BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Puck
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:05 PM

The government have wasted too much time and money on this bullshit. They should get on with some real work Ask the people in 'cardboard city' what they think, and they will tell you that there are more foxes in cities biting the arses of street sleepers than any where else. Its like environmental vermin and pest controllers refer to sea gulls as 'land gulls' because they have easier pickings on landfill sites and city streets picking up the fast food leftovers off our streets, and dont seek their food at sea anymore. Mark my words they'll be competing with the foxes and pecking extras arse holes in cardboard city dwellers shortly.
Foxhunting,,,bah! there are far more important issues to use government time for than this bullshit

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:11 PM

If the people who enjoyed seeing foxes ripped apart had any morals we wouldn't have needed to spend any time or money on banning it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:27 PM

Kevin it is relevant inasmuch as it is a lunatic fringe that is involved, and the same is true to a lesser extent regarding fox hunting. As for fishing it is the largest participant sport in the UK, and the 'Game Fishing' section which is what I think you may be referring to when describing it as a posh pursuit is a mere fraction of those who partake of the sport. I don't think that many of the peolple you see lined up along canal banks, and round lakes at numbered pegs fishing in competions are alumni of Oxford or Cambridge universities. It is and always has been a predominantly working mans sport.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:33 PM

So people are going to start on shooting and fishing now. *sigh*
Although I am a fan of neither - I think the government are hardly likely to ban either of these after all the trouble they've had with the hunting act.

Some friends of ours were recently at an anglers meeting, when 'the antis' barged in kicking over chairs and shouting "You'll be next!" - charming!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:39 PM

One trip we made to the area south of Burmuda on weather patrol, some of the crew caught a shark with a chunk of balogna as bait. The idiots cut it open, gutted it, then threw it back and hove the bait and line overboard. That same shark hit the bait AGAIN! So much for fish and pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:47 PM

Unfortunately, when it comes to a matter of Parliamentary time, it could be argued that they are mutually exclusive. There have been endless debates over hunting which have pre-empted time whch could be used for arguably more useful debate in the House of Commons, or legislation. I regret that this situation will probably continue, as just about every Conservative-launched debate or Private Member's Bill for the foreseeable future will attempt to repeal the ban.

With respect - I think not even when it comes to Paliamentary time. There is good work being undertaken even there to improve farming practice and animal tranport and many other things. Not enough and nothing on the scale of the hunting with dogs issue nor anything like the same publicity being given to it. But this is up to us to get our MPs moving on these issues.

But to be fair - most of this energy has rather been from a determined minority lobby who have been prepared to use anyone and every tactic - in order to resist moves against needless cruelty in sport. A sport that they should have ended themselves years ago.

That this political struggle for the right to inflict needless cruelty upon animals for pleasure - still even now continues to occupy so much time, money and energy - when there are so many other important issues to be addressed - demonstrates that this struggle is really about something else entirely. I feel that that concerns for these other issues being expressed by this lobby - are used just as another tactic and are as hollow as they sound.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:00 PM

"...needless cruelty ...". My point exactly. Proper hunting imposes no cruelty.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:02 PM

I wonder how the foxes would vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:09 PM

Funny enough we saw Mr fox as we got out of the car last night. We told the him that in one hours time - the hounds would not be able to chase him and his family anymore.

The fox replied that it was very grateful.........And we said goodnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Puck
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:17 PM

In reply to Shambles and to Brucie, when I drove home from Newport through Llanishen in the suburbs of Cardiff at midnight last night, a fox ambled across the road directly in front of my car and in through the fence and into what I know to be a near neighbour's chicken pen..... Ask the hens how they would vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:35 PM

They would vote for your neighbour to get a stronger pen?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:42 PM

If your neighbours doesn't bother to make his chicken coop secure against foxes, which isn't particularly hard, he's asking for trouble. Rough on the chickens of course , though not as rough as battery farming methods are.

