English Culture - What is it?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 12:37 PM

Typically English Day

The Astronauts 1983

On a typically English day
When the man in the street alway has his say
On a terraced house with no yard
A couple of people are playing cards
And the street outside is a dance hall floor of the lunatic brigade
To help compensate the profits and the losses of the men who'd been self made
And she says "Maybe we should leave this place"
And he says "Watch out I've trumped your ace"
And they put the cards back and quietly fade away
And they both have a doze on a typically English day

On a typically English night
When the announcer on the telly hopes that we're alright
On a terraced house with thatched roof
A couple of people are hoping for truth
Becauase it's getting colder and they're both aware
That thier health is getting poor
And a man in a sports jacket on the TV
Was saying something about the war
And he says if I wasn't confined to this bed
I'd pick up my pistol and go and teach the reds
And she says "I know dear" and quietly turns off the light
And they both have a doze on a typically English night

On a typically English day
When the baying of the hounds keeps the fallout at bay
On a terraced house with no yard
A couple of people are finding it hard
But he says "They can drop all the bombs they like just as long as I've got you
So lay down next to me, hold my hand, lets make love like we used to do
And damn this gout, and damn this leg
I really want to have you and I ain't got time to beg"
So the fire storm slowly came their way
So lets leave them to cry on a typically English day.

(A small offering from the best anarchist punk band ever, no contest).

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:31 PM

You'll find a link to Billy Bragg's book on Albion Heart. You'll find a great many more books on England on the chest of drawers behind me, as I write this, but I love Colin's the best, because he has the greatest sense of humour and a way of talking about England that I find very endearing.

I find it very strange that so many on here, who are divisive and so desperate to put people into 'class' boxes, and keep them there, catawaul at me for not being like them. I don't want to be like them.

George Best, gawd, lovva duck! He's Irish?????? Awww..come ON, you're just joshing me, right? Holy Jumping Catfish, the things you learn on Mudcat, eh?   























Er..I did actually know that, but again, thanks for pointing out the obvious.

And yes, George became an alcoholic, but listen to Michael Parkinson talking of George, a man he loved and admired deeply, and who was a dear and genuine friend of his up until the day George died, and he will tell you that George Best was one of the kindest, most genuine and lovely people he'd ever met. That he was a man who loved everyone, and who loved them so much that every time he went to his local pub, or indeed any other where he was recognised, someone insisted on buying George a drink, and he'd accept, not wanting to seem rude, then he'd accept the next one and the next, because he didn't want to upset people. Michael had seen this happen, and it had made him angry, particularly when people could see that George was three sheets to the wind and *still* they bought him drinks. And it happened after he'd tried so hard to stop drinking too.

In a pretty short time, George found he couldn't refuse the drinks for very different reasons.

It's something that Parky feels very strongly about, that George was led down that unforgiving road by kindness, from those who bought him the drinks, and from George himself not wishing to hurt people. George was nursed for very many years by his young wife, right away from the spotlight, in Ireland I believe, and I think all his wives remained his friends, which says a great deal about a man.

Drink changes many people's personality, but that personality is not the true person inside. George Best was loved by many, for a long part of his life, and those who knew the 'real' George Best, like Michael Parkinson did, stuck by him through thick and thin. Parky interviewed hundreds, probably thousands of the world's most famous people in his career, and yet, he always had a very soft, and very protective place for George, always, in his heart.

I'll take Parky's word on his great friend, thanks, not the words of those above who refer to this man so unfeelingly as a 'pisshead'.




'They' are the ones who for the past two decades or so have made it almost a sin to be English in any way other than 'their' way, as er...can be seen from some of these posts. The ones who feel they know ALL about England, in every minute detail and have decided what is good, and bad about it, and if anyone dare speaks of things they do not like then...they call them racist, to shut them up and make others loathe them. It's called suppression, and for years it's worked quite well, until along came a few people who knew that the Emperor had nothing on, and said so.



'Song for Saint George' written by Gez

It was this time last year when they told us to hide
To hide our St. George Flag away
"Take them down from your windows, they litter our streets
If you don't, they'll be much hell to pay
And we'll fine you if you choose to, so it's best you choose not
It's worse than the Union Jack
For St. George is dead and buried
We suggest you sit down, shut up, and please don't answer back

Just sit down
Just sit down
Just sit down
No, don't stand your ground"

On St. George's Day morning I want to run through my street
Find its Bank Holiday with her parties so sweet
Send my love to my country, be proud of this place
See the flags flown from windows, with a smile on my face
But I fear Monday morn' we'll regret we were born
In this country of green promised land
And we'll trudge off to work with no pride in our heart
And no love for our own countrymen
Oh the Irish - St. Patrick, The Welsh - David's Day
The Scottish - St. Andrew I'm told
Celebrated by all who arouse one and all
Old St. George has been left in the cold

Don't sit down!
Don't sit down!
Don't sit down!
Just stand your ground!

On St. George's Day morning I want to run through my town
Find its Bank Holiday with my neighbours around
Send my love to my country, be proud of this place
See the flags flown from windows, with a smile on my face
I know is I'm small, yet I try to stand tall
For my country on St. George's Day
Raise a glass to Old England my neighbours and friends
So they know that he's not gone away
I'll run with my flag in the cool winter spring
Through the fields and the streets of this land
You can take Old St. George from our windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England

You can take Old St. George from our windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England
You can take old St. George from my windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England"

You can listen to Gez's song right here:

Gez - Myspace



Village greens are very, very bad, it would seem. ;0) And yes, ask Steve Knightley about those 'Agribarons' who are stripping this green and pleasant land...or who were, until the bottom fell out of the housing market.

