BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,101st Airbourne
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:43 PM

Well done Leadfingers, beat me to it ! See this thread has made the most boring thread ! Just read some of it, God boringgggggggggggggggggg !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 06 - 06:01 PM

All right for you.
I had to read it.
I even had to write half of it.
All the way soldier.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 06 - 06:26 PM

Charlotte,
It was really nice of you to be worried about me.
I am sorry it has put you off posting.
If you join Mudcat no one can pretend to be you.
You know all of us here have argued before. We just keep coming back for more because we enjoy it.
Some of them do have some hate, but there is probably something that happened to them to make them feel like that.

If you like folk music, the top half of the forum is nice.
You will see the same members being friendly to everyone.
Even to me!
I hope we here from you again,
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:32 PM

Keith I posted earlier. Unfortunately MudCat went down. There have been several posts since your post of: 30 May 06 - 12:29 PM here is my reply:

So shoot first gather evidence later. I'm very familiar with that ploy.
At the point at which he was killed he was at best, merely a suspect.


Local residents who witnessed the shooting said the youth was shot dead
while running away from the British soldiers. The bombing they said took
place in another part of the complex. The residents also said the
soldiers responsible for the shooting raked several homes with
indiscriminate gunfire from a terrace facing Whitehall Row. One
eyewitness said 'the youth saw the British soldiers point their rifles
at him and he turned to walk back the way he came. No warning was
shouted before they started shooting.' The witness said when local
people tried to help the dying youth they were assaulted by soldiers,
while other soldiers searched the body. They saw the soldiers take a
pair of rosary beads out of one of his pockets. The witness also said
when one of the soldiers opened the dead youth's hands they found a
packet of cigarettes in one hand and some small change in the other.

I'm very busy right now Keith but keep posting. The more that neutrals know about the situation in N. Ireland the better.

"Some of them do have hate"? come on now Keith your ignorance is showing.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:54 PM

I wish to confirm the above as correct. I spoke to several people who were there. He was a boy that rarely went out according to those that knew him. When soldiers point their SLR's at you and all you hear are the safety catches going off, take it from me it's scary.

He was thrown around the ground that night like a dog, they rolled his body over several times searching it, at one point one held the dead body up while another searched it.

I have been called a lot on threads such as this, one old bow tied fart told me once, we don't want to hear the Irish views here. This was after he told us we got what we deserved ! This wasn't Keith.

I am used to cracks and insults from the deaf and blind members on this site. Christ we are not making it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: John O'L
Date: 31 May 06 - 01:49 AM

The post of 30 May 06 - 11:59 AM was not made by me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: John O'L
Date: 31 May 06 - 01:56 AM

In the 20th century combatants of every colour have disgraced themselves in Northern Ireland. The more you continue to fight about degrees of guilt, the more you will continue to fight about it. Sooner or later a generation has to say OK, well that's enough.
Clearly it won't happen in the lifetime of those posting here today.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 06 - 06:26 AM

Den,
Re message to Charlotte.
I thought she should know that there are many Irish people with good reason to hate the British.
I could have added there are many British and Irish people with reason to hate one or another of the paramilitaries.

Re Michael Marley.
Jean McConville came from the same place. She was snatched from her terrified children by IRA, tortured, executed and her body never returned to her family.
I think that witnesses from there would say whatever IRA told them to say.
They probably preferred him to be an innocent victim, than a youth killed because they had militarised him.
He does appear on IRA Rolls Of Honour as having died fighting.

I share your distrust of the soldiers' statements.
(It is illegal here to shoot at a fleeing suspect.)
They were clearly out of control just because they had been attacked with a bomb.

There is still the forensic pathologist's report and the previous sentence for possessing arms and explosives.
(Sweeney must have confused him with another case)

Having said all that I was wrong to bring this up.
It does not detract from the truth of your post, and is not what I started this thread to do.
Sorry

Jean McConville

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 06 - 08:36 AM

I am still waithing to hear from ex British soldier (Artillery) Billy.

