Talking and other session etiquette

Subject: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Stu
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 12:14 PM

If a session is held in a pub, is it OK to talk when people are singing or playing tunes? Where do you draw the line?

People are always chatting in pubs, and if there's a session on the go is it reasonable for the musicians to tell people (including other musicians) to belt up because their song is being sung or a set of tunes is in progress.

I'll set out my stall from the outset: I think musicians can talk as long as it's not intrusive, or is on the fringes of the group, and there's sod all you can do about punters chatting.

I mean, they're not folk clubs are they?

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 12:19 PM

In sessions I've been in, the general rule is to chat away through the jigs & reels etc., quiet for songs (if it's the kind of session where people occasionally sing), lies, and sometimes solo pieces like slow airs.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 12:27 PM

If its a session in a pub you cant expect the ordinary customers to treat it like a Concert Hall.Obviously.the people involved in the session dont shout to each other when someone else is playing/singing

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Mad4Mud
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 12:33 PM

People usually go to pubs to drink and socialize. If you are part of a session I think it's unrealistic to expect everyone around you to pipe down just because you've decided to share your music with them. If the pub scene is too loud for the session, the session needs to find itself a quieter location.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Pied Piper
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 12:41 PM

Non-combatant Pub goers should NEVER be told to shut up. A pub is by definition a Public space and if you're worried about them not listening go to a Folk club instead.
If musicians at the session talk when you play and don't join in you're not playing the right kind of stuff, or they don't know it. But don't let it worry you, persevere if you think the tunes are good and eventually some one will join in and the rest will follow (might take a few tries though, but playing on your own in a session strengthens the spirit).
Another approach might be to take up the Highland Pipes and then you don't have to give a stuff if anyone talks or not.

All the best pp.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Bert
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 12:44 PM

That's just one of the reasons I stopped going to the Philadelpia Folk Song Society.

Half the crowd would go there just for the food and to chat. The noise around the food table would often drown out the singers.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: treewind
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 01:10 PM

There are sessions and sessions, aren't there?
For the tunes-puctuated-by-the-odd-song type of session it's fair enough to expect talking during tunes and reasonable to expect some quiet for solo songs.

Last night I was in a session that was definitely a singaround - participants took their turn to sing or play. There were a few quiet listeners. There were one or two present who may have been listening some of the time, but that didn't stop them feeling free to engage in loud and drunken conversation for time to time and someone tried to shut them up. Unreasonable? I don't think so - the session was in (and pretty much filling) a side room and there was a large main bar where there was noise and talking and plenty of room.

If a session wants quiet it shouldn't be held in a one-room pub - pretty obvious really.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 02:27 PM

As you can see, one size doesn't fit all, but, as Paul Burke said, it's generally (not exclusively) the tradition to quiet down for singers. At the Starry Plough sesion in Berkeley, CA., run by Irish singer Shay Black, the rule is complete quiet from all patrons when there are singers. Being a regular Sunday night session, with three short periods set aside for singers (who are called to sing by Shay) the quiet is the expected norm. Shay, though, has the respect and reputation as a singer that he can pull it off, so most of the non-musician pub goers cooperate well with the format. Newcomers pretty well follow what everyone else is doing, with the rare occasional person who doesn't like it getting up and leaving (I've seen that once in the last two years).

Tunes are another matter. On occasion there's a solo that begs for general quiet, but it's asking too much from nonmusic-loving patrons and listening patrons alike to quiet down for the tunes, as noted in other posts. Talking through tunes is par for the course, and I think most session musicians understand that pub goers come to drink and socialize as well as listen, and many are not there to listen at all.

I'd say just go with the flow with how each pub session works, and if a particular format doesn't work for you, seek out those pubs which run things more to your taste.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 03:27 PM

Whilst we can unfortunately accept that talking (and shouting) through sets of tunes by participants is the general rule, it does not mean that is should be acceptable. It is rude and distracting.

I am particulally upset when I find the worst offenders to be singers present, who expect and would be mortified not to receive silence from the same instrumentalists whose tunes they happliy chatted all over. If a different example was given by these singers, the backgroud noise that require calls for silence to enable a singer to be heard, would probably not be neccessary.

I find that instrumentalists usually do respect the singer's wishes. It is a shame that this respect and consideration is not generally reciprocated.

One cannot and should not expect folk in the pub to be silent for a song, but again, it is my experience that the SHHss noises do tend to silence the whole bar and also ensure that the singer is now the centre of attention.

