BS: Canada Election

Subject: BS: Canada Election
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 09:05 PM

I move that Stephen Harper has his arse kicked! Any seconder?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 09:08 PM

I second the motion.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 09:10 PM

Thanks Bruce! All in favour?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 09:14 PM

Aye!

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Charmion
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:14 AM

And away we go!

Here in Ottawa, there are two kinds of people: those fixated on politics above all other considerations, and those too darned busy with jobs and family responsibilities to think of politics as anything but a distracting nuisance.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: gnu
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:24 AM

Where's me gum rubbers with the steel toes?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: GUEST,Stew
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:50 AM

Great choice eh! A blue haze or a pink veil. Don't vote, it only encourages them snakes.
Stew

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:57 AM

I think I'll vote for Claude DeBellefeuille, Députée de Beauharnois-Salaberry. She's with the Bloc Québécois, but when I wrote to our representatives asking what the government was doing about Libya--a few weeks back--the only party that replied to me was the Bloc. And it was hard for them, because mostly the party's supporters are French speaking. I wrote in English and then with the help of an on-line translator site, tried putting my words into French--and lord knows what I ended up saying. They also struggled with the English in which they answered me. BUT, they tried, despite my having told Claude a few times in writing that her party's language policies really peed me off--in polite terms of course. I find them to be straight-forward and honest.

She has and continues to be a great representative for the people of the Beauharnois-Salaberry electoral district, English speakers included. I am sick and tired being ignored by our MPs and getting vapid responses to the half dozen questions I pose each year. May change my decision, but likely not.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM

Good for you, BM!! And good to know.

I have long wandered how it is that all our politicians seem to leave what brains they have in Nepean - neglecting to take them into Ottawa.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:17 PM

Vote, even if you have to hold your nose on the way to the polls. — Pierre Trudeau.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: gnu
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM

You make a good point 999. I've said it many times before... the Quebeqois have balls. They stand up for themselves and stick together for Quebec in the face of idiocy from Ottawa fuelled by the divide and conquer tactics by those idiots for reasons that would be libel for me to post. Wish we had more of that in every other province. I suppose we don't because we have lost our Canuckness and succumbed to the political correctness that has spiralled out of control.

Mum said today she won't vote and asked me to proxy. She can't bear to see what her generation endured and worked for be taken away by crooks who, for the tip of the iceberg, use her money to build schools in Afghanistan but are going to close the high school she attended (it's going to be refurbished and then sold for graft after a new one is built by a private company for kickbacks and a ten percent profit and then operated for a fee for many years... oops!)

Yes, I know I talking federal/provincial/municipal differences but in the end, they all have to be crooks to shake down my mother... and your mother and you and your children. It's fuckin sick.

If I win the Lotto, I am buyin me a spot in Quebec so I have the option to move there if they ever separate.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: gnu
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:28 PM

Ahhh, Pierre... we need you. That guy had balls. He put the FIRA God into those that would sell Canada down the river.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM

"Ahhh, Pierre... we need you. That guy had balls."
He also had the balls to stand up to the big oil companies. Bastards put the gas up here 21/2 cents a liter last night.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:21 PM

Sandy, you have NO compassion. Esso, Exxon, BP: They're just tryin' to make a buck for their share holders. OK, so you're gettin' fucked at the pump and they got no vaseline--

Hey! WHY no vaseline? It's a petroleum product after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: gnu
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:32 PM

Our premier put the gas tax up 3 pence in the budget without warning. He put smokes up $1.40 a pack... PLUS SALES TAX... wtf? He raised the price fishing and hunting licenses but didn't say how much. He wants to sell NB Liquor and it makes money... hmmm... why would he want to do that?... offshore account? Like fuckin Sobeys need to make more money by running the liquor stores while the provincial government can't pay it's bills? Like the bill for the utilities review board salaries that were increased over 30% recently for very highly paid people whi do very little ain't payin kickbacks?

Bunch a greedy crook bastards. Starting with Stevie #1 and trickling down our collective legs.

