English Culture - What is it?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 03:17 AM

Bollocks.

At 7.22 yesterday I wrote:
In a thread about the Jewish influence on folk music he (poxy-loxy] objected to a song called "Hava Hangover".

Anyone who wanted to look up such tripe could. I put the alleged "anti-semitism" of Priscilla Queen Of The Desert in quotes to demonstrate that it was no such thing, not (as Mr Winick alleges in a typical nerdism) to attribute it to poxy-loxy. Scarcely to "verbally intimidate" him but to emphasise how ridiculous such a tedious, whingeing complaint sounded. They (collectively) now allege it was not a complaint at all. I suggest a course in How To Write With Clarity.

Later in the post I identified that various strands of culture culled from the Jewish diaspora that musicians (such as Burning Bush) are pursuing here in England, and that some, because they are resident in England, pursue English tradarts too. These are different (as is bleedin' obvious). Nerdy's relatives may be poncing around pretending to be more English than the Royal Family isn't but the practice of immigrants (however far back) concealing their roots is, fortunately, dying out.

This nerd alleges that he has leapt, knight-in-shining-armour stylee, to poxy's "defence" after I "attacked" him. No, I treated him with contempt and scorn after he launched, out of the blue, a pathetic, incomprehensible attack on me. What exactly would be the point of attempting to attack a nebulous, allegedly Irish (possibly Jewish), shit stirrer? He's now in a playground-taunting gang of two with a tedious, out-of-touch Murkan academic who emerges occasionally to make frankly weird observations on English tradarts from his ivory tower.

This, remember, is all because I said a South African Jewish comedian was rather far removed from being an example of "English culture", and thus ill-chosen.

Go figure, those of you who want. I've lots to do in the real world of Eng-er-land today.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 04:23 AM

Diane, this is the answer you gave to 'English Culture - What is it?'


A Place Called England

I rode out on a bright May morning like a hero in a song
Looking for a place called England trying to find where I belong
Couldn't find the old flood meadow or the house that I once knew
No trace of the little river or the garden where I grew

I saw town and I saw country, motorway and sink estate
Rich man in his rolling acres poor man still outside the gate
Retail park and Burger Kingdom, prairie field and factory farm
Run by men who think that England's just a place to park their car

But as the train pulled from the station through the wastelands of despair
From the corner of my eye a brightness filled the filthy air
Someone's sown a patch of sunflowers though the soil is sooty black
Marigolds and a few tomatoes right beside the railway track

Down behind the terraced houses in between the concrete towers
Compost heaps and scarlet runners, secret gardens full of flowers
Meeta grows her scented roses right beneath the big jets' path
Bid a fortune for her garden, Eileen turns away and laughs

Rise up George and wake up Arthur, time to rouse out from your sleep
Deck the horse with sea green ribbons, drag the old sword from the deep
Hold the line for Dave and Daniel as they tunnel through the clay
While the oak in all its glory soaks up sun for one more day

Come all you at home with freedom whatever the land that gave you birth
There's room for you both root and branch as long as you love the English earth
Room for vole and room for orchid, room for all to grow and thrive
Just less room for the fat landowner on his arse in his four-wheel drive

For England is not flag or Empire it is not money and it is not blood
It's limestone gorge and granite fell, it's Wealden clay and Severn mud
It's blackbird singing from the may tree, lark ascending through the scales
It's robin watching from your spade and English earth beneath your nails
         
So here's two cheers for a place called England, sore abused but not yet dead
A Mr Harding sort of England, hanging in there by a thread
Here's two cheers for the crazy Diggers now their hour shall come around
We shall plant the seed they saved us, common wealth and common ground

(Maggie Holland)



Now in Maggie's song there is no distinction made about country of origin or religion. None whatsoever.

And yet, when I put down Sid's name, all hell broke loose.

Sid James, a man I didn't even know was South African or Jewish, because I'd simply always thought of him as English, came over here in the 1940s, on a one way ticket. He lived here for the rest of his life, amongst people he took to his heart, dying on stage whilst entertaining them. He was taken to the hearts of us too. His ashes lie in 'The English Earth' that Maggie speaks about above, in Golders Green cemetery. He loved this country and he was loved by this country. He gave us much joy and happiness, as did the rest of The Carry On Team who were a major part of English humour back when I was young.

I have never thought of people's religion, or country of origin, as excluding them from being English. It simply doesn't, in my book, for it doesn't matter where you come from, so long as you love England, again, as Maggie speaks of above.

If you regard England as your 'home' then in my mind, you are English. Love for this country is all that matters, plus a respect for England's culture and her people. And for me, her culture is not centred around football, but around a myriad of other things too.

