BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:29 AM

At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority's health minister, who represents the crumbling "unity government" in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.

Washngton Post

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM

"you also regard every Palestinian (man, woman, and child) as a terrorist."


Another lie, in addition to your other ones.




MOST Palestinians are not in favor of Hamas rocket attacks.


But those anti-Semites here that blame Israel for having the audacity to survive, and not let itself be wiped out, will continue to equate mass bombardment of civilian areas by Hamas anti-personnel rockets as the same as targeted strikes at military target in self-defense would not allow any Israeli to survive, if they had their way.

Ask Hamas what their goal is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM

Troubadour, are you saying that it is a lie that Hamas fires rockets from sites adjacent to hospitals.
I have to tell you that it has been actually shown on news reports.
Hamas does not even deny operating from civilian areas.
Can you find one single source, from anywhere in the world, that does deny it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM

"which are the only "evidence?" for the above claims and which of course are totally impartial"

And of course the claims of the Palestinian Health Authority that so many of the killed are children or non-combatantsHAS to be believed, right? And that ALL are killed by Israeli fire, and not a single Palestinian antipersonnel rocket that has been seen to fall in Gaza has ever hurt ANYONE?


I guess it is ONLY Israelis that you call liars- after all, Palestinians would never lie to gain a political advantage, right?


What a bush of shit for brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:12 AM

"you also regard every Palestinian (man, woman, and child) as a terrorist."
Israel most certainly does
The casualty total has now exceeded 600
Israel's use of Flechette shells
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:20 AM

I like how terrorist sympathisers such as braidedbeardedbruce and Keith A Hole of Hertford love to bandy the two words "Palestinian" and "Hamas" around interchangeably.

There again, anybody who agrees with the international community on the criminal aspects of the Israeli forces are called anti semitic bastards, so not a bit surprised at the bloodthirsty crap that gives such odious people a stiffy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:34 AM

ain't it just like a bully to blame the victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM

"And of course the claims of the Palestinian Health Authority"
HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM

"Palestinian armed groups have continued to fire rockets that are indiscriminate when directed at Israeli population centers, in violation of the laws of war. Ouda Lafi al-Waj, 32, was killed and four of his family members were wounded when a rocket struck their home in an "unrecognized" Bedouin community near the town of Dimona in southern Israel on July 19. A rocket badly wounded two Bedouin girls in another "unrecognized" village on July 17.

On July 16, staff of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) found 20 rockets stored in an empty school building. UNRWA promptly removed them, notified all parties, and condemned the military use of its facilities by an unidentified Palestinian armed group. Palestinian armed groups should end unlawful attacks on Israeli population centers and avoid deploying forces and munitions in areas that unnecessarily place civilians at risk."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 02:54 PM

Hey useful idiots check out this photo taken by Wall Street Journal reporter Nick Casey: Hamas spokesperson is being photograph in the basement of a hospital, designed to look like a wrecked outdoor neighborhood, in order to appear "authentic".

On Monday, Casey wrote: "You have to wonder [with] the shelling how patients at Shifa hospital feel as Hamas uses it as a safe place to see media."

During the 15 days of Israel's Operation Protective Edge, Hamas has been caught using hospitals, mosques and schools to hide militants and weapons, all of which are contrary to international rules of war created to protect civilians.

The Algemeiner

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:41 PM

Killing the kids is just a prophylactic against future conflict, eh?

Absolutely. Boo, BB & FWK are chanelling Oliver Cromwell: "Nits make lice".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:10 PM

For second time, rockets found at UN school in Gaza

Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip," the organization said in a statement issued Tuesday. "As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets. The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons."

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:16 PM

GregF WANTS to have Palestinian civilians killled…


"As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff withdrew from the area.

The discovery came after Israel Defense Forces (IDF) accused Hamas of using the Gaza City neighborhood of Shijaiyeh as "fortress for its weapons," according to The Algemeiner.

The IDF released aerial photos Sunday of rocket launch sites inside Shijaiyeh. The pictures claimed Hamas launched rockets from inside and around a mosque, a hospital, a children's playground and a cemetery.

The IDF also said the neighborhood is "saturated with Hamas observation points and is home to a vast network of tunnels used for attacking Israel."