I heard some good words from Tom Brown's Schooldays today, the film of the book, with Stephen Fry in.

Headmaster: "You, sir, you are a coward and a bully. Gather your things together, then leave this school immediately."

Flashman (puffed up with self-importance says threateningly): "Do you know *who* I *am*?"

Headmaster: "I do, sir. You are a coward and a bully. Leave this school"


Great film.
Great book.
Great way of dealing with bullies.


And a great thing to say to those who, for so very long, have tried to take away our heritage.

This country belongs to us all, colour, creed, bank balance, religion, it makes NO difference. England belongs to her people, so does her history ahd her culture. And I'm perfectly happy for everyone to have their own view of culture and to dislike mine, but please remember, that I also have the right to disagree with yours.

Football and punks are not the be all and end all of English culture.

Get over it.

:0)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:42 PM

I refer you to point 7 of my post of the 19th...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:50 PM

"You'll find a link to Billy Bragg's book on Albion Heart."

That doesn't mean you've read it. Can I ask what you make of Bragg's thesis on the alternative English history of dissent? Because considering that The Progressive Patriot celebrates all you would appear to despise, from punk to football to class warfare, I find it hard to believe it's something you'd celebrate if you truly understood its contents.

What I actually said was that George Best was "the originator of the pisshead, womanising, money-squandering, shallow, cult-of-celebrity lifestyle which has swamped the modern game" - and nothing you've said disabuses me of this notion.

"'They' are the ones who for the past two decades or so have made it almost a sin to be English in any way other than 'their' way, as er...can be seen from some of these posts."

Ypou mean like the ones saying that punk, dissent, class politics and football culture are not particularly valuable or valid aspects of English culture?

You still haven't explained, specifically, who "They" are, or how "they" have stopped you or anyone else saying whatever you like about England or interpreting it however you like. I mean, you work in the National Trust shop, for heaven's sake - purveyor of all that is twee, nostalgic and sentimental about England. Surely if all these class-war yobs were genuinely trying to stop you, or anyone else, from being English any other way than "their" way, they'd be attacking all the NT and Past Times shops in the land...

In fact, no one is stopping you from interpreting "your" England, Lizzie. It's only when you try to shove that interpretation down the throats of people who have a different view that you are met with hostility.

""And a great thing to say to those who, for so very long, have tried to take away our heritage."

Again, who are "They"? it's these paper tiger bogeymen, created by (dare I say it again) the likes of certain newspapers, that's who. Specific examples of who they are and what they're doing to try and take away our heritage, please.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:02 PM

I really don't understand where this certainty comes from that there's a whole cohort of people out there who want to destroy village greens. I've googled it and can't find any evidence to back the myth up...

Even my little bit of Urban Northern has got one. Right next to where we have our traditional music singaround. People sit on it is summer and drink beer and play music and even juggle. Morris dancers have been spotted on occasion. Can I say that bit again? It's urban. It's northern ... and here is is.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:27 PM

Mr. Spleen, now play fair.
With respect, I have every reason (including well reported English cultural evidence) to suspect that you have knowingly cut and pasted that image from Narnia...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:37 PM

I've googled it and can't find any evidence to back the myth up...

Well, let me assure you that we here at The Society for the Abolishment of the Village Green have been trying to stamp out this Village Green nonsense for years. Our feeling is that they conceal the oft spoke of rotten heart of our debased motherland and represent an indulgent misuse of so-called common-land. So far we've managed to spirit away a fair few, stockpiling them in our lockup on an industrial estate in Middlesbrough - but space, as you might imagine, is at a premium. I fear in 2009 we'll have be selling them off, or else donating them to more deserving inner city communities by way of an essential redistribution of our heritage.

Each day you pass the village green
But seldom look my way
Each day I sit just in between
The words I want to say

My love I've viewed you from afar
I'd screw you if I could
Meet me tonight by the miller's stream
'Neath mossy willowood

(The Amazing Blondel)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:57 PM

So far we've managed to spirit away a fair few, stockpiling them in our lockup on an industrial estate in Middlesbrough

Berwick Hills? Grove Hill? Pally Park?

Seriously, Lizzie was right in one respect about many people in Britain being filled with hatred. Where she was wrong, IMO was in identifying the source of the trend. It was not punk but Thatcher. Thatcher herself was filled with hatred and her mission was to take on and defeat (as she saw it) those she hated -mainly on the left. In the process she did a great deal of damage to this country and we are still feeling the effects of her policies.

The sad thing is that so many people still think she was wonderful.

As to punk, it was never my favourite musical form but that's a matter of personal taste but it is interesting to see what has happened to some of those involved in the punk movement.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 06:34 PM

We at the Society For Chopping Off Norman Tebbit's Balls are dedicated to the preservation of village greens which incorporate ponds, ducking stools, stocks, catherine wheels, racks, gibbets and any other Olde English apparatus suitable for eliminating Tories and employees of HMRC.

Our next campaign will, therefore be to liberate those village greens detained without trial on Teesside and utilise the freed-up storage space to impound 'heritage' tat and crap CDs.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 06:54 PM

"What I actually said was that George Best was "the originator of the pisshead, womanising, money-squandering, shallow, cult-of-celebrity lifestyle which has swamped the modern game" - and nothing you've said disabuses me of this notion."

I find 'pisshead' an abusive term. Each to their own though.