Billy Liar?

Notice the spelling Billy.
You typed LAIR
An easy slip to make.
Divis Sweeney made exactly the same error here

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 May 06 - 10:37 AM

Dear Keith, sorry for my spelling error of February 06. Didn't realise it had annoyed you. Teacher tells off his pupil. You should have brought it up before now, have you been holding this against me, seems as if you are if you remembered four months later ?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 06 - 10:55 AM

Unusual spelling mistake.
Quiet idiosynchratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 06 - 11:18 AM

Would ard mhacha,Bente, Billy, Den, Divis and Macashla please stop posting to Keith A of Hertford. He is entering until multiple names.

Please stop now.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 02:12 PM

If everyone has finished then.
I laid myself open and expected the worst, but the pattern was just question, answer, silence, next question.
No one ever said, "poor answer, you overstated this and were wrong about this and this because..."

The only person to challenge an answer was Englishman Dave The Gnome!

Otherwise all I got was "in a hole" and "tripe"
Hardly shot down in flames.

Then we had the swarm of alter-ego tripping Guests, all reading exactly like Divis Sweeney.
And why were they created? What was the point?

A young sounding Charlotte arrived just wondering what was going on.
She had her identity ripped off and vowed never to post again.
Nice work boys.

Then Den. Straight as a die. No abuse. No nonsense.
His post could be summed up as "The army sometimes did bad things too."
This was backed up with a list of the army's victims, almost all of whom were paramilitary fighters.

You people asked for the opportunity to question me and I obliged, only refusing to ruin the other thread with it all.

You had your chance and you blew it!

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:27 PM

Just watched a programme there on Ulster television about the hired police hitman Haddock. Six ex detectives have come forward and stated that he was responsible for the murder of over 20 people. One said he arrested Haddock after two local people who saw the murder name him, he wasn't masked. The ex detectives were told in the station by special branch to release him ! The UVF have killed 32 people since 1994, and not one person has been charged with any of these murders. The programme stated there was clear evidence of British collusion in twenty of these murders.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:36 PM

My point was that the British were rarely if ever charged for doing the bad things, as Keith refers to murder. And the British continue to do "bad things". They're popping off they're old informers like its going out of style.

Now to the list of victims I pointed to and this is an all new low for you Keith. He would have you believe almost all the victims were paramilitaries. Even now he would try to blacken the names of the dead or in other ways say they deserved to die. There were a total of 197 people killed or murdered by the British army. 88 of them were active members of republican paramilitary organizations. Very few were actively engaged in combat when they died. 109 were completely innocent people.

111 people were murdered by British/Loyalist collusion. 5 were members of republican paramilitary groups and 96 were innocent victims.

So in total the British had they're hands in the murder of a total of 308 people. 205 people were completely innocent. 17 were killed by plastic bullets. A weapon that was deemed to be too forceful to be used in England or the rest of Britain.

Anyway if it makes you feel better Keith. You win. I hope your proud of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:01 PM

If One Wishes for an Answer, One must ask a Question to Find the Answer. If One has ever been Helped with Answers to Their Questions, and They See a Question They can Answer, They will do so.

A series of aliases were used on the above thread. Please remember ...This is a general open forum where you are free to post and members should not get confused as to the aliases one member is using.

I think we will end it now to avoid embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome sans biscuit
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:24 PM

Hi Guys - On a bit of a break from the course I am on and waiting to go for a couple of pints of black stuff:-)

I didn't realise I was the only one to 'challenge the answer' as Keith put it. Perhaps it is an English thing. You need to be English to fully understand the question?;-)

There does seem to be a lot of bigotry towards Keith. Perhaps I am missing something that seems to indicate he deserves it but on this thread I have not spotted it. There is also, undoubtably, lots of bad feeling and lots of reasons for those bad feelings. It is pretty useless quoting statistics about how many people were killed by who. At the end of the day these were all terrible acts of violence that should never be repeated by anyone.