On Monday, the IDF released a video of rocket launchers found next to an agricultural school in Beit Hanoun. Some of the rockets were still in the launchers, ready to be fired."




"In the second case in a week, the UN Agency responsible for Palestinians admitted that its staff had discovered rockets hidden in their schools in the Gaza Strip.

"Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA (the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East), discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip," the agency said in a statement Tuesday evening.

"As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets. The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons," the organization said.

UNRWA said it "strongly and unequivocally condemns the group or groups responsible for this flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law," but did not name any Palestinian entities, like Hamas, which rules the coastal enclave.

"The Agency immediately informed the relevant parties and is pursuing all possible measures for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school. UNRWA will launch a comprehensive investigation into the circumstances surrounding this incident," the agency said.

The statement is almost identical to one released after the last hidden rockets case, when the organization found 20 rockets in another Gaza educational facility on July 16th, in the midst of fighting in Operation Protective Edge.

A day later, Israel's UN Ambassador said he was certain that more such facilities housed Hamas weaponry.

"Yesterday, UNRWA admitted that it mysteriously found 20 missiles in one of its schools," Ambassador Ron Prosor said on Friday in an emergency Security Council session on Gaza.

"I'm sure that if UNRWA takes the time to check its other facilities, it will discover that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Hamas is using UN facilities to commit a double war crime by targeting Israeli civilians while hiding behind Palestinian civilians.""

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:16 PM

VACANT school, Boo- not one (or a hospital) full of kids.

Time for you to go over to Gaza personally and report first-hand instead of your relentless cut&pastes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:17 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-hEbpow5WE

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:20 PM

GregF,

"The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons,""


So when the Israelis legitimately blow the EMPTY school up, you will get all the Palestinian civilian casualties that your (very) little heart desirers.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM

Since the Hamas rockets are antipersonnel weapons, designed to kill as many as possible, unlike the high explosive Israeli bombs that destroy buildings and rocket launchers.

When the rockets are blown up, THEIR shrapnel will kill the local civilian, not the Israeli bombs.

I know, YOUR solution is to have Hamas launch them at Israel and kill Israeli civilians.

You should win some sort of humanitarian award- say a war crimes trial for what you support.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:27 PM

In a rather surprising development, the EU actually "gets it."

EU calls on Hamas, Islamic Jihad to disarm
28-country bloc defends Israel's right to fight, says indiscriminate rocket fire from Gaza is 'criminal and unjustifiable'

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:34 PM

'The union's 28 foreign ministers issued a joint statement after a meeting of the European Council, calling for an end to Hamas rocket attacks and an immediate ceasefire.

"The EU calls on Hamas to immediately put an end to these acts and to renounce violence. All terrorist groups in Gaza must disarm," it said in a statement.

It also condemned the rocket fire at Israel from the Gaza Strip as "criminal and unjustifiable acts," but said Israel must do more to prevent civilian casualties.

"While recognizing Israel's legitimate right to defend itself against any attacks, the EU underlines that the Israeli military operation must be proportionate and in line with international humanitarian law," it said.

The statement came as the Israeli and Palestinian death tolls climbed steadily, with some 30 Israelis killed since the operation began, and more than 600 Palestinians, many of them civilians.

The EU, which is often stridently critical of Israeli policies, also decried "calls on the civilian population of Gaza to provide themselves as human shields."

It said it was "extremely concerned" about the situation, and reiterated its call for an immediate ceasefire.

The EU also appealed for the open of crossings to transfer humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip, and emphasized that the current campaign pointed to "the unsustainable nature of the status quo" in the coastal enclave.

Earlier in the day, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon also condemned Hamas rocket fire and called on the group to stop using civilian sites for military purposes. He also called for a ceasefire."






I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:37 PM

Hillary Clinton defends Israel on Gaza

"Because of the actions by Hamas, first to rain rockets onto Israel, Israel being provoked — because I do think that was part of the Hamas calculation, to provoke Israel to respond, to defend itself, which any nation has to do if you are under attack like that, and then we see the unfortunate effects of any conflict with innocent people being caught in the crossfires."

Politico

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:09 PM

I seem to have precipitated another bout of Serial Postarrhoea fro BB- for which I apologize to all & sundry..

