Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 12:21 PM

Over the past three years Liz and I have been responsible for the Ballad sessions at Whitby Folk Week. The daily event grew rapidly into a 'sell-out' over this period and we averaged around twenty ballads per session. Generally the singing was of the highest standard,indeed, as many of you will attest, I was in the enviable position of being able to call on 'floor singers' to sing us their offerings, who included the likes of Ray Fisher, Will Noble, Cath Tyler, Rachel Unthank and many others who would have been booked guests elsewhere. The sessions, under our tenure, invited anyone to sing and the evidence was that there are a great number of people out there working hard on presenting these wonderful songs. Now, as to ballads being boring, how long is your attention span? The longest performance I noted was Cuthbert Noble singing Mike Waterson's version of 'Tam Lin'. At 6'.30" in length, unhurried and beautifully delivered. Overall, the average ballad, assuming we're using the Chil canon as a guideline, only takes 5 to 6 minutes to do justice. Sadly the Whitby Ballad Session is returning to its old concert-style format next year despite our protestations. There is a great demand for such events and yet they tend to be ignored or marginalised by festival organisers.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:35 PM

That reminds of of one of the best ballad stories I have ever heard.

A friend once recounted the story of an interview with a pub or restaurant owner to whom she had been recommended as a 'folk singer'. (She knew quite a variety of 'folk' songs.)

So the guy was explaining that he often had an 'act' do about a 45 minute set during the evening, and asked if she could handle that.

"Oh, I believe so", she replied, "Would you like one song - or more than one?"

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:00 PM

The information from Anne Neilson about Jeannie Robertson's tunes for Mattie Groves is interesting -- but confusing. I've only heard the one that Bill D posted a clip of, which I have on the CD issued by Rounder as part of the Alan Lomax Collection. That is certainly not the same as Bronson's no. 15, from Jean Ritchie.

> Obviously it was sung as a Scottish version

The words of Jeannie's version are very similar to some of the American versions, and not like any of the Scots versions in Child.

GUEST,The Folk E said
> You can really wear yourself out dancing to those real long folk ballads.

That prompts me to recall something from my late friend Edgar Ashton. He spent part of his teens in the Faroes (where his mother came from) and where they have kept the old kind of ballad that is danced (hence the name) and lasts half the night. One particular ballad "belonged" to his family, but he told me that you had to know the whole thing word-perfect (which he didn't) before you were allowed to lead it.

Dick mentioned Gordon Hall's marathon versions, disparagingly. I find them of interest as performances, and not boring, but I haven't yet made up my mind what I think of them as storytelling. Certainly the main elements of the stories can be told much more concisely, but would that be better? Come to that, Jeannie Robertson took a lot longer than some singers would for any given ballad, by singing very slowly.

I have always wanted to learn and sing Clerk Saunders. The reason I have not done so is my failure to decide between two approaches: one similar to June Tabor's, taking it at a fairly fast pace, and the other similar to (for example) Jean Redpath's, where the tragedy unfolds slowly and inexorably. Some singers keep the length down by being selective about which verses to include, leaving out some of those where the brothers take turns to express their points of view, and/or Part 2, otherwise known as Sweet Willam's Ghost, Child 77. I see all of that material as enhancing the story and therefore worthy of inclusion, but have been wary of the combination of slow pace and numerous verses. Some of the postings above provide encouragement not to worry about the overall length.

Richard

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:12 PM

==Jeannie Robertson took a lot longer than some singers would for any given ballad, by singing very slowly.==

I have to confess that for this reason I never admired her as a singer [nor her highly regarded English equivalent Phoebe Smith either], finding her approach affectedly mannered. I suspect that at some stage she had been 'got at' by that Hamish Henderson, London-born professional Scotsman, who was the officious sort of collector, to my mind, who could never leave well alone; and could never stand criticism or argument either, but would literally resort to shouts and threats and blows — I saw it more than once. But I expect I shall be shot down in flames for saying so.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:31 PM

"...shot down in flames for saying so."

For saying that Jeannie sang too slowly? Or that Hamish was a officious dolt? *grin*

The 2nd may not be subject to much debate, but the first is of course a matter of taste.

