BS: Tory party conference

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:56 AM

As for left-right displaying a bell curve... your biggest hurdle being to define your terms

Agreed. The terms are probably more difficult to define than 'folk'. That's why I used the word 'assumption'. I used the word 'reasonable' in that every successful UK government of recent decades has concluded that appealing the 'centre ground' is essential, hence my conclusion that the centre holds the majority.

Again, you may well argue as to what that means and disagree. However, we'd only get into a pointless semantic discussion. And I'm not doing that, but I stand by what I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:13 AM

That's reasonable enough! I do think any assessment of Keith, which is probably not worth sweating over in any case, should be based on his long history here, not a denial in his most recent post. The bottom line is that he resents being called right-wing yet wishes to espouse just about every right-wing angle of the topics that come up. The answer to his displeasure lies in his own hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:28 AM

I think you see everything you read in black and white. Keith and I disagree about many things, but I cannot fault his reason, his research, or his personal credibility.

Keith has been vilely abused for years, for pointing out the inherent flaws in mass unrestricted immigration.

Remember when this issue first came up how you called him a bigot and a racist just for discussing the topic.

Now only the ideologically blind or the terminally stupid cling to the idea that we can continue to accept the present rates of immigration.
How about a mass apology to someone brave enough to "think the unthinkable" amongst a hostile company?

This is the value of Mudcat, it exposes cant and cronyism.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:36 AM

Bearing in mind the last time I needed to draw a graph was in my Economics A Level in 1977....

I visualise my political make up as a waveform similar to a recorded music track in a software DAW,
or to a heart rate monitor blip screen in Hollywood action movies
where the innocent victim is in a near death condition after a shooting.


If the vertical axis depicts extreme left to right,
and the horizontal is a list of political issues....

Then I see my waveform as fairly consistently flat in the centre on mixed market economics / green environment /
any issues I have no strong opinion on, or lack sufficient knowledge or interest;
with leftward spikes on Trade Unions & industrial relations/ health & safety /social housing /healthcare..
and veering right directional spikes on law and order / conventional defence [non nuke] /
mobile phone users with irritating ring tones...

I think I might be wary of, or prepared to take the piss out of anyone with all their spikes
or even a dead flat line way off in either extreme from zero point in the centre... 😜

But it does make sense to be constantly self aware of your own wave form just as a health and sanity check up....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 08:00 AM

Now only the ideologically blind or the terminally stupid cling to the idea that we can continue to accept the present rates of immigration.

Why? Because the politicians say so? Because the newspapers say so? Does anyone actually think for themselves any more or is it all based on what they are told by their 'betters', by 'experts' with hidden agendas and on what the majority think?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 08:46 AM

My name's Rob Roy MacGegor, I'm a personal friends of Winston Churchill....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 08:57 AM

What the majority thinks ! God forbid that we pay any attention to that .

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:10 AM

Ever had a look at the UKIP manifesto. One wonderful example:

"Abolish inheritance tax. Assets bought out of taxed income should not be taxed again when their owners die. We will strike out the hated 'death tax.' It hits the middle classes hardest, those who have worked to provide for their dependents, because the wealthiest almost always manage to avoid paying it"

Not lets change the law so that no-one can avoid paying the tax, the threshold for payment after expenses is £325,000 by the way, but lets abolish the tax because some people get away without paying.

Brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:16 AM

Another piece just for Ake:

"UKIP believes the Barnett Formula has passed its sell-by date.
Spending has become increasingly unfair, with Scotland receiving
a considerably higher per capita spend, despite moving towards
further tax-raising and spending powers of its own. Scotland receives almost £1,400 more per person in public spending than the UK average and nearly £450 more than Wales. This is why Scotland is able to spend in a manner not possible elsewhere in the UK"

and:

"Scotland has 'markedly lower overall need than Wales"

Scotland up S**t Creek without a paddle if UKIP were ever elected me thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:29 AM

"Remember when this issue first came up how you called him a bigot and a racist just for discussing the topic."

This is just a lie, and a pretty silly one at that. You make things up as you go along, you poor thing.

"What the majority thinks ! God forbid that we pay any attention to that."

A huge majority was in favour of keeping hanging just before we abolished it. A huge majority in Germany in the 30s supported Hitler. We should pay attention to it all right, and then decide that we are not sheep.