And you spoke earlier of 'Roots', saying it was the reason I had started this thread, and that I had taken your quote out of context. Yet, if you look back, 'Roots' is barely mentioned, and as I have explained, all I wanted was to find out other people's views on English culture, from this country and from others, as you so often say those very words about 'other people's views', so for once I thought I'd give other people a chance to put theirs down.

However, as you speak of 'Roots' may I just remind you that Steve Knightley took neary four years to write that song, because he couldn't get the 'jigsaw' to fit into place, couldn't quite get it right..

....and then, one day, he spoke to a young man he knew, a young man who is also a friend of yours, I believe, call Chris, who used to present the 'Cool As Folk' radio show from Reading University. Chris and Steve got talking and Chris, as I recall him saying on the BBC board a long time back now, told Steve that many of his young friends didn't know what their roots were, didn't have a sense of 'belonging'.....

And the final part of the jigsaw was put into place...

'ROOTS' by Steve Knightley:

"Now it's been twenty-five years or more
I've roamed this land from shore to shore
From Tyne to Tamar, Severn to Thames
From moor to vale, from peak to fen
Played in cafes and pubs and bars
I've stood in the street with my old guitar
But I'd be richer than all the rest
If I had a pound for each request
For 'Duelling Banjos' 'American Pie'
Its enough to make you cry
'Rule Britannia' or 'Swing Low'
Are they the only songs the English know?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
They're never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - they need roots

After the speeches when the cake's been cut
The disco is over and the bar is shut
At christening, birthday, wedding or wake
What can we sing until the morning breaks?
When the Indian, Asians, Afro, Celts
It's in their blood, below the belt
They're playing and dancing all night long
So what have they got right that we've got wrong?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than well ever know
Round the rocky shores of England

And a minister said his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl
It's pubs where no one ever sings at all
And everyone stares at a great big screen
Over-paid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estuary English, baseball caps
And we learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where weve come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
Round the rocky shores of England"


And now, perhaps we can get back to what other people think, rather than personal attacks on those who disagree with what you have to say. We all have different ideas of English Culture, because we all have lived different lives, but somewhere along the way there are many things which unite us.

We *have* lost more than we'll ever know around the rocky shores of England, but we've lost it because we let it go. We let it be lost through apathy. It was no-one's fault but our own, because we kept silent as our culture was put into the shadows.

Well, the English need their roots, in the same way that other countries do. It is no sin to be proud of your country in many other places around the world, to know your heritage and culture, but in England, for so long, it has been.

That is finally changing.

And no, it does *not* mean that we're all going to 'rise up and join the BNP' that is the most insulting accusation that you can throw at the English. We went to war, this tiny nation of ours, to keep the flag of freedom flying. We sacrificed a great deal, and we are not about to throw that all in for complete b*stards like the BNP.

And now, I'm off to work...so try not to kill one another whilst I'm gone, eh. :0)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 04:33 AM

Icons such as Sid James and George Best are classic examples of the all inclusive nature of English Culture dismissed by others as a foreign farce, but which is, in fact, integral to the nature of any culture thus perceived, or else desired, simply because most of us are too busy getting on with our lives to give a fuck. In any case Sid James worked better as a foil for Hancock than he ever did in the common-minded trash served up in the terminally unfunny Carry On films which defined the urban / lumpen proletariat as idiots and set out to patronise them as such.

I'm surprised there's been no mention of Bernard Manning yet - as I recall his obit thread was another long runner:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=102603&messages=239

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 04:42 AM

See, told you madlizziecornish would use this thread to drag up the dreary, ideologically dodgy dirge Roots again. Mind you, it was really funny when Cool As Folk managed to broadcast it at a slowed-down speed (just so that estuary people could catch the slight and proceed to put the boot into the poncy West Country . . .

The passage of A Place Called England which Mrs "down-the-MOR-route" has chosen to embolden highlights a class perspective of England. A concept which the dozy OP refuses to acknowledge exists, thus missing the point entirely. Nothing new there.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 09:25 AM

Everyone still here? I hope you all enjoyed a taste of English Culture over the last couple of days. For me that meant plenty of traditional food, excellent beer and falling asleep in front of a blazing log fire surrounded by my delightfully diverse and disfunctional family.

Tomorrow, I'm off to walk part of the Wolds Way up on the Yorkshire Wolds where there's 4000 years or more of English culture, with ancient mounds like Willy Howe, the only square barrows in the country and the tallest single standing stone in England, which stands next to a 12th century church. There's deserted medieval villages, big estates, owned for centuries by the same families who are infamous for oppressing their tenants and workers, and hillsides rolling down to the Humber Bridge. Pretty much a microcosm of English culture.