When the singers have finished and joined in talking again, the background noise is very soon back to normal.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Caz
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 03:49 PM

I agree Stigweard when you say "...I think musicians can talk as long as it's not intrusive, or is on the fringes of the group..." I also think it's OK for singers to do the same. I sometimes talk but when I do I am very sure to keep the noise down and try always to be aware of what is going on around me, it's just a case of good manners and respect.

However, I don't think you can tell none musicians and singers (the general public) to shut up because a pub is a pub and the louder you play or sing the louder they will talk. Instead use it as a tool to your advantage. When there is noise hone in your concentration skills and this will help to shut out those making the racket. I used to have a problem but quickly taught myself to ignore them. Now I find that I can concentrate quite well on what I am doing if it's a solo or on what others are doing who join in. It's quite easy with a bit of practice and it enhances the enjoyment because after a while you don't notice others chattering.

Carole

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 07:26 PM

I have found that the thing that musicians do nearly as well, if not better than making music, is to talk. There is nothing at all wrong with this but trying to combine the two, when the main object of a session is to make music, does not make a lot of sense to me. As neither tends to get done very well by combining two separate activities.

In a pub you are never going to get a church like hush and it is supposed to be fun and should be, but it is seldom that there are not other parts of the pub where you can catch up on the gossip, without talking over the music. The best solution is to find such a place to talk that does not affect the main point of the gathering, which is making music.

Is not, before the music starts or at the end, the best time to catch up with friends?

The pub is available for talking most of the time but usually only one night a week (or less) for music making so why not make the most of that one night to make music? You can always make a date to meet up with the folk you meet, on another night of the week.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:37 AM

A good pub session needs an area reserved for the music making. A landlord who will not provide this does not deserve the session and the cash it generates for him.
Session members who forget themselves just need reminding. I can only sing unaccompanied and without mics can cause me problems with a quiet song. I try to make eye contact and make a pleading (not angry) expression. It usually works for me. It helps that I stand, and sing eyes open.
Keith.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:46 AM

I've done a fair bit of pub playing in my time[says the grizzled veteran----!], the instrument being accordion, and nearly always with vocals. Most of the time I was there "on spec" ---i.e. not hired. Without fail I ended up with a circle of patrons who 'cottoned on' to the music, but if the cry "order for the singer" went up I immediately stopped playing. Pubs are for folks socialising; those who wanted to listen to music did so, those who were there for a blether carried on blethering. And that's as it should be. The would-be 'm.c.' nearly always got the message.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:03 AM

The blues club I go to has a sign on each table saying "please talk quietly while the band is playing" and the noisy casuals who come in for food and chat rather than the music do tend to get glared at by we old fogey regulars who come for the music (but being terribly British, of course we don't say anything).
Some bands turn up the volume which just makes the offenders (and it tends to be the women)shriek louder.
The best response was by visiting US bluesman Lightnin' Willie who just kept playing softer and softer leaving the offenders shrieking in the silence which embarrassed them into quieting down. As he had a wireless radio amp on his guitar he also worked the room, sat down at the table with the noisy party and used one of their beer bottles as a slide and won them over by sheer charm, whereas if it had been me I'd probably have decked them (maybe my interpersonal skills were why I got retired early!).
RtS

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 05:02 AM

I don't think most people are capable of concentrated listening for hours on end - and chatting in a pub is inevitable. I like the music to be the accompaniment to the evening rather than the absolute focus. Most people are enjoying the music whilst they are chatting anyway. So long as they don't get too loud I think that's fine.

Having said that, when I'm singing I've been known to be completely oblivious to whole dramas unfolding mere feet away from me - so a bit of chat never bothers me.

Kris

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: My guru always said
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 05:05 AM

Good points & opinions above.....

For myself, if I sing in a pub & it goes quiet I'm flattered. If there's still a 'hum' then next time I'll try a different style or song.

It's not for me to impose silence on another person's space although it's nice when it happens & I feel cherished.

Now smoking's another part of etiquette - any thoughts?

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 05:40 AM

I don't think most people are capable of concentrated listening for hours on end - and chatting in a pub is inevitable. I like the music to be the accompaniment to the evening rather than the absolute focus. Most people are enjoying the music whilst they are chatting anyway. So long as they don't get too loud I think that's fine.

On most occasions, with the notable exception of performances in pubs, we would not dream of talking through the performance and perfectly able to concentrate to get our money's worth.