If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away. -- Henry David Thoreau

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:46 AM

I agree we need to pay attention to the majority, it is what I meant in my post.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:50 AM

Fine, but that was not the sentiment of that post, and you know it. You were being sarcastic and your sarcasm was misplaced. However.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:11 AM

'
Now only the ideologically blind or the terminally stupid cling to the idea that we can continue to accept the present rates of immigration.

Why? Because the politicians say so? Because the newspapers say so? Does anyone actually think for themselves any more or is it all based on what they are told by their 'betters', by 'experts' with hidden agendas and on what the majority think?'

well Dave i think a fair indication of the fact that things have come to a pretty pass is when someone recounts to you in a fair reasonable manner ( refusing to embellish with anything he didn't see or hear)an incident that befell him, and he gets denounced as making a racist remark.

like it said in a few good men, you can't handle the truth. or recognise genuine concern. disagreement with your extremely limited and doctrinaire viewpoint is ascribed dastardly motives.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:17 AM

Big Al, Could I make a suggestion without you having a go at me. There is only one person who keeps bringing this issue to the fore. Why not drop the matter as there is only one person being damaged by the recurrence of it.

Best Wishes

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:11 AM

Al - As I said before. Every time you bring it up I shall mention that your recollection of events is different to mine. I believe you made a racist remark and said so. I gave you the opportunity to explain as I believe you are not really a racist. Instead of doing so, you spat out your dummy and stormed off in a huff. You know you are right. I know I am right. No one can substantiate any of it.

Feel free to keep on mentioning it as I now have the above as a note I can C&P every time. I suggest however, as Raggy does, that you get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 09:19 AM

you really don't get it.

keith gets called right wing

ake a homophobe.

i get called the kind of person who goes round making racist remarks.

you are hurtful, and none of you give a shit how hurtful.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 09:33 AM

Sorry, Al, but you pressed on this.

You really don't get it. You call east Europeans criminals. That is hurtful to me and you don't give a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 10:10 AM

No he didn't. Your attack on him, Dave, was nasty and uncalled for. I remember it well, one of the nastier incidents on mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 10:27 AM

so not long after the Keith & Jim feud quiets down a bit..

the Al & Dave feud kicks off again..

Can't these things just be settled with a public pillow fight
staged on a plank over a large kiddie's paddling pool filled with jelly or baked beans...

At least that might help a raise a few quid for charity... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 11:12 AM

well look. its just this. if you'e got an opinion - i think thats fair enough. i f you've got an opinion about someone else's opinion - that's fair enough. there are ways to go about expressing your opinion without abuse and name calling.

if you are an lying abusive lout. become an MP , and go on prime ministers questions time. go on the jeremy kyle show - there are avenues for you to express yourself.

mudcat can really do without it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 12:45 PM

there again, PFR, Keith does in my opinion talk 24 carat bollocks about the first world war. the general impression yu get talking to veterans of ww1 and ww2. is that they really had to watchrheir arse as the officers were always handing out orders that could have got you killed every day.

however it is not up to me to deduce that he is some sort of fascist. right wing and left wing? Stalin handed out a fair few stupid orders to commit suicide.

No one has any business impugning Keith's character.

Ake's views on same sex marriage remind me of the same sort of shit my Dad used to talk. And he was a policeman who used to spend his time trying to catch cottaging gays. I have seen the lecture notes supplied with a lecture that taught that anal intercourse could kill you.

However I don't know how Ake came about his views. Perhaps he came into contact with same bonkers brigade that educated my Dad.Its a thundering cheek to pretend that his views give you an insight into his character.

And I'm not a person who goes round making racist comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:18 PM

Sorry, PFR, but I am only responding to some very serious allegations here. Al said that east Europeans were criminals, increased crime in the areas in which they settled and then denied having said it. I didn't imagine it. I didn't make it up. I was very sensitive to it at the time as I had just lost my (Polish) Father and was rather taken aback to find that some believed him to come from criminal stock, even though he was the most honest person I have ever known.

I know one truth. Al, apparently, knows another one. Luckily for him the thread in question was deleted. Luckily for me it doesn't matter who believes who as my work means that I do not have to win friends and influence people. Unluckily for Al, his occupation means just that and if I were a music promoter reading this I would have serious doubts about booking someone who may not be entirely honest.

Even after all that I am happy to let it lie. But, as you can see, Al wants to resurrect it at every opportunity regardless of what damage it is doing to both Mudcat and himself. Takes all sorts to make a world...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:25 PM

Al - you're one of my favourite blokes here...

