lands illegally - by annexing more land in the middle of a peace conference - a crime against humanity.
While Israel continues to occupy and extend its occupation of Palestinian lands people - Israelis and Palestinians will continue to die - simple logic
As still you bunch of morons refuse to comment on Israeli aggression
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 01:45 PM

There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which Jewish property was confiscated and retitled, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 04:47 AM

Yjere are illegal settlement - and there always have been - the Israelis have slaughteres and continue to slaughter to gain territory - which is the start and finish of the trouble in he Middle East.
100+ American vetoes have stood between Israel being indicted as the war criminal she is.
The peace treaty has provided a straw to grasp to end the trouble - the Israelis, from the beginning of negotiations, has done her best to scupper those efforts - why shouldn't she - she has the nuclear weapons and the US veto on her side.
You people have chosen to side with a war criminal and human rights abuser - and you scurry back into your rat-holes whenever Israel's atrocities are held up in front of you.
Why not try your 'Muslim Watch' fascist website again - that might have something to can put up in their defence?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 05:01 AM

the Israelis have slaughteres and continue to slaughter to gain territory

They are not much good at it then.
They have gained none since their defensive war of 1973, and have given away territories bigger than UK!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 06:49 AM

Given back - and kept the plum bits for themselves
Go back to rewriting WW1 history and defending fascist 'information' from 'Muslim Watch' - you are not much good at this - or at that either, but at least your other efforts are good for a laugh!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 07:13 AM

I do not rewrite History, but I do learn from historians.
I am not so arrogant and stupid as to believe I know more than them!

I do not defend any "fascist information," but could find no fault with the list posted by Bobad.
Neither could you Jim.
Neither could Greg.
Neither could Muppet.
No-one could, so it is probably accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 08:09 AM

"Given back" to whom, Jim? To the Ottoman Empire, the previous owners? I think not.

But I know from experience that it is no use trying to approach you with anything resembling facts on this topic, & it will only degenerate again into accusations of a hurtful nature both ways, so I have now done with this thread,

Hope all had a Merry Xmas. Happy New Year to one & all, Gentile or Jew Or you who turn the wheel and look to windward...

~M~

Not sure what this last bit means: it's from Eliot's The Waste Land, for anyone who may claim to be able to make heads or tails of that fraudulent load of old bum!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 09:01 AM

I see that Hezbollah is doing their part for the peace process: Rockets fired from Lebanon into Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 11:52 AM

Given back to the people who have been driven out since the treaty Mike - who else?
The peace treaty that is being deliberately sabotaged by Israeli aggression (Government policy Boo Boo) could save thousands of Israeli and Palestinian lives and pave the way for permanent peace in the Middle East.
I assume you don't want to comment on the wrecking tactics of the Israeli regime - like your soulmates here!!
I had little doubt that you would be lurking somewhere waving your magic wand - shouldn't you be rehearsing for a pantomime somewhere?
Seasons....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:26 PM

but I do learn from historians.

Not quite, Keith. You "learn"[sic] from a carefully selected group of historians.

Its the old ruse of adopting a position and then searching and carefully selecting material to suppost that position.

That is not "learning" nor is it the way serious historians or students of history behave.

Its complete bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 01:47 PM

Quite a large group Greg, and not carefully selected.
Not selected at all.
You can not find one.
NOT A SINGLE ONE!
Bad luck Greg.
You got it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 02:11 PM

I used in fact to do the village pantomime ~~ Haddenham, Cambs is noted around this part of the Fens for its home-made pantomimes: Norma Major came once when Sir John was MP for nearby Huntingdon. I was once a Dr Who, and once a Merry Man in Robin Hood who got shot in the bottom with an arrow. But you will be disappointed to learn that I was never a Fairy Godmother; when we did Cinderella, I was an Ugly Sister ~~ sorry! And I've got too old to do it any more, alas. So I have no wands to wave.

HNY right back 2U, James.

What, you might well ask, has this to do the thread? Well, Jim started off about magic wands & pantomimes. Anyway, just where did those shepherds wash their socks then, at that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 02:51 PM

"Well, Jim started off about magic wands & pantomimes. "
My exact feelings about all religions - pleased to see we can agree on something.
Happy New Year Mike - don't work too hard - and don't forget "Nobody loves a fairy when she's (past) forty"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 03:06 PM

"from a carefully selected group of historians."
Seems like Keith has found himself a new religion - started off well
"There is only one true historian -
Thou shalt worship no her historian than mine"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 07:42 PM

"I do not defend any "fascist information," but could find no fault with the list posted by Bobad.
Neither could you Jim.
Neither could Greg.
Neither could Muppet.
No-one could, so it is probably accurate."

Oh well, that's it then! Four blokes on an obscure niche music website, two of whom were certainly not trying to find fault, couyldn't find fault.

Fan-bloody-tastic!

And that is to be accepted as gospel (according to one of the non tryers)?

