BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens

Subject: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Aug 24 - 01:16 PM

The hot news today seems to be a serious discussion on the Gov proposal about banning smoking in pub gardens.

Even as a non-smoker I think this is a bad idea. A good health move in many ways except er, um 2.

1) the thought of all those angry smokers gasping for a coffin-nail at a pub.

2) the health of the politics in the UK from those hangry voters.

3) Not to mention the vapers on buses or rooms, that seem to ignore any signs and think they are not polluting the atmosphere. Who will react by going indoors and daring you to complain.

I read somewhere like the New Scientist, that nicotine is imuno-supressive

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 02:57 AM

a burden on the NHS?, The ban will not stop smokers , What they might do is smoke and drink at home, there is a more sensible alternative, tax it more .
the proposed ban will affect the pub industry , we might see fewer pubs and fewer venues for folk clubs,

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 04:26 AM

Okay .............. firstly I am an ex-smoker but could Mr Red please tell me what the detrimental effects of vaping are.

I witness a lot of people getting hot under the collar about vaping but I personally do not know what, if any, those effects are.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 06:06 AM

Raggytash.....take a look at this. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/5-truths-you-need-to-know-about-vaping

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 06:35 AM

The problem, for me, with vaping is the sweet, sickly 'fruit flavour' scents that are so often found. As someone who has to cross to the opposite side of a shopping mall to avoid a scented candle shop, I find scented vapes absolutely nauseating and would hate to sit downwind of a vaper, whether there was a health hazard or not.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Charmion
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 08:37 AM

I’m a bad asthmatic who loathes tobacco effluent in all its forms, but I think this proposal is a bad idea.

It will have zero effect on smokers’ consumption except to compel them to indulge their habit in the street, where they will leave messes and blow clouds of foulness in the faces of passers-by. This is the state of affairs in Ontario, where I live. Also, as pointed out by others, it will hurt pub trade, which is already threatened.

As long as tobacco use is tolerated at all, addicted smokers will need safe spaces in which to toke up. Pub gardens are at least cleaned and maintained by the serving staff, whose jobs are supported in no small part by smokers.

In Britain, as in Canada, the best solution to the problem of tobacco addiction is already in place: increasingly strong social disapproval. When did you last see a spittoon in a public place? Probably never. In my great-grandfather’s time, people chewed tobacco and spat without shame, but that practice is now widely regarded as both dangerous and disgusting. Smoking will go the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 10:09 AM

It seems a bit pointless to ban smoking in the outdoor space of a pub when, quite often, the pub outdoor area is separated from the public street only by a low barrier. Banning smoking in public altogether seems more sensible but, as an ex smoker, it would not affect me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 11:45 AM

i am a non smoker , but this is a silly proposal.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 12:04 PM

I stopped going to folk clubs years ago - all it took was one person lighting up and the whole place stank for everyone. Sitting in proximity outside is slightly less problematic, but I still won't do it.

Good luck sorting it out, until vast numbers of people figure out how to leave behind the nicotine addiction and clean air is no longer a problem. I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 12:11 PM

good law, has to be enforceable and workable.
folk clubs are held indoors in general and smoking is not allowed

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 01:53 PM

One of my favourite quotes. Can't remember who said it.

Having a smoking area in a pub is like having a pissing area in a swimming pool :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 05:45 PM

And for a musical interlude, one of the best anti smoking songs ever by Stanley Accrington

Enjoy :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 03:03 AM

having a smoking area in a pub garden is better than allowing smoking in a pub

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 07:28 AM

could Mr Red please tell me what the detrimental effects of vaping are

Well
1) there has been no research into the additives that vapers enjoy, least ways none that the New Scientist report, what they do report is: "they don't know of any research" currently. And there are a lot of variations of flavours/additives (usually unspecified). One vaper insisted her flavours were organic (?). Not many people know that chamomile is toxic, and who knows what other flavours are out there. Foxglove, viburnam etc such pretty names. Ignorance is rife.

2) all that vape blowing my way. In public it hangs around without visibility. It is far more pervasive than cigarette smoke. I have to endure it on buses. I have had people tell me they are going to vape indoors, as if to challenge me to challenge them.

3) nicotine is immuno-supressive and from what I see of vapers, some produce vast volumes of white vape far exceeding anything from ciggies. Their funeral, but I don't get a free pass, & I don't know they are doing it till the vape or the smell.

