BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:11 PM

"War has suposed legitimate targets."

So you agreed with some of what the IRA did...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:11 PM

Hey, GUEST: Which do you hate more, Paddies or Pakis? Just curious...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:12 PM

There is no answer is there that you care to admit to?

Because a Saturday afternoon in a suburban shopping centre full of Saturday afternoon shoppers, isn't a really good advert for your chosen brand of murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:13 PM

Brazilians aren't high up on his list, anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:14 PM

Tir I can understand why military and security personnel were targetted by the IRA. I don't have the blinkers on quite firmly enough to attribute all their actions as justifiable.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:15 PM

Neither is pumping 5 bullets into a total innocent in front of Commuters on a Friday Morning

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:17 PM

I don't have the blinkers on quite firmly enough to attribute all their actions as justifiable

What makes you think I do.

You do accept that the British Security Forces sacrificed their own citizens as a PR stunt, though, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:20 PM

Because, Guest, they have, and they might not be averse to doing it in the future

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:21 PM

I still am waiting for you Tir to tell us the reasoning behind targetting a shopping centre on the day before Mother's Day?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:22 PM

GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:11 PM Don't go on about our volunteers killing children, your servicemen were a good hand at it. And before you go on about being Irish living in limeland, your a brit. There were aborted operations, there were poorly planned operations and there were targets selected that should never have been hit.And that has never been denied. I think you would need to be on the receiving end of the news brought to a family that the police found an address on someone, watched the house followed the first person that came out of it and wacked him. Would you be as understanding ? And before you start, yes I have been given such news, and the word sorry meant very little to us. If you left the island as you have said, keep your opinions of us to your circle of friends on that side of the water. And if you want to dig out failed operations by the Provisionals, don't stop there research those of your countrymen. This thread is not about the movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:24 PM

Read my post of 04:09 PM

What about the PR stunts I was talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:29 PM

Cue the big gun as tir fails miserably. If you wish to take the moral high ground and criticise failed operations, make sure you are not just as guilty.

Point made and case closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:31 PM

Sorry GUEST, like many we see Tír Eoghain made a little boy out of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:32 PM

I never killed anyone, Guest.

What has you hidden away in England, anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:35 PM

Mustn't like buying drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:37 PM

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:54 PM

It's uncanny, though, that whenever a suicide bomb goes off in London, and some poor sod gets blown away by trigger happy cops, the IRA are called into the equation.

Guest has been living there for so long, he's developing that same sense of denial we all know and find so peculiar (if it wasn't so pathetic, that is)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Grab
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 05:18 PM

What I do question is the shoot to kill policy.

For those who are unaware, there is *always* a shoot-to-kill policy in the police.

Lest people start jumping up and down, let me make this clearer. If an armed policemen believes that a suspect has a weapon and will use that weapon to kill people, he can attempt to arrest the suspect. If the suspect shows signs of fighting back or trying to get away, the policemen is *expected* to shoot them. Whether the suspect survives after that point is immaterial. And this isn't a nice convenient shooting range - you can't hit a running man in the legs, and the suspect will typically be standing in front of a bunch of people so missing isn't an option. Result - aim for the body.

Will they be reprimanded? It really depends on the evidence they had that this guy was a bomber. If they had good reason to believe he was (even though he clearly wasn't) then no, they won't be reprimanded. If they were basing this on totally flimsy evidence, then they're in deep shit.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Rumncoke
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 06:58 PM

Interesting that because the dead man comes from Brazil he is assumed to be 'swarthy'- the images of him shown on TV show him as quite light skinned.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:07 PM

Lepus Rex and others insist on throwing the word "murder" around, which is either an illegitimate attempt to prejudice the discussion or an expression of ignorance of what the word means.

"Murder" has a specific meaning.

A death is not murder.

A death of an innocent person does not make murder.

A violent death of an innocent person at another person's hands doesn't constitute murder.

A violent death of an innocent person at a policeman's hands does not reach the standard for murder.

"Murder" is a legal term, and can only be assigned if certain criteria are met. Of course there must be the death, and it must be at another person's hands, and the death must be intentional. All those things are clearly here. But to be "murder" there must be the intention to violate the law or at the very least the intent to do wrong.

Whether the policy is a wrong policy is something else, but establishment of that policy (however wrong it might be) doesn't constitute murder.

It appears to me that the MOST that might be said against this killing is manslaughter, and I'm personally doubtful of that, given that the policeman was presumably acting in accordance with his duty as he was trained and instructed.

But the fact is that none of us knows the detailed set of facts that are needed in order to determine degree of blame, or where it may fall.

Those who rush to shout "murder!" or "cold blood!" at this point are clearly indulging their prejudices. When I say "prejudices" I mean just what the word means: applying judgment before the facts can be submitted--in all likelihood, given the content and tone of the inflammatory statements in this thread, prejudices of long standing against the police and/or government in general and/or the government of the UK in particular.

