BS: Obama caught in blatant lying

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:00 AM

(Hmmmmmmmm??? Poor ol' Obama kinda been banished from his own thread, Boberdz... Whaddayathink???)

I think it's 'cuase he's on vacation....

(oh???)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:53 AM

"bigot"




                      (?)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:27 AM

Luckily, the heat is coming off Obama now that Chongo has been caught in about 35 different forms of blatant and quite heinous misbehaviour.

But consider this....Obama may even have paid off Chongo to commit those blatancies in ORDER to take the heat off Obama!

Chongo recently purchased a roll top desk and a whole new set of office furnishings.

Hmmm........

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:36 AM

Reginslinger, if you seriously think that converting Jews to Christians "gets them halfway to salvation", than you are a bigot. If that is not what you meant to say, I apologize for the statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:36 AM

Nah, LH... The heat has come off becuase Obama is now beatin' the Repubs to the punch and it's really pissing them off... He is way ahead of them on the guy who burned up his, ahhhhhhh, well, you know... That makes the Repubs mad, mad, mad...

(But, Boberdz... Don't some heads have to roll here???)

Like whoes... Napolitanos... Hey, she quickly corrected her mis-speak without one Repub having time to go into demanding histerics...

Ya'll see... Yes, the heat is off Obama...

I wish I could say it was all to the credit of Chongz but, hey, somethings (horrors) have nothin' to do with him...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:56 AM

artbrooks - If Rig said that, he must have been engaging in some form of broadly satirical humour, because he hates ALL religions with a passion as far as I know.

(Hmmm....that's a form of bigotry too, isn't it? Heh! Remember, bigotry essentially means that one is totally intolerant toward other people and their views for some reason or another...not necessarily because of their race or their gender or whatever, but merely for some reason or other. It is total intolerance to others that establishes bigotry...not hatred of some specially flagged group such as Jews, women, Muslims, Christians, Blacks, etc.) In my opinion, most people turn out to be bigots in one respect or another if you just hang around them long enough to spot them engaging in their own personal form of bigotry. That would include most of the people here who rave on about other people being bigots! I would assert that there is a little bigot hiding in the breasts of 99 out of 100 people who post to this forum, myself included. The thing is to honestly recognize this little bigot when it speaks out of your own mouth. If you can do that, you'll be less likely to hasten to label others as "bigots".

Bobert - Chongo is a bit ticked off at you, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 11:13 AM

Tell the monkey to smoke another joint...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: DougR
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 03:45 PM

Carol: I assume the question you posed on 26 December at 12:18AM is the one you wish me to address.

"Whose taxes have been raised because of health care reform?"

No one because health care has not been reformed. A better question would be, "Whose taxes will be increased WHEN health care IS reformed?"

"Who has lost his/her insurance because of health care reform?"
Ans: No one because health care has not been reformed.

If the final health care reform bill IS passed, anyone that has Medicare Advantage who does not live in Nebraska and portions of Florida will lose their current health insurance, and THAT'S a fact!

Now, how about you answering the questions I posed to you re Obama's lies?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 04:19 PM

"If Rig said that, he must have been engaging in some form of broadly satirical humour..."

                  It was meant to be funny, but I suspect it meant something different to me than most other folks. I shouldn't comment on things religious.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 04:24 PM

Rig I think I've gone after you on at least one other thread, but your comment was meant to be humorous after a fashion and I appreciated that. Please continue to make comments on things religious because I wouldn't mind goin' after ya agin'.

Afectionate ly

rib omatic slider

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:22 PM

On the other hand, it ain't a lot of fun to be gone after. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM

Dougie, Dougie, Dougie...

Compared to younger folks comin' along you have nothing to complain about in terms of just what the government provides you compared to what it provides them or will provide them when they are your age...

That is reality... People keep tellin' us that we need to make some adjustments in how we spread around entitlements... Then someone comes along and tries to fix something and the right wing can't scream loud enough...

Give me a break...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 08:31 PM

...anyone that has Medicare Advantage ... will lose their current health insurance, and THAT'S a fact!

No Douggie-boy, that's a wild distortion and a lie. You've been listing to those hate-radio bullshitters again, heven't you?

In the first place "Medicare Advantage" is a SUPPLEMENTAL plan sold by several private insurance companies & has nothing to do with Medicare, proper.

You will still be covered by Medicare- that "socialized-medicine-government-run-care-rationing" medical coverage you constantly bitch about.