No, the cult of in yer face footballers started comparatively recently, and it stemmed from a society which has been deeply dumbed down and one that had already adopted a similar attitude itself. Footballers today are paid millions and millions of pounds, in a seemingly never ending uphill staircase of wage rises. With that has come the lad and ladette culture of footballers and er..footballers wives, which has been vastly helped along by the media in general and, imo, trash such as 'Hello Magazine.' Jimmy Hill pushed and pushed for footballers to get paid more, back in the 1960s, but it took a long time to reach where it is now. I wonder if he now regrets that. Perhaps you should blame Jimmy. Or, the dumbed down society itself which now surrounds us all. That isn't George's fault either. That has happened because of apathy and a deliberate dumbing down by the media in particular, who for far too long have glorified the likes of crude comedians, pop shows such as The X Factor and Pop Idol, Big Brother and I'm A Celebrity...etc...etc...etc...

Football is only *part* of the problem.   It has become fashionable to appear thick, to be oikist, loutish and yobbish, to speak as if everyone comes from Sarf Larnden, like, know wha I mean, mate?


George was no angel, but he was no demon either.

And he was the most brilliant footballer I've ever seen.

Yes, he became an icon of his time, along with people such as The Beatles, The Stones etc...he was as much a part of the 60s as they were. Did he ask for that? I don't think so. He was merely a charming young Irish lad from a council estate who was thrust into the spotlight because of his incredible skill at football. The fact he had filmstar looks and Irish charm to match, made him easy prey for an ever hungry media. But there wasn't the 'cult' back then around 'celebrities' as now exists today. The paparazzi were far fewer back then and celebrity magazines didn't even exist. George was held up as an icon because he was so damned good at what he did. There has never been anyone to touch him, as a football player, nor has there been since.

And then, when the media lost Princess Diana, they 'discovered' David Beckham and good ol' Posh, who took her place on their front pages..and the Footballer's Wife was born, along with the TV series and the never-ending photos in all the latest fashion magazines..etc.etc..etc. Posh and Becks became the new 'Royal Family' of the UK. Nowt to do with George.

Football now is about greed and little else, with many clubs standing on the brink of disaster. It lost its magic a long time back.



"Ypou mean like the ones saying that punk, dissent, class politics and football culture are not particularly valuable or valid aspects of English culture?"

I said that football and punks were not the be all and end all of English culture. To that I will also add 'class politics' for I loathe the whole class issue. It divides people up and sets them against one another, and it has been used to do that very thing in ever increasing amounts these past decades. There is far, far more to English culture, far more.

"I find it hard to believe it's something you'd celebrate if you truly understood its contents."

Oh well, you know me, I understand nuzzink, ignorant person that I am, as you've told me over and over.


"I mean, you work in the National Trust shop, for heaven's sake - purveyor of all that is twee, nostalgic and sentimental about England. Surely if all these class-war yobs were genuinely trying to stop you, or anyone else, from being English any other way than "their" way, they'd be attacking all the NT and Past Times shops in the land..."

Well, that is, of course, a sort of 'attack' on the National Trust itself. Past Times is nowt to do with me, ask them.

The National Trust, for your information, sells many wonderful things to do with England. Perhaps, when Derek came in earlier this year, to purchase the Sidmouth Calendar, you weren't able to look around long enough.

Nostalgic items? And what's is wrong with that? Are you saying that people aren't allowed to be nostalgic? They're not allowed to look back, only forward, in blinkers? That's ridiculous, because again, if people aren't allowed to look back, then they will never know the heritage, the history of this land.

We sell beautiful things connected with England. We sell things that our customers love, because many of them grew up with those things. Nowt wrong there.

We sell some *incredible* books about England, along with jams, honey, (although that's in very short supply now) cakes, calendars, perfumes, cards, photos, prints, garden items, wildlife items, plants and trees (in our Houses) writing things. There are books on how to keep chickens, how to live off wild food, how to grow vegetables, how to grow fruit, how to get back to the land, how to take care of so many things in this country, how to have your own allotment, how to cook what grows on that allotment, how to cook almost anything under the sun, including English cooking too, There's music, jigsaws, outdoor pursuit things, rugs, picnic sets, walking sticks, maps, Kendal mint cake, survival guides, canoeing guids, books on country walks and coastal walks, pub crawls and tea shop walks..We sell local produce, from apple juice to soaps. We sell rose and lavender, and flowers and jewellery, hats and scarves and mugs and jugs.

Sidmouth is one of their most successful shops, often outselling city shops such as York and Bath.

And the reason we sell all of the above and far, far more, is firstly because our customers love it, secondly it brings generations together as grandparents buy many of the games, stories, practical books etc they played, or read, or skills they discovered as children, to share with their grandchildren..it passes the memories down..from how to play cribbage to how to grow a cabbage.

Then, all profits raised from those sales is ploughed into The National Trust itself, where it finds its way into the very footpaths that thousands walk each year, through meadows, fields, parks, or along a Coastal Path, more often than not all owned by The National Trust, or to a beach which is also owned and cared for by The National Trust. Or to a Stately Home which you can enjoy to your heart's content, wandering around its beautiful gardens, all owned and cared for by The National Trust, and part paid for by those very goods within our shops, which you talk of so disparagingly.

When you eat at a National Trust property, the food is locally grown, locally sourced, always fresh, very often organic. It's not just the farmers you're helping, but the industries which surround him, from the bakers and butchers, to the greengrocers and wine producers. When you buy the local products in all our shops, you are helping to keep alive the thousands of cottage industries in this land, who, without the support of The National Trust would go under.

