BS: Obama caught in blatant lying

Subject: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:11 PM

It is intriguing that as Obama moves into his second year, his behaviour is becoming more and more bizarre and contradictory (in every area, from the banking crisis to climate change). Today he was caught simply lying straight out. In an interview with the Washington Post, he denied ever having campaigned for a public option in health care. This is a complete lie. For a brief look at the overwhelming evidence:


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/22/818090/-President-Obama:-I-Didnt-Campaign-on-the-Public-Option.-

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:16 PM

I think I found a new quote to push...


"I am not against all health care reform, I am just against dumb health care reform!"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:23 PM

Still waiting for Obama to keep ANY of his promises....





Obama falling short of bill-signing pledge

By Kara Rowland

The White House in recent weeks took a step toward fulfilling one of President Obama's transparency pledges from the campaign by posting a link on its main Web site for Americans to comment on bills he's about to sign into law.

That still didn't help Mr. Obama keep his pledge when he signed two giant spending bills in the past five days.

Both the omnibus and the defense appropriations bills had been posted for just two days when the president signed them -- despite totaling more than $1 trillion in combined discretionary spending and including billions of dollars in earmarks inserted by lawmakers for favored projects.

As he nears the end of his first year in office, Mr. Obama repeatedly has fallen short on his pledge to have all bills Congress sends to him posted and open for comments for at least five days before he decides to sign them.

A Washington Times analysis of data from the Library of Congress found that on 32 of the 117 bills he signed through Tuesday, Mr. Obama didn't wait the full five days after the bill reached his desk to pick up his pen.

In June, realizing they were falling short, White House officials altered their pledge. Spokesman Nick Shapiro told the New York Times that the administration would post a link to the Library of Congress Web site and start the five-day clock "once it is clear that a bill will be coming to the president's desk."

Yet even under those amended terms, the administration is still coming up short. A Cato Institute analysis finds that on 43 of the 117 bills Mr. Obama has signed, the White House didn't even bother to post a link to the bill or allow comments. The administration disputes Cato's numbers.

Mr. Shapiro said at least some of the bills Cato lists were posted for comment but were dropped from the Web site when it was upgraded earlier this year.

Mr. Shapiro declined to comment for this article on how the White House views its performance in meeting the pledge, declined to provide numbers on how often since June it thinks it has met the modified pledge and declined to talk about how many comments it has received or how much influence the comments have on Mr. Obama.

more

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:42 PM

The relationship between the USA and Russia has been transformed under Obama.

This alone is of enormous importance.

I'm sure there are a few Yanks out there who can think of a few other achievements.

On the subject of health care, at least he's achieved something. His opponents would have left things as theey were.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:02 PM

My goodness.... such interesting interpretation of statements.

**Lying** is always a very harsh assertion. I'll bet he didn't mean it like you wish to portray it.

With the impending of passage of ANY bill on health care, opponents are getting really nasty in their complaints.

(ummm... if we are going to discuss lying, let's start with the many serious and documented lies of Bush/Cheney and crew.)

As to health care, let's see how it all goes, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:20 PM

Harsh indeed. Failing to produce what one promises is not a lie. Things change, people change. If he had every intention to do whatever and, for some reason is not able to, that is not a lie.

However, if he knew he was lying at the time that is another bag of rats.

"Change inevitable. Resistance to change is also inevitable."
They have had 100 years to do something about health care since T. Roosevelt proposed it and what have they done? Nothing. Less than nothing, they fight every social piece of legislation from Social Security, to Medicare to now. The party of NO is well named.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:34 PM

Yeah, I hate to say it but I don't remember Obama campaigning on health care with a public option... I wished he had then manybe we wouldn't be facing the current bill which doesnot contain one...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:43 PM

Politics is the art of the possible.
(Forgot source of quotation)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:45 PM

I never thought I'd ever say this.....but be very careful what you wish for.

The National Health Service ...at its inception, a wonderful idea which worked well for decades....and basically it still remains so, it never changed, but WE changed.

The NHS has become a great money trough, and we all have our snouts in it.....Doctors, nurses,consultants,administrators even a large percentage of the public.

Our local Doctor has just come back from a holiday in Venesuala, he said the medical service is magnificent....it works so well because people value it, they remember what things were like under the old regime and they dont try to abuse a service which works to the advantage of all Venesualans..........We have forgotten, or become immune to the needs of others...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:05 PM

It all depends on what is meant by "I didn't campaign".

Obviously, being an intelligent man, he hoped that a public option would form part of the reform package, and said so when he was running for president.

But it seems fairly obvious that over the past year Obama has not been going out all guns blazing campaigning for a public option, but has to a large extent sat on his hands.

.................