Vote for who? Hmmm... I wonder who will fuck Canadians up the ass most gently.

AAAGGGHHHHHH!

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Beer
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:09 PM

Thanks for that quote Ed.
"Vote, even if you have to hold your nose on the way to the polls." — Pierre Trudeau.

and vote no matter what.
ad.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:53 PM

I always vote, just for the fun of it. But I don't expect it to change anything, because the people in my riding will always elect a Conservative, even if all the conservatives can find to put on the ballot is a dog or a chimp. (Apologies to Chongo!) I think I last voted for the Conservatives when Mulroney won the first time, and I've never voted for them since. I wouldn't vote for them now if they got down on their knees and begged me to. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Crowhugger
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 05:29 PM

I always vote but in my riding it only means putting it on the record that not everyone supports Harper's neo-cons.

It's so confusing that he's so popular here: my neighbours seem nice, considerate and reasonably aware. It never ceases to amaze me how different decisions can result from the same set of given information.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: bobad
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM

If God wanted us to vote he would have given us candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:01 PM

"The next time you see Jesus Christ, ask Him what happened to the just society He promised 2,000 years ago".
In reply to a high school student's question about what happened to Trudeau's promises of a "Just Society", in Regina, Saskatchewan (September 1972)

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: gnu
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:31 PM

Good one bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:51 PM

Hey Bruce, you ought to run for the BQ yourself, maybe across the border in Hawkesbury , Upper Canada... you'd at least get on national news and could promote more relevant things like your music...
who knows ? there's a lot of Franco-Ontarians in that part of the Stormont/Dundas/Glengary riding...which could be annexed come L'Independence... okay salut mon vieux...

and wake me when it's over

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Beer
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:58 PM

And what is that great song you wrote about the Ottawa River separating two great Provinces?
Your the man Ron.
ad.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 12:01 AM

Actually, Jesus never promised a just society. He rather bemoaned the lack of same in his own time, and recommended that people try to change that by becoming more loving in their own behaviour.

STill, it was a clever quip on Trudeau's part. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:55 AM

Stevie 1 goes to tea with the GG today to dissolve parliament. First time a Canuck government has ever been found in contempt of parliament. Fourth election in seven years. Par for the course. Soooo, most MPs get to go home and enjoy lots of functions, throw parties and so on. Stevie 1 gets to travel the country, first class hotels.... aggghhhhh

Any guesses on a date?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Mooh
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM

It's about time.

There really isn't a party that truly represents my interests, but the furthest from my interests is the Regressive Conservative party. I rather like Jack Layton, though I don't think enough Canadians will come to their senses in time to let him lead. Nonetheless, I will Support the NDP. I don't trust that liberal guy, strangely, for some of the reasons the Tories go on and on about, that he seems to be as much a displaced American than a prodigal son of Canada, not that I needed the Tories to point that out to me. On the whole I distrust all conservatives, distrust most liberals particularly the leadership, and generally dig what the NDP say.

I hope and pray that more people vote, but the disaffected aren't likely to vote in an election they think won't change anything, not realizing that if they choose not to decide they have still made a choice.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 09:14 AM

I'd vote for the Hashish Party... they're a compressed and more potent offshoot of the Marijuana Party... not to be confused with the Greens..

where's the Rhino Party when we need them most ? They once advocated joining Cuba and Quebec and calling it Cubec..

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 09:31 AM

""I don't trust that liberal guy, strangely, for some of the reasons the Tories go on and on about, that he seems to be as much a displaced American than a prodigal son of Canada""

It seems like the many years of expensive "USA style" pre election TV "attack ads" worked in Canada.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Crowhugger
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 09:31 AM

Mooh, for a long time I've felt the same way about NDP and acted accordingly but lately they seem to be more in big-l Liberal territory (which isn't entirely bad, mind you). Meanwhile the Liberal Party of Candada has taken over what used to be federal Progressive Conservative territory, before that partied died its humiliating death. I agree with your renaming to Regressive Cons. (my pun intended), and I mourn the the pendulum swinging so far to the right. To balance it, lately I often develop overwhelming urges to vote Green Party.