The National Trust owns and cares for thousands of miles of coastline, conserving it all. They do the same with the Stately Homes of Britain, woodlands, fields, footpaths, stone walls, farms, rivers. They teach people of all ages, all colours, all religions, how to restore and conserve all of the above. They teach people the old skills in how to make most of the above, ensuring our heritage and traditional ways and skills continue. They are passionate about everything.

They have approximately 5,000 paid staff and approximately 40,000 volunteers. We have so many volunteers because we have so many thousands of people who love The National Trust and all it stands for, and they love helping to tell people about their heritage, be it from a castle, to a farm, to a workhouse or where John Lennon grew up.

The National Trust's properties are visited by hundreds of thousands of people each year, probably millions, and they come from all over the world to visit us.

'Forever, for Everyone' is their motto, their reason to be.

And they ensure that as much land as possible is opened up for us all to enjoy, forever...for everyone.

I am **immensely** proud to work for them and with them, because a harder working, more committed, intensely passionate and proud band of people, you'd be hard pushed to find, and they are pleased to work their butts off for The National Trust, because they all believe in the wonderful work it's doing.

Our shop, I think, as do many of our customers, is one of the most beautiful shops in Sidmouth, and one of the NT's most lovely shops in the country, or so we've been told many times over. Sometimes, we have people who just sit down on the chair and say to us, as one elderly lady did just recently "I hope you don't mind, but I'm just sitting here taking it all in, my dear, as it's so beautiful in here, so much to look at." I told her she was welcome to sit there as long as she wanted.

Our shops are now so popular that all the shops throughout the land are being updated, slowly but surely, after the success of Sidmouth's 'makeover'

We have people who buy their entire list of Christmas presents with us, because our range is so unusual and so varied, so they are able to find something for almost everyone. We are getting younger and younger customers in all the time, too, from teenagers to guys with amazing dreadlocks, like the young man who was in on Saturday. His hair went below his waist, and I smiled and told him how lovely it looked. He grinned at me from ear to ear, then went back to looking at all the products in our 'Recycle and Reduce' section, from energy saving kettles, kitchen compost bins, books on how to recycle almost anything, or how to save water, to wind up torches, radios and lanterns...

Yup, probably the most glorious shop in Sidmouth, and heck, are we loved!

The National Trust

Join The National Trust from the USA

The Royal Oak Organisation (USA)

Sidmouth - National Trust Land

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 06:59 PM

"oikist,"

LoL A new word...

Oikish.


And Tootler..no-one, but no-one forced anyone to follow Mrs. Thatcher. I certainly didn't. I loathed her.

The hatred comes from the people themselves and those who are determined to keep us all in boxes.

How much longer are people going to use her as a Scapegoat for their own shortcomings?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 07:30 PM

"No, the cult of in yer face footballers started comparatively recently,"

Evidence? Look at what Georgie was actually getting up to. I maintain it was the Best era that spawned this whole sorry sub-culture. Have you any evidence that the phenomenon is "comparatively recent"?

"And then, when the media lost Princess Diana, they 'discovered' David Beckham and good ol' Posh, who took her place on their front pages..and the Footballer's Wife was born, along with the TV series and the never-ending photos in all the latest fashion magazines..etc.etc..etc. Posh and Becks became the new 'Royal Family' of the UK. Nowt to do with George."

Bollocks. Gazza came in the meantime, with Sheryl and their chavvy spawn. Posh and Backs are the end result of a trend which began in the Best era.

Why do you insist on mentioning the fact that my boyfriend tried to buy a calendar from your shop? What does it prove, except that he wanted a calendar? Do I refer to your ex huspand or the boyfriend who ran a mile when he realised what a nutcase you were? Does the fact that I set foot inside the shop where you work detract from the fact that 99% of what the National trust shops sell is twee, sentemental and nostalgic? No, it doesn't. I'm a menber of the National Trust, as it happens. I still find their shops twee and sentimental. The point is that no one is stopping you from interpreting England in a twee, sentimental and nostalgic way, as is evidenced by these Mrs Tiggywinkle-style merchandising enterprises. So WHERE is this great threat to your culture? Again, very specific evidence, please.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lox
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 07:38 PM

ok girls - you're starting to sound like a couple oof prom queens fighting over a tiara now.

You might not like that analogy, but I don't like this personal crap.

You're both pretty normal nice people.

This is a personal argument.

If you hate each other that much then leave each other alone.

You're just giving yourselves headaches.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 07:53 PM

Lox, perhaps you should stick to bizarre, obscure theories about aboriginals. I can't imagine they're any more interesting or relevant for the peanut gallery.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lox
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 08:52 PM

I don't know what a peanut gallery is.

There's nothing bizarre about me finding it interesting that archeologists have found evidence that the first homosapiens in America may have come from an Australian Aboriginal root and not from a north east asian root.

I'll express my point of view as and when I have one that I feel like expressing.

And I'll respond to posts on this thread as i read them without any need to do a background check on anyone I'm responding to first.

If you don't want the public to comment on an issue, don't post in a public forum.

You're all strangers to me and you all look the same ... like 26 letters jumbled up into different patterns.

I'll judge based on what I read.

I don't think much of that St George Song, but I think less of witchhunts.

Lizzie says she loves he country, "....her people of ALL colours, creeds and backgrounds...and damn the BNP to hell! "

If she was pro BNP she might have said "they aren't all that bad actually" in which case I would have pointed her in the direction of the Nick Griffin Holocaust Denial video on youtube and asked her to explain it.

But that didn't happen.

She's out of touch in some ways, but that's country life for you.