If the Private Insurance Companies that sell your "Medicare Advantage" plan decide to stop providing them if they can't make their usual obscene profit because government subsidies to them are cut, I suggest you take it up with your private insurance company.

Or you can buy another private supplemental policy of your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 08:49 PM

With apologies to Patrick Fitzsimmons

Turn of your radio, Douggie
That ain't the truth
You've got to use your mind
In these hard times...

Check out:

http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/medicare/medicare.pdf

http://www.aarp.org/aarp/presscenter/testimony/articles/medicare_advantage_program.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:02 PM

"Whose taxes have been raised because of health care reform?"

No one because health care has not been reformed. A better question would be, "Whose taxes will be increased WHEN health care IS reformed?"

We don't know the answer to that question because we don't know yet what's going to be in the final bill.


"Who has lost his/her insurance because of health care reform?"
Ans: No one because health care has not been reformed.

If the final health care reform bill IS passed, anyone that has Medicare Advantage who does not live in Nebraska and portions of Florida will lose their current health insurance, and THAT'S a fact!

It's not a fact. We still don't know what's going to be in the final bill, so anyone who is making the above assertions is lying.


Now, how about you answering the questions I posed to you re Obama's lies?

Which questions were those, DougR?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: DougR
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:35 AM

You know what the questions were, Carol. Everybody who reads the posts on this thread know what they are. So one must surmise you don't WANT to answer the questions I posed. No problem. Everyone knows hi lied.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:23 AM

DougR,

On 23 Dec 09 at 12:23 AM, you posted this:

"If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!"

"Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see."

"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"

"I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"

These are not "exact" quotes because I write them from memory, but they are the gist of what our president promised while campaigning. Which of them did he follow through on?

You may not call it lying, but I have noticed from his many appearances on TV that he has a much longer nose eleven months after taking the oath of office than he did before.


On 23 Dec 09 at 01:56 AM, I responded with this:

DougR, of the promises you've listed how many do we know he won't follow up on?


On 24 Dec 09 at 03:38 PM, you responded to me with this:

Can you deny that Obama made the promises I and BB accuse him of lying about?

I did answer this one, several times. If you haven't bothered to read my response, that's your fault and not mine.

Then you proceeded to ask me a bunch of questions about points that I have not made. Why are you asking me questions that have nothing to do with anything I have said in this thread? I would suggest that you are trying to employ straw man arguments and trying to get me to defend things that I have not said as a way of changing the subject instead of admitting that you posted lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:24 AM

The job seems to require lying, if I can go by past history of all the presidents who have been in office in my entire lifetime. The only distinctions about it are...how often? And about what? And with what purpose in mind? And with how serious a consequence?

In addition to that, I will say that all governments frequently lie. If they told the truth, there'd probably be a revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:30 AM

There is no doubt that Obama has said things that aren't true. Whether or not he intentionally lied is something I am willing to wait to find out. However, the complaint I have with people like DougR here in this thread is that they are lying about a lot of the things they say Obama is lying about. I find that to be incredibly cheezy.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 08:13 AM

There are alot of different levels of lies... Some are even honorable... Everyone used to say how nice my Aunt Olive looked at family occasions... Hey, this lady, bless her heart, was so ugly that she'd make a frieght train jump tracks and take a dirt road... Now that was ugly...

So let's keep things in perspective here...

Campaigning is all about painting pictures of the way the candidate sees the world in order to give the voters some idea of what they are getting... Some candidates end up purdy close to their campaign rhetoric and other, ahhhhh, no so...

As much as I am a somewhat disappointed progressive with Obama I have to admit that, for the most part, folks knew what they were getting...

But take George W... Much different story:

1. I'm going to bring a new tone to Washington...

2. I'm going to be a uniter, not a divider...

3. Saddam Hussein is trying to purchase uranium for Niger...

4. Saddam Hussain is buildiong WMD so that he can attack America...

These kinds of lies, Dougie, get special attention not only because of the tjhe pathalogical naturte but of the consequences of telling them:

1. The most polorized the nation has been in the last 60 years

2. Two wars and upwardas of a million people dead

Ya' see, Dougie... This is why when you folks who were so supportive of George W - and you were - go around trying to but Obama's sins in the same category as Bush's you arer going to get some major pushback... Yeah, the right would love to bring Obama doen to Bush's level and if they have a million years they might be able to pull it off but, geese louise, right now you can't believe how friggin' moronish ya'll sound...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Lox
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 08:26 AM

Doug,

Its easy to see that Carol has given a response to every point you've made.