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:42 PM

Breaking News: Ya just gotta love them Israelis - shooting at ambulances & fuck the Geneva Convention.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:06 PM

Ambulances are not supposed to be used for terrorist purposes. But just as they did in previous conflicts with Israel, Hamas is using medical vehicles for moving their terrorists from one place to another. In the video above, released by the IDF Tuesday morning, an ambulance picks up two Hamas members and speeds off.

Hamas Terrorists Caught Using An Ambulance To Travel In Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:09 PM

Wise words from a wise man:

"Gaza could have become a showcase of Arab enlightenment and enterprise after Israel withdrew from the territory in 2005.

It could also have become a tourism haven and a crucible for learning and arts, science and technology.

Instead, Gaza has become a one-party Islamic dictatorship under Hamas, dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish state of Israel."


"When Palestinians stop chanting for the death of Jews and Israel, and start working to secure their own state, they will achieve it.

Palestinians have demonstrated courage and perseverance. What they need now, is wisdom."

Stop the Jew-hatred​ and build Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:23 PM

Under the rules of the Geneva Convention Israel is within its rights to target anything being used for military purposes. The only party in this set to that is in contravention of the Geneva Convention is Hamas. I must have missed your posts railing against that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:39 PM

Israel is within its rights to target anything being used for military purposes.

And who sez they are " being used for military purposes"?

Israel.

Get a fuckin' clue, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 09:06 PM

On Tuesday, a U.N. delegation led by secretary General Ban Ki-moon met with Israel's leaders, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

At the visit, Netanyahu showed the Secretary evidence of the Hamas rockets that have been raining down from Gaza for the past few weeks.

The Prime Minister also showed detailed photos of the locations in Gaza where Hamas had dug tunnels inside a kindergarten and near a school.

When showing the maps and the tunnels, Netanyahu explained:

"The international community has pressed us to give cement to Gaza to build schools, hospitals and homes. And now we see what has happened to those deliveries of cement. They have not been used to build kindergartens but to build a tunnel that penetrates our territory so that Hamas can blow up our kindergartens and murder our children."

Netanyahu also gave an impromptu address to a group described by the Prime Minister's Twitter page as "ambassadors." In the brief statement, the Prime Minister delivered a clear warning to the rest of the world about radical Islam.

    "I ask not only for your support, I ask for your moral stance. I ask you to support Israel's right to defend itself, and not to sanctify the idea that these terrorists can attack a beleaguered democracy, can rocket our cities, can target millions of our people, can hide among their civilians, and get away with it. Because if they can, you're next."

    "And what message does it send? To Al-Queda, to Boko-Haram, to Hezbollah, to ISIS, what does it send? What kind of message does it send? What kind of moral message does it send?" he asked emphatically. "When Israel is being condemned for doing what any democracy would legitimately do to defend itself."

    "I ask you to stand with Israel because it is right. Because it is our right to defend ourselves and it is our right to exercise that right."


Read more at http://www.westernjournalism.com/watch-israeli-prime-minister-issues-dire-warning-world/#CvQ6ubZxE0Hj9IxH.99

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 09:31 PM

And who sez they are " being used for military purposes"?

Israel.


Oh yeah right Schmeg, Israel, and we all know what those Jews are like, don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:59 AM

"we all know what those Jews are like, don't we?"
Now you are claiming that it is the Jews that have murdered the hundreds of men, women and children civilians in Gaza, used flechette bombs on them, destroyed their houses, schools, medical centres, and left thousands of them homeless and without adequate medical support.
Do you really hate Jews that much Booboo - get help!
"When the rockets are blown up, THEIR shrapnel will kill the local civilian, not the Israeli bomb"
And have killed eactly how many people Brucie, compared to the Israeli slaughter of Palestinians going on at present - get real, this "defence" crap has been exposed as the farce it always was.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:15 AM

The international community requires Israel to cease killing people.

If what our bloodthirsty wannabe warriors on this thread wish for had any merit, surely the international community, UN, EU, LAN, USA etc would say Israel are OK to carry on?

But they don't.

As of two days ago, Netanyahu risks bring brought to account for war crimes, together with some of the Hamas hierarchy.

You will find that no respectable commentator sides with one set of criminals against the other with so much enthusiasm as the more repugnant people posting here.