I would like to use this thread to draw a line. I know it will never happen but wouldn't it be something both side forgave each other for their sins and both sides apolgised for their own wrongs. Either real or perceived?

Why not start the movement here? For any wrongs I have written about the Irish troubles. I'm sorry. To anyone who has upset me about the same. Forget it. It's water under the bridge.

Now the. Hows about it? Keith? Ard? Gerry Adams has already done it. I guess we are just waiting for Ian Paisley?

Ah, well. I suppose you are right. May as well get to that bar...

Peace.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 05:03 PM

I wouldn't use the word bigotry.

"He's arrogant, he's pompous,he's opinionated and he believes that everything he says is right, he drives at the Irish to provoke a reaction. "And he does know what he's doing."

Sorry but I feel any derogatory remarks against Keith were sadly self inflicted. His desire to invite the Irish and give them a bloody nose may have caused him to experience anger, frustration and despair when they ignored him.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,DtG still bout biccie.
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 05:26 PM

Sorry, Guest. That looks exeedingly like bigotry to me. You say Keith believes that everything he says is right. Do you not? If not, do you not not believe the post you just made? Is that why you have not put a name to it?

I apologise in advance if that seems pompous or opinionated to you. Do you forgive me? ;-)

Cheers

DtG
(Back from the black stuff and about to retire. See you in t'morn.)

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:09 PM

Dave, "bigotry toward Keith", I'm not sure I would agree. I don't believe that I have treated Keith in a bigoted way. I certainly don't dislike Keith. I certainly do dislike his government. I have mostly spoken out against oppression. I think that the British Government oppressed my people and continue to do so. My bone of contention has always been that the British have rarely been charged with crimes perpetrated against Nationalist people. For God's sake its been over 34 years and Bloody Sunday has still not been resolved. I just find that Keith can't get it into his head that the violence in N.Ireland escalated when the British Government picked an enemy. The enemy as far as they saw was the nationalist people.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:22 PM

Subject: RE: Bloody Sunday
From: GUEST,Keith A at work
Date: 09 Feb 01 - 07:42 AM

Grab, I find your posts full of insight and knowledge, but I note you tacitly accept that the army was complicit in the shooting of Bernadette. Perhaps, who knows? Can we at least exonerate the patrol of paratroopers whose swift arrival on the scene probably prevented her attackers completing their bloody business, and whose prompt and effective first aid certainly saved her life. She herself expressed her gratitude with crates of beer.
On the subject of unsubstantiated allegations, can anyone give the lie to that outrageous but persistent rumour that Martin Mcguinness, once high profile PIRA(admitted at the time Brendy) and now Minister Of Education for Northern Ireland, has privately admitted instigating the shooting on that black day.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:27 PM

Words fail me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:44 PM

Little can be added to a statement like that beggars belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 03:52 AM

I don't think you have, Den. But some have. You have most elequently argued your case rather than indulging in personal attacks. Not so with everyone else.

If, for instance, the nameless Guest above can get past the He's arrogant, he's pompous,he's opinionated and he believes that everything he says is right phase he will probably see that Keith is just a person like you or I. The fact that he has different opinions does not entitle anyone to attack him. Hating someone for their views is the very definition of bigotry in my book.

All I am saying is that if we all saw beyond the bluster, from all sides, the world would be a happier place:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 05:03 AM

To the latest Guest?,
You must have spent hours trawling through all my posts going back 5 years, including all my (fully attributed) Guest posts.
And in all those hundreds (thousands?) of posts that is the worst you can find against me.
And you still could not find the posts that make me a LAIR!
You are a sad, obsessed man.

Den, your post is worthy of a more considered reply than above crap.
I am still thinking it through.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 08:41 AM

Sorry to cut in on this meeting of the mutual appreciation society. I feel it's reasonably safe to see which pole you have firmly placed your colours upon Dave.