It's possible the policemen involved were wrong in not identifying themselves to the fleeing person as police. It's possible (though not in my opinion likely) that they did not even think the guy had a bomb, and killed him nevertheless in the heat of a chase and struggle with someone they had (wrongly, yes) identified as a terrorist. Those things (and perhaps some others), if they come out, would make them culpable. That last one, if established, I suppose could justify the word "murder", but until we know more facts everybody ought to ratchet down the emotional and propagandistic tone on this.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:23 PM

Definition of MURDER

"the crime of intentionally killing a person"

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:07 PM

That's quite a cunning definition, because it reads as if it's saying the criminality resides in the killing, so that, if it's killing than it's criminal; but in fact it implies more or less the reverse - that in order to count as murder the killing has to be criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:09 PM

mur·der   n. 1. The unlawful killing of one human being by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:10 PM

The criminality of the act resides in the 'crime', Kevin.
That's the way I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:22 PM

Just in case we're in danger of forgetting there's a young man lying in a morgue somewhere who was totally innocnet of anything to do with terrorism, here is a piece from the Monday Guardian, with a photo of Jean Charles de Menezes with friends.

"He rang me ... saying that he would be a little late because the tube lines weren't working properly," said Gesio de Avila, a builder and close friend who Mr De Menezes had been due to meet that morning for the fire alarm job. "I said, 'OK, as soon as you get to Kilburn, call me.' That was the last conversation I had with him..."

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:27 PM

I wonder about what is going through the minds of the police officers who did the shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:07 PM

Just in case we're in danger of forgetting there's a young man lying in a morgue somewhere who was totally innocnet of anything to do with terrorism,

That may be the most patronising contribution to date.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:30 PM

Well maybe for you, but judging by the contributions of some of the posters on this forum, it may just be a timely reminder of what this thread is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:52 PM

And that's the second.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:58 PM

A bit of patronising never hurt anyone.

If it does any good, I'm all for it.

Beats the shit out of justifying pumping a seriously scared guy full of lead

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:02 PM

Its cold where he is....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:08 PM

Tir Chonaill said, in part:

Beats the shit out of justifying pumping a seriously scared guy full of lead

Here again, a missing of the point or an attempt to fog up the discussion. Whether he was seriously scared or not (and I don't doubt for a minute that he was) has nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of the shooting, or the criminality or lack thereof on the part of the policeman involved.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:13 PM

Indeed, Dave.

Tiocfaidh gave the definition a little more clearly than you did, a few posts back, so I'm under no illusions.

Have you not noticed that there are those who have more or less repeated what the news media has said..., in the same chronological sequence; from 'terrorist', to 'innocent'

There is damage limitation being posted on this thread by a number of posters.

You are concentrating on the wrong thing

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:19 PM

Ok, I recant...

Beats the shit out of justifying pumping a guy full of lead

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:20 PM

Hi there!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:22 PM

They don't like you here, Ciaran

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:26 PM

Perception, dear boy....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:29 PM

If the fellow had indeed been carrying explosives on his person and the cops had NOt taken the shots, they would be getting the gears for being recaltricent in their response/duty. One thing I do know: I am glad it was not my call. However, the place to stop the guy was in an open area. Whay did they wait until he could bolt into a crowded place?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:41 PM

A. Maybe they figured while he was running he couldn't get the wires together.
B. Maybe in the chase they couldn't be sure to get a head shot.
C. Maybe they weren't close enough to him to have satisfied themselves that he had a bomb on his body.

Maybe, maybe, maybe.... As I keep saying, we don't know the facts.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:45 PM

As in all wars .... it's the innocent that pay the biggest price.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:51 PM

and why five shots in the back of the head?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:55 PM

To be sure, to be sure, to be sure, to be sure, to be sure...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:55 PM

With no offense, it's pretty academic after the first one.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:04 PM

Scholarly, some would say

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:48 PM

From the Financial Times:

"A police source said: "The e-mail reminded armed officers they could shoot to the head if the criteria for suspecting a suicide bomber was fulfilled. It [the action] had to be based on intelligence."

Acpo said details of such tactics remained secret "for operational reasons". "The tactics are intended to be used on an intelligence-led basis. They are not implemented at random but as a result of intelligence and backed up by senior decision-making."

So I guess this shooting was, once again, faulty intelligence that was backed up by a senior decision maker.

I'm still curious as to how the cop on the beat interprets this and also if the British publice were warned.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:52 PM

Some English journalist infiltrated the Thames Valley (I'm almost certain) Police Force, some time back and found rascism a major problem.

I would have said 'major, major, problem', but Dave might accuse me of trying to fog the issue.

What was that journalist's name again, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:01 AM

Sorry... it was The Met

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:05 AM

I pasted the wrong link in there..., maybe someone else more knowledgeable than myself could remember the programme I was talking about...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:07 AM

This is the story to which you refer.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:11 AM

Thank you Peace.

Steven Lawrence!

That name rings a few bells I'm sure....