And as has been pointed out frequently, foxhunting has never been a significant method of reducing fox numbers - in fact the reverse is the case, and the foxhunting fraternity would have done much better to point this out, and to argue that the major effect of foxhunting on overall fox populations was to preserve them.

I believe that a move to draghunts would in fact be likely to increase the number of people involved in hunting, by removing the aspect of the "sport" which puts off a great many people who otherwise might wish to take part. Perhaps that is why there has been resistance to the idea among the hunting fraternity, since perhaps the kind of people wh would be attracted would be the wrong type of people. It might even include the sort of people who have been active hunt saboteurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:10 AM

Why don't the pro hunting people just for once say why they are pro fox hunting, why can't they admit the real reason is that they love it and a dead fox is the cream on the cake.

They will give us a million excuses but never ever tell the truth.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:12 AM

I think you'd find most people would say it was just the riding horses/going on long walks around the countryside actually. Maybe only the actual huntsman who cares if they catch the fox or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:34 AM

I so Laura, drag hunting would be a perfectly good alternative, the hunters disput this.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:47 AM

Do they? Oh - well. They're just stupid then.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Tam the man
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:27 AM

Good, it's the best thing.

And it is a class thing, I mean how many dustmen or office cleaners do you know go hunting or used to.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:41 AM

What class would you say farmers were then?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:42 AM

Depends on how many Mercs they own.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:44 AM

real farmers I mean - with proper farms. Not batteries or anything. (y'know - th ones wot come frum round ere and chew straw and wear flat caps)
seriously though...

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:46 AM

There aren't very many of those about any more. Real farming is becoming decreasingly economically viable.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:52 AM

I know a fair few of them. And half of them hunt. (hunted)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 01:29 PM

Latest gossip round these ere parts -
85 horses.
200 people.
1 policeman - munching on the hunt sandwiches and apparently having a very nice time.

*raises an eyebrow* - we shall see.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:02 PM

What? he didn't spot any money earning motoring offences? What is the country coming to?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:03 PM

I don't know how it works in the U.K., but here, if a law is being broken and a cop gets a complaint, he better damn well investigate if he wants to keep his job.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:13 PM

I wonder if the fox hunters who broke the law today will expect it to protect them in the future if they are burgled/attacked/car stolen/etc etc etc? Or are they only above the law when it suits?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:43 PM

Did any of these hunts actually and openly break the law today?

On the TV news - I saw one huntsman holding up a dead fox that they had flushed with the dogs and shot. This is not only supposed to be legal - he was proudly claiming that this method (he was forced into) was more efficient than tearing them apart with hounds - in the number of foxes that could be killed.

If the claim is made that controlling fox numbers was the object of hunting with dogs and this was the reason why the practice was supported by so many angry people - was it done inefficiently by these people - for so many years - on purpose?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Ms Penelope Rutledge
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:11 PM

Ha! Victory has been achieved. I have personally campaigned against this dreadful tradition of fox-hunting all my life, with never a thought that I would not live to see the day it was banned. And now it is. Jolly good!

Winston, of course, is fit to be tied about it. He has utterly no conscience about that sort of thing. Well, too bad.

I am not going to let this good news turn my head regarding that prat, Tony Blair, however. The man is an utter disaster. He was probably just cynically angling for a few votes.

My heart is filled with joy to think that foxes are finally to be left alone to live out their natural lives in peace, instead of being hounded to their deaths by rich, arrogant men in silly costumes.