You guys are commenting about each others personal lives and that has nothing to do with politics.

I don't give a monkeys about the history of this issue, there is enough in this thread to give me a pretty clear picture of who you both are.

I don't have a problem with either of you and unless someone starts giving me a load of grief or says something that I find particularly offensive that's how it will remain.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 09:01 PM

"The point is that no one is stopping you from interpreting England in a twee, sentimental and nostalgic way, as is evidenced by these Mrs Tiggywinkle-style merchandising enterprises."

Hang on a tick, wasn't that *exactly* what happened, earlier up this thread, or was I dreaming?


And talking of Hedgehogs in Bonnets and Dresses... :0)

We sell Mrs.Tiggywinkle notelets, of course, and many things Beatrix Potter in general, from time to time, as it was Beatrix who gave so much of her land to The National Trust, which of course was started by one of her great friends, the Rev. Hardwicke Rawnsley, amongst others.

The Founders of The National Trust

Hardwicke Rawnsley

Beatrix Potter

Hill Top Farm - The Home of Beatrix Potter

Mrs. Tiggywinkle's Birthplace

And finally, a film produced with the help of The National Trust:

Miss Potter - Youtube

I love Beatrix Potter. You know why? She never gave up being who she wanted to be, who she was. She refused to change her outlook, her way of life, no matter what others thought about her. And as they say in that trailer above, Beatrix saw things differently.

Then one day, she met a man who saw things the same way....


And they danced...

Let Me Teach You How To Dance



Now, I'm off to dream of Dancing Hedgehogs and Falling In Love.....


"She's out of touch in some ways, but that's country life for you."

Oy! Cheeky! lol

Good Lordy!! Did someone mention COUNTRY LIFE????

Hey, there IS a God! :0) :0) :0)

What a song to go to sleep on.... :0)


Although, I think that tonight, Hedgehogs, Dancing and Love may well win.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 12:20 AM

Would somebody please define "twee" for a poor ignorant colonial who's more or less following this discussion while scratching his head?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 01:32 AM

Somebody called Lox says of Ruth (the farmer) and of Lizzie (purveyor of tat in a souvenir shop) that he has a pretty clear picture of who you both are.
No you haven't.
Ruth (Ms Crump) is an experienced and respected festival organiser with an extensive musical knowledge and wide awareness of English traditions.
Lizzie (for this is the name the former Mrs Route is using today) is a loud-mouthed, verbose bore, wilfully ignorant of the English tradition which she mistakes for a crackpot, mythical existence of dragons, Mabel Lucy Attwood, faded wannabe purveyors of pub rock, home education and no lager,
Is Ms Crump wrong to be upset by this airheaded Mary Whitehouse clone, spouting such dangerous, irritating tripe?
Yes, but how could she react otherwise?
Somebody has to stem the flow of sickly bilge and tell it to the world in general how it really is here in Eng-er-land.
Today it was her turn. Well done Ruth.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:39 AM

Whilst I've nothing against the National Trust per se, I do question the time, effort and money put into preserving "stately homes", those often quite hideous buildings (is neo-classical really true English vernacular style?) that stand as monuments to misery and edifices of oppression; built by landowners who were the beneficiaries of the enclosures, which deprived a whole class of society of the means to live independent, if hard, lives and forced them to become wage-slaves of the very people who had deprived them of their livelihoods (and, in the process, drove John Clare mad). Surely, it would be better to allow these redundant buildings to become ruins and watch them fall apart and rot along with the over-privileged class that built them and the wastrel monarchy that is the backbone of a defunct and discredited social system.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:26 AM

Lizzie, you are BINGE posting again, stop it NOW, take a valium, you know it makes sense.

eric

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:28 AM

I have a lot of friends who would agree with you, leveller, and I can sympathise with where you're coming from. But in more recent years they have started preserving other aspects of social history, like workhouses, the back-to-backs in Birmingham, a pub in the Cotswolds, and more ordinary people's homes which represent more of a range of different histories. They also preserve a number of natural sites - there's a beautiful bit of the Pembrokeshire coast which is owned by the National Trust, for example.

In the American south you can visit the old plantation houses which have been given the stately home treatment, but more recently many of them have started to preserve and show the slave quarters - the other side of the story. I think that approach is starting to be incorporated in the NT as well.

I actually joined because Isaac Newton's house is down the road from me, and I wanted to be able to go and sit in his garden and read the paper under the apple tree. :)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:47 AM

Ah, so we let all our stately homes, our castles and the great gardens that go with them just fall apart?

We throw the treasures away, smash the furniture and leave the empty shells as rotting carcasses?

Hell, let's not stop there...

We could chuck the Queen into a caravan, tear down Buckingham Palace, The Tower, Westminster Abbey, Windsor Castle, The Houses of Parliament, I mean heck, that's a grand historical building too....

In fact, why not stop there, let's tear down everything that is in our history that we don't like or that we disagree with, so that nothing is left. Burn the books, burn the museums, burn the whole lot of everything, and rub out all our history, save for that of which we approve.

When the tourists come over to see our incredible history, we'll just shrug our shoulders and say "Oops, sorry, we didn't approve of it, so we destroyed it, yes, even Newton's garden, the whole lot of everything has gone and now, we're a Land of the Free at last, but simply with that part of our culture removed, forever"

Silly me..I just never thought of it like that..

I'll suggest to The National Trust that they replace their 'Forever, for Everyone, with 'Nothing, for Anyone' as that'll go down far better with some in here.