Its also easy to see that you've ignored the points she has made.

You assert that Obama's laws don't do what he said they would do.

Carol responds by saying that no such laws have been passed yet so we don't know what they do yet.

1-0 to carol until you respond to her refutation or support your assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:01 AM

Morons all over the globe are taking offense at being compared with Douggie.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 11:33 AM

I think that all politicians and Presidents lie/ prevaricate/ distort the truth.

Making the point of "Obama caught in blatant lying" is at face value an attempt to make some point that Obama has proven himself exceptional in this sense, probably meant to be a denigration of his politics. I do not believe that point has been made successfully.

Obama and his administration have a long way to go before they will approach the hem of the garment of dissembling that was worn by the previous regime. I remember 'W''s administration trying to create a department of misinformation for the military which was not just bad publicity but freakin' STUPID (a hallmark of the 'W' years).

But as for takin' turns to pick on thread participants, this is a sign of thread decreptitude. Methinks folks have little of merit to add so them are eatin' their own. It's also a trifle cowardly.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:03 PM

It is also important, IMO, to add (once again) that the contents of any bill that Congress finally comes up with has nothing at all to do with anything that Mr. Obama has ever said, proposed or advocated. The President does not control Congress, even the part of Congress that is nominally from the same political party, and the Executive Branch neither writes or approves legislation. It is highly unlikely that Mr. Obama would threaten to veto health care legislation unless it contains exactly what he wants - nothing more and nothing less - and it is equally unlikely that Congress would ever give him such a bill to sign.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: DougR
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:46 PM

Ok, Carol, you (and your band of liberal supporters)win. Obama never told a falsehood in his entire life. He is probably the man on earth who has never done so.

Bobert: evidently word has not reach you yet, but George W. Bush is no longer president.

Now, GregF, has been clamoring all through this thread for his snack, so I'm going out in the garden to dig for worms. He needs his nourishment.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:53 PM

DougR, please show me where I have ever expressed an opinion about whether or not Obama has ever uttered a falsehood. What you are doing is trying to use a straw man to make points.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:02 PM

It doesn't matter much, Dougie, if George Bush is no longer president... What matters is the high grade hypocrisy we are seein' from his supporters... When Bush lied lots of folks were killed... Might of fact, upwards of a million... The bulk of them old people (like yourself0, women and children... Bush also left the country in a complete shambles... Whereever you looked it was like some scene from "Escape from New York" with stuff smoldering here and there.... That was the reality that the antion faced less than one year ago... It is completely disengenious for you and yer buddies to sit back and pretend that this was not the condition of the country that you and yer buddies handed over to Obama...

So, yes, it is relevant that Bush isn't president anymore... And it will be relevant until the mess gets cleaned up...

One of the sickest things that ya'll did was leave the country in a cooked-books scheme to saddle the country with massive deficits no matter what Obama did... This wasn't a childish prank like removin' the "w's" from the White House typewriters... This was an all out Enron book cookin' timebomb waiting to blow up over the next 3 years... What, Dougie??? You consider that honest??? No, it's not honest... And it isn't good governance... It was as crooked as anything that Bush and his little liein'ass accountants could do to the country...

Yeah, when the right wing jumps on stuff that really doesn't matter one bit as if they have discovered the Holy Grail then it smacks of book-cookin' hypocrisy and nuthin' but crybaby sour grapes...

BTW, sorry to all morons out there... I must have lost my head...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:38 PM

Glenn Greenwald from Salon -- one of the few sane voices one can find in American journalism -- in a year end interview, pretty well sums up in strong detail the way in which the Obama administration has locked itself into the self-reinforcing "terrorist war" cycle, now adding Yemen to the list; essentially making the point that in spite of the rhetorical shifts, Obama has become the enabler of essentially all the institutional dynamics of his predecessor --

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/31/glenn

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:07 PM

You are quite right, Peter, and it seems to suggest very strongly what I have been saying for years...that the Democratic and Republican parties are simply two halves of one outfit that supinely serves the same behind the scenes controllers, meaning the people in charge of the military-industrial complex and the major banks and other huge financial organizations.

That the American presidents are bascially elected figureheads rather than real leaders...

And that the elections are used to mesmerize the public into imagining that they still have a real democracy and a real choice, when in fact they are ruled by an oligarchy that controls both political parties regardless of who wins an election...and that uses those 2 political parties to perpetually divide, conquer, confuse, and control the public consciousness.