The problem is I think, that (loud) music in pubs was continuing the (loud) music in discos, which we habitually just shouted over.

It could be a habit we could change and maybe should change?

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Pied Piper
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 05:45 AM

Spot on Boab and My guru.
   A good singer will shut a Pub up without any leaky gas mains. If someone shushes me in a pub my first instincts are to punch their lights out. This kind of authoritarian arrogance takes away from people the right to respond naturally to a good song sung well.
   If folks talk when you're singing, then your not good enough, simple as that.
   I don't see why anyone should sit in silent rapt attention as someone murders "Dublin in the rare old times" at 1/4 the normal speed and forgets (or more likely never bothered to learn) the 3rd verse and so repeats the 2nd three times.
   Performances like this killed a lot of folk clubs and I'm buggered if I'm going to meekly accept it in a Pub session.
    All the best PP

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 06:21 AM

I think that's what I mean though - its hard to sit and concentrate through a varied set of performances, some of which will be too similar to eachother or not really of any great quality. Its a little harsh to say that if people talk when you're singing then you're not good enough - they might be chatting because they lost interest two performers ago. Another factor is that some people will always do the same song, or sing in exactly the same style, each week - and then it gets very hard to listen attentively because it becomes boring no matter how good the execution (ok there's probably some exception that proves that rule).
In general a pub session is not the same quality as a properly planned and executed concert, and neither does it need to be. A pub session is a social occasion as well as a musical event - and if that's not the intention then what is it doing in a pub?

Kris

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Pied Piper
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 07:12 AM

Hi your majesty.
       Perhaps a bit harsh, but if I where to sing at a session (and I have occasionally done so) I'd pick my moment carefully.
   All the best PP.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 08:33 AM

Roger the Skiffler, you sound like another who has had to endure ladies quacking endless , "I-said-to-her-and-she-said-to-me" stories at each other, without regard to the performers or the rest of the room. Sorry, Mrs. Cardboard-Cutout, but Sartre it isn't.

Pied Piper, I consider that there is one sector of humanity which any musician worthy of the name would be proud to slaughter without remorse or pity. I refer to teenagers with mobile phones, who delight in showing off the ring tones to each other at absurdly loud volumes, while musicians are performing.

One hulking great bass player whom I am acquainted with, did successfully appeal to the finer instincts of some of these people. He went over to them and asked, "What would you like to be if you grow up?"

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Stu
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 09:08 AM

I agree entirely with King Brilliant – what are pubs for if not socialising, and live music should be a part of that experience.

I have recently been to sessions where comments have been made by some of the clique present to the effect people (not I, I hasten to add) should be quiet when songs are sung or tunes are played, especially the other musicians. In this respect I think it is about good manners, and so it should be, but I guess I'm fed up with some musicians who are so self-important they may well disappear up their own arses.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:32 AM

Our sessions are almost exclusively instrumental. The only time we do songs is if they are requested by someone in the audience. We've found that if you tell a tableful of people requesting a song that the room is too noisy, and they really want to hear the song, they will take it on themselves to request quiet from the other patrons.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:07 AM

I remember dear old Alex Campbell said once (only once?) "I don't mind you talking when I'm singing, but if you talk when I'm talking...!"

I've heard of sessions with mainly musicians, where the musos all turn their backs and talk when a singer gets up, which is bloody rude IMO. I don't go to music sessions because I can't play fast enough to keep up and I can't jump in fast enough to sing; I've never actually been talked over yet.

Generally, I don't approve of people talking when someone is performing, whether it's a song or a tune. I prefer to pay attention, unless it's really bad; and even then I always remember when I was still starting out, and try and give him/her/them a chance.

My daughter's ex-boyfriend is in an electric band, some style of "metal". We saw them at an outdoor gig and they were LOUD; it was uncomforatble for me. His mother insisted on trying to tell me something, and ended up shouting in my ear: I still have tinnitus in that ear after two or three months (and I still don't know what she said).

Steve

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:52 AM

I don't play in bars - too much noise for this back porch picker -

Steve

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:59 PM

I've heard of sessions with mainly musicians, where the musos all turn their backs and talk when a singer gets up, which is bloody rude IMO

Steve it would certainly be rude if such things were to happen. Perhaps we could hear from someone who has actually experienced such a thing before yet another posible 'urban myth' joins the rest? It has not been my experience but it may possibly be understandable (if unforgivable) if it did happen, as you had heard it.