I also received two interesting books as presents: The Oxford Dictionary of English Folklore and Christopher Winn's I Never Knew That About the English. Plenty of grist for the mill there.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:00 AM

Diane said:

"Nerdy's relatives may be poncing around pretending to be more English than the Royal Family isn't but the practice of immigrants (however far back) concealing their roots...."

Sigh. This is Diane, who claims she has made a career of defending the poor and downtrodden. Sadly, because she is unable to stop talking or to admit a mistake, she will say more and more hateful things, digging away until she has buried herself.

Leveller, the Oxford Dictionary of English Folklore is a great little book. Much grist indeed!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 01:03 PM

a career of defending the poor and downtrodden

I make no such claim. My name is not Richard sodding Bridge. I am (or was) a writer - a political journalist, a music reviewer and a children's programmes researcher who got many a young musician / dancer onto the telly. But never an out-of-touch academic in some ivory tower in Pennsylvania (or wherever it is). Nor indeed an overgrown teenage groupie drooling over faded wannabe pub rock stars.

And no, I won't be stopping talking or ceasing to say bollocks to Nerdy Stevie (who is still too dim to grasp that a South African Jewish comedian is scarcely representative of either Englishness or of culture), till the end of time. Even Peggy Mitchell / Barabara Windsor regrets having taken part in the Carry On tripe because it limited her as an actor.

Never mind the Dictionary Of English Folklore. I recommend starting with English Tradarts For Dummies.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 01:06 PM

"See, told you madlizziecornish would use this thread to drag up the dreary, ideologically dodgy dirge Roots again. Mind you, it was really funny when Cool As Folk managed to broadcast it at a slowed-down speed (just so that estuary people could catch the slight and proceed to put the boot into the poncy West Country . . ."


Now now, Sweetums....I know you is gettin' older, same as me, but methinks you've forgotten that the only person who didn't realise something was drastically wrong with Cool as Folk's output of 'Roots' was er....you. although I appreciate the humour of your post there. ;-) Chris came on the thread to apologise and to explain as well, bless him.

BBC Thread about it...


"In any case Sid James worked better as a foil for Hancock than he ever did in the common-minded trash served up in the terminally unfunny Carry On films which defined the urban / lumpen proletariat as idiots and set out to patronise them as such."

See, shows how different we all are, I used to fall around chuckling at the cheekiness of them. "Quick, Nurse..the screens!"

:0)

And as for BManning...Yuk.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 01:19 PM

the only person who didn't realise something was drastically wrong

Funny that. It was the airplay première and I heard it go out live. People were saying how crap it sounded so MLC came along, screeching and screaming that it was "fab" / "brilliant" etc etc without having heard the transmission. Then she heard it on the replayer and joined (screechily) in the chorus of whingers. I just said "It's a dirge, innit? Wasn't it supposed to sound like that?"

Chris Conder apologised, yes, for screwing up the studio equipment and letting it run at just over a semitone flat. It's a very dangerous lyric to hold up as representative of "English culture". It's borderline racist and that's far from being just my opinion.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 01:24 PM

In fact, to counterbalance the (imo) 'orrible Bernard Manning, take a listen to Big Al Whittle's (mudcat's 'wee little drummer') song on his myspace page:

Al Whittle - 'Every Englishman's Friend' - an anti BNP song

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 01:35 PM

"It's a very dangerous lyric to hold up as representative of "English culture". It's borderline racist and that's far from being just my opinion."

Er..the song is about losing our culture, not about culture itself, ask Chris. It's also about how important culture is. Similar to what you've said over the years, really. :0)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 03:32 AM

"more English than the Royal Family" - German, surely?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 03:43 AM

Someone's inept cutting and pasting destroyed the formatting which originally read " . . . the Royal Family isn't . . . ". (27 December @ 03.17).
[as in not which transatlantic persons invariably fail to comprehend].

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 04:07 AM

Season of goodwill eh Diane? Not just the one post above but since about Xmas eve, in general, a large range of spiteful posts in a number of parts in an uncalled for xenophobic vein. I am inclined to think that Healey's rule of holesmanship needs applying.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 04:21 AM

Oh, I just correct other people's inane bollocks, largely because I wouldn't want the curious non-cognoscenti getting the impression that English tradarts are other than what they are. That's what I'm for.