This person has made half assed remarks that I entered his thread under a Guest posting with his remarks about spelling errors and to his amazement somebody could actually think like me !
A point which has been pointed out to me by other members that he may know more about than the person he is accusing.


1. Then we had the swarm of alter-ego tripping Guests, all reading exactly like Divis Sweeney.

2. Notice the spelling Billy.
You typed LAIR
An easy slip to make.
Divis Sweeney made exactly the same error here

Well I suppose they aren't as bad as his previous ones which called me a murderer, Joe had to point out his error, which he ignored. Or saying there was blood on my hands !

Neither caused anything but amusement.

My old man used to say. Boy watch the company you keep, some people can and will judge you by it !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:00 AM

Poor Joe will not thank us for dragging him into this, but I think he will be surprised by your last remark Sweeney.
As for the rest of it, I am happy to let people to make up their own minds.
They will note that you chose not to give the quotes.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:26 AM

Den,
I agree with you that Goverments have let down the Nationalist people in the past.
The Stormont mob was completely prejudiced against you and London should have sacked them earlier.
London also did a lousy job but I suggest it was incompetence rather than conspiracy.

I was disappointed by your first post because I had by then acknowledged twice in different posts that the army was responsible for innocent deaths in NI.
I read your list of army victims and the word activist seemed to come up again and again. Look again and see what I mean.
I admit I did not count them all.
Then I recognised a non activist name because it was used by Sweeney, looked further and found that he was one.(Sweeney lied about the Army exonerating him) How many more like that?

You seem to have a double standard Den.
You criticise the army for being in NI but not the paramilitaries whose campaigns of terror kept them there.
Like me you deplore the army's killing of innocents, but do not criticise the IRA even though they killed hundreds more innocent men, women and children than the army ever did.
You complain that some of the paramilitary activists were not actually murdering someone when they were shot, but do not criticise the IRA for gunning down soldiers police and prison officers when they were off duty, with their families, waiting for trains etc.

What is your opinion of the favourite IRA tactic of sending an emergency plea to the police for help, then gunning them down when they arrive?

I do not discriminate between the paramilitaries. The Loyalist gangs showed even more contempt for human life, albeit on a smaller scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:27 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video
From: Divis Sweeney - PM
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 12:34 PM

You neither got your audience Keith nor proved any point.


      There is no indication that the Sept 18 "Divis Sweeney" posts were posted by the member named Divis Sweeney, or by Keith of Hertford. They could have been posted by either, I suppose, but I have no proof either way.
      So quite your squabbling, already.
      -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:33 AM

Den, do me a favour and take the advice I have been given in numerous pm's, ignore this guy. As of now I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:45 AM

I abhor the deaths of all innocents I've made this statement before but I will always stand behind the Nationalist people. You also have double standards, I have never seen you start a thread castigating the loyalists or the army. Even though there have been atleast three catholic teens murdered this year alone by loyalists. Noone ever hears this and certainly not from you. You seem to reserve your right to start negative threads in regard to the Republican side. Keith my point has always been that justice has never been served equally in N. Ireland. I firmly believe that the route problem in N. Ireland has always been the stance taken by the British government. I agree too that off-duty combatants should not be targeted but it happened on all sides to all sides by all sides. If our civil rights had been addressed fairly and equitably I'm firmly convinced that the troubles of the last 40 years would not have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:46 AM

Thanks Sweeney.
I hope people will look at that exchange.
You denied making a post by Guest Divis Sweeney from before you joined.
I then gave links to where as a member you had acknowledged that same post.

The post was where you boasted of killing by sniping.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Roland Wilson
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:56 AM

Keith A of Hertford I remember the derogatory remarks you made last year about Balham and some snide remark about a buliders yard there.
So it's not just the Paddies in the firing line !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 11:13 AM

Den, You say" I have never seen you start a thread castigating the loyalists or the army. Even though there have been atleast three catholic teens murdered this year alone by loyalists. Noone ever hears this and certainly not from you. You seem to reserve your right to start negative threads in regard to the Republican side"

I have never started a negative thread about Republicans either, except the one that ASKED if PIRA might have robbed a bank.


