BS: Tory party conference

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 08:22 PM

when Keith demands 'you' pander him with evidence of your points of argument...

so he can obsessively argue back against them...


Just say NO !!!



life's too short for all this boring petty nitpicking squabbling... 😣

[no matter how much it may appear to be dressed up in fusty grown up's academic big words....]

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 08:31 PM

Keith.. the real world of living breathing politics where people get heir hands dirty and their arses kicked;
is out there.. outside your house....

Not in front of a computer screen and keyboard.. inside textbooks..
or a point scoring one-upmanship game to be played out inside your head.....



...just a friendly reminder..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 02:13 AM

And everyone else please remember - it takes two to tango.

Jim et al - by engaging with him and his cadre, you come over as the same kind of twats as they are, arguing round and round, making the same points over and over, neither listening to the other. You've managed to fuck yet another thread with your ridiculous, puerile feud. It's childish, it's boring, IT'S SHITE!

We all know who the real cunts are - just ignore the fuckers and they'll fuck of and look elsewhere for their victims.

Jesus Christ almighty, get a fucking life, you bunch of squabbling shit-for-brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 02:14 AM

Of?

Off!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 04:04 AM

" you bunch of squabbling shit-for-brains."
These people have taken over thread after thread with their right-wing garbage - attacks on Muslims - on the Irish - support for Israeli terrorism - support for inaction in the Middle East - hompophobia -...... sure, if we ignore them, they will go away - 'course they will.
As far as I am, their campaign needs drawing attention to.
Very few people people take notice of their inhumanity and extremism (hasn't happened by ignoring them), but they're still at it, this little band of brothers.
We could accept these discussions as nice little fireside chats between agreeing adults - I'm more than happy to link what they have to say with what's happening in the world today.
Just received this from Ake's home territory of Scotland - while he and his friends here are telling us of the evil immigrants - this is what is happening there.
Jim Carroll
"David Cameron's Trade Union bill is a dangerous affront to democracy. It permits replacement workers, makes striking nearly impossible, and takes direct aim at the funding of the Tories' political opponents. And Scottish councils are fighting it with everything they've got.
It is truly a stirring display of solidarity. All 32 of Scotland's local authorities have promised to ignore the controversial bill when it becomes law, rendering it useless north of the border. "This is a new generation's poll tax moment," says Gary Smith, the GMB union's acting secretary in Scotland.
Our unions have made our workplaces safer and have raised the standard of living for every working Briton. They are worth defending. Imagine what would happen if councils throughout the UK showed the same defiance and togetherness as their Scottish cousins?
Join us in asking all British councils to reject the undemocratic Trade Union bill and refuse to enforce its terms.
The timing of this bill, launched less than a week after the conclusion of the Tube strike in London, is extremely cynical. It will make it next-to-impossible for workers to exercise their democratic right to job action. A union now needs approval from 50% of all eligible voters to withhold their labour, instead of just a majority of members who cast a ballot. That is a higher standard than Britain uses to elect its MPs, its mayors and its Prime Minister.
This bill also targets the funding of the Labour party -- it will force unions to get their members to "opt in" to the political levy every five years. Most unions don't have the capacity to engage in such an exercise. The right of a union to collect funds to fight for its interests and protection has always been part of its mandate. But the Tories are taking the opportunity to strip that away too --while doing nothing to limit the way corporations and hedge funds fill Conservative Party coffers.
Over 100,000 SumOfUs members are fighting this bill. And Scottish councils just gave us a new tactic. If we stand together, we can turn back this piece of dangerous legislation -- just like when union leaders stopped Margaret Thatcher's poll tax debacle in 1993.
Together, we can stop this bill. Tell your local council to ignore David Cameron's dangerous, undemocratic Trade Union Bill."

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 04:21 AM

'you' pander him with evidence of your points of argument

If only you did.
When I ask for evidence or examples you all fall silent.

Steve, you posted this,

The Guardian often refers to "unrestricted immigration."
Please provide examples of this. As you say "often", about three would suffice. The context of each instance would be essential, of course.