Jim/Steve/Dave/Ake [yes even Ake]/ and all the other usual characters..

I like and respect different aspects about all of them as well..

Just much as I can find things to criticize, or even dislike about some of 'em....

Keith is different.. I find him very boring and far too disruptive, and a liability.

So if I appear to be having a go at him, it's basically out of self interest..

He seems to be the one who most derails the threads I enjoy,
usually starting the rot that brings them to a premature end.

Now I don't even dislike Keith.. He's probably too bland to upset me that much,

But I just wish he'd think more carefully about how he gives the impression to other people
that he is right wing.

He clearly doesn't like being evaluated as a right winger.

So surely it would help him and us if he tried to became a little bit more self aware and considerate
of how he presents his persona to all the rest of us.
Plus the mainly negative impact he has on what start out as and interesting and entertaining discussions ....???

I come here to waste a few minutes leaning from and being cheered up
by seriously good quality wise and creative minds...

What is frustrating about Keith, is he is clearly an intelligent bloke, who can make solid astute points in a debate
whenever he's not droning on with petty dragged out pedantic squabbles.....

Now I'm no amateur psychologist..
but for Keith's and our own mutual benefit - maybe we could view this as a positive friendly community effort
at 'intervention'...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:35 PM

No he didn't. Your attack on him, Dave, was nasty and uncalled for. I remember it well, one of the nastier incidents on mudcat.

HiLo. You are simply wrong. It was called for. I have confirmation from a very reliable source that it was as I have said. But there is no point in trading memories and, without the required validation, there is even less point in trying to prove or disprove anything. I will ask you to look at the past few times it has been mentioned though to see who brought the subject up in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:41 PM

So, anyway, I am always to to use the phrase 'it did not matter who started it. It is who finished it that counts.' I am more than happy to stand by that adage and stop right here and now, Al. How about it? You don't bring it up. I will not respond. Only a handful of people read these things anyway and even those will have forgotten in a day or two. Surely you don't want to continue the same argument on every thread that you get the opportunity to, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:48 PM

Dave - I make no secret that I save all threads that I've posted to, or interest me.

[It actually helped out a little bit to restore some of the damage after the last great Mudcat server crash]

But annoyingly, my own Hard Drive failure during summer lost all data that hadn't been backed up since last Nov.

Including one inexcusably deleted thread with some excellent insightful posts from Joe.

So if your thread was before Nov 2014, there's a chance I might still have it on a back up drive somewhere....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 02:00 PM

Thanks for the offer, PFR, but as my Dad passed away in January this year I do know it was after that. I think it was towards the end of May this year but, to be honest, I can't confirm that. I can't even remember what the thread was about and it would have been entirely forgotten by now had the argument not have been resurrected by someone. I don't like feuds but I will stand up for myself if someone keeps having a go at me! If you can find anything from around the end of May-ish I would appreciate it as it may help to close the incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 02:21 PM

Sorry, I lost everything [all six months of links to resources and articles, and saved info] between Nov and June-ish

I was actually preparing a much delayed back up when the drive suddenly refused to switch back on ever again...

A Lesson to be learnt there.. 😞

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 02:40 PM

nobody likes being described as a racist, doesn't mean they aren't. no-one it seems likes being described as right-wing either but obviously there must be a few around. i can honestly say that i have had less than half a dozen conversations with folk prepared to argue a Conservative point of view in my life. i reckon that UKIP supporters are preferable to tories, as at least they are far more honest about their views and more likely to argue their case. scarier but not as sleekit.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 03:16 PM

Ah well - Thanks anyway PFR. Much appreciated. I backed up mine last week - It had been 3 months since the last one! Must do it more regularly. You would think being a computer specialist I would but you know what they say - The cobblers wife is always poorest shod. Or something like that.

Anyway, back to the Tories. Did you see PMs questions? Bunch of hooray Henrys laughing at the plight of the poor. If nothing else, Jeremy Corbyn is showing the Tories off in all their heartlessness. If any more proof was needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 03:34 PM

i could have easily have lied in the first instance, and said that i heard Polish accents. I didn't. I am honest.

You are dishonest and abusive Dave.

You wish to bury your lies and dishonesty with bluster.

You have no shame. Thankfully I found outlets for my music outside the folkscene.

