 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: DougR Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:27 PM Carol; I assume you're writing that you had addressed all of the lies I pointed out that Obama said in your post of 5:40PM December 23rd. If simply saying "false" to what I posted is your idea of replying so be it. So I'll approach it in a different way. Did Obama make it possible on CSpan for Americans to watch the debate on health care reform? Did Obama refuse to sign the so-called stimulus bill because it was laden with pork? Did Obama refuse to sign the recent Budget bill because it was laden with pork? A new one: Did Obama have bills under consideration (any bills not just health care reform) posted on the Internet several days before they were voted on so that all interested parties could read them as he said he would doing during the campaign? Will citizens earning less than $250,000 have their taxes increased if either the House or Senate bill or the compromise of the two becomes law? If either bill or the compromise of the two becomes law will I be able to continue using Medicare Advantage? Name one effort Obama made to include Republicans in Health Care Reform discussions. It is common knowledge to anyone who stays abreast of the real news that the bills being considered were drafted behind closed doors with no Republicans allowed in the room. The one exception was the Finance Committee chaired by Max Bacus and one Republican on the committee, Olympia Snow, did vote with the Democrats. She did not vote for the bill when it came before the Senate nor did any other Republican (Thank God!). DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: GUEST,beardedbruce Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:32 PM "But even those Republicans who were initially inclined to do that -- and there were at least a handful of them -- were turned away by the White House and the Senate Democratic leaders, who never lifted their sights much beyond the Democratic ranks. Forced to bargain for every vote among the 60 in his caucus, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid did what he usually does: He reduced the negotiations to his own level of transactional morality. Incapable of summoning his colleagues to statesmanship, he made the deals look as crass and parochial as many of them were -- encasing a historic achievement in a wrapping of payoff and patronage. " |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: artbrooks Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:48 PM Does any rational individual (which clearly excludes one or two posters on this thread) really think that the President controls what Congress does? Does anyone really think that he has (or should have) the power to require Congress to delay votes on bills or amendments? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Lox Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:00 PM The criticism over here in the UK of Obama iis that he lacks backbone, because he panders too much to the repubs and misguidedly indulges the idea that they can be persuaded to engage in politics in a mature way. Those who disagree tend to say that he is in fact courageous for not employing their tactics pushing ahead without listening or thinking. The idea that he hasn't listened to the repubs is one from la la land. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Ebbie Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:01 PM I would say 'don't confuse him' but upon further reflection I remember: concrete doesn't absorb nutrition. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: GUEST,beardedbruce Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:24 PM Sorry, I was quoting from a liberal collumnist. I guess that is a sure way to get lied to. "Washington Post A health-care victory that stinks By David S. Broder Thursday, December 24, 2009 " |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: CarolC Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:26 PM DougR, you and beardedbruce must have both gotten your copy pastes from the same purveyors of lies. Here are the accusations you both made, followed by beardedbruce's response to them. My responses follow his. Don't you even read your posts before you post them?... "If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!" NOT according to either of the bills. FALSE already Neither bill has been passed into law, and Obama hasn't signed a health care reform law yet, so you're the one who is lying in this instance. "Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see." FALSE already This one is partially true (and so therefore, only partially false). "If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!" FALSE already Since neither bill has been passed into law, and we don't know what the final bill will look like, and since Obama hasn't signed any health care reform law yet, you're the one who is lying in this instance as well. "I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!" FALSE already You're the one who is lying in this instance as well, since one of the problems that many of us have with the current bills before both houses is that Obama went much too far in trying to have a bipartisan bill. He gave away much of what his base wanted in order to court Republican votes. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: kendall Date: 25 Dec 09 - 12:46 AM Doug, there is a stretch of highway in South Portland that was 4 lanes. It is now 6 lanes, and there is a sound barrier that locals have been screaming for these past 40 years. The stimulus hasn't worked? Tell that to the families of the operators and the construction supply companies that have been working all summer and are now near the end. Our infrastructure is falling apart while we invade countries that did not attack us. 9/11 was a criminal act and should have been dealt with that way. You right wingers like to spout off about "Pork" but let's have some specifics. What are you on about? ..while your own house decays are you spending your days shingling the rum sellers roof... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: kendall Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:34 AM I guess he smelled the trap. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Stringsinger Date: 25 Dec 09 - 11:13 AM This discussion is going nowhere. Obama has made some serious mistakes. He blew off Copenhagen, bailed out banks, pharma and insurance with no meaningful restrictions. He is conducting two futile occupations and killing innocent civilians in the Mid-East. The Grand Old Obstructionist Party has nothing to say because they did the same and worse under Bush. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: DougR Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:03 PM Kendall: If the highway was in such bad shape, why didn't the state of Maine do something about it? Why wait forty years for the feds to come to the rescue? And the fact that the so-called stimulus bill was a failure is not something I dreamed up, otherwise our economy would not still be in such a mess and our unemployed would be lower than 10%. I will remind you that Obama promised that if the "stimulus" bill was passed, unemployment would not exceed 8%. Carol: it is impossible to debate you rationally. Anyone with half a brain KNOWS that currently there is no signed law! You use this as evidence that I or BB are lying. I'm confident that BB KNOWS that the differences in the senate and house bills have to be resolved in conference. However, this has nothing what-so-ever to do with Obama's lying during the campaign. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Greg F. Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:11 PM Carol: I'm beginning to believe that you wouldn't recognize a "fact" if one jumped up and smacked you in the face! Now that has got to be one of the more hilarious - or disgusting, depending upon your point of view - examples of projection in the entire history of the human race. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:32 PM Yes, well...but if a chimpanzee jumps up and smacks you in the face....THEN, my good man, you will have NO doubt about what is happening. Put a chimp in the White House in 2012. Vote for Chongo. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: artbrooks Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:38 PM PolitiFact looked at this topic the other day, and this is part of what they have to say: We have to say that the public option was not a very prominent part of Obama's platform. ... We were able to find the proposal pretty quickly after looking in Obama's campaign literature, but he didn't discuss it very much during the campaign. That's true for both the general election and the Democratic primary. If you look for mentions of the public option in Obama's speeches or comments to voters, you'll find very few. In fact, Obama gave a major address in Iowa on May 29, 2007, outlining his health care plan in considerable detail. There's not one mention of the public option in his speech. ... Obama's new claim is, "I didn't campaign on a public option." We will stipulate that it was not a particularly prominent part of his overall platform for health care. But we find that the public option was part of Obama's campaign materials, and that counts. So we rate his statement Barely True. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: CarolC Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:17 PM Carol: it is impossible to debate you rationally. It wouldn't be impossible if you were rational. Anyone with half a brain KNOWS that currently there is no signed law! You use this as evidence that I or BB are lying. I'm confident that BB KNOWS that the differences in the senate and house bills have to be resolved in conference. So if that's the case, how can you make the accusation that people have had to give up their current health care because of Obama or that their taxes have been raised because of health care reform? If you were rational, you would know that you can't because these accusations are lies. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Peter T. Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:47 PM Oh great, so apart from lying, Obama turns out to be a lying weasel. A real role model. I am still waiting for a right-wing answer to the question: how do you propose to bring reasonable health care to every American? So far as I have read, there is no answer. The business-as-usual approach is a disaster. Anyone who has read the ridiculous Republican plan (made up for pr reasons) knows that it is a sham. So the only really available answer is: we don't care, we already have health care, we are rich. Is this an ethical position? The mystery is why Obama doesn't seem to want to pin this tail on the elephant. He lets the right wing attack what he does, and never really attacks back. He says a few unkind things about the insurance industry, but where is the full-throated assault on the heartless failure of the Republican political