I provided four examples from recent months where that expression was used.
It took a few seconds, not "an afternoon."

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 04:30 AM

Keith.. the real world of living breathing politics where people get heir hands dirty and their arses kicked;
is out there.. outside your house....

I know.
That is where I am looking.
I remind you that my views are mainstream, yours a fringe minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 04:37 AM

Did you actually read the articles. For example in the first dated 10th August the reporter undermines the statements made earlier in the year by Teresa May and Philip Hammond.

No you didn't read it did you.

Quelle surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 05:15 AM

For fuck's sake Jim - how many times do you have to 'draw attention to them'? You've done it non-fucking-stop for years, and to what effect?

They're winding you up! Pissing themselves laughing at you, as you try to out-argue their constant flow of circular arguments.

What a bunch of fucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 05:44 AM

The man is bonkers - nothing to do obviously!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 05:52 AM

"You've done it non-fucking-stop for years, and to what effect?"
Nobody takes them seriously, Keith has stopped his saturation posting and his 'last wordism'
A start
I suspect we have more in common than we have disagreements - you do it your way, I'll do it mine.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 05:57 AM

Back off, Backwoodsman. Your gratuitously sweary rants are having precisely the opposite effect to what you claim to want, just getting people's backs up. You don't have to read what you don't want to read. Respectfully yours and ducking.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 06:05 AM

Raggy I do know that Guardian articles tend to be left wing.
I was not citing them in support of my views.
I cited them because they used an expression that Jim said, "is designed to appeal tho the knuckles along the ground mob,"

Guardian readers?

I said Guardian often used it, Steve asked for examples, and I produced them.
What did I do wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:25 AM

Can i put a proposition to you? something that occurs to me. can we do it without name calling?

Morally is there really any difference from pillaging the public purse for banker bonuses than doing it to assuage your consciences for what is the result of our capitalist militarism?

We all like the nice things that capitalism brings us - cheap guitars from China, cheap coal from peasant miners, cheap food from everywhere. and it gives us a tax pot of money. We need that money to educate our kids and take care of our walking wounded - all of whom are really fucked over by our culture.

just because you feel sorry for these immigrants, many of them displaced by military action our politicos have , at very least. condoned - does that give you the moral right to admit them to a place by our fireside? an expense we didn't have in mind when raised the tax.

i know how i feel. unsure. none of the name calling, self righteousness and viciousness convinces me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:25 AM

"Back off, Backwoodsman"

Back off yourself, Steve - your record doesn't make pretty reading if we go back a few months, so don't come all holier-than-thou with me.

And, if you cared to think about it, the tone of my recent posts, plus others who have complained, together with the dozens of regulars who've voted with their feet, and the number of closed threads this past year or so, should tell you how pissed-off many members are with the Keyboard Warriors who insist on fighting the same old battles ad nauseam, and wreck every thread they join.

Yours sincerely,
"Pissed-Off of Lincolnshire".

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 08:02 AM

Fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:10 AM

"I remind you that my views are mainstream, yours a fringe minority."

.. and that'll be the stagnant toxic polluted stream where wallowing in the mire of inertia,
conformity, ignorance, and delusion is considered a proud virtue...??? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:18 AM

No Pfr.
I only mention it because you so airily dismiss any view of mine as being of no consequence and based on ignorance of the real world.

The real world is where most people live.
Most people hold views much closer to mine than yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:18 AM

Keith appeals to higher forces at all times. This time it's to a mythical majority he thinks he belongs to.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:36 AM

"and I produced them."
One more time Keith;
YOU DID NOT
You produced 4 links - two of those links did not mention "unrestricted emigration" in any way shape or form - it appeared in the search page but but not in the articles themselves - an indication that you don't even read your own links.
The article that does mention "unrestricted emigration" does so to debunk it - to point out that immigration in any way, shape or form does not effect the British people adversely and also that the actual figures are grossly inflated.
The last mention is from a reader and is not part of the linked article.
All the articles say the same thing - immigration and immigrants are being used as political whipping boys.
As Steve has pointed out, "unrestricted immigration" does not exist other than in the mind of the right wing press and racist parties like Ukip.
ALL IMMIGRATION IS SUBJECT TO RESTRICTION IN BRITAIN
How about trying to prove that is not true?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:40 AM

Keith.. you misunderstand.. I do not dismiss your views
[there might actually be an uncomfortable area of accord between our opinions on certain issues ???]..