Early yesterday morning I went into my local shop for juice and croissants. Two people (the Polish shopkeeper and an Afro-Caribbean man who said he lives in my street) tried to strike up entirely incomprehensible conversations. At least the latter concluded that he'd mistaken me for someone else but I've still no idea what the shopkeeper was on about.

Just like being on Mudcat, really.
Mouths and feet . . .

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 04:37 AM

William Shakespeare

The Globe Theatre

William Wordsworth

The English Pub - A beautiful short film

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 04:48 AM

The Notting Hill Carnival

Life in one of the last 'free' English pubs.."Oh bring us a revolution.." :0)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 09:08 AM

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 03:32 AM

"more English than the Royal Family" - German, surely?
Jim Carroll .
correct Jim,of German descent,and Prince Philip,is of Greek descent.
the last truly english monarch,was the one who got defeated by William The Conqueror[ NORMAN FRENCH],I think he was called Harold.
can we include WilLiam Topaz Mcgonagle[born a scotsman]but he desperately wanted to be a poet laureate,
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A Descriptive Poem on the Silvery Tay
        
        Beautiful silvery Tay,
With your landscapes, so lovely and gay,
Along each side of your waters, to Perth all the way;
No other river in the world has got scenery more fine,
Only I am told the beautiful Rhine,
Near to Wormit Bay, it seems very fine,
Where the Railway Bridge is towering above its waters sublime,
And the beautiful ship Mars,
With her Juvenile Tare,
Both lively and gay,
Does carelessly lie By night and by day,
In the beautiful Bay
Of the silvery Tay.
Beautiful, beautiful silvery Tay,
Thy scenery is enchanting on a fine summer day,
Near by Balnerino it is beautiful to behold,
When the trees are in full bloom and the cornfields seems like gold -
And nature's face seems gay,
And the lambkins they do play,
And the humming bee is on the wing,
It is enough to make one sing,
While they carelessly do stray,
Along the beautiful banks of the silvery Tay,
Beautiful silvery Tay,
Rolling smoothly on your way,
Near by Newport, as clear as the day,
Thy scenery around is charming I'll be bound...
And would make the heart of any one feel light and gay on a fine summer day,
To view the beautiful scenery along the banks of the silvery Tay.

William Topaz McGonagall proached Queen Victoria on the subjectof being poet laureate[so he clearly didnt think being a scotsman was a barrier]

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 09:12 AM

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silv'ry Tay!
Alas! I am very sorry to say
That ninety lives have been taken away
On the last Sabbath day of 1879,
Which will be remember'd for a very long time.

'Twas about seven o'clock at night,
And the wind it blew with all its might,
And the rain came pouring down,
And the dark clods seem'd to frown,
And the Demon of the air seem'd to say-
"I'll blow down the Bridge of Tay."

When the train left Edinburgh
The passengers' hearts were light and felt no sorrow,
But Boreas blew a terrific gale,
Which made their hearts for to quail,
And many of the passengers with fear did say-
"I hope God will send us safe across the Bridge of Tay."

But when the train came near to Wormit Bay,
Boreas he did loud and angry bray,
And shook the central girders of the Bridge of Tay
On the last Sabbath day of 1879,
Which will be remember'd for a very long time.

So the train sped on with all its might,
And Bonnie Dundee soon hove in sught,
And the passengers' hearts felt light,
Thinking they would enjoy themselves on the New Year,
With their friends at home they lov'd most dear,
And wish them all a happy New Year.

So the train mov'd slowly along the Bridge of Tay,
Until it was about midway,
Then the central girders with a crash gave way,
And down went the train and passengers into the Tay!
The Storm Fiend did loudly bray,
Because ninety lives had been taken away,
On the last Sabbath day of 1879,
Which will be remember'd for a very long time.

As soon as the catastrophe came to be known
The alarm from mouth to mouth was blown,
And the cry rang out all o'er the town,
Good Heavens! the Tay Bridge is blown down,
And a passenger train from Edinburgh,
Which fill'd all the peoples hearts with sorrow,
And made them for to turn pale,
Because none of the passengers were sav'd to tell the tale
How the disaster happen'd on the last Sabbath day of 1879,
Which will be remember'd for a very long time.

It must have been an awful sight,
To witness in the dusky moonlight,
While the Storm Fiend did laugh, and angry did bray,
Along the Railway Bridge of the Silv'ry Tay,
Oh! ill-fated Bridge of thSilv'ry Tay,
I must now conclude my lay
By telling the world fearlessly without the least dismay,
That your central girders would not have given way,
At least many sensible men do say,
Had they been supported on each side with buttresses,
At least many sensible men confesses,
For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 09:15 AM

A Tribute to Dr. Murison

Success to the good and skilful Dr Murison,
For golden opinions he has won
From his patients one and all,
And from myself, McGonagall.