As for akenaton's comments about there being greedy people around who disfigure and damage the NHS, that's been true since the beginning ("I stuffed their mouths with gold" said Nye Bevan of the consultants), but it doesn't stop the health service being a pretty good operation.

And greed is not exactly noticeable by its absence in the private sector!!! It is hardly surprising that the attitudes generated there rubs off on people in the public and non-profit sectors.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:15 PM

So everyone wants instant gratification? The past ten years were so fucked up and he is supposed to undo all of the damage in LESS than a year with a recalcitrant body of mostly old, scared, white men?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:21 PM

Yes Mr McGrath...I'm afraid I agree with you 100%

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:31 PM

Another thing we need to keep in mind as we get further into Obama's presidency is that alot of us heard what we wanted to hear even if Obama didn't say it...

I'm guilty, I know...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:37 PM

I tol ya, ya shoulda worked for Hillary.

(Wouldn't have made any difference. The Dems only have 60 not so secure votes in the Senate, so have to tread lightly).
Lieberman, the bouncing ball...., etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:39 PM

You know, in our system the president merely defines & suggests a basic set of goals. The Congress then must create the laws...subject to the presidents final approval - and even a veto can be overridden. Obama no doubt had MUCH input behind the scenes, but he cannot simply delare laws into being as in some countries.

To echo what others have said many times, the Republicans have held power, and had majorities, many times the last 50-75 years, and they never made any serious attempt to provide sweeping health care, and they defeated the attempts the Democrats made with lobby-funded obstructionist campaigns. They had no problem spending untold billions on stupid wars, but spending money on citizens health? naaawwww...

The repetitive cry of **government takeover** rings kind of hollow when the private sector has been so greedy and uncaring. OTHER COUNTRIES make government aided care work, in various ways. Why have we waited so long?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Amos
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:41 PM

Jeeze guys--he's been in office a year, starting out with the deepest hole any President ever handed to his successor and especially a shattered economy.

Furthermore he has worked toward the goals he set.

The art of the possible, as they say. Let's examine where the counter-efforts are coming from and see whether the problem is with the President or not... Hmmm. Who has been fighting against health care reform?

He didn't get where he said he wanted to get to. No doubt.

However, saying he didn't ever campaign on public option is a bit weaselly.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:53 PM

The point is that he NOW states that he did not. A clear case of refusing to deal with reality.


So, when do we hear Amos demanding his impeachment??

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:55 PM

How would a Bush supporter recognize a lie in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 09:30 PM

We just see if it is a liberal speaking, then we know it's a lie...


Next time leave a name instead of hiding like an idiot......

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 09:40 PM

It IS my name, Bruce. And don't go getting nasty with an old friend fer krisake.

Capiche? And for fuck sake, lighten up. I didn't say Bush ever told blatant lies. He told just ordinary ones resulting in the deaths of what, 1 1/2 million people?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 09:42 PM

And another thing. I have been posting as Guest,999 for weeks and weeks. Just because you didn't know is no reason to lose your cool. Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 10:09 PM

Give Obama another year- he can kill more than Bush quite easily, and might very well...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 10:36 PM

What scenario do you have in mind?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 11:25 PM

Which, you mean.

Given his efforts so far, I expect he will start at least one major war. Probably nuclear.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Janie
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 11:31 PM

Hear, Hear, Amos.

Obama is very good at "the art of the possible." It became clear very early that fully realized health care reform that included a bonafide national system was not acheivable. Obama has always indicated he is an advocate of a public option, and has also made it clear that he was not going to insist on it, realistically assessing that insisting on it would likely result in NO health care reform measure at all.

Kevin, I do not perceive him as having sat on his hands at all on the health care issue. Had he and loberal Democrats insisted on a truly national health care plan, enabling legislation would have had the proverbial snowball's chance in hell to have come to fruition. What he has done, rather masterfully, is make sure the administration has not created reactionary resistance so strong that nothing at all would pass Congress. He also tried very hard to get bi-partisan support, and when it became clear that simply was not going to happen, he and liberals in the Senate did what was necessary to gain the votes of conservative Democrats.

I'm not sure what we are going to end up with when the legislation is finally passed, and I am already not happy with it.    But it is a significant step in the right direction, and likely to keep us going in the direction of universal health care.

Our political parties are not analogous to the the Labor and Conservative parties of the UK - in fact- as Peace helped me to understand, what we call political parties are not analogous to the political parties of a parlimentary Democracy.

Our country is very, very deeply divided on any number of issues right now that can not be easily categorized as liberal vs conservative. I don't remember who was being interviewed, but I recently heard some professor of politics on NPR say that over the last 8-10 years, we are more polarized within our country than has occurred since the late 1800's.