What I do disdain, is your tedious pernickety waffling style of debate,
your perpetually provoking petty circular arguments with your arch rivals,
which usually jams up and derails any interesting threads...

There inevitably comes a point in most threads where discernible groan inducing 'Keith discussion paralysis symptoms'
signal the end of any useful debate, and the imminent closure of that thread.... 😫

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:43 AM

To be more specific, the two linked articles: "10 truths about Europe's migrant crisis" and "EU plans migrant quotas forcing states to 'share' burden", do not mention "unrestricted immigration" in any way shape or form - feel free to show that they do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 12:12 PM

Keith does belong to a majority, most people in the UK are "centreists"....Keith expounds a centre political philosophy, one which I sometimes disagree with, but he is civil and an excellent debater.   He cuts through all the myths which the soft left love and hold on to, even when these myths are proved to be political idiocy, like unregulated immigration from the EU.
Or the pretence that we have any real alternative to the Conservative Party, if we are determined to run a "democracy" funded by the Capitalist system.

I thought the election of a mild socialist might have changed your minds about the charade which has been Party politics for the last few decades, but no! you just fight the same old faux battles, the moth eaten ideologies which have all failed miserably.

Can't you admit even to yourselves the state that society is in?
Youth unemployment, food banks, bankrupt NHS, wage stagnation, huge numbers of immigrants driving down wages......why do you think this is happening?   Evil Tories? you must be fucking mad!   We no longer balance the bloody books, it costs money and takes time to train our people, many are mired in a benefits swamp, where work is so poorly paid that a young couple with children cannot lead a normal life.

Start looking beyond the soft left ideology, the view that we can be personally well off in an economic system in decline.

Take on board that everyone must be made to realise that our present wasteful lifestyle is completely unsustainable. This system is dead. It is an Ex System.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 12:18 PM

"Keith does belong to a majority,"
The majority of people in Britain are totally disillusioned with politics and politicians and do not vote.
The Tories hold office with a minority of those who do vote - a minority of a minority.
Keith is in a minority - simple mathematics.
"Can't you admit even to yourselves the state that society is in?"
Yes we can - and your support of fascists like Ukip and attacking the Trades Unions, and those in need like immigrants is going to make matters a damn sight worse.
We don't need right wingers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 12:39 PM

The majority of people in Britain are totally disillusioned with politics and politicians and do not vote.

Utter nonsense.

"At the 2001 general election the turnout was 59.4%; in 2005 it was 61.4%; in 2010 it was 65.1%; and in 2015 it was 66.1%" From here

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 01:02 PM

Jim, the "free movement of labour" says that there should be no impediment to economic migrants entering any country in the EU.

That is unrestricted? Or do you know something that we don't? Maybe you should tell the leaders of all political parties?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 01:36 PM

Free movement of labour within the EU is indeed a myth. You need an EU passport. You need the money to travel. You need the wherewithal to up sticks and leave your home. You need hide like a rhinoceros to put up with the shit you will get. Nothing in this world is free.

BWM. It is a good theory and one that has been expounded on many forums. You are to be applauded for sticking to you beliefs but, sadly, I have seen it fail all to often. If you continue to ignore the the more extreme views they end up taking over. In my opinion the worse thing the majority can do is let a minority take over. I will not bore you with Pastor Martin Niemöller's well known statement but we would all do well to remember it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 01:58 PM

Dave - Can't disagree with your 2nd point..

But do put up for consideration - effective prioritisation of skirmishes and battle, and best tactics / strategies for confronting and resisting... ???

Certainly the importance of avoiding falling into trap of facilitating letting the 'enemy' set the battleground
and terms and method of engagement...