Perhaps, under certain conditions it may be considered as rude to stand up to sing? If this were so, a response as you have heard it, would certainly be rude but maybe a little understandable? For there may be a real fear of how many others are going to stand up and also impose their singing on the gathering? It would be surely a shame to force people into such a rude response, by an ititial act of rudeness?

I have never been presumptious enough to assume that a non instrumental song sessions was just waiting for me to burst in and show off my talent on the banjo. So I have never actually tried to impose this style of music on such a thing but I would not be too suprised if my set of reels were to elicit a less than enthusiastic reception. For I would have been rude.

Unfortunatly it has been my experience that many singers still seem to think that the evening, for instrumental players in a tune session, is not complete without a song (and that this song must come only from them). It does not seem to occur to them that many of the players are also singers and perfectly able to provide this missing element, if it was thought by them to be neccessary.

Is the real problem one of the idea, that seems to be accepted as unchangable, that (over loud) music in pubs is just the background to the main event, rather than the main event itself?

I am not a kill-joy by any stretch of the imagination, but I do not think that music should provide background to anything.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Declan
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 12:46 PM

The answer to this is "it depends".

I don't think you're ever going to get regulars in a pub to be absolutely silent for a whole night. You might get silence for the three or four minutes it takes to do a particularly quiet song or tune but thats about as much as you'll get. If the punters who have not come to hear the session are being regularly shushed, they'll end up getting upset about it.

If the session is in a particular room or a corner, I think its not unreasonable to ask particularly noisy people if they wouldn't mind either staying quiet or moving to another part of the room. If this isn't feasible then you may have to live with the fact that you've got a noisy crowd in tonight and save the quiet solo for another night. If it happens on a regular basis you should probably start looking for a new venue.

I think proximity to the session is the important thing. If someone wants to have a long conversation at high volume they shhouldn't do so while remaining sitting in the session circle. I don't mind a quiet conversation but shouting or talking loudly so something can't be heard is bad manners. And musicians and singers can often be the worst offenders.

Remember people go to the pub to drink. If you're in a public area, its always going to get noisier as the night goes on, unless you're very lucky, so if you're going to do something particularly quiet, the earlier in the night the better.

People in pubs tend not to be fully rational especially as the night wears on. There are many people who go to a pub because the session is on and then don't listen to a single note. I don't understand that but it happens. I personally find that its hard to listen to anything if you're mouth is open. And then when the session is over the noisy ones tell you how much they enjoyed it !

If you're a singer or musician you should exercise a bit of common sense. One thing that gets right up my nose, and I've seen it happen many times is where a group of singers talk loudly through an entire session of tunes and then demand silence for a song at the end of the night. Do as you would be done by !

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 01:07 PM

Sadly Shambles I have experienced just what Steve Parkes referred to and over time the singers just got so fed up with not being listened to that the session changed from being a singing session with some tunes to being wall to wall music with very, very few songs. It is hard to sing over a loud pub especially if you are not a strong singer or if you are trying to sing a quiet song. Noone can expect people just in for a drink to remain silent but it would be expected of fellow musicians to at least give some thought to the volume of their chatting or to take it away from the immediate area of a session.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: GUEST,Sharon G
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 01:55 PM

I generally agree with those who commented that you're in a public place, and so it's reasonable to expect some talking to go on. We as musicians do have a choice in the venue for our session, and if we're going to be in public, then we need to accept the public....or have a quiet, intimate house session. We as musicians should be respectful to one another, and keep conversations quiet or away from the main session activity, but I don't think it means being a silent audience if we're not joining in on a particular tune.


I'm not a singer, but think it is respectful to a singer to be quiet and listen to the words. People who are not familiar with traditional music but just happen to be drinking and socializing can't be expected to quiet down- they are outside of the whole concept. Yet it's amazing how many of them do quiet down to listen.

I used to think that a session was about playing tune after tune almost non-stop.   Having expressed something to that effect to a senior traditional musician, he replied "It's not the tunes, it's the chat". It gave me a lot to think about, and I have since learned to place a greater value on the conversation that are interspersed between tunes.   An analogy- sometimes what makes a tune great is the space between the notes, not the notes of the tune.

Sharon

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: GUEST,Claire guest
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 03:13 PM

Funny, I just read this thread and there is my band mate Sharon, right before me. I aggree with everything she said... so now I don't have to say it, but here is a singer's.....