He is very skilful and void of pride;
He was so to me when at my bedside,
When I turned badly on the 25th of July,
And was ill with inflammation, and like to die.

He told me at once what was ailing me;
He said I had been writing too much poetry,
And from writing poetry I would have to refrain,
Because I was suffering from inflammation on the brain.

And he has been very good to me in my distress,
Good people of Dundee, I honestly confess,
And to all his patients as well as me
Within the Royal city of Dundee.

He is worthy of the public's support,
And to his shop they should resort
To get his advice one and all;
Believe me on him ye ought to call.

He is very affable in temper and a skilful man,
And to cure all his patients he tries all he can;
And I wish him success for many a long day,
For he has saved me from dying, I venture to say;
The kind treatment I received surpasses all
Is the honest confession of McGonagall.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 09:25 AM

An Address to Shakespeare

Immortal! William Shakespeare, there's none can you excel,
You have drawn out your characters remarkably well,
Which is delightful for to see enacted upon the stage
For instance, the love-sick Romeo, or Othello, in a rage;
His writings are a treasure, which the world cannot repay,
He was the greatest poet of the past or of the present day
Also the greatest dramatist, and is worthy of the name,
I'm afraid the world shall never look upon his like again.
His tragedy of Hamlet is moral and sublime,
And for purity of language, nothing can be more fine
For instance, to hear the fair Ophelia making her moan,
At her father's grave, sad and alone....
In his beautiful play, "As You Like It," one passage is very fine,
Just for instance in fhe forest of Arden, the language is sublime,
Where Orlando speaks of his Rosilind, most lovely and divine,
And no other poet I am sure has written anything more fine;
His language is spoken in the Church and by the Advocate at the bar,
Here and there and everywhere throughout the world afar;
His writings abound with gospel truths, moral and sublime,
And I'm sure in my opinion they are surpassing fine;
In his beautiful tragedy of Othello, one passage is very fine,
Just for instance where Cassio looses his lieutenancy
... By drinking too much wine;
And in grief he exclaims, "Oh! that men should put an
Enemy in their mouths to steal away their brains."
In his great tragedy of Richard the III, one passage is very fine
Where the Duchess of York invokes the aid of the Divine
For to protect her innocent babes from the murderer's uplifted hand,
And smite him powerless, and save her babes, I'm sure 'tis really grand.
Immortal! Bard of Avon, your writings are divine,
And will live in the memories of your admirers until the end of time;
Your plays are read in family circles with wonder and delight,
While seated around the fireside on a cold winter's night.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 09:56 AM

Prince Philip is, nevertheless, the oldest living great-great grandchild of Queen Victoria . . .



Scarcely the place to begin when flagging up icons of English culture or attempting to define it are a philandering, booze-sozzled Irish footballer or a Jewish South African comedian. Nor is dragging up a dreary, dodgy pop song with such monotonous frequency. That's the burden of what I have said in this thread, rather than that I have a personal antipathy to the Irish, to Jews, or even to Show Of Hands.

I admire a lot of Irish literature and music (though dislike it when performed as a go-faster sprint, and the same applies to bluegrass). Wow, two hits in one sentence, that'll get the small-minded suitably riled.

I have an interest in varied musical cultures of the Jewish diaspora and have many secular Jewish friends who make a clear distinction (as I do) between pride in their heritage and opposition to the unbelievably appalling behaviour of the state of Israel. That's pissed off quite a few more of the blinkered. Good.

As for SoH, they're nice chaps who have, individually, been involved in some very worthwhile musical projects, I just have no interest in the bland stuff they do in that particular combo, but I suppose it pays their mortgages. That will continue to annoy at least one person who wouldn't even recognise "culture" if it bit her on the backside.

It's really weird, these oiks who use "racism" as a playground taunt. Only a couple of decades ago, the culture (ha!) was entirely the reverse, Bernard Manning stylee. I once heard a painter and decorator vow that he'd never use certain shades because they were "wog" colours. Nice, eh? It wasn't as though he was being forced by law to use them on his own house (which might have been a tad coercive), but simply to slap in on and take his payment. It's the assumption of a god-given right to impose wilfully ignorant prejudice on those of the population who have minds that's so vilely offensive.

There are, of course, marked similarities with the coterie of "jokey-blokey", sexist, misogynistic "men" here on Mudcat who hunt in packs and seek to keep women in what they imagine is "their place". Tough, chaps. There are at least some, not all women, who actually know what we're talking about, because of who we are and what we've done.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 10:21 AM

Hang on, so er...any man who disagrees with you, is now a mysogynist?