Never had to pander to likes of malevolent nowters.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:00 PM

i suppose you want me to say.

lets forget. and you will go on picking on the people you see as unpopular or marginalised and seeping in poison.

i can't promise to be on hand every time the mods let you get away with it. but everytime i see you at it, it reminds me of how i felt when iwas the object of your censure.

i doubt i will be able to keep quiet on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:32 PM

No lies or dishonesty from me, Al, and there is only one person I can see blustering with abuse rather than reason. But if that is the way you want to play it, so be it.

You said specifically that there was a crowd of east Europeans looting a shop when you had no evidence at all that they were east Europeans.

You reported that an old friend of yours from the police force said that crime increases where there is a high influx of your east Europeans.

These are, in my mind, both racist comments.

Feel free to carry on. I will lend you my shovel if you like but I really would recommend that you stop digging.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:56 PM

'You reported that an old friend of yours from the police force said that crime increases where there is a high influx of your east Europeans.'

i have no old friends in the police force so i know this another damned lie.

the other one was outed by Hi-lo, whom i don't know.

you and your friends pick on the tainted wethers of the flock cos you think you can get away with being very nasty bullies. it is just so despicable. you make the air around you on mudcat foul - you are SO out of control.

then you wonder why threads get closed - not me guv.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:54 AM

From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 12:45 PM

Ake's views on same sex marriage remind me of the same sort of shit my Dad used to talk. And he was a policeman who used to spend his time trying to catch cottaging gays. I have seen the lecture notes supplied with a lecture that taught that anal intercourse could kill you.
...
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:56 PM

'You reported that an old friend of yours from the police force said that crime increases where there is a high influx of your east Europeans.'

i have no old friends in the police force so i know this another damned lie.


Is your Dad not an old friend then? Do you not know any of his former colleagues? Carry on digging, Al. I am happy to help.

It is abuse like calling people liars that gets threads closed. I could well have been mistaken about the police bit but old friend it definitely was. Followed by you making some excuse about 'single men in barracks'. It is not made up.

Are you really going to follow me round every thread chanting names in the hope I go away? Sad really and it won't work. Except to get threads closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 04:47 AM

no he left in 1965. he's dead, so's everyone who knew him - i expect.

so basically the scenario we are faced with this morning.

you intend to carry on denouncing people from your unassailable position of moral superiority. you intend to carry on abusing, distorting and getting hot under the collar if anyone cuts up rough at the antics of the nasty gang.
and the platform you have chosen for this is a humble, idealistic website about folk music.

believe you would fit in so much better on the platform of the tory party conference. they would love and honour you. Peter LIlley used to do these wonderful speeches denouncing unmarried mother, disabled people and other such stinkers -used to go down a storm. they'd love you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 05:11 AM

you intend to carry on denouncing people from your unassailable position of moral superiority. you intend to carry on abusing, distorting and getting hot under the collar if anyone cuts up rough at the antics of the nasty gang.

I am not sure where to start with that but I will try

- I have no position of 'moral superiority'. I am no better or worse than anyone else.

- I have not distorted anything

- I do not get hot under the collar.

- I may denounce and abuse but only when the situation warrants it. EG, now.

You are talking through your arse. I know what happened. You know what happened. They are two different views that, luckily for you, no one can substantiate. You are making allegations about me that far outstrip anything that I am supposed to have said about you and you do so at every opportunity. If anyone is being vindictive it is obvious who it is. Luckily, your opinion of me is none of my business and no one of any consequence to me would believe a word you say anyway. Feel free to carry on with your futile vendetta but remember to get more blood pressure tablets before you blow a fuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:47 AM

Al, This is the post you placed:

"People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston. As keith says - its very easy if you live faraway from a problem to get sniffy and dismiss what other people are going through.
I suppose i am a comfortable lefty these days. boston was an insular sort of town - maybe the awakening was long overdue. but i think its been a rough passage for boston people. ! stood on boston green. an old school friend, who nowadays runs a quid shop was standing next to me.. Somme Eastern european looters ran out of his shop with things they'd nicked. i sad - why don't you call the police? no point Al, he said. nothing to be done there. my old man was a cop in boston. god knows what he would have made of it"

In the post you PRESUMED the looters were eastern European, you did not KNOW they were and that is the bit that matters. That is the bit that caused offense.

Now as I said yesterday I would really suggest you stop mentioning the subject. Time to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:51 AM

That last post was I

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 07:47 AM

Thank you, Raggy.

...at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston...

Is just one of the comments I railed against. There were others. I think this supports my indignation. Maybe I was being over sensitive but I did offer every opportunity to explain. That was thrown back in my face and I was called every sort of name under the sun.

