BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!

Subject: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 03:42 PM

Yet for some reason, most the US media keeps using the word being peddled by the White House.

Bush goes on Arab TV and not only doesn't apologize, but says justice will be served just as soon as we know the truth.

Which I suppose is why the torturers are being let off the hook already. From an article in today's Washington Post (mind you, this is for murdering an Iraqi):

"In the death of another detainee at another Iraqi prison, who was shot while assaulting a U.S. soldier with rocks, the soldier was found guilty of using excessive force. He was demoted to the rank of private and discharged from the Army in place of a court-martial, an Army spokesman said."

Wouldn't want to give anyone jail time for killing "enemy combatants" now would we?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 04 - 03:49 PM

The real target of your ire should well be Bush himself, N.O. Ranting at half-eddicated underlings is not going to accomplish anything.

A

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 06:10 PM

On second thought it is short sighted of me to think the soldier should have appreciated having rocks thrown at him. But couldn't he have just clubbed the Iraqi?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 May 04 - 06:54 PM

But it is just abuse. The soldiers only abuse the prisoners and then hand them over to the "civilian contractors" who do the real torturing. It's in the Torturers' Union contract with the government that the soldiers aren't allowed to do any of the torturing, only abusing. It's right after the clause that says that they can't be tried in a U.S. military court because they're civilians, but they can't be tried in U.S. civilian courts because they're in Iraq, and they can't be tried in Iraqui courts because they're Americans.   

It's similar to the rule that says the detainees at Guantanamo Bay have no rights under U.S. law because they're in Cuba and they have no rights under Cuban law because the U'S. doesn't recognize Cuban law. And they have no rights as prisoners of war because the entity for which they were fighting is not a state and, hence, not a signatory of the Geneva Convention.

Franz Kafka would have no shortage of book ideas if he were alive today.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:02 PM

But soldiers do appreciate having rocks thrown at them. Better rocks than bullets any day. Nerf balls are very highly thought of.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:10 PM

Depends a lot on the rock. A large chunk of cinder block from a short distance away can kill just as easily as a bullet can.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:13 PM

I still prefer nerf balls. Or nerf bullets, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:33 PM

"It's not the sort of thing we do" - except in Vietnam... and many other places...

I notice Kerry is rather quiet - didn't he try to testify that such nastiness took place in the US Military, and was disbelieved and severely criticised for daring to speak out?

It appears that some people are just not willing to accept reality, and the rest of the country was quite willing to put them in charge of the most powerful Military in the World. (Don't forget the large number of US citizens who refuse to vote...)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: el ted
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:38 AM

The hysteria has been amazing. Hitler must be laughing his nuts off. A sense of perspective is called for here.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Stu
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:40 AM

"The hysteria has been amazing. Hitler must be laughing his nuts off. A sense of perspective is called for here."

In whay way el ted?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:47 AM

Hey, what's in a word...If Bushy-baby wants to call it "abuse", let him. He should know all about self-abuse anyway, the w****r.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 08:45 AM

The US government and it's media puppets are studiously avoiding the use of the word 'torture' so that the Geneva Conventions don't get invoked against them at the UN, where they have gone hat in hand, to look for any old warm military force with a pulse to bail them out.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Donuel
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:02 AM

Bush:          "I KNEW NOTHING" (which is typical)
Rush Limbaugh: "It was no different than a college prank"


Rumsfeld:

They wore an itsybitsy
teeny weenie CIA hood
they can't see me,

when we take pics
of detainees dicks.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Donuel
Date: 06 May 04 - 10:15 AM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/rumsitsy.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,JB
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:22 PM

Fo me, almost worse than Bush not coming out with an honest and simple apology (arrogant brat that he is), was the embarassing smirk on his face.

Oh how I would love to slap that sly grin off his face!

JB

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:09 PM

Or, as we were discussing in the sci fi movie thread, someone ripping off his face, and exposing him as a lizard alien.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:12 PM

Did Rush Limbaugh actually say that? Boy, do I have a "college prank" figured out for him!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:31 PM

torture is a nasty subset of abuse. Some were tortured, some were 'merely' abused.

(I think 'abuse' is a subset of 'stupidity')

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 04 - 06:53 PM

Any bad treatment which is intended to get information out of people, or soften them up so that they will talk, is torture.

I note that the guy they have put in charge of Abu Ghraib, who was previously in charge of Guantanamo Bay, has said that he thinks that stuff like sleep deprivation, and a range of other "interrogation techniques", are fine by him. Well he would, wouldn't he?

So I'd not be too hopeful about an end to torture. But there probably won't be many more photos coming out, so that should make life a lot easier for the people up the line.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: DougR
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:42 AM

So, McGrath, if you were the officer in charge of interrogation, how would YOU get the information you needed? Offer them tea and cakes, and hope they cooperate? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence? Sleep deprivation is not torture. It's a method of gaining needed information.