Roland,
Sorry, I don't remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 11:17 AM

Here
is the thread with the exchange Sweeney just referred to.
Starts at 20th Feb.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 11:37 AM

The old Russell and Dorrell building wasn't bombed, it was redeveloped.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 12:07 PM

Just in case anyone is interested, I am taking a break from all this for a couple of days.
Have a lovely weekend everyone.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:27 AM

Did you realy believe that Divis had made those postings, Keith? If so I am in total disagreement - I know Divis quite well (I hope:-) ) and know that there is no need for him to resort to such tactics. Will you please re-address that issue?

Hope you had a good weekend anyway.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:25 PM

I've just waded through the links provided. Sorry Keith. I am as sure as I can be that you are barking up the worng tree. Whatever the in's and out's of your relationship with the Irish I was happy to stand up and say that both sides were in the wrong in many cases. Forget it. Move on.

Until, that is, that unsubstantiated personal allegations started flying about. That is my lot I'm afraid. Whoever started it does not matter. What does is that you are now perpetuating the bad feeling by doing the very thing you rally against - Digging up old dirt and holding grudges. How it looks to me anyway.

Stick to good arguments for or against British involvement and people may not agree but they will respect you. Ignore the goading by nameless guests. Don't sink to the level of dragging in personalities and I will defend your right to say what you want anytime. When it gets to schoolyard 'he said this and she said that' though I don't want to know.

Still hope you had a good weekend though. Weather was good for a change anyway:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:42 AM

Dave,
You are right. I have no proof that Divis made those Guest posts and was wrong to make those heavy handed insinuations.
Divis Sweeney I take it back.
I am sorry.

Perhaps he would take back the accusation that I posted under his Guest name to incriminate him.
Not only was that unsubstantiated, but he knew I was innocent because he made the post himself.

Here is the post in question
detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=1566239

Here is him as a member discussing having made that post. He appologises for joking about it but does not say that he made it up.
detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=1582124

Here is him denying the post and blaming me.
thread.cfm?threadid=88893#1673675

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:21 AM

No apology for me then.
Oh well.
I got quite obsessed about that attack on me back then, but got over it and even posted an apology to Mudcat for going on about it.

I take it you have all finished with this thread then?
Our Irish contributors were so sure they could expose my anti irish prejudice. No chance because I love Ireland and all things Irish.

They seemed to believe that only an anti Irish bigot could dislike what the IRA did. Also that you could not dislike the IRA and also loathe Loyalist paramilitaries.
Even after all the questions, and all my 6 years of postings were vainly scrutinised, Den still thought that I selectively start anti Republican threads.
I have not started one.

True I have not had the opportunity to debate with a Loyalist sympathiser, because none post to Mudcat. In that sense Mudcat is heavily one sided, in favour of Nationalists.

I will miss Billy, even though he called me a liar and could not substantiate it.
He said he had done National Service in the British Army so the youngest he could be is about 70.
He also said he had "attended Kings College Cambridge" even though he could barely string a sentence together. I wonder what his degree was in.

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 09:43 AM

Apology for what? I don't believe I have anything to apologize to you for. I think that you are very creative in your use of language Keith. You said that I accused you of selectively starting anti-republican threads. Thats not exactly what I said. I did say, "You seem to reserve your right to start negative threads in regard to the Republican side". BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA? Would be the case in point. To be honest I haven't done a search to see if you have started others. That one rang a bell.

After I had given links to the site listing victims of the British army. You said that most of the victims were active paramilitaries. Again that was not true. Most of the victims were ordinary people.

What you do quite often on threads regarding N. Ireland, is to misinform. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here Keith and say that this is not deliberate but rather due to a lack of historical knowledge.