Jesus fucking wept! Talk about Hubris!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 02:31 AM

Can you find a fault with it then Troub?
One false entry?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 03:17 AM

"Neither could you Jim."
Bobad put it up - you gave it your unquestioning support - the 'information' comes from an openly declared Islamophobic site - Muslim Watch
Which of these statements is incorrect?
It is the job of the originators and supporters of vomit like this to prove their case, not for the recipients to disprove it.
You are a stated Islamophobe - you think all Muslims are "implanted" to be perverts by their culture - you have openly made this statement and argued for it on this forum.
Why should we take the word of you, Muslim Watch, the B.N.P..... or any other bunch of lying fanatics.
Go through Boo-Boo's 'Muslim Watch's list and prove the claimed incidents to be true, and to be sectarian and not criminal attacks - it'll only take you few months.   
In the meantime:
Israel's continuing actions of building settlements, along with its previous hostile militaristic behaviour has already put the peace talks - the only possibility at the present time to end the Middle East slaughter - in extreme jeopardy.
It appears to be the intention of the Israeli regime to scupper any little chance of success that these talks have of bringing the conflict to a peaceful conclusion.
So far you and your tiny handful of Israeli supporters have refused to comment on their behaviour - would you care to do so now?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:54 AM

I did not give it "unquestioning support" Jim.
I told you that I did some checking, but found no faults.
What else am I supposed to do?
You also found no faults.
Nor did Troubadour, Greg or Musket.

That suggests that it is probably mostly accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:58 AM

You have started smearing me with lies again as you always do when losing.
Just the usual, same old lies.
Let's just discuss the issues Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 07:37 AM

"So far you and your tiny handful of Israeli supporters have refused to comment on their behaviour"

See my post of 28 Dec 13 - 01:45 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:45 AM

Israel has released a third batch of prisoners as part of its peace process.
The release was greeted with wild celebrations by the Palestinians.
Will the Palestinians do anything that the Israelis can celebrate?

Missile attacks, bus bombings and shooting civilians does not do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 11:31 AM

DEBKA Weekly No. 616 of Dec. 20 was first to divulge the nine points of the unpublished draft Kerry planned to present to Israeli and Palestinian leaders this week. Since then, certain amendments were introduced - especially in relation to Israel's military presence in the Jordan Valley and Judea and Samaria. The document continues to be molded by Kerry's ongoing back-and-forth communications with the two parties.
Nevertheless, the nine points disclosed hereunder stand as the basic guidelines of the proposed US framework:

Israel hands over 92.8 pc of West Bank to Palestinians

1. Nearly all its content draws on the proposal Ehud Olmert, then Prime Minister, submitted to Abbas on Aug. 31, 2008, which he never accepted; nor was it approved by any Israeli authority.

2. Territory: Israel will annex 6.8% of the West Bank including the four main settlement blocs of Gush Etzion with Efrata; Maale Adummim; Givat Zeev;and Ariel, as well as all of the "settlements" of East Jerusalem and Har Homa - in exchange for the equivalent of 5.5% of Israeli territory.
3. The Safe Passage: The territorial link between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank would cut through southern Israel and remain under Israeli sovereignty and Palestinian control.

Our sources add that out of all other options, the American sponsors of the accord prefer to build an express railway line from Gaza to Hebron, without stops, which would be paid for by Washington. Abbas has already informed John Kerry that he wants the train to go all the way to Ramallah.
There will be a special road connecting Bethlehem with Ramallah that bypasses East Jerusalem. This is mostly likely the same route currently planned to go around Maaleh Adummim.
Since the safe passage will cross through Israeli, accounting for 1% of its territory, this area will be deducted from the land Israel concedes, leaving 4.54% for the land swap with the Palestinians.
4. Jerusalem: East Jerusalem will be divided territorially along the lines of the Clinton Parameters with the exception of the "Holy Basin," which comprises 0.04% of the West Bank.

Sovereignty over this ancient heart of Jerusalem, with its unique and historic concentration of Jewish, Christian and Muslim shrines, will pass to an international commission comprised of the US, Israel, the Palestinians, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
5. Refugees: This issue will be addressed according to guidelines proposed by President Bill Clinton at Camp David in the year 2000 - and rejected by Yasser Arafat.
An International Foundation will be established to resettle the bulk of the Palestinian refugees in Canada and Australia, except for a small portion to be accepted in Israel in the framework of family reunification.

6. Security: The Olmert package made no mention of security. However the Kerry draft deals extensively with this issue and Israel's concerns. It calls for the evacuation of all 10,000 Jewish settlers from the Jordan Valley leaving behind a chain of posts along the Jordan River. Security corridors cutting through the West Bank will maintain their land and operational links with Israel.
Border crossings will be set up between Palestine and Jordan with an Israeli security presence. The security section of the draft assigns the use of West Bank and Gaza airspace by Israel and the Palestinians. There will be no Israeli military presence inside the Palestinian state.