Bottom line for me is that no election will represent the country effectively under first-past-the-post any more, not with the population in most of the ridings being so large and diverse. In ridings with small pops often the geography is large therefore difficult to represent the many with less access to technology--I'm thinking of the middle and far north and also of first nations.

The confrontational nature of opposition politics perhaps worked passably well in the country's earlier days. But with media and technology being what it is these now and for as long as we have affordable electricity, I think that governance would be far higher quality if our system required consensus and co-operation to function. It's too easy to make snide 5 second sound bites that offer nothing in terms of furthering the most good for the most people but offer peculiar amusement and entertainment, and as long as the system rewards that behaviour, it's what we'll get.

Now that we're so deep into SSB (snide sound bite) politics, it's all but impossible to have a public dialogue about options for a more representative system.

[Great big sigh.]

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 09:49 AM

Interesting perspective

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: bobad
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 09:54 AM

Good observations Crowhugger. The closest we can come to a semblance of consensus governance under the present system would be a coalition government which could come about if the Reform/Conservatives fail to gain a majority. The Reform/Cons will be doing their best to fan the flames of Francophobia in the ROC using the threat of separatism if the Bloc should have any policy making power, which is to the detriment of the ROC as they could do worse than benefit from some of the progressive features of Quebec's social policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:02 AM

Another perspective

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 12:46 PM

"Feel deep inside yourself, you must, Luke. A tingling do you feel? That is the Farce, Luke! Work with it you will. Vote you shall. Use the Farce wisely! Election time it is!" - Yoda

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Mooh
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:26 PM

Ed T...I wouldn't know, I came to that conclusion before the guy even became liberal leader, but when Iggy is on record saying so many pro-American things, I wonder if Trudeau is rolling in his grave.

Crowhugger...Agreed, the NDP have (though sluggishly) moved too far to the right for my tastes. There is no party that represents my interests, the NDP come closest and I trust Layton so that's enough for me, for now. I'm pretty socialist by nature.

It's not just that Harpy may be contemptuous, and I do believe he is, but that those who get sucked along in his wake may be worse, like Baird and Flaherty. That Baird sure has the prissy self-righteous whine down to a fine art; Flaherty looks as condescending as any politician I've seen; and Harper is as dismissive as ever, all of which paints them as caricatures rather than men of character.

All that aside, are there no leaders like Broadbent and Douglas any more?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM

There's one, but he's down in the States. Dennis Kucinich. (and he's not a "leader", technically speaking)

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:29 PM

Ed... first link "The article you are looking for is available to GlobePlus members"

I heard it both ways today... Stevie 1's an asshole. Mike's an asshole (and, of course, Jack who?). I agree. Well, in a way.

But I heard one take from a lady about 80 years old at the grocery store. Paraphrasing... "I hate that Harper but he's going to get a majority because people don't trust that lying son-of-a-gun and you mark my word he's a Johnny Come Home For Dinner businessman who owes a lot down there (US). How dare him criticize the PM for sending those planes to Libya when he had no choice because of the way we cowtow to the Americans these days when we all know he would have sent those planes faster than Harper. They're all liars and they don't care how they spend our money... MY money... YOUR money. $4.49 a pound for smelts... for SMELTS! An election is not what we need right now and that Ignatieff caused it. SAID he was going to cause it no matter what." That's the short version. Glad I was at the express checkout. I thought she was gonna blow a gasket.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Crowhugger
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 02:27 PM

re: @another perspective"
This article misses the crux of the issue, which is, who pays? The people I know who tend to the political left seek just as much smaller government as is supposedly sought by many on the right. I say 'supposedly' because federal Conservative governments have increased spending, deficit and debt far more than Liberal gov'ts.