And by the way...that's fairly much what we have in Canada too, and in the UK, although not nearly as bad yet as it is in the USA...but getting worse, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:06 PM

Wouldn't be too much to ask you two for *your* Ten Point plans, would it???

Rules: Must be appreciative of the realities that Obama inherited and also the realities of a world shaped by a century of colonialism, hatred, misunderstanding and corporate interets...

Now... Have at it... This oughta be fun...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 04:25 PM

Here's the problem, Bobert. If Obama were to attempt a 10-Point plan such as I would recommend, he would most certainly and without question be:

1. crucified for it by the political establishment and media in America

2. checkmated at every turn by that same political establishment and mass media

and...

3. assassinated in pretty short order.

He would never live to carry out the 10-Point plan I would recommend...or that Dennis Kucinich would recommend.

So it's academic. It ain't gonna happen, no matter if Obama tried it or anyone else did in his position.

He is probably doing what he is doing because if he doesn't, he's a dead man.

I would:

1. Immediately begin withdrawing all US troops, mercenary contractors, and "advisors" from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Yemen, and all other Muslim nations that the USA is presently mucking around in. I would declare the "War on Terror" over. And it would be over, because the provocations that cause it would have ended.

2. Close not only Guantanamo, but also the various other secret internment facilities where the USA is holding prisoners without charges.

3. Apologize for having launched unjustified wars of aggression against both Afghanistan and Iraq, and pay them damages for the destruction that has been wrought in those wars.

4. Re-open an investigation into what happened on 911.

5. Institute a REAL universal public health coverage plan in the USA, similar to what exists in most western democracies.

6. Instruct the CIA to stop subverting foreign governments and engaging in covert operations on foreign soil...or else get shut down.

7. Cease giving military aid and moral support to client dictators in places like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, and many others. Cease giving automatic support to Israel no matter what Israel decides to do, and treat them by the same standard as all other nations are treated.

8. Change the banking rules in the USA so that the power of the banks to create vast amounts of money out of thin air is terminated.

9. Give the bailout money to small business and the general public, not to the banks.

10. Put the dollar back on a gold and silver standard (that is, each dollar redeemable upon demand in gold or silver). This would require major alterations in the currency, needless to say.

Anyone who was president and who attempted even a quarter of the program I recommend above would be killed in short order, so like I said, it's purely academic, and it ain't gonna happen. Imperial orders do not accede willingly to reforms that don't suit their imperial plans, and they will kill anyone who attempts to institute them.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: DougR
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:23 PM

Obviously, LH, I am in total disagreement with your ten point plan.

For example: Suppose Obama declares the terrorist war over and the enemy keeps attacking us anyway?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:27 PM

Well, LH, other than legalizin' pot, Which I would throw in, I reckon that our plans are purdy much the same...

But you hit the nail on the head in recognozing that it really is impossible for Obama to do these things... That's the reality part of the question I posed...

Yeah, it's easy for ol' peacenicks to sit around and come up with lots of ways to get folks to get along better but, hey, we ain't president... I think we all neeed to keep this single *fact* in mind once in awhile when blasstin' away at what Obama does or doesn't do...

BTW, I think we've had this discussion on the "gold standard" and I'm not all that hip on it... Cannibus standard??? Different story...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:56 PM

Of course the terrorists will continue. There will always be terrorists. There were terrorists before 9/11 (some homegrown). The point of terrorism is to make people terrified, and the way Americans get so easily terrified, the incentive is sure there. One guy gets on a plane with burning underpants, and the whole American universe comes unplugged.

Like I said, it's a cycle. The British discovered (as have empires before them) that in order to protect their "necessary" boundaries from outside attack, they need to expand their boundaries, which provokes new attacks and so on. Eventually, this collapses from over-extension. And then it is discovered that the "necessary" boundaries aren't all that necessary.   The British (speaking of the British) seem to be doing all right empire-less.

The crazy American problem (due to the fact that their military is so powerful and George Bush was so stupid, and 9/11 was so spectacular) is to keep treating this as a war and legitimizing the terrorists. The British treat these creatures as criminals -- hello, trial by jury -- and once upon a time they resisted to the end treating the IRA as a real "army". I spent the 70s in Britain, and there were bombs going off all the time, and it was a little nerve racking, but that was it. The Yemenis are now about to be given the American gold standard treatment -- the new grand enemy -- and it will play out like all the rest. When you only have a hammer, the world is a bunch of nails. When you have a vast military, everyone is a potential enemy. It's completely pathetic.