I am still happy to let it drop but I suspect it will not be.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 08:37 AM

The legendary Hatfield–McCoy feud festered on for nearly half a century....

But at least they got a very entertaining mini series out of it,
with loads of exciting violent gun fights and murders.... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 08:55 AM

I had never heard of it PFR so I looked it up :-)

For those interested.

Don't think i can beat that!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 09:03 AM

Pistols at dawn would keep the thread shorter. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:21 AM

I would prefer PFRs earlier suggestion of a pillow fight over a pool of jelly. But then again it does go against my restraining order...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:32 AM

i didn't presume the they were eastern europe. but iam an honest decent man. i knew they were. i could not   remember why i knew. i was unwilling to lie on this point. i could have fabricated evidence

you were willing to lie by calling this a racist comment. rather than an account of events that befell me and things that were said on a rare visit to my home town

no apology about your lie saying i had been talking to policemen.

in conclusion

you are an abusive liar.
you have neither honesty. straightforwardness. nor decency. coupled with that is veiled threat to smear my name.

simple as.

people will have to choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:59 AM

I am happy to apologise for saying you were talking to a policeman. I have already said I could well be mistaken about the policeman comment but if it makes you happier, sorry for saying it. I was obviously conflating two sets of ideas in one. In my defense, it has been proven that both lawlessness and police were mentioned by you in the same post and it was almost 6 moths ago.

It is not a lie to call it a racist comment. It is a racist comment, simple as that. Both the comment about it being east Europeans looting and them causing lawlessness are propagating a negative image of east Europeans. Which make them racist comments. Why should I apologise for a lie that I have not committed? Neither have I made any threats, veiled or otherwise, but you have accused me of making something up that has now been proven to be true. I do not expect an apology as you were obviously mistaken, as I was about the policeman. We all make mistakes. Once again I make the same offer. You stop bringing it up and I will stop telling my side of the story. It really is a no-brainer.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 12:01 PM

...back to the Tory party conference. I think pistols at dawn would be a good idea there. It could halve the Tory party in one morning. Except they would probably all miss...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 12:05 PM

Al, I am caught between a rock and a hard place. Firstly I know Dave slightly and the little time I have spent with him leads me to believe he is a good man. I read your post as mentioned below and thought "how can you know" that the perpetrators where Eastern European. With the evidence you put forward you could not KNOW and I could quite easily consider it a racist remark as Dave has done.

They may well have been Eastern European, equally they may have come from Lancashire. Without specific knowledge your statement was at best ill judged and at worst........................

I realise you are upset at the accusation and would suppose from your vehement denials that you are not racist but given the evidence I don't KNOW

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 12:28 PM

well i did know they were eastern european, but i can't remember why i knew. they didn't come from Lancashire.

do you remember how you knew that you made an evaluation of everything. something in this case that happened in the twinkling of an eye - several years before. however, iam quite positive of what was my experience was. i am not being dishonest or prejudiced.

there was no malevolence in my comments. just a simple account of something that happened to me. there was no racism in my heart.

there is however an extraordinary amount of self righteousness in the way Dave has done this. you can see his insistence that he is right about an incident he wasn't there at. something that is of no account to him.

all i can say is, his attitude is here for all to see. when you're with a friend like this, watch your back.

at stake is the fact that i don't like being characterised as someone who goes through the world making racist comments. Dave thinks i should let it drop and accept his judgement about myself - made in public - not going to!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 12:43 PM

One of my best mates since grammar school is definitely not racist.
Far from it, he goes out of his way to forge links with overseas musicians and artists;
and works actively to look after the needs of refugees
and make all feel welcome.
He is an internationalist socialist.

But from his careless casual language amongst old pals
he could be overheard and misconstrued as a bit of a old fashioned racist
[and homophobe - I'm fairly sure he's not really that either..].

Stupid language lapsed into for transgressive old schoolboy humour effect after too many pints.....???

Like me he is a child of the early 60s with deep ingrained cultural influences
from dodgy 60s and 70s TV comedy and sitcoms.
But he has stayed most of his life in a small backwater W. Country town.

Technically, some of his words are, by higher educated modern standards, 'racist'
and he is daft not to have stopped using them outside his own house and closest circle of old mates...

Though, where he lives, works, and drinks,
he is surrounded day to day by real bonehead ignorant Daily Mail readership racism......