Sorry folks, but Long Live The National Trust and all that they do.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:50 AM

To be completely fair, that really ought to read "Forever, for Everyone that can afford the admission fee." :)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:54 AM

Ruth, I'm totally in favour of the projects you mention - I just feel that preserving stately homes takes a disproportionate amount of money and effort.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:01 AM

on the other hand, leveller, it's not public money. The trust is currently trying to preserve Seaton Delaval Hall, but has also asked mebers for innovative ideas of how to use the site, which I thought was cool - it would make a great venue for music events.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:01 AM

Most people will happily pay the same amount, or more, to go to the cinema, or the pub, so yup, they can more than likely afford the same amount for The National Trust, and they'll get far, far more for their money. Whether they want to go there or not is the real question.

If you join as a member, you'll have made the money back within the first 3/4 visits, and you can visit every single day, for the rest of the year, whenever you so choose, for as long as you choose, as you must know, being a member.

Preserving our history, whether it's a history you approve of or not, is always worth doing, in my opinion, but heck...what do I know. :0)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:03 AM

Just a quick comment: I don't have a brief either way for the NT, but it's worth noting that the NT's properties aren't all "stately homes". There are some small places which are low-key and fascinating. Examples round me are Rudyard Kipling's old home at Burwash in Sussex, the tiny Clergy House in Alfriston, Bodiam Castle (ruins but fascinating), etc. They also own large areas of countryside - free and open to anyone, in most cases.

It's always worth keeping things in proportion...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:04 AM

The Trust has a new calendar. You may like to tell someone you know about it.

It's our Men Of The National Trust calendar, raising money for that very project.

We all love Mr. November best, as do most of our customers...sat in front of his fire, with his dog and the light reflecting on his face..

Not a cream bun in sight though.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:07 AM

I know that it can be an expensive day out for a family.

Not everyone CAN afford to go to the pub or cinema and spend £10 - £15 per person, which is what a lot of properties charge. Like it or not, it will be a cost-prohibitive pursuit for many people. "Forever, for Everyone" is somewhat misleading.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:13 AM

Do you know the film V for Vendetta TheLeveller?

A horribly pertinant Sci Fi distopia (all new to me) by care of DC comics and the Wachowski Bros.

Saw it the other night, some barely veiled (if at all) political activist messages riddled right through it, which almost made my jaw drop.

Some super monologues by the softly spoken V. Great stuff.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:26 AM

"Not everyone CAN afford to go to the pub or cinema and spend £10 - £15 per person, which is what a lot of properties charge."

Well, I've just looked at three of the major Houses in Devon and Cornwall. It'll cost you £19-£23 for the entire family to get in.

For a Family Membership, it'll cost you £61 approximately, a year, for two adults and all their children or grandchildren. That's by direct debit, around £85 if not by d/d. You get 12 months for the price of 9 very often too, as you do at present. Yes, the Houses close in the winter, for cleaning and repairs, but the gardens are open all year round, along with many of the restaurants and shops.

So, around £5 each for an entire day in a very beautiful and often very educational place, ain't bad, in book.

The admission prices for each property is at the bottom of the relative page.

National Trust prices

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:29 AM

English heritage and culture is not JUST about football, it is also about our palaces and houses and the huge amount of history tied up with them. All sides are important to get a true and accurate picture of our roots.

I'll leave you now, Joan to become an 'expert' on the National Trust, so that you can 'out knowledge' me and finally feel happy. I ain't interested in all of that. I just know that I work with and for a great bunch of people who care passionately about England and all she stands for, both from the past and the present, and in the future..and that'll do for me.

Have fun.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:34 AM

"Well, I've just looked at three of the major Houses in Devon and Cornwall. It'll cost you £19-£23 for the entire family to get in."

There will still be people for whom this is a lot of money. No matter how you look at it, Lizzie, there will be people who are excluded because of cost from utilising the National Trust - there's also the additional cost of getting to the properties if you don't own a car, as most of them are in rural locations.


I understand very well why they have to charge what they do, and it's one of the reasons I joined; I'm simply suggesting that "For Everyone" might be slightly misleading.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:43 AM

Lizzie, you complained elsewhere about people not reading what you have written and, in effect, putting words in your mouth. Don't you feel that's excatly what you have done here? Please do me the courtesy of not implying that I am in favour of the wholesale destruction of our national heritage - nothing could be further from the truth.

Rosie: no I haven't come across V for Vendetta. It sound a bit 1984ish - which I have just finished re-reading and mulling over its pertinence.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:51 AM

I mentioned it in part because of the political significance it places upon *buildings as symbols*. And specifically on buildings as symbols of public oppression. Rather a garbled tangental response to your comment on Stately Homes.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 09:03 AM

"There will still be people for whom this is a lot of money. No matter how you look at it, Lizzie, there will be people who are excluded because of cost from utilising the National Trust - there's also the additional cost of getting to the properties if you don't own a car, as most of them are in rural locations."


To be honest, Joan, if you want to nit pick, then go ahead and do it. I realised a very long time ago, that anything I champion or love you'll either try and discredit, criticise or become a major part of.

I have no problem with The National Trust, because I know that everyone is able to afford a day out at some point in their lives, if they so choose. I have worried about money all my life, it's nothing new for me, and given a choice of a six pack of lager and a night out with the girls, I'd rather pack some sandwiches and spend my day in a National Trust garden.

What 'Forever, for Everyone' actually means is that the great houses, casltes and gardens, are now there, restored and immensely beautiful for everyone to enjoy, along with the country and coastal paths, which are completely and entirely free, the woodlands, and many other things which the National Trust takes such great care of.