Happy New Year.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:33 PM

Well, Peter, depends on how Yemen is handled... If it's handled like Afganistan then we have a problem... If it's handled more in terms of intellegence and surgical strikes then, hey, that's progress 'cause we are moving more and more toward moving from this War on Terrorism to a War on Tarrorists... Big difference... The second implies more police work than what Bush did in occupying countries... Those were colonila/geopolitical decisions like cluttered up the entire last century...

Happy New Years backatcha...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 08:07 PM

You're quite right, Peter. It's completely pathetic. The British aren't the only ones who have discovered the futility of an ever-expanding empire and its eventual collapse. As well as them we have had the Soviets, the Nazis, Napoleonic France, Spain, Holland, Italy, Japan, Belgium, Rome, Greece, Persia, and many others....they all took over various other people's lands, stirred up hostility and resistance in so doing, spread their military control farther and farther afield, and finally the whole damn over-inflated megalomaniac structure collapsed under its own weight.

As will the present American imperial order.

Doug, you have a misunderstanding as to who the "enemy" is, and who created the whole situation in the first place, that's all. The people building the American geopolitical empire in other people's lands created the situation, and the terrorists are merely a symptom of the fallout from the anger and bitterness that has aroused in those lands. The so-called "war on terror" started officially on 911, but it started in actuality as early as the 1950s when the USA began effecting CIA-orchestrated regime change in places like Iran and extending its geopolitical dominion all over the Middle East.

The terrorists you fear have simply been a response to that. If your government wasn't intruding upon and disrupting their societies, they would not be attacking you. Russia is also very much to blame for this, because they were playing the imperial geopolitical game in that region too...but their ambitions came to a disastrous end in Afghanistan. I expect that American ambitions will come to a similarly disastrous end in fairly much the same way.

NO Muslim country has attacked the USA. NO Muslim government has attacked the USA. No Muslim nation has attacked the USA. The USA has attacked them, and it continues to do so.

The "terrorists" are a semi-organized response to that by non-governmental forces. Since their people's governments do not dare to act (being extremely outgunned by America and often run by local puppet governments who take their orders from Washington), the so-called terrorists who arise among those populations take the matter into their own hands. Approximately 90% of Pakistani civilians hate the USA at this point, Doug, and it's not because they're ignorant, it's because they're responding to a real situation that affects their country. They don't hate democracy. They WANT democracy. They don't hate our western culture. In many ways they admire it. They don't hate the Christian religion. What they hate is the fact that their government has become an almost helpless American puppet and their sovereignty is being daily violated by American aircraft, and their civilians are being killed by American airstrikes. This infuriates the ordinary people there, and from the ranks of those infuriated people will come the young men that America terms "terrorists"...because they dared to resist an empire.

Bobert - I'm in favor of legalizing pot too. ;-) (for personal use and home cultivation by the user only...not for commercial sale)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 09:13 AM

Home cultivation??? Man, I'm all for that... I could grow it in my veggie garden where I could tend to it properly and where stupid deer don't eat it... But, no... I gotta go up into the mountain and grow it in terrible conditions and then you put in 10 plants and then 6 are male (which is bad) and of the 4 females only two thrive and of the two a stupid deer eats one down to the ground...

Grrrrrrr????

Yes, home cultivation would do just fine, LH.... I'd be happy with just 2 or 3 healthy females... Plants, that is...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 09:19 AM

Concerning the Yemen, it certainly looks to me like the same old shit. The Obama administration has covertly given the Yemeni government cruise missiles and so on (it is not clear who is in charge of their deployment) to drop on people it doesn't like, and are supposedly Al-Qaeda members. Last week they blew up a lot of people -- note, these people were not brought to a court, nothing has been proved against any of them, they weren't subject to any declarations of intent, and it is more than likely that a whole lot of them were innocent, but, hey, we get to blow them up because we feel like it is a good idea because sometime they might be dangerous to us or to the Yemeni government (who are one more bunch of criminals -- the reason why Guantanamo is not closed is because the Americans don't trust the Yemeni government to handle its own nationals, but, hey, they are our bunch of criminals). This is terrorism on a state scale. I don't know what else to call it.

Curiously enough, this seems to make people angry, and help recruits people against America. Can't figure out why. Baffles me.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 01:35 PM

"This is terrorism on a state scale."

Ah! Now there is the real truth which is never spoken in the western media. The so-called "War on Terror" IS itself terrorism on a state scale and on a really enormous scale, terrorism as practiced by western governments and their armed forces and covert agencies against various Muslim nations, and that is exactly the way most Muslims see it. They also see Israel's aggressive activities beyond its own borders in that same light.