Mudcat as far as I see is not heavily one sided in favour of Nationalists. Most British posters seem to be quite the opposite.

Finally you claim that you love Ireland and all things Irish. Why would you then not support the Nationalist claim to self determination.

As I said before Keith somewhere up above. You won. How's that?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 09:55 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Charlotte
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:41 PM

Den that is so wrong to say those things about Keith. I feel he has proven to be a real Intelect and expert on all Irish matters. He is the only one that seems to tell the truth on these Irish threads.
I say well done Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 10:01 AM

No Den, you do not owe me any apologies.Sorry You got that impression. I was talking about the false accusation sweeney made about me back in feb.
Re the list of victims, I admitted not counting them just that the word activist kept coming up. I will go back and count.

Re"Finally you claim that you love Ireland and all things Irish. Why would you then not support the Nationalist claim to self determination."
I do support the Nationalist claim to self determination. I just think that violence is not the way.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 10:07 AM

Guest, Charlotte denied making that post.
What do you suppose was the motive of the real poster?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 12:26 PM

From the list you posted Den

89 are listed as paramilitary activists.
11 were shot robbing banks,shops, bookmakers or in stolen cars.
12 were killed by RUC
2 died after prison beatings
and 1 (Patrick Duffy) shot entering unoccupied house that contained an IRA arms dump.
80 not listed as activists or criminals but including Michael Marley who we discussed, and the child an IRA man subsequently admitted killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 01:47 AM

No reply then.
You did owe me an apology this time Den.
It took a long time to count through those figures, and I found that my perception was correct and that you were completely wrong to say,

"After I had given links to the site listing victims of the British army. You said that most of the victims were active paramilitaries. Again that was not true. Most of the victims were ordinary people."

It was not me who was ill informed.

You keep saying that I have won, but like a teenager saying "whatever" it has no meaning.
You will still not specifically criticise the IRA as you do the army, even though IRA has killed hundreds more innocent men, women and children than the army has.
And you still believe that I am an anti Irish bigot just because I do criticise the IRA, and in spite of all the proof to the contrary in this and the other threads.
So I have not won Den.
I can never win can I.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 04:10 AM

I did critisise Keith when I felt he was off track so let me be the first to say 'Well done Keith'. Back on track and well back on form.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:06 AM

Like John O'L Dave,
you are obviously me!

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:23 AM

Apologize for what? The only thing that I will apolgize for is the tardiness of my reply I don't live on here, I do have a life.

My God man are we not debating here? Have I ever asked for an apology from you? Your figures are wrong. Did you not count those innocents murdered by the British army in collusion with loyalists and British agents. Murder by proxy is still murder. I provided the links above, go back and do a body count. Those sites don't include all victims either. They don't mention the deaths attributed to the FRU as far as I can tell. That may be a thread for another day.

As I keep saying and you keep missing, deliberately or otherwise I abhor the deaths of all innocents. I have also said that the IRA were charged, tried and convicted for acts perpetrated by them. Whereas the army, but for only two cases that I can find, were not. In those two cases the soldiers in question served two years of a fifteen year sentence for murder and were then accepted back into the army. The British army have had carte blanche to do what they wanted in N. Ireland with no apparent repercussion. Bloody Sunday eg. We suffered through state sponsored terror for years. Who did we have to turn to, tell me who?

Maybe that is why I am taciturn in my criticism of the IRA. I never openly supported them but it was reassuring to know that they were around. Otherwise I'm not sure what the situation would have been like for nationalists.

I don't recall calling you a bigot Keith maybe you can point that out to me. I do wonder at times at your defence of a government that would select a number of its citizens and subject them to such horror.

I don't appreciate your inference that I have acted in an adolescent way (that's a little like calling names, no) when I said that you'd won. I believe that you feel you need to win Keith. We seem to be going around the doors and I get the feeling you are reluctant to really listen to what I'm saying.