If people don't want to go, fine. That is entirely their choice, but it's all out there, if they ever do want to.

Take it up with the lady who's in charge of The NT if it irks you so much. I'm sure she'd love to pass more information on to you.

There are many who can't afford a season ticket for Sidmouth Folk Week, and other festivals, which costs hundreds of pounds, for just one single week. The National Trust costs a tiny fraction of that and you get to visit 52 weeks of the year, on almost every day, in many of the properties.

Go figure.

And, just like folk festivals, there are some things which are free to watch, some entertainment that anyone can enjoy, just as people are free to walk the woodlands, the paths and coastal paths which cost The National Trust hundreds of thousands of pounds to look after.


leveller. If you want to remove the Stately Homes of England, or rather leave them to rot, then I'm presuming you'd want to get rid of all that they contain, including all the antiques, the artwork, the beauty....and leave a rotting corpse.

I'd suggest, if this is the case, that you also tear down the statues to people such as Nelson, burn The Victory and let The Mary Rose rot back in the bottom of the ocean bed, because WHY would we want to conserve a part of our history that smacks of the Royal Family, The Royal Navy and well....all of 'them'

I don't see 'them' and 'us' I only see 'we', so therefore I don't judge things perhaps in the same way. I know that without our Stately Homes, Castles, Abbeys etc, thousands of people would be without jobs, because it's not just those who work within The National Trust itself, but all the workmen from outside who keep the poperties going, the plumbers, the builders, the decoraters, the cooks, the cleaners, the people who provide, and deliver the food and the goods for the shops...And without the money that the Stately Homes of England bring in, there'd be no money to conserve our countryside and coastline.

It is a huge machine, and I for one am very grateful that The National Trust is there, doing what it does, and it will continue to do so.

History is history. Good and Evil. Rich and Poor. It is a mix of all. To lose so much of our history, would be a very sorry thing indeedna and very irresponsible, I feel.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 09:37 AM

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them high and lowly,
He ordered their estate.

Ah! The dreaming of England whereby the injustices of social class might be excused in the name of God Given Heritage to further justify the alienations that would fret over the fate of the monstrous theatricality of Delaval Hall whilst tearing down the cathedral-like splendours of Blyth Power Station without batting an eyelid. Still, we might take heart that Social Class is the defining quality of English Culture, as atavistically entrenched as the Hindu Caste System and as inhumanly divisive as Apartheid, it stands as our ancient heritage - one of being continually fucked over by the bitch mother England who maintains the over-privileges of the few on the impoverishment of the many.

On the subject of country houses, here's a transcription I made of the 1911 guide book to Coldharbour in Northumberland, which might be of interest to some of you.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: davyr
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 11:19 AM

"The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them high and lowly,
He ordered their estate."

That verse had already been dropped from school hymnbooks when I last sang it at my South London primary in 1961.

Out of all possible scenarios by which society might be brought crashing down around our ears, a popular revolution by the working classes seems to me the least likely. And I refuse to believe it's simply because so many have "swallowed the lies of the Capitalist media".

I regret the passing of the opportunity England once offered (before the Enclosures) for scraping a meagre but independent living from the commons and living in a shack you'd erected overnight. I'd have probably gone for that myself as a young man, and would now be worrying about how much longer my aging frame would stand it.

But those times aren't coming back anytime soon. Does anybody seriously believe that the country would be set back on its feet if only we could depose the Royal Family and slaughter the bogeyman Capitalists?

I'd be interested to hear of any historical example in which a corrupt power was replaced by another ideology that didn't eventually follow its predecessor down the path of absolutism and terror.

And before anybody accuses me of being a Daily Mail reading Middle Englander, I'm a modestly-paid NHS employee, originally from the East End of London, whose ancestors mostly ended their days in the workhouse.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 11:52 AM

"anything I champion or love you'll either try and discredit, criticise or become a major part of."

ROFLMAO!!!!

Yes, Lizzie. My whole life and career are driven by you. I got involved with fundraising at Sidmouth not because my partner was involved with the festival, but to get at you. I applied for the job of AD not because it was a great opportunity in the sector in which I've worked for many years, but to get up your nose.

"There are many who can't afford a season ticket for Sidmouth Folk Week"

and this is relevant how, exactly? I have already said that I understand why the NT has to charge, and certainly understand why festivals need to charge. My (relatively light-hearted) point was simply that the NT's slogan might be slightly misleading, or at least open to misinterpretation. I've already pointed out that I'm a member, for heaven's sake. That's hardly the action of someone who wants to discredit the organisation. I should also point out that, when I did research for my ex-husband, who is a travel writer, we worked really closely with the NT over many years and helped to promote a number of properties.

Btu I still think the shops are rather twee. I think the same about Past Times. Sue me. Or hit me over the head with a giant oak-finish bagatelle board.



Trollie: I interviewed Anthony Gormley a few years ago (see my reference to research, above), and when I asked him what his architectural wonder of Britain was, he said "The M1 - especially the view of the cooling towers at Tinsley Viaduct." Perhaps the NT should have tried to save them, too. :)

BTW, Jonathan Meades chose Seaton Delaval as his architectural wonder of Britain for the same piece. It suits him, looking as he does like a refugee from a Smiths concert circa 1984.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 12:14 PM

"I mentioned it in part because of the political significance it places upon *buildings as symbols*. And specifically on buildings as symbols of public oppression."

Ah, Rosie, I see your point. Personally, I think there is a differentiation between civic , municipal and government buildings which should, in an ideal world, be symbols of the democratic process, and those buildings, epitomised by stately homes, which, as symbols of personal greed, oppression and social superiority, are there to "prove the upper classes have still the upper hand".