Oh, I know, we shouldn't capture the enemy in the first place. We don't need intelligence, right? We should simply be Superman and leap over buildings.

Give me a break.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 03:51 AM

Bee-dubya-ell got it right.

Doesn't really matter if it was torture or abuse - most abuse is torturous. What matters is who will be blamed and punished. As pointed out - it won't be the well-paid, private contractors who actually carry out the torture and are immune from all military and civil law.

Unfortunately, it will be the army reservists who were trained as clerical staff, auto mechanic, etc. who will take the fall. The poor, uneducated and highly impressionable small-town kids who were assigned to a position where they were highly manipulated. I am so sick of the war mongers using these kids to do their dirty work. Its probably the first time some of them have even been away from home.

I'm not trying to say they are innocent. They are probably guilty but lets remember that military service changes people. I had a little brother who was a "cry baby." When he turned 18 he joined the Marines. He came home with eyes of steel. He's never been the same.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 07 May 04 - 03:52 AM

Interrogation is easy, Doug.
EASY, I tell you.
And if you ever studied the art, you would know exactly what I mean.

Give me a break!

I have interviewed some of the toughest nuts around, and have never laid a finger on any of them. I have received some very valuable insights as a result. If I ever heard that any of my team had, I would have trailed their ass though every court in the land.

The humanity of the person you are interviewing need never ever be infringed upon.

I have a feeling that you have been watching too Bruce Willis films, or something.

I have a feeling that some of our 'finest' do, as well

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:06 AM

'Torture' in the many international conventions and in international Law is defined as severe physical or mental pain or suffering and not just as 'any bad treatment'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:16 AM

All prisoners are entitled to be kept under reasonable basic conditions, and that includes adequate sleep, food, clothing and shelter.

Any interrogation or questioning has to be consistent with that. Once you authorise stepping over that line, you inevitably end up with the kind of nauseating stuff we've been hearing about. Except normally we don't hear about it, because the photographic evidence isn't there to attract attention. Detailed allegations like this have been around for a longtime, but they have been ignored, because it's easy to ignore allegations from people who claim to have been tortured and abused.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 May 04 - 10:52 AM

"Sleep deprivation is not torture. It's a method of gaining needed information."
well, Doug...and how far would YOU go? The complaints were not about sleep deprivation. You seem to assume that every prisoner has the information you seek? How much "creative interrogation" is reasonable if the guy keeps saying "I don't KNOW the answer?" The reports on much of this seem to indicate that there were attempts to simply gain "confessions", not just information. Didn't John McCain report that this is how POWs in Viet Nam & Cambodia were treated? Abuse them until they say what you want, whther it has any relation to reality or not.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:00 PM

Its me again!
Many children in this country are beaten, starved, locked up, kept in chains, etc. It is "officially" written into our laws as "Child Abuse". Same for "Spousal Abuse", "Animal Abuse" etc. It is not called "torture" although that is certainly what the suffering subject is being subjected to. It's a shame that an "enemy combatant" should have such consideration shown for his sensitivities and rights when we have already written off the word torture for our own children and spouses.

My Websters dictionary definition of torture does not mention a distinction between assault for information or assault for it's own sake.

Some methods used to interrogate will undoubtedly be called torture by someone. Pushing a person through physical pain to confess or provide information is only likely to result in information that can't be trusted by those that must act on it. The only reason I can think of for them doing it is to provide some flimsy evidence to "prove" the WMD's were around, were sold to terrorists, ties to Al Quaida, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:16 PM

No Chief Chaos, its a shame that any human being should have have their human rights wrtitten off.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:30 PM

The distinction between use of the word torture and abuse is relevant in legal terms. The Geneva Convention uses the word torture to describe the treatment the Iraqi detainees received at the hands of US troops and private contractors. Torture is what raises this sort of abuse to the level of war crimes. It is also relevant because it regulates the treatment of prisoners in war time, not in civilian circumstances where people might be tortured. That is a different set of laws entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:03 PM

What is appauling is this nit picking between "torture" and "abuse".

Both are unaceptable.

Torture is not a reliable means of gathering intelligence, bribary can be.

It appears the US of A has forgotten history.

Having said that bit I am not prepared to to enter any arguments on the morality of those who say, such as Despotic Governments in the Middle East, or "Freedom Fighters" in Ireland, who scream "torture" where Brits/ US of A are concerned, and have a different attitude towards thier own treatment of "dissidants" and "informers" - The word for that is Hypocracy (SP)

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:44 PM

And that applies both ways. And there's an awful lot of it about.

The practice of diverting attention to the evil done by opponents, as a way of drawing attention from the things done by our own side, or even justifying them, is very widespread.