Just to fuel all side's pride & vanity at not being seen to down a a singleinch...

ie.. squabbling on for bloody days about the use of just one word.. eg.. "unrestricted" 😴

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 02:40 PM

"Jim, the "free movement of labour" says that there should be no impediment to economic migrants entering any country in the EU."
There are restrictions - you have had a list of them from Steve - are you claiming anybody can walk in?
The European Union charter allows free movement to and from Member States (with the qualifications Dave just listed), but that is a two way process offered to citizens of Britain who wish to work in Europe - no problem by me - wish it had been available when I was younger.
Am I to assume that you are not going to respond to Keith's and your 'inaccuracies' about what he linked and didn't link and whethet he is in the "majority" or not.
I find your hit-and-run style of debate more and more fascinating the more you indulge in it.
"Utter nonsense."
I was taking elections as a whole - having said which, the Tories took 37% of the vote - not a majority as Keith or Ake claims.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 02:49 PM

The only "restriction" that can be put on EU migrants is the need for an EU passport.
That is a given, surely? All immigrants everywhere need a passport.....Jesus Christ!! what a bunch of numpties.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 03:00 PM

A passport. And money. And the bottle to do it. Numpty indeed...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 03:25 PM

well it won't get you into most places where there is a living to be had. the states or australa for example...

so it does make us fairly unique.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 03:40 PM

In all honesty, Al, and without wishing to set a booby trap (not a debating tactic I approve of), do you really think that the US and Oz have got better policies than ours?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 06:27 PM

The point is, anyone of working age and resident in the EU can come here without restrictions.....that amounts to hundreds of millions of people who have the option to come here if they wish.
To me that is absolute madness and hellishly unfair to the people who worked hard and fought two wars to keep us free.
They have to watch their children rot on miserly benefits with no self respect and little chance of a proper job....a country fit for hero's?

Is Australian immigration policy more sensible than ours? Very definitely yes, their immigration policy is aimed at benefitting the whole of the Australian people, not wet nursing the world.

America's borders appear to be pretty porous....but that is illegal immigration, we haven't a bloody clue how many illegal immigrants are here for the beer.

In this area, the police have a round -up every few months and a couple of van loads are collected from the Indian restaurants and kebab shops.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 06:54 PM

"The point is, anyone of working age and resident in the EU can come here without restrictions.....that amounts to hundreds of millions of people who have the option to come here if they wish."

You just don't listen, do you? You know, I've had PMs from mods defending you, saying that you're entitled, etc., but you don't engage, do you? This thread contains measured posts about why the attitude your comments betray is so misguided. Your remark about hundreds of millions is archetypal UKIP scaremongering. You know damn well that hundreds of millions have no such real-world options. Read the bloody thread and learn, or just knock it off with your illiberal and inhumane nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:03 PM

If we left the EU and remained part of the UK then about 60 million people would still be unrestricted and be able to come and live in Scotland. Our schools and sewage system couldn't possibly cope!!! Then again we all know very well that the entire population of the UK isn't really going to move to Scotland.....Just as we know full well that hundreds of millions of EU citizens aren't coming to the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:05 PM

Simply illustrating the idiocy of the policy Steve. Calm down, haven't you had your hot milk yet? Its after midnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:20 PM

to be honest i know sod all about entry to the states or australia. i find it a bit of a stretch going to poole and bournemouth folk clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:22 PM

Allan ...of course "hundreds of millions" are not going to come here, but they DO have the option.
What is the limit? or is there no limit?
Net immigration is currently running at 350000 per annum, that's over half a million coming here every year and rising.
We have no means of stopping that without pulling out of the EU

What are we going to do about our own young people on benefits or jobs with zero hours contracts, when another couple of million are here working for low wages.
Its heaven for poor Eastern Europeans, but hell for young Scots.

I don't know where you live Allan but have you ever visited the schemes in the East of Glasgow, Possil, Greenock, Dumbarton, Clydebank?.....I have, been through the stinking high rises, seen the effects of the rampant drug culture.....two lost bewildered and hopeless generations.   rotting away because it's cheaper to import labour than give our children a purpose and a fucking future.