* PRW-J

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:11 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4279065.stm


Apparently 270 hunts went out today, if what is reported in above link is true. The people on the hunts were very clear about their intentions to flout the law. Although some were not given the opportunity to do so. Not all hunts were followed by anti hunt protestors. They say they have 'evidence' of illegal activity.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 10:53 PM

Excellent comment by Guest Penelope Rutledge about T.B.
Unfortunately her inverse snobbery about "rich, arrogant men in silly costumes" rather depletes her argument.
See my earlier post. There are far more persons of modest means who hunt than ever there are those with a private income.
Regarding the "Antis" monitoring the activities of the Hunts. Perhaps those antis who have never trespassed on private land, assaulted a person or a horse, damaged another's property or otherwise broken the law, whether convicted or otherwise, should stand back and allow others to enjoy themselves.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
Would it not be a good idea to use some of these antis as the lure for a drag hunt?
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 06:15 AM

Perhaps those antis who have never trespassed on private land, assaulted a person or a horse, damaged another's property or otherwise broken the law, whether convicted or otherwise,

That would be me then. There are ways of protesting and sabotaging without breaking the law. Going for a nice long walk in the country, down legal paths and bridleways, across fields with the landowners' permission, whilst dragging a nice bundle of aniseed soaked rags is not against any law and in fact, since the 'Right to Roam' act, is even easier to do!

I'm all for people enjoying themselves, but not for the sake of cruelty or willful damage.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:57 AM

I'm a man of modest means and I can't afford to keep a horse or a pack of dogs. Pardon the pun, but that dog won't hunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 09:19 AM

Not all fox hunts are conducted from horseback, some are done by people on foot, with dogs of course.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 10:07 AM

The only hujnting I am at all familiar with(though I've never participated) is in the Lake District. And people do it on foot, as Glok rightly points out. So if you feel motivated to vban foxhunting becaue you dislike people with red coats and horse, you are being a little unfair on the footpacks.
    A lot of anti-hunt people seem to think there is a serious constitutional risk to the country if the law is not enforced. Couldnt agree more, laws should be enforced rigorously. Perhaps some of you are unaware that stopping on the pavement and talking to a friend is illegal. As is the habit of 15-year olds kissing each other. So if you happen to see either of these activities taking place, do pop round to the nearest police station and report it. I'm sure your public spiritedness will be enormously appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 10:18 AM

Perhaps some of you are unaware that stopping on the pavement and talking to a friend is illegal. As is the habit of 15-year olds kissing each other.

But neither involve ripping live animals apart.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 10:35 AM

Very perceptive, GUEST, spotting that standing on the pavement does not involve being cruel to animals(unlesss, of course you happen to be standing on one at the time). My point(I am surprised you didnt undertand it) was that all these activities are illegal, but it doesnt seem to cause any serious problems that they are not rigorously enforced.
   And I wish people wouldnt keep trying to drag in the cruely issue. You can be exceedingly cruel to foxes in all sorts of ways, perfectly legally. This legislation merely stops people chasing them with dogs.
   Interestingly enough, it is perfectly legal to keep a pack of foxes and train them to hunt other foxes. Which seems to dispose pretty convincingly of any suggestion that the law is something to do with cruelty. It also seems odd to me that it stops you chasing hares, but not rabbits. And I believe an unfortunate error in drafting the bill makes it legal to chase foxes if you shoot them afterwards, but not if you let tjhem go when you catch them. That seems to me rather perverse, if your motivation is to be nice to foxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 10:44 AM

Guest Milk Monitor:

I read the article you linked to, and could find no basis for your claim "if what is reported in above link is true. The people on the hunts were very clear about their intentions to flout the law"

One quote: The Countryside Alliance called on hunt supporters to meet as normal, but vowed they would stay within the law.

Another: Mike Hobday, from the league[against cruel sports], said video evidence of the law being broken was to be passed onto police.

"Our evidence suggests that most hunts did operate within the law, many meeting and promptly going home and others peacefully exercising their hounds or drag hunting.

"However, we have received reports of what we believe is clearly illegal activity by a number of hunts across Britain."

Are you hoping people will accept your assertions without reading the article?