"..It's really weird, these oiks who use "racism" as a playground taunt..."

Ain't it just. :0)

"As for SoH, they're nice chaps who have, individually, been involved in some very worthwhile musical projects, I just have no interest in the bland stuff they do in that particular combo, but I suppose it pays their mortgages. That will continue to annoy at least one person who wouldn't even recognise "culture" if it bit her on the backside."

Nope, I've always recognised that one man's meat is another man's poison. What I don't keep quiet about though is when one person's poison spreads itself around on messageboards, in an effort to damage certain artists music and reputations.

Did you always love the baddie in the Christmas pantos, by any chance?



Anyways ups...I think we've left Sid James farrrrrrr behind now and have moved on to Shakespeare, although he probably had ancestors who came from Outer Mongolia or Inner TummyButtonFluffovia or some such place, but last time I checked, I think he was your kind of English, although I've heard that Anne Hathaway is now American, which is kind of confusin'...but..........

I love Will. He wrote some great words, didn't he?

"The lady doth protest too much methinks"       ;0)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 10:27 AM

"...Topaz Mcgonagle"

I think I've just found my new name! How COOL is that? :0)


I bet she'd wear a fake fur bikini and elegantly wade out of the surf on a moonlit English night..as James watched from his Aston Martin.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 10:33 AM

English culture is...

bizarely mixed metaphors?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 10:49 AM

"bizarely mixed metaphors?"

I do Elizabethan English. Far more fun than all that modern day 'stuff' :0)

Sits back and waits for a thesis on Elizabethan English to appear... ;0)

Noooooooo! I just meant that I make it up as I go along because I don't get all inside out and upside down about grammar, mainly because my brain can't remember it all, and even if it could, it probably wouldn't. I love playing with words, standing them on their heads and mixing them up, making patters with them that twirl off the tongue and slide downwards to land in a soft heap of muddle..It's what my brain does. It's 'my' English. :0)

Will Shakey would understand.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 10:59 AM

it is spelled thus: Bizarre
William Topaz mcgonagle,Indeed a splendid name.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 12:16 PM

I make it up as I go along

Yes, obviously.

It's 'my' English

No, it bloody isn't.

any man who disagrees with you, is now a mysogynist?*(sic)

No, any man who behaves like one. Of which there is an over-abundance of blokey prats (regardless of gender) in an extremely backward-looking forum of nasty Tory tendencies. I've already identified the ones who aren't. I could list them. Wouldn't take long.

Do check the spelling, etymology and application.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 12:22 PM

one person's poison spreads itself around on messageboards, in an effort to damage certain artists music and reputations

Ah yes, And there's another list of those artists who shake and shiver in their shoes at the very mention of madlizziecornish's name. They huddle in corners whimpering: "She's not here, is she?"

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM

[imo]Prince Philip is a polo playing pillock.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 01:26 PM

that's a snotty thing to say about SOH.

As a writer, I don't envy them much of their repertoire or their audience, but I AM very pleased for them for the their well deserved success. They have worked consistently very hard and with great dedication to the cause of English folk Clubs and the music that comes from them.

Given the torpor that the English folk movement has lived through since the heady days of the 1960's - what they have achieved represents an awesome achievement - really a lifetime achievement much more deserved than many you see handed out.

You know as well as I do, they aren't there to pay their bloody mortgages - shame on you for saying such a thing. They are there for a deeply passionately held devotion to folk and acoustic music in England.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 01:26 PM

A quiz about Prince Philip's bons mots that shows him to be all too typically "English".

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 01:45 PM

Of course SoH are in it to make enough to pay their mortgages. It's their job. I've never liked what they do as a band, I've always said so, knowing them to be capable of so much better. I don't think they mind. They have quite enough of a "following" to make a living, thank you.

I live in hope that they'll be able, some day soon, to jack it in and concentrate on far more representative English music such as Phil Beer produces from time to time. Farewell "Roots" for ever. Hurrah!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 01:49 PM

>>It's 'my' English

No, it bloody isn't.<<

Yes, it is, as in 'it's the way I write, spell, whatever, as in my way of 'English', that is, *my* English. You've got your way, I've got mine. My way means that I don't tell people how to write English. :0)

And...er...talking of South Africa and Ireland, and Judaism, let's read about Peter Ackroyd's 'Albion'

"It isn't our resistance to foreign influences that makes us English, he argues, but our ability to assimilate them: "Englishness is the principle of appropriation." We're a "mungrell" nation - hybrid, heterogenous, adaptive, accumulative, eclectic. Forget blood or genes. National traits come with the territory. The common ground we have is the ground itself. Placism, not racism, should be the slogan."