Disagree with their disgusting agenda and they say you like to see dead bodies, or are anti Semitic. They seem to be about as low as you can get.

Good job nobody seems to be supporting them then.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:34 AM

Solutions??

I hear echos,
In a maze of words!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:28 AM

Does anyone deny that it was wrong to fire rockets at Israel?
Does anyone support Hamas in committing that unequivocal war crime?

If not, does anyone deny Israel the right to strike back at those war criminals, or do they lose that right because of the further war crime of siting among civilians?

If we allow Hamas to gain military advantage by committing war crimes, are we setting a dangerous precedent for future conflicts?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM

"We"?

Err.. Has anybody here supported Hamas? Does anybody deny the Palestinian people the right to defend themselves against Israeli aggression?

Are you still defending bombing civilians?

Two way street. You are a one way Charlie. Try shutting up before you realise how embarrassing for yourself your stupid little comments are.

Disgraceful. I know now why you come out in support of every little bigot on every bigoted subject. If it quacks and all that. A mutual friend said at a club only last week that the Keith of these threads isn't a nice person. Me? I'd be ashamed to say I know him.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:59 AM

Of course I do not defend bombing civilians.
it is a war crime to target them.
I also support Hamas' right to defend its positions militarily.

Now, will you answer any of my questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:06 AM

Sad to see the personal attack in your last post.
You are incapable of normal debate.

You can't challenge anything I say, so you try to discredit me personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:26 AM

Didn't read what he said, Keith, because I make it a principle not to read any of his posts: but that's the way that mathering little mother [in the American sense] operates. Best do as I do and pretend so far as possible that the vulgar little former·chairman·of·an·NHS·Trust and distinguished·person·honoured·by·HMQ [can you believe? but he never tires of reminding us!] doesn't exist. So far as I am concerned, solipsistically he doesn't.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:06 AM

"Does anyone deny that it was wrong to fire rockets at Israel?
Does anyone support Hamas in committing that unequivocal war crime?
If not, does anyone deny Israel the right to strike back at those war criminals"
Nobody has ever claimed otherwise - it is a war crime to slaughter hundreds of combatant in retaliation for those rockets - but the killing began as an act of revenge for the kidnapping of the three Israeli boys anyway - all the earlier victims were non combatants, again, mainly children.
Now, the Israelis are indiscriminately slaughtering the Gazan population - using them as hostages in order (they claim) to stop virtually ineffective rocket attacks.
You are supporting this illegal and inhuman slaughter and you have always supported such slaughter - that is the type of individual you are.
Stop wingeing about being misunderstood - you are an incredibly unpleasant and inhuman individual - live with it.
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Irish Times.
NO SAFE PLACE FOR CIVILIANS' IN DENSELY POPULATED ENCLAVES
Aid agencies
Palestinian civilians in densely populated Gaza have no place to hide from Israel's military offensive and children are paying the heaviest price, the United Nations said yesterday.
Israeli military pounded targets across the Gaza Strip, saying no ceasefire was near as US and UN diplomats pursued talks on halting fighting that has claimed more than 600 lives as the conflict entered its third week. "There is literally no safe place for civilians," Jens Laerke, spokesman for the UN office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs, told a news briefing in Geneva.
The death toll is rising in the coastal enclave which has an estimated 4,500 people per square kilometre, he said. The priority for aid agencies was protecting civilians and evacuating and treating the wound¬ed.
FUNDING APPEAL
Nearly 500 homes have been destroyed by Israeli air strikes and 100,000 people have sought shelter in schools of the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), where they need food, wa¬ter and mattresses, he said.
"This number continues to in¬crease by the hour," UNRWA said in a statement yesterday, raising its emergency funding appeal to $115 million (€85 million) from $60 million.
Israel began air strikes on the coastal strip on July 8th, say¬ing it wanted to halt missile fire out of Gaza by Hamas militants, and launched a ground offensive last Thursday.
"The ongoing ground incursion, begun July 18th, has great¬ly accelerated the casualty rate over the past two days, as well as the numbers of displaced families," the World Health Organisation said in a statement. Twenty-nine Israelis, 27 of them soldiers, have died. But the overwhelming majority of people killed so far in the conflict are Palestinians, including 121 Gazan children, said Juliette Touma of the UN Children's Fund (Unicef). More than 900 Palestinian children are also reported to have been injured, according to Unicef.
'TRAUMA'
"According to an assessment by aid workers on the ground at least 107,000 children need psycho-social support for the trau¬ma they are experiencing such as death, injury or loss of their homes," Mr Laerke said.
More than 1.2 million of the 1,8 million people in the enclave have no water or only limited access to water as power net¬works have been damaged or lack fuel for generators, he said.
"In addition, we do have re¬ports of sewage flooding which is a threat to public health," Mr Laerke said.
The UN's World Food Programme has distributed emergency food rations and food vouchers to more than 90,000 people so far, spokeswoman Elisabeth Byrs said. "Ready-to-eat food stocks are running low in Gaza given the conflict has lasted two weeks and the needs are increasing."
Food will be bought locally and also airlifted from Dubai.
The WHO said 18 health facilities in Gaza have been dam¬aged, including three hospitals.
An Israeli tank shell hit the Al- Aqsa hospital in the central Gaza Strip on Monday, killing four people and wounding 16, the health ministry said. - (Reuters)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM

Nobody has ever claimed otherwise - it is a war crime to slaughter hundreds of combatant in retaliation for those rockets

Thank you for those straight answers Jim.
Common ground.

How about my final 2 questions.

Does anyone deny Israel the right to strike back at those war criminals, or do they lose that right because of the further war crime of siting among civilians?

If Hamas is allowed to gain military advantage by committing war crimes, does it set a dangerous precedent for future conflicts?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:29 AM

Your two final questions have been answered over and over again
The Palestinian people have a right to defend themselves
Hamas is a far less threat to world peace and security as are the serial thugs and mass murderers ruling Israel at the present time, particularly as the latter has nuclear capability
It is a common practice of yours to justify extremism and war cimes and abuses by pointing out somebody "worse".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:34 AM

Should it not be remembered at all times in this dispute, BTW?, that, after Israel disengaged from the Gaza Strip in 2005

(to the disadvantage, it may be recalled, of a considerable demographic from among their own poullation whom they had then to compensate and resettle),

they cleared the way for free elections to be held; and the populace proceeded freely to elect Hamas.

This might be thought an oversimplification of a complex situation [see Wikipedia article on Gaza Strip]; but it is IMO a substantially accurate statement of what, in the first place, brought about the present lamentable situation.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM

More from The Irish Times for you to ignore, as you have ignored every other erport of what is happeing to the Palestinian people, including the destruction of hospitals, the killing of pateints and the use of horrific anti-personell eapns in civilian areas.
Jim Carroll

IS A WAR CRIME TO TARGET DENSELY PACKED GAZA HOMES
Msyi -Soufan]
Opinion

THE 'GAZA DOCTRINE' OF COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT AND DELIBERATELY SPREADING TERROR AMONG CIVILIANS IS ILLEGAL

Once again the Gaza Strip is subject to intense attack from Israeli forces. As of yesterday the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights has documented 593 killed, among them 483 civilians -151 children, 82 women - and 3,197 injured. Among the injured are 926 children and 641 women, although this does not include the figures for the border areas or the Sheajeia area.
Once again it is the civilian population which is targeted, deliberately brought into the eye of the storm.
Everyone in the Gaza Strip is exhausted, worried and terrified. This is as Israel intended. We believe that Israel is deploying the '"Gaza doctrine", a policy with its roots in the Dahiya doctrine first wit¬nessed in the 2006 Lebanon war, and subsequently refined in the Gaza Strip.
The purpose of the Gaza doctrine is straightforward: disproportionate force is used to cause terror among the civilian population to exert political pressure on the authorities in Gaza.
This policy of collective punishment, of deliberately causing terror, is unequivocal¬ly illegal but it is all too real.
This policy is evident in the intense bombardment of the Gaza Strip that preceded the start of the current offensive. For two weeks following the tragic kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank, open areas in the Gaza Strip were subject to intense bombardment. There is no military advantage to be acquired from the targeting of empty fields or desolate places. The purpose was instead to demonstrate Israel's force and presence. We could not sleep. We were constantly shaken by the thundering impact of one-tonne bombs.
However, the most obvious illustration of this policy in practice has been the widespread targeting of the homes of Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters. These homes are typically targeted in two phases whereby a "warning" is issued to the house in question so that it may be evacuat¬ed. This warning takes the form of either a dud missile (termed "roof knocking") or a phone call. The house is then targeted and destroyed, anywhere from five to 15 minutes later or sometimes even longer.
How is the destruction of these homes justified?
The law of armed conflict states that only combatants and military objectives maybe targeted. Civilians and civilian objects are protected from direct attack.