There are, however, some historic buildings about which I'm ambivalent. For example, as I have mentioned before, the village where I live contains the remains of the only castle in the East Riding of Yorkshire. It was built in the 1380s by the Dukes of Northumberland and it was from here that Harry Hotspur led all the able-bodied men of the village to be slaughtered at the Battle of Otterburn. In 1648, however, despite the then Lord Percy being a Parliamentary supporter, the majority of the castle was demolished by Parliamentary forces to prevent its falling into Royalist hands.

The remains of the castle are today still privately owned by a local landowner and there is no public access to them. On old maps, much of the land farmed by the current owners, can be seen to have once been common land annexed during the enclosures and, whilst they constantly claim to have the best interests of the village at heart, the owners deliberately block well-established rights of way and refuse to allow a large piece of unused land that they own at the centre of village to be used as a village green (imagine actually creating a village green!). Nowadays, though, most of their "serfs" come from Poland.

"leveller. If you want to remove the Stately Homes of England, or rather leave them to rot, then I'm presuming you'd want to get rid of all that they contain, including all the antiques, the artwork, the beauty....and leave a rotting corpse."

That was, I'm afraid, very presumptious.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 12:44 PM

Jonathan Meades chose Seaton Delaval as his architectural wonder of Britain for the same piece

I like Meades, and to be honest I love SDH. I grew up nearby and I'm suitably entrenched in the lore and continuity of the place - the fact however so modest a corner of England remained in the same family for night on a thousand years is sobering,and the fact I might be related, albeit illegitimately... Whatever the case, SDH will forever be a part of the landscapes of my childhood, as were the chimneys of Blyth Power Station which once complemented Vanburgh's masterpiece so perfectly!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 01:01 PM

"Ah, Rosie, I see your point. Personally, I think there is a differentiation between civic , municipal and government buildings which should, in an ideal world, be symbols of the democratic process, and those buildings, epitomised by stately homes, which, as symbols of personal greed, oppression and social superiority, are there to "prove the upper classes have still the upper hand"."

Yes, I recognised the apparent difference you describe, prior to posting. Of course I suspect that the 'symbol of power' involved becomes more or less troublesome, depending on whose *cause* the symbol either origionally serves, or (by either appropration (subtle or direct), public claim, or some other legally binding default) comes to serve?

In the instance cited (ie. the Houses of Parliament) the assumption that the HoP were serving the public, was actively questioned and indeed.. Well, y'know. Anyway, I do love me Sci-Fi and comic books. Probly just as well. Cos you don't get a lot of interesting dissent via newspapers..

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 01:33 PM

In William Morris's futuristic, utopian-socialist News From Nowhere, the Palace of Westminster had become the very useful Dung Market and Trafalgar Square (which no-one had got round to renaming because dead follies don't bite) was an orchard filled with blossoming trees and bronze statues of no-one anyone could remember, a bit like Shelley's Ozymandias lying in the desert, "Look on my works ye mighty and despair".

As a child, I used to play among the ruins of Rievaulx Abbey. Now you have to pay to get in. You could also just walk up to the stones at Stonehenge, or right to the edge at Land's End. Now you can't. Someone's collecting the dosh. Even in a church, there's someone following you round with a collection tin. The state ought to be providing upkeep on our behalf for historic buildings and ancient sites out of the taxes we pay but have no say in how they are spent. And the National Trust could close down its tat shops and use the premises for a more edifying purpose.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 01:39 PM

Interesting that you call it Vanbrugh's masterpiece, Trollie. Jonathan Meades said the same thing. He said that Castle Howard and Blenheim Palace were immature works, and very much influenced by the collaboration with Hawksmoor, but that Seaton Delaval was a kind of perfect reaslisation of Vanbrugh's architectural vision.

He also said that he likes how it sits there, all squat and glowering on the landscape, and that the best time to visit it is on a gloomy day. Hence my Smiths reference. :)

He also said that it used to scare his kids when they were little...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 01:49 PM

Please don't stop....This is the funniest thread in years!!!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 01:54 PM

"The state ought to be providing upkeep on our behalf for historic buildings and ancient sites out of the taxes we pay"

I agree. In a perfect world, the NT's properties would be like our national galleries - subsidised by our taxes and free at the point of use.

To be fair to the shops, they are just another way to generate revenue - they have to be as easily marketable as possible to the typical NT visitor, and I assume they generally do pretty well and cosnequently serve their purpose.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 02:52 PM

I wish we had something like the National Trust here in the States. The historical landmarks seem to be MacDonalds or Early Coca Cola bottles. Bush and his clan want
to fill up the Grand Canyon with water. You might bitch about paying to get in to see some of these landmarks in England but to an outsider, they would be worth the money.

If only the US government could subsidize our national treasures, that would be a gift.
It's not likely to happen though because the cultural aspects of the US are given short shrift today.

Frank

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 02:59 PM

Someone called Lox prefers Bilge to Bile.

Someone called Diane is free to define her own identiy as she pleases.

As is anyone else on this site.

someone called lox is genuinely surprised at the defensive edgy messages that have been directed his way.

I think it can certainly be concluded that this is indeed a sensitive issue.

English culture is also about freedom of expression, dissent and refusal to be shaped, censored or defined by any outside influence.

There is no CV in the land that gives any one English person any greater ownership of Englishness or what it means than another.

So stop picking fights and grow up.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:01 PM

funny,NO
its tedious.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:11 PM

300?