Though in the case of countries with a reputation for using torture, it's worth noting that much of the time they aren't opponents, they are allies, and there is very well documented of how their torturing expertise and readiness are used as a very convenient resource by the people on "our" side.

I suspect that after this current fire storm has subsided, that practice will be greatly extended to avoid a repetition of the embarrassment caused. (After all, if those pictures had come out from a torture facility in, say Egypt, it wouldn't have caused anything like this concern in America or Europe, since it could have been written off as something "they" might do, but "we" never would.)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 04 - 09:02 PM

I was in charge of an IPW (Interrogation of Prisoners of War) section in an Army Reserve Military Intelligence Detachment at one time. Laying hands (or any other part of the anatomy) on a prisoner was absolutely forbidden. So was anything else that caused injury physical discomfort. The methods we were taught to use, because they are proven to work, were such things as "good cop/bad cop" and "I only want you to confirm what someone else has told us." The explaination we are now getting, that the spooks got in there and convinced the soldiers that they had the authority to give them orders, sounds more and more convincing. That is far from an excuse, however.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 07 May 04 - 09:12 PM

"Having said that bit I am not prepared to to enter any arguments on the morality of those who say, such as Despotic Governments in the Middle East, or "Freedom Fighters" in Ireland, who scream "torture" where Brits/ US of A are concerned, and have a different attitude towards thier own treatment of "dissidants" and "informers"

Gareth not only wants to have his cake, and to eat it.
He also wants to have a glass or two of Champagne.

With cherries.

But you're learning..., in fairness    !

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 08 May 04 - 06:07 AM

Jim Would you mind translating your comments into English, as it stands at the moment, I have difficulty in comprehending what you mean. As no doubt do many others.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 May 04 - 12:09 PM

Gareth you really are a genius, how the hell do you operate the keys in a strait-jacket.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 08 May 04 - 03:26 PM

Simple I just imagine I'am an aging brain damaged republican.

Oh dear, Can't Jim reply, or is Jims reply cant ? or is he busy being indoctrinated again.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 03:38 PM

No, Gareth. Nothing like that.

You just wouldn't understand, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 04 - 09:39 PM

Its really absurdly simple. Doug can explain further, if needed:

1. When the U.S. or its minions perpetrates it, its merely "interrogation" possibly bordering on "abuse".

2. When any other nation perpetrates it- in particular those godless Eye-Rackie towel-head terrorist sonzabitches that blew up the Twin Towers,& messed with poor private whats-her-name, its "torture'.

Q.E.D.

I believe, I do, I believe its true
I believe exactly what they tell me to
I believe, I do, I believe its true
I'm a simple guy, I believe.

Works for me-

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 09:49 PM

Yet for some reason, most the US media keeps using the word being peddled by the White House.
-----

It was NOT torture. It was wrong, idiotic, abuse, shameful; etc.

Torture is what happened when Saddan Hussein was in charge, Saddam had rape rooms, and forced parents to watc children's eyes be gouged out, sentenced a 10 year old boy to prison for years because he refused to join the Baathist regime.

Are you aware the media knew about this shameful incident in January when it happened, and the military chain of command started an investigation ONE day after they became aware of the incident. The media sat on this story for three months until they had pictures to shock the nations conscience.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:02 PM

torturing. It's in the Torturers' Union contract with the government that the soldiers aren't allowed to do any of the torturing, only abusing. It's right after the clause that says that they can't be tried in a U.S. military court because they're civilians, but they can't be tried in U.S. civilian courts because they're in Iraq, and they can't be tried in Iraqui courts because they're Americans.   
-----

You are correct that private contractors do the interogating.

What people saw was idiotic attempts to prevent the people from sleeping.

It was idiotic to dehumanize the prisoners the way they did.

It was stupidity to take pictures and videotapes.

In another portion of the message you talked about the geneva convention. Your lack of knowledge in this matter astounds me.

1. During the Vietnam War; the VC NEVER treated American soldiers according to the geneva convention because the Viet Kong was not a signatory of the Geneva convention.

2. We can not categorize the detainees (prisoners in Iraq and in Cuba) as prisoners of war. The reason for this is that they are NOT members of the Iraqi army (they wore no uniform, and had no identification as a soldier of the Iraqi army. Since they wore NO military uniform, and had NO military identification (ID or even dog tags); so they ONLY way the foreign fighters, and Iraqi civilians CAN be classified are as enemy combatants, and such people are not entitled (by law) the benefits of Prisoner of war status.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:07 PM

The US government and it's media puppets are studiously avoiding the use of the word 'torture' so that the Geneva Conventions don't get invoked against them at the UN, where they have gone hat in hand, to look for any old warm military
-----

If it was torture; I would agree with you.