The Republican party draws not only conservatives, but also libertarians. The Democrats draw liberals, moderates, and some conservatives, but virtually no libertarians. At least that is what seems to me to be the case. There are many USA fols here who are more politically informed and more politically astute than am I. I'll be interested to read their more informed comments.

What is absolutely clear to me is that the American people, regardless of their social and political philosophies are for the most part very much engaged in emotional thinking right now, and very much into taking positions rather than thinking through what is in their best interests, whether personally or collectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Janie
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 11:53 PM

One day last week Marketplace (on NPR) closed with a quite remarkable quote from a participant at a recent "town hall meeting" some Senator was holding on health care reform. It left my 16 year old son and I howling with laughter (to cover up the tears)....

Government, keep your hands off my Medicare!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: DougR
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 12:23 AM

"If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!"

"Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see."

"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"

"I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"

These are not "exact" quotes because I write them from memory, but they are the gist of what our president promised while campaigning. Which of them did he follow through on?

You may not call it lying, but I have noticed from his many appearances on TV that he has a much longer nose eleven months after taking the oath of office than he did before.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Neil D
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 12:47 AM

I never thought of President Obama as a progressive in the first place and that's not why I voted for him. A true progressive (Dennis Kucinich) could never win the presidency in this country. I voted for him because I believed he would be better than McCain, still do.
   It's the U.S. Senate that has made a dog's lunch out of healthcare reform. This absurd need for a 60% majority to get anything accomplished has turned it into a disfunctional legislative body. That's why Nelson was able to get special dispensation for his state on Medicaid payments and Lieberman was able to get the public option and a 55+ buyin for Medicare stripped from the bill. A single payer system or Medicare for all was never even on the table. True progress never wins out in this country. Now some progressives say that Obama should have been more forceful, and public, with the Senate in lobbying for a robust public option and maybe so. But even if he had, Lieberman et al. may have never fallen in line, causing Obama to look weak and ineffectual. He's too shrewd a politician to take that risk. He's like a poker player holding his hand close to his vest. He's trying maneuver in the minefield of that is 21st century partisan politics. And like I said, he never was a progressive in the first place, just a damn sight better than the alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:40 AM

Obama has consistently downplayed the importance of a public option. He never campaigned on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:51 AM

I should amend my last post. Whenever he would say positive things about a public option, he would then say that while it would be nice, it wasn't critical. Some people may have thought he was promising a public option, but I could tell he was softening us up to accept a health care bill without one.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Janie
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:54 AM

What Carol and Neil said.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:56 AM

DougR, of the promises you've listed how many do we know he won't follow up on?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 07:30 AM

Politics is the art of the possible.
(Forgot source of quotation)

Wasn't it R.A. Butler? (Or possibly Iain MacLeod)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 08:10 AM

"I never thought of President Obama as a progressive... A true progressive (Dennis Kucinich) could never win the presidency in this country."

            While I wouldn't have any trouble voting for Dennis Kucinich, I didn't vote for Obama because I thought he would turn out to be a Move-On.org puppet, due to the way his campaign was financed, and the people he surrounded himself with. So far, I've been pleasantly surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Raptor
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 09:37 AM

Lest see... Obama's guilty of trying to fix the United States healthcare.

Bush put the world into a depression by starting wars that cost billions of dollars and killed thousands of people looking for weapons of mass destruction and Osama bin Ladden, niether of which they will ever find.

Please refer to Katlaughings post it's right on the money!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 12:24 PM

BB, where do you expect Obama's next war to be? Iran? Or Pakistan? Just wondering what your prediction might be. Those 2 appear more likely to me than any other possibilities if one is to pick hypotheticals.

Neil is quite correct that a true progressive (such as Dennis Kucinich) cannot win the presidency in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:12 PM

Notice the air attack on a site in Yeman? I THINK it will be Iran, but it might well be Somalia or Yeman- all in search of Al-Quida.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:36 PM

"Some people may have thought he was promising a public option,"

Well, if liberals can take the statement " IF we don't stop Saddam's nuclear program he will have WMD in the future." and read it as IRAQ HAS NUKES NOW!!!, then you have to forgive those of us who hear Obama say something and then NOT do what he said he would do, upon winning the election.

Not much room for interpretation in

"If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!"

"Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see."

"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"

"I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:36 PM

Uh-huh. Possibilities, I suppose. I don't believe for a moment that it's really about Al Qaeda, though. Al-Qaeda's just a convenient excuse for maintaining a perpetual state of war somewhere...anywhere that's handy. It's the same general procedure outlined in George Orwell's "1984"...the maintenance of a perpetual state of war by Oceania (an alliance of Great Britain and North America) in a variety of distant third world places against an indefinable "enemy" who can never be completely defeated and eliminated. Nothing could be more convenient than an enemy like Al Qaeda who can simply be moved wherever the next war is planned and appear magically wherever required, since they do not represent any specific government or nation.