4) It is all down to responsibility, which has little currency when confronted with personal freedoms. I can at least go indoors or elsewhere, which is why I think a Gov ban is counter-productive, a sticking plaster in the wrong place.

5) it is a minor example of the "Tragedy of the Commons" - air is free to pollute, it seems.

FWIW I do the same with the smell of garlic, I don't have to patronise that kind of establishment. Leave it to those that do.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 07:45 AM

I was sitting in a bar last week and one chap was vaping, he licensee seemed to "turn a blind eye" however one woman (I think a serious woke) was coughing and spluttering at length and asked him to stop ............ fair enough ............ however as the window was wide open and even I could tell that the fumes pouring through the window were the exhaust fumes of cars (and that particular day) motorbikes revving up in the parking days outside .....................

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 08:14 AM

It's a jungle out there......

Meanwhile back at Wikipedia E-cigs - if you imbibe you may not want to read

Formaldehyde anyone? I will save on embalming fliud when you do snuff it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 03:50 AM

here is a suggestion, which might have flaws, tax tobacco more but reduce tax on snuff.
so cigarette smokers are encouraged to switch from tobacco to snuff. snuff is not likely to affect non smokers in the same way as cigarette smoke does

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 04:12 AM

I am not so sure snuff is not without its drawbacks. Handkerchiefs being one, use tissues. And anything that you inhale will end clogging the lungs, to whatever extent. The mucus may dissolve it but there are clues with analogues, like Pneumoconiosis. Sawdust is a good comparison, plant based fine dust, bacteria need oxygen to eat it - (in your lung?).

Sawdust is a known carcinogen, indeed in the days of sawpits, the guy at the bottom of the pit was paid more, because he might not live as long!

Snuff is still a very effective way to get the immuno-suppressive nicotine into the bloodstream. And whatever else is present in snuff, like peppermint etc.

And there is always that product called Skaols, teabags of tobacco you put under the tongue. It didn't catch on 40 years ago. But was a more refined version of chewing tobacco.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 05:17 AM

May as well use the readily available nicotine gum.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 05:44 AM

May as well use the readily available nicotine gum.

... and then spit it out onto the pavement, to join all the other chewing gum that the street cleaners have to deal with. There's a downside to everything.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 05:50 AM

That was with reference to the Skoal post, Doug. I don't see any difference between the tobacco bags and nicotine gum. They both have to be disposed of somewhere and those who spit gum onto the street are just as likely to dispose of the Skoals in the same way. I guess they are not as sticky but they are bigger!

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 07:58 AM

"And there is always that product called Skaols, teabags of tobacco you put under the tongue. It didn't catch on 40 years ago. But was a more refined version of chewing tobacco."

Shoals are highly carcinogenic, and prolonged use results in the flesh of the mouth and face being eaten away. I worked in Sweden for a while, where they were commonly used by my work-colleagues, one of whome had a hole in his cheek caused by the causticity of the Skoals he constantly held between his gum and cheek.

Shoals are banned in the UK, and rightly so.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 10:09 AM

Shoals?? WTF? SKOALS!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 03:48 PM

Encouraging people to use smokeless tobacco in order to keep the pubs and folk clubs well attended seems awfully mercenary. A not too deep a dive will inform you as to how harmful the stuff can be.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 24 - 09:55 AM

Gillymor. you have misunderstood. the government are considering a ban because the ukNHS is under strain partky because of tobacco smokers, the ban will not stop people from smoking tobacco at home, so it is doubtful it will have any affect other than emptying pubs and possibly closing them, smokeless tobacco is less harmful than smoking tobacco the lesser of two evils, smokeless tobacco does not cause non smokers to inhale tobacco

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 24 - 10:51 AM

You cannot inhale tobacco. Or you could but you would choke.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Sep 24 - 11:01 AM

I wouldn't want my government to encourage citizens to exchange one toxic substance for another in the interest of commerce. If it's going to get involved it should be encouraging people to eschew all tobacco products.

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 03 Sep 24 - 11:29 AM

don't you inhale snuff?

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 24 - 12:05 PM

YES People inhale snuff and yes it is a tobacco product

Subject: RE: BS: UK proposed smoking ban, pub gardens
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 24 - 12:06 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/sep/02/would-an-outdoor-smoking-ban-have-an-effect-on-racecourse-attendances?utm_