The difference between left and right in this issue lies with who shall bear the weight of spending, deficit and debt reductions. Much of federal budget balancing has been done by downloading responsibility for programs to provinces & territories, which in turn downloadeded to municipalities, latter which uses one of the least progressive taxation methods: property tax. Each level bragged that they were balancing their budgets with money leftover to pay down accumulated debt. Which most will agree has to be done--debts must be paid to avoid crippling interest & principal payments--but done at whose expense?

It completely escapes me how a decent society can vote to place that load squarely upon society's weakest members while happily maintaining spending in favour of profitable corporations.

I don't mean to suggest this expression of the political landscape includes every complexity of the issue, far from it. Those complexities must be addressed, but without children going to school hungry in this very rich country, with first nations having potable drinking water and effective youth suicide prevention programs, with those on social supports receiving enough to eat nutritiously and pay their heating and housing bills, etc. etc. Which is certainly not now the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 02:31 PM

Sorry Gnu, here it is:

Globe editorial
Let's not make Ignatieff a personal issue
From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Let's begin this election by making a pledge: That Michael Ignatieff should not be an election issue. Whatever the merits of his policies may be, he is, as a writer for the Financial Times has put it, "by any measure an extraordinary Canadian."

Personal attacks on Mr. Ignatieff have been the preferred tactic of his political opponents from the moment he entered political life after a distinguished career as a human-rights theorist, writer and academic. These attacks have benefited from an unfortunate national prejudice that views success abroad with suspicion or, in its extreme form, contempt.

More related to this story
•Harper and Ignatieff: Two leaders, two visions of Canada
•Harper government falls in historic Commons showdown
•Poll shows increasing voter skepticism about Harper government
Many people lament the poisonous atmosphere in Ottawa, and, fairly or unfairly, the ostensibly poor quality of those attracted into political service, especially career politicians. Mr. Ignatieff is the antithesis of this type.

He is indeed an extraordinary Canadian. He was listed as one of the world's 100 leading public intellectuals by Foreign Policy for his thinking on the "tension between security and human rights, the fight against modern terrorism and the philosophy of freedom." (That quote is taken from the citation of one of his 11 honorary degrees.) His books have received many awards, including the Governor-General's Award for Literature and the George Orwell Prize, and one was short-listed for the Booker Prize. The American philosopher Francis Fukuyama called Mr. Ignatieff's Lionel Gelber Prize-winning book, Blood and Belonging: Journeys into the New Nationalism, "a marvellous work that shows the diversity, complexity, agonies and horrors of nationalism with greater depth and insight than most, if not all, academic treatises." He has written for The New Yorker, hosted programs for the BBC, and has held teaching positions at Cambridge, the University of London and Harvard.

No one would argue that Mr. Ignatieff's achievements entitle him to ride a howdah to 24 Sussex Drive, whereby he would descend to take up his seat as prime minister. But at the same time, they should not be thrown in his face in the form of corrosive personal attacks.

The Conservatives have already tried to make Mr. Ignatieff's career – read, his accomplishments – an issue. They have unleashed attack ads with the slogan "Ignatieff: he didn't come back for you." It is an ugly and impoverished strategy. There are many good reasons not to vote Liberal; the leader's character is not one of them. For once, let's debate ideas and not deride success.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:00 PM

Mooh,

I never heard of Ignatieff before he was considered a potential liberal leader.

So, precisely what are the "pro-American" things that you say Iggy said about the US of A that has you concerned (as you noted)?

I recall he said that he admired and respect American institutions, as he lived there for five years. Is it that far off to respect the accomoplishments of the US of A in many fronts, especially since they are our neighbour, have been our military ally, our major trade partner, and have similar British roots and democracy? While I don't discount the differences between Canada and the USA, are there not good things to say about the US of A?

I suspect Trudeau may have been uncomfortable with George W Bush. However, I feel he could have had a good relationship with Obama, and possibly enjoyyed a good intellectual discussion with Ignatieff or Layton (as he did with Tommy Douglas). I do not see that there would be much common ground between Harper and Trudeau.

Here are a couple of Ignatieff quotes that come to mind:

""We have got to plant our standard firmly on the centre-left of Canadian politics.""