DESTRUCTION
Military objectives are "those objects which by their nature; location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralisation, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage".
The law of armed conflict permits the targeting of combatants. As such, in principle it is possible that a house may be targeted to target the combatants con-tained within (this attack is still subject to the requirement of proportionality). However, Israel has consistently issued warnings before an attack is launched, ensuring that no combatants are present.
The other legal possibility is that a home may also be targeted if it is being used to "make an effective contribution to military action"; ie if it is being used to store weapons or as a base from which attacks are launched. However, in the overwhelming majority of cases documented by the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights we have not found evidence that homes have been used to either store weapons (demonstrated by secondary explosions) or as a base from which to launch attacks (determined through interviews with neighbours and witnesses).
If a home does not satisfy these criteria then it is not a military objective and cannot be attacked.
A home cannot qualify as a military objective just because it is owned by a member of Hamas or Islamic Jihad.
Significantly, the law of armed conflict clearly states that "in case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used".

NO MILITARY NECESSITY
Simply put, there is no military necessity justifying the destruction of these homes: it is straightforwardly illegal to target civilian objects.
In fact it is a war crime. Issuing a warning does not change this fact: it remains illegal to attack a home in the absence of military necessity.
The only conclusion we can draw is that these are punitive house demolitions, and it is significant that Israel has resumed its policy of punitive house demolitions in the West Bank in recent weeks.
This is why we are forced to conclude that Israel has revitalised the Dahiya doctrine, and refined it for use in Gaza.
If the objective is to cause terror it is working. The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. These homes that are targeted are not isolated. They are in the middle of densely populated residential areas. Even if.one home is targeted, many others will inevitably be affected. This is why the rate of civilian casualties is so high.
The reason is simple: you cannot drop a one-tonne bomb in a residential area without causing catastrophic damage to any civilians or civilian objects nearby.
In the face of this reality the civilians of Gaza are left without protection. We want to be treated as equals. We want our rights to be respected and protected. We ask that international law be applied equally to Israel and Palestine, to Israelis and Palestinians. The rule of international law must be respected, and all those responsible for violations must be held to account. We demand the rule of law.
Raji Sourani is director of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights in Gaza. http://www, pchrgaza.org/porta L/en/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:05 AM

The author of this piece addresses some of your questions Keith and comes up with the correct answer:

'We can say that there is a principle worth fighting and dying for: Civilians cannot be used to make just wars impossible and morality will not be used as a tool to disarm. And once we have that principle, the proportionality calculation changes. The deaths of innocents are not simply outweighed by Israelis' right to live without daily rockets and terrorists tunneling into a kibbutz playground; but by the defense of a world in which terrorists cannot use morality to achieve victory over those who try to fight morally. It is the protection of that world, one in which moral soldiers still have a fighting chance, that justifies Israel's operations against Hamas today. And it is that greater cause that decisively outweighs the terrible toll in innocent life.'

New Republic

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:56 AM

"We're officially through the looking glass here with rockets and United Nations Relief and Works Agency schools in Gaza. For the second time in a week, the United Nations agency disclosed that rockets were discovered in one of their vacant schools. From the U.N.R.W.A. statement:

Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets.

This time, though, it was a little bit different. The rockets were being stored in a facility within close proximity of roughly 3,000 displaced Palestinians.

The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons.
If you're looking to confirm the oft-repeated Israeli narrative that Hamas and terrorist groups in Gaza endanger Gazans by hiding weapons among the civilian population, then this episode is your smoking missile. Throw in a second incident involving a United Nations agency that is criticized by Israel for its seeming bias and you've got absurdity that would make Samuel Beckett blush.

As the Israeli Foreign Ministry told The Times of Israel:

How many more schools will have to be abused by Hamas missile squads before the international community will intervene. How many times can it turn its head the other way and pretend that it just doesn't see?"