Occasionally I get angry.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:28 PM

BTW AL Thanks for the link to your music, it's great. Enjoyed "Una Bhan" very much. Your guitar has a terrific tone, mine sounds like a cardboard box in comparison. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:28 PM

"Simply illustrating the idiocy of the policy Steve. Calm down, haven't you had your hot milk yet? Its after midnight."

Without any help from me you have illustrated the idiocy of your scaremongering. And you know me. Never anything other than calm. Sensible post from Allan. Read and learn. If you can read at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:35 PM

Allan, have you been taking lessons in irony from Mr McGrath?

Sewage and Education!....tut tut!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 09:38 PM

i think this is the perennial problem with left wing idealists. my parents were cnd/greepeace/quakers.

they were so excited when michael foot pipped Hattersley for the labour leadership. i said well thats the tories in for the next eight years - i was ten years out.

you can NEVER get these people to appreciate what a bad deal poor people get from the tories, and how vital to basic decency they don't get elected.

i see so clearly what you're saying Ake on this subject. the bottom of society is very bad for poor people in England.

i can remember reasoning with some trotskyists who were refusing to let james callaghan make a single campaign speech in 1979. they really didn't give a shit about the poor children in my classes in the inner ring of brum, and what would befall England if Thatcher got elected. not a fucking clue. it was all taking us towards the great revolution.

this present policy can only benefit one section of our society.

we are wasting our time - you reasoning with a paint by numbers liberalism that is just pandering to their guilty conscience for living in a rich country.

i got the the story legend of Una Bhan from an album by Joe Heaney. i sent it to to the local tourist office in Ireland they didn't seem much interested. the bass is a bit wanky on it - i get impatient - i lack that quietude of mind that produces masterpieces. i still think it s a good idea. they'll love me when i'm dead. possibly...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:41 AM

a href="https://twitter.com/junayed_/status/489807629456523264?s=04">Best Daily Mail correction ever.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:46 AM

Try again...

Best Daily Mail correction ever.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:54 AM

"The only "restriction" that can be put on EU migrants is the need for an EU passport."
No it isn't and the the fact you are studiously ignoring is that it works both ways and British people can step outside of 'fortress Britain' to seek work and expand their horizons, should they wish - one of the greatest advantages of the E.U. to the British people.
Of course, they could be left to stew in their own juice in Britain's boot camps and on the unemployment lines - (1.6m at present time - and this doesn't include those forced to take unpleasant and inappropriate work in order to stay alive).
One of the great differences between British and Irish youth is that so many of the latter have chased work all around the globe, acquired skills, languages and experience that I have seldom encountered in those back home - and I'm not talking about the ones who have had the benefit of a higher education and are looking for careers.
The end result is a broader-minded, far more internationally tolerant group of young people.
Emigration for work should never be forced on anybody, but it certainly is an advantage when offered as an opportunity.   
".that amounts to hundreds of millions of people who have the option to come here if they wish"
"Research conducted by the Migration Policy Institute for the Equality and Human Rights Commission suggests that, between May 2004 and September 2009, 1.5 million workers migrated from the new EU member states to the UK, but that many have returned home, with the result that the number of nationals of the new member states in the UK increased by some 700,000 over the same period.Migration from Poland in particular has become temporary and circular in nature."
SECRET STATISTICS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:28 AM

"The only "restriction" that can be put on EU migrants is the need for an EU passport."
No it isn't ...
Yes it is Jim.
And Dave, there are no restrictions on EU citizens entering UK.
No border restrictions.
The need to buy a ticket is not a restriction.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:31 AM

It is if you have no money.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:37 AM

Dave's link has some anti Mail stuff by Mehdi Hasan.
A different story when he tried to get a job on it.
Hypocrite.

http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2013/10/mehdi-hasan-please-please-please-can-i-work-for-the-daily-mail/

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:41 AM

It is if you have no money.

Yes Rag.
There is a similar restriction on many everyday activities, but it is not a border control.
There are no border controls on EU migration.
Such immigration is unrestricted.