Kind of like fighting international Communism. You can do it anywhere you please. Since the Soviet Union's demise, new international enemies have had to be found to feed the voracious belly of the military-industrial beast, and they were found in very short order. The much bally-hooed international "Peace Dividend" that we were all promised after the fall of the Berlin Wall never came.

If all the Muslims in the world somehow vanished, another new enemy would have to be found to take their place. My guess is that it would be the Chinese and various other orientals, probably, but that would be far less convenient (and far more dangerous) than a mysterious and hidden outfit like Al Qaeda...people who possess little real firepower and very little manpower, but who can be conjured up laughing evilly like Snidely Whiplash whenever it suits the purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:21 PM

beardedbruce, of the promises you've listed there, how many do we know he won't deliver?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:32 PM

Of the supposed "lies" that Bush is accussed of, HOW MANY were what he SAID, and how many the NYT rewording to make it false??


How many do I expect Obama to deliver? As few as he can.

Obama was supposed to post bills for review- FALSE
Obama was supposed to have OPEN debate- FALSE
Obama makes claims when he does NOT have a bill- and BOTH the bills that have passed WILL NOT DO what Obama has stated.


Obama DID pay off his UAW supporters, at the cost of the investors in GM.

Obama keeps making statements that sound wonderful, and then does NOTHING to make them true.


What we "know" is that Obama is following most of the Bush policies that many here were complaining about- and NOT getting any criticsm for it.
If Bush was Black, and Obama White, I would think that many here are racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:35 PM

"If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!"

NOT according to either of the bills. FALSE already




"Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see."

FALSE already



"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"

FALSE already




"I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"

FALSE already






So, my answer to "of the promises you've listed there, how many do we know he won't deliver? "

the answer is ALL OF THEM.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:37 PM

I can't answer your question, beardedbruce. I don't get my information from the New York Times.

So you're just speculating about the future with some of the promises you say he won't deliver.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:44 PM

If Congress said tha the Easter Bunny would solve our problems, YOU seem to think that proof the problems are solved.

Obama made statements about what he would do. I gave him more than 11 months- AND HE HAS NOT DONE WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD DO.

You are the one speculating- I am making a statemnt based on observed actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:47 PM

You (as president) cannot bring bipartisanship to Congress or to Washington if the seated members of Congress are completely unwilling to engage in it. And they are unwilling to do so. They are simply playing their usual destructive political games...as the "divide and conquer" $ySStem rolls merrily on its way.

Everyone's hidden taxes increase yearly as the great inflation machine run by the banks rolls on and real money declines in value. All politicians lie about what is happening with that (except for the odd maverick like Dennis Kucinich).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:50 PM

Looks like we crossposted.


"If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!"

NOT according to either of the bills. FALSE already

Neither bill has been passed into law, and Obama hasn't signed a health care reform law yet, so you're the one who is lying in this instance.


"Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see."

FALSE already

This one is partially true.



"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"

FALSE already

Since neither bill has been passed into law, and we don't know what the final bill will look like, and since Obama hasn't signed any health care reform law yet, you're the one who is lying in this instance as well.


"I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"

FALSE already

You're the one who is lying in this instance as well, since one of the problems that many of us have with the current bills before both houses is that Obama went much too far in trying to have a bipartisan bill. He gave away much of what his base wanted in order to court Republican votes.


So, my answer to "of the promises you've listed there, how many do we know he won't deliver? "

the answer is ALL OF THEM.

You're the one who is blatantly lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:52 PM

You gave him 11 months!?!

LOLOL!!!!!


He gets to serve out his entire four year term before you can say he won't deliver on his promises.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:57 PM

Wrong.


"He gets to serve out his entire four year term before you can say he won't deliver on his promises. "

When Obama states he will do something FROM THE BEGINNING of his term, and fails to do so, I don't need to give him another minute.


YOU can't tell me what I can say.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:00 PM

Well, you can't say it without lying.

You can certainly say he hasn't fulfilled some of his promises yet. But you can't say without lying that he won't fulfill his promises during his term. In the case of the openness, you can't say he hasn't fulfilled that one either without lying. You can say that he has only partially fulfilled that one and be telling the truth, but that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:13 PM

Bruce is, of course, completely free to say anything, true or not, that will spread around his bitterness and acerbiv dislike about all things Obama. And likely to do so, as well.

But that does not make his statements judicious, even-tempered, fair-minded, or accurate.

The great tragedy of Obama's promise of bi[partisan process is that when he tried it he got mugged by bitter minded naysayers and mindless obstructionists who would rather do anything than improve conditions for the nation.


A