As we noted yesterday, U.N.R.W.A. came under fire last week not only after rockets were discovered in a vacant school, but also as its critics accused the agency of turning the rockets over to "local authorities," which in Hamas-run Gaza, could mean the rockets went right back into circulation."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:09 AM

If you don't read what I put Michael, stop reading it then. It isn't aimed at you anyway. it is about getting people to see reason and to be honest, you have your own little la la land to begin with, and secondly, it isn't worth it as you can be rather nasty at times.

What the fuck my service to the community has to do with anything in this thread is beyond me, unless you are doing a character assassination. I haven't "worked" for over 11 years now, and when I did, visits to Israel and Palestine were frequent diary dates, hence my interest in this awful dog fight between two sets of terrorists.

Keith has shown his true colours on this thread too, and it ain't nice. It appears I have met him. Can't remember but I am sure he didn't come over as odious as he does on these threads. I remember those I wish to avoid in the future. You can't come out with what he does and not expect people to question the person behind such awful things. It's a bit like that other bigot Akenaton earlier today talking about brotherhood and inclusiveness, but not for gay men as they spread disease.

Mudcat certainly seems to be bait for internet weirdos....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM

Another aspect of the war to be ignored - FRim this morning's Irish Times:

OFFENSIVE SPARKS CHAIN REACTION AMONG ISRAELI ARABS IN THE GALILEE.
In Haifa

Current violence has turned spotlight on to Israel's largest minority.
Madj Kayyal - self-confident, purposeful, brimming with energy - has the air of a man who feels he's part of something big.
Over coffee on a hot summer's morning in Haifa, in northern Israel, the 23-year-old holds forth enthusiastically about how his generation has turned its back on political par¬ties, with their hierarchies and compromises, and fashioned a newer, more fluid form of political activism dominated by smaller networks linked by social media,
"There is a big change happening," he says. "There are internal changes in Arab society and the political movement here, and in the way people are organising."
Kayyal's cause is that of Palestinians in Israel. Comprising more than 20 per cent of the Israeli population, Arabs are the Jewish state's largest minority and their position goes to the heart of some of the country's biggest social debates. But, according to Kayyal, the younger generation haven't merely embraced new ways of doing politics. They also want more than their parents did.
"In the 1990s it was a revolutionary thing to say 'I am Palestinian' or hold the Palestinian flag. It was a big issue to declare your identity," he says. "The attitude now is to put identity into action. In the 1990s, the action was to declare solidarity - to say, 'We are Palestinian and we support Gaza.' In 2014, the youth movement doesn't say, 'We want to declare our anger.' It says, 'We want to change the law.' And how are we going to do that? By taking to the streets."
The descendants of 160,000 Palestinian Arabs who remained on their land when Israel was established in 1948, the Arabs in Israel have been under the spotlight in recent weeks as the conflict in Gaza has escalated into the deadliest confrontation here in a decade.
It was not in the West Bank but in the Arab towns of the Galilee, in the north of Israel, that some of the biggest demonstrations broke out earlier this month after a 16-year-old boy, Muhammad Abu Khdeir, was abducted and killed near Jerusalem in what the Israeli authorities say was a racist revenge at¬tack following the killing of three Jewish teenagers.