""None of us, none of us are going to run against each other. All of us are running against Stephen Harper's vision of Canada.""

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:27 PM

Thanks Ed. Fact is, "some" Canucks see him in the opposite and distrust him. His brief stints on the CBC and other docu's paint him as a saint. But, there is that element of distrust... a carbon tax? What the hell is that? Another tax... piss off.

How do you sell a carbon tax?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Crowhugger
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM

To sell a carbon tax is political suicide. To sell a carbon management plan could succeed. Even if, in the fine print, they are identical.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:49 PM

Gnu, I agree discussiong a Carbon tax during an election campaign is political suicide (the former Liberal leader found out). Is a carbon tax part of the current Liberal platform. If so, I haven't seen it.

However, you are actually paying a carbon tax (maybe not actually called that, but, it is the same thing) now for your electricity, heating oil and each time you fill up your car. I believe you folks in NB just added a few cents to yours a week or so ago. The NDP government in NS added one when they increased the HST after being elected. Few politicians mention increasing ytaxes until after an election. I suspect they are all the same on thet one, except the politically innocents.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:31 PM

Harper has been shown to have no respect for Parliament. Sadly over the years Parliament has become only a forum to count noses to maintain power. Harper insists that the noses of his MP's are brown from being firmly planted in his arse. Bill Casey was kicked out of caucus for having the audacity to represent his electorate. Harper shut down Parliament to maintain his hold on power. A study of German history will show Hitler using a similar trick when he had a minority. Of course Hitler had nothing but contempt for the opposition and used propaganda to demean anyone who stood in his way. The scary part is that a lot of the German people of the day believed his bullshit! I am not calling Harper a Nazi but some tactics like his attack ads sure as hell don't make him democratic or patriotic in my estimation. I do fear that enough people will believe his bullshit to elect him with a majority. That could be the end of what we hold dear as Canadians like universal health care. He is simply not worth the risk!

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:40 PM

Healt case seems to be one aspect that most Canadians hold dear. I am curious as to what others would be and if it has changed over the past ten years?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:41 PM

I don't mean that Iggy isn't well educated, compassionate, or anything else but he is seen as a businessman from the US (yeah, I konw) and, as such, is suspect to a large portion of the voters which is compounded by the fact that he is extremely intelligent which is lost on the average voter when he cannot articulate his proposals in a manner that the average voter can understand.

I tend to think that I am at least "average" and when I watched him try to explain his proposed cabon tax on CBC my impression was that he was either too intelligent to explain it to me in laymans terms or he was stunned as me arse. Either way, that equals stunned as me arse IMO. I understand the carbon tax... what I don't understand is why he could not explain it on CBC. Political suicide indeed. Minded me a Garge... the left hand fools me twice... er, ahhhh

Anyway, it's gonna be a crap shoot... I think it's gonna boil down to how pissed off Canucks are and they have a lot of things to be pissed off about.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:18 PM

Gnu,
I have seen "Iggy" on TV a few times, answering random questions off the cuff from regular citizens during his political junkits and he did quite well.

I do not see that people would see him as a bussnessman (I don't recall he was employed in business. But, I can see people seeing him as an aloof intellectual, (somewhat like Trudeau, who was not lioked by some).

He likely spent as much time in UK as in the USA, as a university professor and reporter. The Attack ads have branded the USA portion, I suspect to tap into anti-USA sentiment in some areas. Michael Ignatieff


I challenge anyone to explain the benefits of a carbon tax in a positive way to the average guy, let alone a profit neutral one that was being toyed with in 2006, mostly to meet Canada's international Kyoto commitmments, which was a major puzzle at the time.

BYW, many people were toying with some form of a carbon tax in the period, even Bill Clinton. Carbon tax If you look at it in todays terms, it seems fairly odd and complex.