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:36 AM

The last sentence you quoted is what I was referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:48 AM

Milk Monitor: the quote doesn't bear any connection to what you said.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:51 AM

Ah Greg my friend you mustn't confuse peoples prejudices by the use of logic to refute their statements. It is legal for a pregnant woman to urinate in the street, and I believe for a carter to do the same against the wheel of his wagon, providing it is not done in a provocative manner. Can't remember the last time I saw either; football supporters, well that's a different matter altogether!
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:12 PM

In my 'anti' perspective it bears relation. If the hunters are happy to act within the law why do some of them want it repealed?

They could have gone out yeterday and acted within the law, which no doubt alot of them did, did they need Kate Hoey on her soapbox, being very clear, that they would continue to do so until it is repealed.

All that will do is deter those who may have taken up the sport of drag hunting, because they don't wish to be associated with the 'minority' who are unable to accept the ruling.

I realise that it isn't newsworthy to have had someone air that view, but maybe it wasn't particularly representative of the 'majority' to have had Kate's opinion on TV?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 03:19 PM

Hmm.... Don't know too much about the intricacies of fox hunting, but it seems to generate a lot of heat on 'Mudcat'. If this is a reflection of how this law was brought about then it's a bad piece of legislation. Passionate politicians are a bloody dangerous bunch if they don't temper their emotion with a bit of common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 03:33 PM

Greg - the law does stop people chasing rabbits. It is now illegal to hunt, with more that 2 dogs etc etc, 'any wild mammal' (and in their definition of 'wild' they have included domestic. *raises eyebrow* presumably so people can't breed animals specifically for hunting them. So no cat-hunting anyone!)

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 03:39 PM

If you are interested...

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:03 PM

The bottom line is that anyone who finds or agrees with all these endless 'red herrings' is defending a sport where inflicting cruelty for the fun of its particpants is thought to be acceptable.

It NEVER can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:40 PM

Anyone who believes that UK police have been investigating, and prosecuting, all reported crimes during the last twenty years must have been living in Outer Mongolia, or some secluded funny farm.

We have a system known as screening, which allows the police to ignore crimes when they see little chance of getting a result which would justify the expenditure of cash and resources necessary.

If you are mugged, or your car is stolen, they will give you a crime number for your insurance company, but there is very little chance that there will be any real investigation, unless they believe that a series of similar crimes are the work of the same criminal(s).

If they do catch someone, the CPS will not permit a prosecution unless the evidence is such as to provide a virtually certain conviction.

To think that any great effort will be made to enforce anti hunting law is naive in the extreme.

I can't recall the British people ever being asked if they minded that their police force should decide whether laws should be enforced, and criminals punished, but take my word for it, it happens every day.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:48 PM

BTW I am definitely against hunting wild animals, but I am also against making laws to force others to conform to my beliefs.

Bit of a quandary really.

Perhaps we might compromise, and outlaw hunting animals, but declare open season on politicians, and tabloid journalists (Grins).

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:52 PM

Guest Puck,

I think the chickens would like a more secure pen.

Let me see: I'm in an area that has coyotes, fox and other predators. I raise chickens. Yep, guess I'll just leave sone open areas to let the predators in. Sounds like a plan, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 08:13 PM

Don, imagine the scenario...Mr.A spends an afternoon on his horse hunting a fox until it is too exhausted to run. He then watches as it is shredded by the hounds. On returning to the carpark where he left his 4x4...it is gone. What does he do?

He rings the police and obtains the crime ref number for his insurance company.

Why does car theft have a crime refernece number? Because the law states it is a crime to take someones vehicle without their consent.

Nobody mentioned they expected the perpetrators to be caught, let alone convicted. But Mr.A as a victim of a crime is covered by his insurance for his loss.

How happy would Mr.A be if the police said, " Sorry old bean, we've decided not to do car crime today, try again when someone else is on duty."

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 08:19 PM

So, some "hunts" are conducted on foot? Well I dont give a rats ass if they go on their knees! It is cruel barbaric and damned unnecessary. Come out of the dark ages!