Taken from: Peter Ackroyd's 'Albion' (The Origins of the English Imagination)

"Placism, not racism, should be the slogan."

So, let's place Sid James and George Best right back where they belong, as part of English culture..alongside all the other people, places and things already mentioned in here.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 01:59 PM

"Of course SoH are in it to make enough to pay their mortgages. It's their job."

Bit like the Wandering Minstrels or Yore, then, singing for their suppers?


"I've never liked what they do as a band, I've always said so, knowing them to be capable of so much better."

I'm sure they'd love to have you coach them. :0)


"I don't think they mind."

Really? Try asking their manager, Vaughan. You can find him via their Myspace page.

And now, back to Sir Christopher Wren, or had we reached Nell Gwynne?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 02:22 PM

to relieve the tedium,some more mcgonagle.
The Christmas Goose

Mr. SMIGGS was a gentleman,
And he lived in London town;
His wife she was a good kind soul,
And seldom known to frown.

'Twas on Christmas eve,
And Smiggs and his wife lay cosy in bed,
When the thought of buying a goose
Came into his head.

So the next morning,
Just as the sun rose,
He jump'd out of bed,
And he donn'd his clothes,

Saying, "Peggy, my dear.
You need not frown,
For I'll buy you the best goose
In all London town."

So away to the poultry shop he goes,
And bought the goose, as he did propose,
And for it he paid one crown,
The finest, he thought, in London town.

When Smiggs bought the goose
He suspected no harm,
But a naughty boy stole it
From under his arm.

Then Smiggs he cried, "Stop, thief!
Come back with my goose!"
But the naughty boy laugh'd at him,
And gave him much abuse.

But a policeman captur'd the naughty boy,
And gave the goose to Smiggs,
And said he was greatly bother'd
By a set of juvenile prigs.

So the naughty boy was put in prison
For stealing the goose.,
And got ten days' confinement
Before he got loose.

So Smiggs ran home to his dear Peggy,
Saying, "Hurry, and get this fat goose ready,
That I have bought for one crown;
So, my darling, you need not frown."

"Dear Mr Smiggs, I will not frown:
I'm sure 'tis cheap for one crown,
Especially at Christmas time --
Oh! Mr Smiggs, it's really fine."

"Peggy. it is Christmas time,
So let us drive dull care away,
For we have got a Christmas goose,
So cook it well, I pray.

"No matter how the poor are clothed,
Or if they starve at home,
We'll drink our wine, and eat our goose,
Aye, and pick it to the bone."

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 02:29 PM

William McGonagall was Scottish (quite obviously).
So what's his tripe-like doggerel got to do with the topic?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 02:45 PM

paying mortgages.........!

well you can't get much done when you're homeless - not unless you fancy the Robert johnson road where you anaesthetise yourself to not not having a roof over your head, and make a swift exit halfway through the first act.

I suppose I've known the Paul Downes gang since about 1975. they've never shown much signs of being materialistic - quite the opposite. Its always been about making the music work.

Its taken a fair bit of idealism to get them where they are - rooms full of people nationwide singing their songs - despite never really getting on telly very much, no major label, no major agency, no hit record. stuff that mored favoured artists take as a given.

I'm sorry you can't see that. I'm sure they will do better - but really they've done pretty good.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 04:42 PM

Diane,he had aspirations to be poet laureate,his bad poetry is regarded by many as amusing,and since he has graced us with his lines on such notables as William Shakespeare ,and the royal family,he can be said to part of english culture.
An Ode to the Queen

All hail to the Empress of India, Great Britain's Queen!
Long may she live in health, happy and serene;
Loved by her subjects at home and abroad;
Blest may she be when lying down
To sleep, and rising up, by the Eternal God;
Happy may her visions be in sleep ...
And happy her thoughts in the day time;
Let all loyal subjects drink to her health
In a flowing bumper of Rhenish Wine.
And when the final hour shall come to summon her away,
May her soul be wafted to the realms of bliss,
I most sincerely do pray, to sing with saints above,
Where all is joy, peace and love -
In Heaven, for evermore to reign,
God Save the Queen. Amen.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 05:46 PM

I am reminded of a book of Graffiti I read when I was a lad.

One little gem, spotted in some public toilet somewhere no doubt, read as follows;

"To err is human ... to pretend you don't is English"

Oh England is a merry place.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 08:00 PM

I think the problem wasn't Jim's or my own cut-and-paste, per se, nor any "transatlantic person's" failure to comprehend Diane, but the fact that Diane's original formulation "more English than the Royal Family isn't" doesn't actually mean anything, on either side of the Atlantic.