Ignatieff calls for 'carbon tax' to aid climate

You probably recall Trudeau's problem with energy, the National Energy Program, that was so umpopular in Alberta and led to national division. Mulroony campaigned to end the program. When he delayed this, it contributed to the formation of the Reform party, which led to The alliance and current Conservative party.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if "Iggy" can connect puts his good side forward, or flops on his face. I suspect he will be the person with the big target on his back, and many more personal attacks on the horizon (versus a focus on the issues and vision).

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:25 PM

Good points Ed.

I do recall "Let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark." As for Mulroney, that's another barrel of mackeral bait that smells too bad to open.

Anyway, I should not comment because I really have not kept up with the scene over the past few years. It's just that I see so many injutices and corruption and plain bullshit on the go that I want to rant and rave and scream and shout.... like the little old lady at Sobeys.

Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Crowhugger
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 08:02 PM

To answer Ed's question about what else Canadians hold dear:

I think average folks believe in equalization payments until some jackass starts calling the recipients freeloaders. It reminds me of public opinion about welfare--no one wants their neighbours starving or stealing their stuff, but then Harris (former ON premier) demonized welfare recipients and suddenly it became okay for welfare to be cut by 20% when it was already below the poverty line.

The reason I think most folks agree with e.p.'s is that they realize earning a sufficient living in Atlantic Canada and the north and some parts of the west is difficult at best for most people, which affects taxable income, and the smaller amount of business in those places means that tax base is pretty darn small as well.

Equalization payments are part and parcel of the more group-oriented approach that used to be the celebrated norm in this country. In the last decade or more that philosophy has been under attack by enthusiastic promoters of 'me first' social attitudes. Perhaps an early spark of that change was back in the 'let the bastards freeze in the dark' era, or perhaps it was more recent. In Ontario I'm acutely aware of "selfishness is beautiful" beginning with the Harris election campaign. People here on the whole accept that "my freedom ends where your freedom begins." It used to be that could happily be read as "my freedom from paying more tax ends where your freedom not to starve begins" and people felt good about that. I'm not so sure any more that is the majority belief.

I'll be very interested to read what other Canadians feel we hold dear...I'd really have to think about it to come up with any more (besides hockey :-)). However the above plus health care represents a huge chunk of Canadian-ness in my view because it is about taking care of the group, occasionally at a cost to individual elbow room, something that would (almost?) never be tolerated south of the border.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: Crowhugger
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 09:39 PM

I just remembered another characteristic of Canada that many Canadians hold dear, which is our routine use of hyphens in self identity. You know, the cultural mosaic as compared to the melting pot to the south. Speaking for myself I very much like how it effectively says that all people after the first nations are from, or are descended from, somewhere-not-Canada.

Like many Canadians I'm descended from far too many somewheres for hyphens to be practical but the newer arrivals can wear as much or as little of their motherland as makes them comfortable and I like that. In the big cities it's normal to see signage in any number of languages, which I like, and it's also normal to hear those languages spoken on the street. There is still an expectation that newcomers will learn English and/or French but I think there is also awareness that they will want to maintain their parents' tongue as well and pass it on to their children and maybe grandchildren. Contrast with decades ago when there was embarrassment in publicly speaking the old language (so I've been told).

Others disagree but I find the common occurrence of hyphens to be a very positive expression of diversity, tolerance and eventually acceptance of that diversity. I know that not all see it or use it that way; some use it to exclude and I don't like that so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Election
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:21 PM

The 'let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark' was national disgrace. In no way was that sentiment harbored by people like me: ordinary folk. I was living in the province from which it originated. When the east was hit by the terrible ice storm back in the '90s (?), I can attest that many people, many towns, many cities and many governments dug deep to get generators, blankets, food and other modern-day necessities to fellow(ette) Canucks living in Ontario and Quebec. They didn't want thanks or praise. They wanted to help, and help they did.

Ed T, that was a beautiful post. As for the challenge, I'd simply say 'ya gotta choice. Die screaming or pay the tax', because making polluting expensive will, in the long run, end polluting.' I think Canadians would understand that. We've tightened the national belt before and we can do it again. Our moms didn't raise no quitters.

Of course. I dream lots.