I often sing at our local session and have sung in sessions in Ireland last year. I have a couple of comments to add. When I sing at a session, I dive into the song. Although I am oblivious to much of the crowd I am aware of ever widening circle of attention forming around me as I sing. I want to reach those people, to give them my song. Sometimes that quiet area is bigger or smaller depending on so many variables out of my control (the drunk guy at the bar, the table in raucus conversation, etc.) If the circumstance are right, it is my connection with the emotion of the song (and I am not talking about emotional singing, but what is happinging within me) that focusses peoples attention and can occassionally quiet the whole bar. I don't think they even really get the words, but I do and that is what counts.

I point this out because touching the song and giving it to others is the motivation for singing (in my case). If that raucus table is having fun, I don't worry about it, I just breath toward those that are listening. Sometimes it feels like I and the respectful musicians around me are the only ones that are listening and that is ok with me. There will be other times.

That said.... I choose my session songs carfully. I choose to sing only a couple an evening and I choose to sing them in pace with the rest of the tunes being sung and sometimes I just sing an up tempo fun song because I feel like it. If the bar is loud, others are often more worried about it than me, but I guess if that were always the case, I would feel differently.

Of course, I really really appreciate it when others listen.

Claire

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 05:52 PM

Sorry to hear that Mrs Duck. The only thing to do under circumstances where people are rude and intentionally so, is to find another venue which will be better suited and the people better able to cater for singing. Sad that it comes to this.

Could it be that one of the reasons that singers insist on singing when it is obvious that the evening IS a tune session, is that they know they will usually receive attention, silence and a warm reception after the song, if only for the fact that one song is welcome, to most of the folk in the pub, including the staff, as a change and as novelty value to wall to wall tunes?

Is this ever a calculated action on the part of the singer, for this attention and reaction? It would sometimes appear to be.

I think we generally accept, from comments made here, that song after song in an open pub bar, no matter how skillfully performed or timed, does struggle for the above kind of attention and reception as the evening progresses.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 07:13 PM

I think its all been said already. My own view is that "best of order" should be expected from participants.

If the participants want to cut out noise from other pub users then they must negotiate a dedicated space with the landlord.

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 07:31 PM

I too, have experienced the turning of backs on me, the singer, and even tuning up and then STARTING A TUNE in the middle of my song. Sometimes I see that person in sessions and take great delight in interrupting her!

LTS

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: GUEST,Bill
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 07:57 PM

I suggest a few of you get together and play a combination of instruments banjo guitar and possibly pipes or melodian. If you are louder than them they have got to listen.
Bill

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 08:44 PM

I too, have experienced the turning of backs on me, the singer, and even tuning up and then STARTING A TUNE in the middle of my song. Sometimes I see that person in sessions and take great delight in interrupting her!

Perhaps a tune player may consider that you have started (an unwelcome) song in the middle of their tune? BUT!

If there IS a war going on between singers and instrumentalists, and it would appear that there is, in some quarters, perhaps the fist shots of peace have to be fired?

I speak as a singer who is quite happy to play tunes and listen to others sing or play. Because of this, I refuse to take side, even though it may appear that I am a little hard on singers in this thread (and others).

If I am it is simply for the reason that although some singers well understand why a song from them may not be always welcome, they rather unfairly seem to see this as 'snotty' instrumentalists conspiring together, for the sole reason of preventing them from singing (not that there are not such beings). Are there no 'snotty' singers?

If someone insists on imposing a song where and when it is clear that the majority of participants are perfectly happy and do not need to sing songs, they should not really be suprised if their questionable ill-manners are reciprocated.

As in most conflicts, the two sides (if they are so divided over this issue) have more that unites them that which devides them. The common ground is there and should be looked for. There is, I think basic a lack of understanding of different requirements.

It is fairly simple. One is more about participation, the other is more about performance.

Tune players need fellow players more than they need an audience.

Singers need an audience more than they need fellow players.

Turning one's fellow players into an audience is not much appreciated if or when a show-off instrumentalist does a 'star turn' to their fellow players, when they have come to join in.
It should hardly be suprising if being (repeatedly) turned in to an audience by singers, is not much appreciated.

When these different requirements are recognised, it should be possible to co-exist in peace, shouldn't it?

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 08:55 PM

fist shots of peace???

Subject: RE: Talking and other session etiquette
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 11:31 PM

Shambles, I think "fist shots of peace" is the new slogan of the strategic air command :-).