They see themselves as the people who are victimized by terrorism, who are fighting against terrorism, and I think they are quite correct in seeing it that way. There will never be any lack of willing recruits to fight the American and Israeli forces in the various occupied lands, because that is how people react to state-sponsored terrorism. They take up arms against it.

Terrorism does, of course, provoke counter-terrorism. That's inevitable. If you look at the body count in this war, however, the terrorism practiced by western governments and armies is so much greater in its violence and destruction than the terrorism practiced by scattered groups of jihadists such as Al Qaeda that for the USA to imagine it's righteously fighting a war against terrorism is sort of like Stalin imagining he was righteously fighting a war against totalitarianism.

Absolute nonsense, in other words. An extremely exaggerated case of the pot calling the kettle black. A very big lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 05:24 PM

I don't think it's a big drop of the scales off the eyes to call it state sponsored terrorism (on our part), the military under the 'W' regime was dense enough to make a point of calling it "SHOCK AND AWE" if you remember. This was stupid in many dimensions, because it pretty much sent the message, "We're better beCAUSE we're bigger and badder" and then it couldn't live down to the message 'member all those big holes we left around Baghdad full of vaporized people who turned out NOT to be Saddam? This is part of how we fomented the insurgency against us.

And it aided the cynical definition: "A terrorist is someone who delivers a bomb without an airplane"

And I think the current administration is aware of it to the extent that it is trying a hearts and minds approach in Afghanistan and Pakistan and getting out of Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM

You're quite right, robomatic, that it is no great revelation...but what I'm talking about is how the USA mass media discusses the war and how they work to sanitize what Washington is doing.

In truth, all state-sponsored wars fought on foreign soil inevitably involve acts of terrorism upon whomever the war is targeting. But they only call it "terrorism" when their opponents do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 09:25 PM

How is the administration framing the discussion about the CIA people who were killed in Pakistan. Is anybody asking the question, "Why were they there?"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 10:10 PM

"how we fomented the insurgency against us."

First, they came for the cartoonists. Bloomberg

Oh me oh my we must turn over our cartoonists or they will get us all! (Then we can move on to all the other things we do that make us deserve this punishmment.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 10:17 PM

Well, I for one, am glad that the CIA folks are there, Rigs... That means that Obama is moving more toward dealing with bad guys as bad guys and not invading countries with conventional armies and then occupying them... May not be perfect but beats the heck outta the last guy's approach...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 11:43 AM

The CIA folks were there in Iran way back in the 1950s too, Bobert. And what were they doing there? They were arranging the overthrow of an elected government which had had the bad sense to nationalize the country's oil industry (previously run by and for the benefit of UK oil companies). That government was replaced by absolute dictatorial rule by a western-backed monarch, the Shah. This has not been forgotten by Muslims, but it's barely a vague memory to most Americans, if they even know about it at all anymore.

Like I said, this war started a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 11:56 AM

I am often amused by Mudcat's conspiracy theorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:39 PM

Just in case anyone might think that because of artbrooks' post, the CIA backed coup in Iran in the 50s is a conspiracy theory, it is not. It is a verifiable fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:45 PM

What "conspiracy" would you be alluding to? The coup events in Iran are well-documented. I don't call it a conspiracy, I call it normal geopolitics on the part of great powers who wish to control the supply and marketing of oil, a vital strategic resource. The Great powers who have mostly interfered in the Muslim world since the end of WWII are Great Britain, the USA, Russia, and the USA's proxy in the region, Israel.

The Muslims there don't see it as a conspiracy, they see it as an open war between the local populations and several great imperial powers. They are quite correct in seeing it in those terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 01:50 PM

Conspiracy theory: the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) is a bunch of loose cannons, who go off on their own to do whatever mischief their pointy little heads come up with. Fact: the CIA is an agency of the US government which carries out tasks assigned to it by the National Command Authority. For example, the CIA overthrow of the semi-democratically elected government of Iranian PM Mohammed Mosaddeq, with the active assistance of the British SAS, was ordered by President Eisenhower, at the request of British PM Churchill.   Many of the operations carried out by the CIA have been, at best, morally reprehensible but that doesn't mean that they ever did anything without specific orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:54 PM

I don't see anyone in this thread suggesting that the CIA acts on its own initiative, artbrooks. It looks to me like people are criticizing the US government for sending them to places like Pakistan.