universe to cope with these huge challenges? In some ways, Obama -- contrary to the original image -- may be a great politician behind closed doors, but a complete loss as a street politician. Where's Huey Long? How this is supposed to get him a super-majority in the fall elections coming up is a mystery. Peter T. yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Stringsinger Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:50 PM BB you can't sit around and wait for Bush or Obama to fulfill their promises. It's not up to them. It's up to us. We empower them unnecessarily. Carol, remember they said that Obama couldn't get elected because he was black. Kucinich could be president but not if we enable negative opinions about him. Almost every president of the US has "lied" at one time another. It's part of the job description given the euphemism "plausible deniability". When people lose enough jobs, have to pay unduly high insurance premiums, realize that their tax dollars are going toward a futile occupation in the Mid-east, get soaked for prescription drugs and see who are proactive and reactive in politics, then something important for the country can get done. So what if Obama, Bush et. al are "lying"? Let's hold their feet to the fire and finally "speak truth to power". Now Chomsky maintains that talking is not enough. To speak today must mean to act. In the meantime, to concentrate on who is lying or telling the truth is beating a dead horse. There is a culture war going on this country today. Until it is resolved, there will continue to be lies, wars, invective and nothing constructive happening. What's needed today is honest dialogue, not some rant about who is lying or not. I keep saying why am I wasting my time talking about things here on Mudcat? It's because I believe there are some intelligent people here worthy of opening up significant dialogue. We have common interests such as seeing our tax dollars well spent, not being soaked by corporate greed and being able to think for ourselves. We don't want lives spent in futile wars. We want to be able to have everyone enjoy the prosperity of a country built on an idealism that includes "the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". Stop kvetching about what politicians are saying and get active. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Bobert Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:21 PM Good point, lox... The old sayin' "Think globally, act locally" comes to mind here... This is where real change occurs... It'a a matter of framing local issues in a responsible and visionary manner so that other folks will see for themselves what puttting that new crosswalk in downtown does for pedesrian safety, or supporting this or that bond referendum that will enhance one's community... Lotta people vote against bonf referendumd because they have been conditioned to think of them as simply tax hikes... When people know that certain earmarked taxes go for this or that they are more inclined to think community first, me second... It's all about progressives gettin' ahead of the local issues... What has occured with suburban voters is just that... The Repubs used to count on suburbia for alot of votes... Then suburbia found itself under attack by developers and corpoartion interested in only making money and leaving suburbia with a whole lot more folks and strained services... That's when then progressives and Dems started winning Boards of Supervisors all accross the country with smart-growth thinking... Yeah, some Repubs fooled the voters one time with "Smart Growth" slogans but then proceeeded to allow business as usual and they were seen for what they were... The bottom line is that something like health care reform doesn't just happen... It happens because people change their minds about what is best for them, be it a new school, a cross walk or health care reform... The Dems seem to be outpunching the Repubs at all levels of governemnt because the Repubs just won't get it into their heads that business-as-usual isn't what people, in general, want... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: DougR Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:58 PM Well the polls show, Bobert, that the majority of the people don't want either the House or the Senate health care reform bills! (Of course I'm prepared for your reply ..."I don't believe the polls!) All I have to say to that, is keep thinking that way. 2010 should be a good year for conservatives. Carol: Sigh. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: GUEST,Kendall Date: 25 Dec 09 - 05:23 PM Doug, the answer is quite simple, it is a FEDERAL HIGHWAY, part of the interstate system that Eisenhower started. So, specifics on the pork? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Bobert Date: 25 Dec 09 - 05:44 PM Those polls are not a referendum on health care reform, Dougie, but how folks feel about our political process, which IMO, is so messed up that it is a wonder the Dems got reform thru at all... I mean, people just get worn out by the Repub's obstructionists tactics, the town hall/tea partiers, the 60 votes needed to pass reform and a mirade of other problems associated with the system... Heck, Obama could find a cure for cancer but if he had to get it thru Congress before it coud be used to save lives then I'd be willing to bet that what we would see is something like we have just seen... Face it, our system of democracy is broken... 60 votes, my butt!!! That is minority rule... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: artbrooks Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:03 PM Yes, many people don't care for the bills as they are now. Some think they go too far, and some think they don't go far enough. Many people, including just about everyone in the progressive wing of the Democratic Party, are terribly disappointed that it seems there will be no public option. Many are also very disappointed in what is clearly blatant favoritism for Nebraska in order to get Sen. Nelson's vote (the section of the bill that is supposedly keyed toward Florida and the other Sen Nelson also impacts several other states). Does the majority want no change? Absolutely not. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Bobert Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:18 PM Again, the reason that Sen. Ben Nelson got the $100M for Medicare is because of the screwed up 60 vote system... I'm sure that Reid would have been more than happy to tell Nelson to stick his extortion where the sun don't shine... But because we esentially have minority rule that didn't happen... I would love to see the Dems get into conference and restore the public option and the lowering of age for Medicare and use "reconciliation" which would take longer but only need 51 votes... I think the American people would applaud that and reward the Dems for it in the midterms and the '12 election, as well... I mean, using the fillibuster on judges seems to be an old Demopublican sport... Who cares??? This reform is a biggie and deserves better than minority rule and petty partisan game playin'... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: robomatic Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM Obama is performing pretty much as well as I'd hoped, and he's doing the job I hired him for. I don't think the title of this thread is justified by the facts. As for health care, the loss of the public option is significant but not determinative. Laws and sausages are more respectable when one has not seen them in the making. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:34 PM How about a Christmas Truce... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: CarolC Date: 26 Dec 09 - 12:18 AM Ok, DougR, I'll play your little game. Whose taxes have been raised because of health care reform? Who has lost the health care they had because of health care reform? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Bobert Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:17 AM You'll have to wait until Rush tells Dougie what to say, Carol... Not that whatever Rush puts out will have anything to do with reality but that seems to be the way it is... The "they will increase your taxes" mantra that the Repubs have used going back decades is threadbare and dated but Rush seems to be able to spice it up... The P-Vine was talkin' to here middle son last night... He lives in Georgia now but grew up in Charlotte and has been a Rush-ite going back forever... He says that the Dems want to put everyone in jail for not buying health insurance... See??? That's plays real well with people who tend to be more emotional and less enlightened... That would be this son, in particular... But back to the question... Yeah, Dougie, maybe you'd like to elaborate on whoes taxes are going to be increased and by how much... (BTW, given that tannin' booths are *known* to cause skin cancer I have no problem putting a surcharge on tannin' booths becuase we're going to end up paying for the treatment for skin cancers down the road...) Personally, I wouldn't mind seein' surcharges on Big Macs, Deep fried foods and sugar products, as well... These supposed foods are disease carriers and we'll end up paying for treatin' folks with diabetes, heart desease, etc down the road as well... (But, Boberdz... Wouldn't that be a tax, as well???) Yeah, it would and long overdue, I might add... (But, boberdz... Wouldn't taxing bad foods be targeting the South and Midwest...) Well, yes indeed it would... That where diabetes and heart desease is most prevailent... Hey, ain't no one holding a gun to these folks making them eat foods that are bad for them... (But, Boberdz... They don't know any better...) Okay, that might be the case... I don't care... Might of fact, put another $1.00 a pack tax on cigarettes while yer at it.... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: DougR Date: 26 Dec 09 - 02:04 PM Kendall: For information on the "Pork" in the "stimulus" bill you can simply Google Stimulus Bill Pork or if you prefer, simply enter: http://online.ws/com/article/SB123310466514522309.html DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: artbrooks Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:28 PM Go ahead - gets you a picture of a good looking lady in a blue bikini. Oh yeah...if you link to http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123310466514522309.html instead you get an impartial article from the Wall Street Journal. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Bill D Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:50 PM Impartial? *giggle* Wall Street Journal? Oh yeah, I forgot.... Rupert Murdoch's impartial Wall Street Journal. Got it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: kendall Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:21 PM Doug, I didn't see anything that I would call PORK in that bill. What did you see? The purpose of the bill was to get the money circulating again. The bankers are doing just what they did in the 30s stopping the circulation of money and fighting the president who was/ is trying to get things rolling again. They want things to be just as bad in 2010 as they are now so they can regain control and they will do whatever is necessary to see that Obama fails. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Bobert Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:48 PM Ain't that like unAmerican, Capt'n??? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:37 AM A little off topic, but I just got this E-Mail.... Pinocchio, Snow White, and Superman are out for a stroll in town one day. As they walk, they come across a sign: "Beauty contest for the most beautiful woman in the world." "I am entering!" said Snow White. After half an hour she comes out and they ask her, "Well, how'd you do?" " First Place !," said Snow White. They continue walking and they see a sign: "Contest for the strongest man in the world." "I'm entering," says Superman.. After half an hour, he returns and they ask him, "How did you make out?" " First Place ," answers Superman. "Did you ever doubt?" They continue walking when they see a sign: "Contest! Who is the greatest liar in the world?" "I'm entering," says Pinocchio. After half an hour he returns with tears in his eyes. "What happened?" they asked. "Who the hell is Nancy Pelosi?" asked Pinocchio. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: kendall Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:56 AM The old jokes are still funny. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:59 AM Thanks, kendall. Glad to see you smile! Okay, back to the 'Tales of Obama' |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Greg F. Date: 27 Dec 09 - 12:18 PM I thought the punchline was "Who the hell is (BuShite hate radio jock of your choice)" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:30 PM Unless I have mis-counted, CC leads BB 22 to 19 with all others far back in the pack. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: CarolC Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:05 PM What are you counting, Q? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: CarolC Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:09 PM Ah... I see. You miscounted. It was 23 to 20 when you posted. But the question I have for you is, what's with the obsession about counting the number of posts? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:35 PM Just curious. The number of times the same thing may be said over and over again ..... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Lox Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:06 PM Q It is important to note that carol has been responding to assertions to BB and also to assertions by Doug R amongst others. I think she is doing a good job of singlehandedly destroying their rhetoric. Other posts, including mine, serve as little more than frivolous uriosities. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:16 PM "uriosities" You woudln't be taking the piss, would you? :-P |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:23 PM ""uriosities" You woudln't be taking the piss, would you? :-P"" Just typo induced serendipity FT....Fun, innit? Don T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: DougR Date: 28 Dec 09 - 12:36 PM Lox: If your definition of "destroying rhetoric" is avoiding answering questions, then I suppose I would have to agree with you. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: CarolC Date: 28 Dec 09 - 05:20 PM DougR, you have avoided my last question. Why is that? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Greg F. Date: 28 Dec 09 - 05:32 PM DougR, you have avoided my last question. Why is that Why do you think, Carol? Douggie can only operate in a fact-free environment. Why folks continue to give this Village Idiot the time of day is beyond understanding. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: robomatic Date: 28 Dec 09 - 08:16 PM why can't we all get along? I once paid a visit to the owner/ operator of the electric powerplant system in Sudden, Alaska. He and his family were an honest group of intelligent borned agains, and I am, trust me, NOT. They took me on a tour of the electric system of Sudden and its sister city, Sudden village, which was an unincorporated area mostly lived in by native Alaskans and not a formal part of the Sudden electric system. Then Harvey had me as a guest for dinner, and put me up on the living room couch. Even after I mentioned at dinner that I was a big fan and defender of "Saint Chuck" (Darwin, that is). And even after tuning in to the Xtian television channel where they were reporting they had a man in Israel specifically to convert Israelis for Jesus, and he woul misrepresent himself to gain their trust, because it was 'for the Lord'. But my hosts were good folks, and I did business with them on behalf of the State of Alaska and I did not regret trusting them, and when their powerplant burned to the ground due to a broken fuel line, they did not regret doing business with the State Of Alaska. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Greg F. Date: 28 Dec 09 - 09:20 PM But my hosts were good folks... I'm curious - what precisely would constitute "bad folks" ? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: Riginslinger Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:32 AM Maybe converting Israelis to Jesus would get them half way to salvation. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying From: artbrooks Date: 29 Dec 09 - 07:24 AM bigot |