Nonetheless, the basic point of her post was clear. My relatives, who are English Jews, in order to claim they are English must "ponce about, pretending to be English," but, luckily, this practice, also known as "the practice of immigrants (however far back) concealing their roots," is dying out.

I think most people on this thread have already disagreed with her on this, so we need say no more.

On the other hand, Diane's statement that "a South African Jewish comedian is scarcely representative of either Englishness or of culture" expands the question about Sid James's work a bit.

One can legitimately ask Sid James's work in the Carry On films counts as "English," which was Lizzie's original claim. James was in a series of English films, directed at an English audience, in which he played English characters. Certainly in many other countries, if an immigrant was so fully adopted into a country's cultural scene, especially from one of that country's former colonies, his work would count as part of that country's culture. This is, therefore, open to debate. Diane is welcome to her opinion that it isn't English culture, but this is by no means obvious or uncontroversial. Others can with equal justification say that it IS English culture.

Suggesting, as Diane does, that the films aren't an example of "culture" at all is using a values-based definition of culture. In this scheme, some artistic productions are culture and some aren't, and the arbiter uses his or her values to decide which is which. This is the same understanding of Culture that allows many English people to devalue folklore, or as Diane would say, "tradarts."

Luckily, this understanding of culture has been pretty forcefully rejected by those who study culture. We have learned that a series of popular films like Carry On can tell you as much about ordinary people as either so-called "high culture" (such as Shakespeare) or so-called "subcultures" (such as punk.) So within the British-pioneered discipline of "Cultural Studies," these films are, in fact, regarded as part of English culture.

In an article from the BBC online, here, Andy Medhurst, lecturer in film, media and cultural studies at Sussex University, said of the films that "They capture the way people living humdrum lives with limited horizons found a release in comedy. They seem to encapsulate an everyday life in Britain of that time."

Peter Ackroyd mentions the films in his book Albion - the Origins of the English Imagination, where he suggests that they are typically English, and moreover that they represent a stratum of English humor that goes back to middle English mystery plays.

English? Yes, many people think so.
Culture? Yes, many people think so.
English culture? Looks that way to me.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Tam
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 05:11 AM

So Diane just wants English tripe-like doggeral and I'm sure there's plenty.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 05:26 AM

doggeral (sic)

I can at least spell it.
I recommend actually reading the thread.
There are those who seem intent on contributing tripe-like doggerel to it - from dirgy, dodgy popsongs and pretentious Scottish crap principally - but none from me.
I am simply upholding the importance of English tradarts, as I am wont to do.
This is, after all, what this thread is supposed to be about, rather than extraneous bollocks. (Or is it?)
As I have already remarked elsewhere in the forum this morning. I recommend Specsavers. And engaging brain before fingers land on keyboard.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 05:41 AM

It's about this, actually:

The Culture of England - Wiki

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 05:50 AM

Yes, I see. Extraneous bollocks it is, then.
A rambling piece encompassing all manner of Humpty-Dumpty-like uncited and unreferenced sources.
Highly academic. Not.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:50 AM

One can legitimately ask Sid James's work in the Carry On films counts as "English," which was Lizzie's original claim. James was in a series of English films, directed at an English audience, in which he played English characters. Certainly in many other countries, if an immigrant was so fully adopted into a country's cultural scene, especially from one of that country's former colonies, his work would count as part of that country's culture.

Particularly since hardly any of his viewers would have realized he was from anywhere else. It had never occurred to me before this thread that he was anything other than a native Englishman with a Protestant background.

We don't often get to find out the ethnic background of British Jews in public life until we read it in their obituaries (or similar - I didn't realize Malcolm Rifkind was Jewish until he lost his seat and some journo wrote a political obit for him).

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:13 AM

To attempt to equate the Carry On trash films with "culture" is a step far too far. Even for Humpty Dumpty.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:26 AM

From the standard anthropological standpoint, "English culture" *does* include those films, along with Barbara Cartland, Commando comics, Spanish souvenir cruet sets mounted on a toy donkey and hen night parties in fishnets and fluffy plastic stetsons.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:32 AM

So no music then?
Oops, wrong forum, obviously.
Where do you go these days to discuss English tradarts?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:32 AM

Diane,if you cant appreciate bad poetry,that is so bad it is good,,and also extremely funny,it is a shame.
as far as I am concerned it is eminently more interesting and amusing,than much else on this thread.