7. Taxes: The present arrangement for Israel to collect customs levies and distribute the revenues to the Palestinians will continue. (debkafile: That is about the only clause which the Palestinians accept.) Israel will carry out security checks on goods bound for Palestinian that are unloaded at Haifa and Ashdod ports, and levy customs at rates fixed by the Palestinians to be disbursed in the Palestinian state.

8. Settlements: Eighty percent of all Jewish settlers on the West Bank will be confined to the major settlement blocs as defined in 2. The remaining 20% amounting, according to American calculations to 80,000 people, will have to decide on their own whether they prefer to stay where they are under Palestinian rule or move to Israel.

debkafile's sources report that Secretary Kerry advised the Israeli Prime Minister bluntly that he need not promise to force settlers to leave their homes - as the Sharon government did when he executed the unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip in 2005. Netanyahu replied that it was unacceptable for Israel to abandon the settlers to their fate. He therefore proposed that instead of forcing them to cross back into Israel, they would be absorbed in the larger settlement blocs remaining under Israeli sovereignty.

9. Timelines: Different timetables are proposed in the US framework for implementing different sections: The Palestinian leader says he is willing to give Israel three years as a transition period for relocating settlers.
When he submitted the paper to the Israeli and Palestinian leaders earlier this month, the Secretary of State told them that he saw no point in the two negotiating teams holding meetings consumed by interminable debates on one point or another. He therefore asked both parties to henceforth send him their comments in writing.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:43 PM

That sounds like an agreement which could work Bobad, but I still have suspicions about the Israeli government's sincerity, and if such suspicion exists outside the area, those inside will take a lot of reassuring.

I sincerely hope it works, since it gives Palestine at least the illusion of sovereignty.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 05:56 PM

On the eve of Kerry's handing an American two state proposal to both the Palestinian and Israeli governments, polls indicate that a majority of BOTH Israelis and Palestinians support a two-state solution. The poll in Palestine was conducted by Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in Ramallah. The poll in Israel was. conducted by the Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. 63% of Israelis and 53% of Palestinians support a permanent- settlement based on two states.

http://truman.huji.ac.il/.upload/Joint_press_December_2013%20%282%29.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 03:46 PM

Is there good news on the horizon?

"He may be getting somewhere, after all
John Kerry may be gradually persuading enough Israeli right-wingers that a Palestinian state is worth striving for"

The Economist

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:01 PM

I agree Bobad.

On the face of it, there is reason for hope, just as long as a two state solution doesn't mean that one state is partially occupied by forces of the other, or that part of the first is under constant siege by the other.

Such is the current position!

I would be interested in hearing just how much of Gaza's supply chain will still be controlled by Israel and whether Gaza will trade through its own ports.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 09:11 AM

Wounded Syrian couple treated in Israel

"We were surprised by the treatment and dedicated medical care we got in Israel," she said. "We hesitated coming to Israel, because we were taught to hate it. We were taught this is a brutal enemy state, but we learned that reality is different. People here have a conscience. Our enemy is in Syria, not in Israel. If only we could stay here."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 10:22 AM

Secretary of State Kerry devoted most of his talk at Davos today to crafting a framework to resolve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict around the following prinicples:

"An independent state for Palestinians wherever they may be; security arrangements for Israel that leave it more secure, not less; a full, phased, final withdrawal of the Israeli army; a just and agreed solution to the Palestinian refugee problem; an end to the conflict and all claims and mutual recognition of the nation-state of the Palestinian people and the nation-state of the Jewish people."

He also predicted that a failure of the current round of talks would be catastrophic for both parties as well as for the US. He suggested that the UN had neither the ability or the credibility to grant the Palestinian aspiration for independence, and if they failed to achieve it in this round of negotiations with the Israelis, another opportunity would not be likely to arise in the near future. He warned that unilateral acts by either party could precipitate a downward spiral back to violent conflict.

With regard to the eventual complete withdrawal of Israeli troops he added that "the Israelis rightfully will not withdraw unless they know the West Bank will not become a new Gaza, and nobody can blame any leader of Israel for being concerned about that reality." He said that the US, Israel, Jordan and the Palestinians have discussed the creation at the border with Jordan, a "security structure that meets the highest standards anywhere in the world," one which would have the capacity to thwart "an individual terrorist or a conventional armed force."

He emphasized that both sides would gain from a peace agreement. Palestine would achieve independent statehood and the chance for economic prosperity. Israel would get diplomatic recognition and economic ties with the Arab and Muslim world. Estimates are that could result in a six percent increase in GDP per year for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 01:48 PM

Hope lives:

"Despite the impression Netanyahu is trying to make, even his reservations on the American document won't ruin the framework. Netanyahu is about to say yes to the American outline, which requires dramatic Israeli concessions. He's still trying to play with words and engineer the document so that it won't break up his government, but the chances of that are slim."

Netanyahu close to accepting Kerry plan – and losing his coalition

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 06:09 PM

Hope Lives? Not as long as Netanyahu and his party live.