STREET PROTESTS
Those incidents were part of the sequence of events that spiralled into the Gaza war. And as battles have raged in Gaza, the Arab communities of northern Israel have continued to take to the streets. On Monday hundreds of protesters clashed with police in Nazareth, Israel's largest Arab city, during a 3,000-strong protest against the military strikes on Gaza.
Israel's Arab minority, large¬ly concentrated in the towns and cities of the Galilee, occupies an ambiguous space in the country's political and social map. They have Israeli pass¬ports, attend Israeli schools and universities and vote in Israeli elections. According to prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu, they enjoy full civil rights.
Yet this is only part of the story. Half of families below the poverty line in Israel are Arab, even though the Arab community accounts for just one fifth of the population. Two-thirds of the children defined as suffering from malnutrition in 2010 in Israel were Palestinians. Schools are segregated.
A number of Arab politicians are members of the Knesset but even the Israeli foreign ministry, on its website, observes that the Arab community is "a politically peripheral group in a highly centralised state", an Ar¬abic-speaking minority in a He¬brew-speaking state, and "essentially non-assimilating".
Since Israel's establishment in 1948, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory military service out of consideration for their family, religious and cultural affiliations with the Arab world "as well as concern over possible dual loyalties", as the ministry puts it. There are just 2,200 Muslims in Israel's security services, which includes the police and prison staff.
As individuals, many Palestinians have achieved success in the Jewish state as judges, politicians, doctors, writers, broadcasters and academics. The number in the civil service is growing. Yet, within the com¬munity, there is deep-seated anger about harassment and discrimination, and what is seen as an attempt in recent years to amend the laws to weaken their rights.
Grievances include a law of loyalty which requires citizens to express full recognition of Israel as a Jewish and Zionist state; the right of communities in Jewish suburbia not to accept Palestinians as residents; and the right of the state to discriminate by law against Arabs in the privatisation of lands.
"[Foreign minister] Avigdor Lieberman's election slogan was that the problem is not the West Bank and the settlements, the problem is the Palestinians inside Israel," says Hassan Jaba-reen, director of Adalah, a Haifa-based legal centre.

INFERIOR STATUS
"Emphasising the Jewish character of the Israeli state is main¬ly targeting the citizenship status of the Palestinians in Israel, giving them secondary and inferior status and portraying their existence as a problem."
The killing of Muhammad Abu Khdeir was the "trigger" for protests in the Galilee, says Mohammed Zeidan of the Arab Association for Human Rights in Nazareth, but their deeper cause was a sense of anger after years of discrimination and an increasingly hostile climate -compounded by a sense that the peace process had been buried and the international community had lost interest.
In Haifa, a relatively prosperous port to wn with a mixed population, social integration is "non-existent", says Nadim Nashif, who runs Baladna, an educational organisation for young Palestinians in the town.
Jews and Arabs work along¬side each other, they buy and sell to each other, but mixed marriages are rare and the communities live in different areas, maintaining merely "the minimum [contact] needed in order to have some kind of normality".. In Nazareth, about an] hour's drive from Haifa, this division is visible. There are two cities: crowded and run-down old Nazareth, where the Arab majority lives, and Nazareth II-lit, or upper Nazareth, a hilltop development where the Jewish population (and increasing numbers of well-to-do Arabs) can enjoy landscaped public spaces, low crime and a fancy new shopping centre.
When standing for election last year, the mayor of Nazareth Illit said he would "rather cut off my right arm" than build an Arab school in the district.

'GLASSWALL'
"You think we are living together," Zeidan says, sitting in his office on a bustling shopping street in lower Nazareth. "But if you look closely, you will see that there is a glass wall that separates the two communities."
There's not much enthusiasm for the two-state solution in the Galilee, where the benefit to Palestinians could be relative¬ly limited. The problem, Nashif argues, is the idea of a state built explicitly for one group.
"If tomorrow a Jewish per¬son from New York takes a plane and comes here, he has much more rights than I do," he said. "On the other hand, it's also time for Palestinians to recognise that there are Jewish people here and they probably will stay here, so you cannot have a Palestinian state unless you want to have a tiny space in the West Bank."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

By mid-day Wednesday, the Palestinian death toll stood at 657, most of them civilians.

Two Israeli civilians have also died in the 15-day fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

Not enough dead Jews to make you happy Schmeg? You want to know the reason for those numbers?

Israel uses its missiles to protect citizens, whereas Hamas uses citizens to protect missiles.

There you have it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:02 AM

Musket, I sense a campaign of lies based on the false premise that we have a mutual aquantance and may have met.
If that is your plan I call you on it now.
You are a liar and can not substantiate this latest lie any more than previous lies.

Jim, that was not a "report" it was "Msyi -Soufan Opinion"

We agree that Palestinians and Israelis have a right to self defence.
We agree that the rocket attacks are unacceptable.
We agree that revenge is unacceptable.
Is any action against the rockets acceptable, or does the illegal siting deprive Israel of that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:11 AM

Israel uses its missiles to protect citizens

Jeez, Boo - then they're pretty inept with the shitty job they're doing!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:17 AM

No, there has never been such an effective anti-missile system.
Some always get through though.