I will agree that it was awful stupid, wrong, and humiliating; but not torture.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:10 PM

Bribery is not a reliable way of obtaining info as unless the person providing info stays within the perview of his "contacts" he can take money for false info and fade into the crowd. And once a person is bought, there is no reason to believe that he can't be bought by the other side. That person may also be working for the other side providing just enough to be a good source but providing disinformation as well. THe only way it works is to have several sources offering the same info that can be corroborated. That gets rather expensive and is still not that reliable. None of this is to be construed to exhonerate using torture.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:12 PM

Fo me, almost worse than Bush not coming out with an honest and simple apology (arrogant brat that he is), was the embarassing smirk on his face.
----

That's just great; have someone that had nothing to do with the idiotic behaviour; appologize, take responsibility for the activity.

I say find the oes that are guilty of the actions; court martial them, then send them to Leavenworth for the next 10 years. The same should be dished out to the people that ordered them to do it.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:14 PM

Did Rush Limbaugh actually say that? Boy, do I have a "college prank" figured out for him!!
----

Unfortunately; Rush really did say that stupid remark.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:21 PM

So, McGrath, if you were the officer in charge of interrogation, how would YOU get the information you needed? Offer them tea and cakes, and hope they cooperate? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence? Sleep deprivation is not torture. It's a method of gaining needed information.
-----

I see someone else like me sneaked in.

Good for you!

I wish the people would stop listening to the 7 second sound bytes that are designed to evoke emotion instead of applying logic and and reason to the situation.

The people in that prison had ALL tried to kill U.S. Soldiers and Iraqi civilians. They are NOT members of an Iraqi army, and have no official Iraqi identification, and they are not entitled to the status of POW, and are NOT entitled to the Geneva Convention.

I was beginning to think I was the only one here that understood the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:26 PM

So, McGrath, if you were the officer in charge of interrogation, how would YOU get the information you needed? Offer them tea and cakes, and hope they cooperate? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence? Sleep deprivation is not torture. It's a method of gaining needed information.
-----

Diana:

The guilty ones are the ones that should take the fall. No more; no less.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:28 PM

All prisoners are entitled to be kept under reasonable basic conditions, and that includes adequate sleep, food, clothing and shelter.
-----

They AREN'T prisoners of war. They are enemy combatants, and the Geneva Convention is NOR applicable to Enemy Combatants

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:42 PM

Many children in this country are beaten, starved, locked up, kept in chains, etc. It is "officially" written into our laws as "Child

   Hello Chaos. Lots of children was abused. I sure was.

think of for them doing it is to provide some flimsy evidence to "prove" the WMD's were around, were sold to terrorists, ties to Al Quaida, etc.

   They do not need flimsy evidence. It is FACT that Saddam Hussein
   HAD WMDs. He used them against the Kurds, and in the Iraqi and
   Iranian war. There is video proof that Saddam Hussein USED WMDs in
   the past does NOT give me a warm fuzzy feelings that they have noy
   been found yet.

   Did Hussein ship the WMDs he had to Syria?

   Did Hussein place them aboard those three ships that flew
   different nation flags at different times; when ships are supposed
   to fly the flag of the nation of ownership.

   Did Hussein order the army to bury the WMDs in sand, and use GPS
   to mark the sites. A few months ago; the U.S. Military found a
   complete jet buried in the sand.

   Did Hussein sell the WMDs or terrorists, and they are trying to
   smuggle them into the U.S. I do not want to see the report that
   millions of people in LA, Chicago, New York, San Francisco, etc
   were killed by Anthrax, VX gas, etc.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:47 PM

"It was NOT torture. It was.... abuse...
What people saw was .... attempts to prevent the people from sleeping
.... to dehumanize the prisoners the way they did
I will agree that it was ... humiliating; but not torture."

Looks like you studied at the Gareth Williams Institute for Advanced Debating Skills (GWIADS for short)

"It was stupidity to take pictures and videotapes."

It was not. It was serendipitous.
Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion

"Iraqi civilians CAN be classified are as enemy combatants, and such people are not entitled (by law) the benefits of Prisoner of war status."

They CAN also be classified as innocent civilians

"I wish the people would stop listening to the 7 second sound bytes that are designed to evoke emotion instead of applying logic and and reason to the situation"

So do I.

And I wish they would stop taking 9 posts to say it

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:49 PM

The distinction between use of the word torture and abuse is relevant in legal terms. The Geneva Convention uses the word torture to describe the treatment the Iraqi detainees received at the hands of US troops and private contractors. Torture is
-----

Excuse me; but if you were as intelegent as you THINK you are; you would study the Geneva Convention (GC), and UNDERSTAND that the GC ONLY applies to POWS, then you would do research to see if the POW status is applicable to the detainees, and the detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. They are NOT. They are only entitled to the status of enemy combatant.

True POWs are members of other nations's army, and have identification providing NAME, ID number, and other material.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:51 PM

Is it OK if we rub your nose in it 2 Bears, when your theories fall flat on their face?