I really prefer too slow over too fast... our late friend (in eastern USA) and singer of many types of song, Helen Schneyer, sang most ballads to MY taste, which was 'paced' and full of feeling. Her version on "Sheath & Knife" was a classic.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Aeola
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:53 PM

Ballads can be very dirgish or very intereseting it all depends on delivery.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:06 PM

In reply to Richard, when I said I'd been told about Jeannie singing Jean Ritchie's tune, there is probably no-one left who could confirm this as Jeannie, her daughter Lizzie, Hamish Henderson (who 'discovered' Jeannie) and Norman Buchan are now all dead. However, when the holiday period is over I will check with a good friend and fellow ballad singer Andy Hunter, who was 'adopted' into Jeannie's family when a student at university in Aberdeen and who learned many songs from her. Indeed, Andy is the source of the following quote from James Porter's book (p77)

"She had two tunes for 'Little Matty Groves' -- a big one and a short, thumpy one. Once at a festival when someone requested her to sing 'Matty' at the opening of the programme before she was warmed up, she said to us under her breath, "Dammit, I'll no' start off with my big tune first an' be here five minutes longer!" So she sang the short one first. That's how she built up a programme to a climax. The big guns came last when she was all warmed up and the audience completely with her, expectant."

Further, when I said that it was sung as a Scottish version I was possibly not expressing myself clearly -- what I meant was that no-one in the audience would have imagined it as anything other than of Scottish origin as it was sung with such commitment.

Finally, Richard also said that Jeannie sang ballads slowly, but you might be interested to know that there was a study (I think by Ailie Munro, author of "The Folk Music Revival in Scotland") of various recordings of Jeannie over a long period, where she sang the same ballads. And as she got older, she sang them slower, possibly because of age but more likely because she had invested them with such importance as a result of scholarly interest and audience response.

Absolutely last word -- I was once in a folk club audience in Glasgow when Jeannie was the guest. She was singing a ballad (might have been 'The Gypsy Laddie') and as she sang, she engaged individual members of the audience and delivered two or three verses directly to them so compellingly that it was impossible to break eye contact -- a magical experience!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 04:08 PM

== our late friend (in eastern USA) and singer of many types of song, Helen Schneyer,==

"Late friend", Bill?. Do I gather from this that Helen is dead? I hadn't heard, and am most grieved. I didn't know her well, but met her briefly on a visit to Md/DC in 1971, to convey greetings from Peter Bellamy who of course knew her well, and found her a most charming and friendly person. How long has she been dead?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 04:38 PM

My thanks to Anne for further enlightenment.

> Further, when I said that it was sung as a Scottish version I was possibly not expressing myself clearly -- what I meant was that no-one in the audience would have imagined it as anything other than of Scottish origin as it was sung with such commitment. <

I agree about Jeannie's commitment, in that and any other ballad. Her set of words is very close to many American versions, but she certainly gave it a Scots character.

I suspect what happened was that Jeannie took an American set of words (from Jean Ritchie or someone else) and that her two tunes were the one from Jean and one that she had from a Scots source, the latter being presumably the one that's on the recording. If she did marry a set of words from one place to a tune from another, she was neither the first nor the last to do so, and well qualified to pick good ones.

If Andy Hunter (or anyone else) has further light to shed I shall be interested to see it.

Richard

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 04:43 PM

Just taking a ten minute break from Xmas - jolly nice to see this thread still busy and interesting.
Cheers for all feedback so far & Happy Xmas all :)

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST,Colleen Cleveland
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:24 PM

How funny to go looking for song lyrics & fall onto this thread. A good friend of mine once told me that you don't pick the songs, the songs pick you. I am a fifth generation ballad singer & grew up in a household where long story songs were the norm. I do some performing & will agree that you do have to pick & choose the song for the audience, but there are people out there that will sit & listen to the big old ballads & love them. I think the singer has to see the song & believe in it before he/she can make an audience become involved in the song. I've seen my grandmother break into tears while singing "The Great Milwaukee Fire", not only because of the emotional content of the song, but also because it was the last song she learned from her brother before his death. Usually there were tears in the audience too. I will sing these ballads for just myself, in the car or at work (when I think no one else is there.)There is something about these stories that draws you into them, but I have also sung them for audiences who seem to hang on each line waiting to find out what happens. Hooray for all the singers & listeners who keep this style alive

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:41 AM

"For saying that Jeannie sang too slowly"
It has been claimed that Jeannie slowed down her songs after collectors/folk club audiences praised to the skies her "magnificent, slow dignified way of singing". The early recordings would back that up.
"I really prefer too slow over too fast"
Both are equally a problem if you approach them in such generalised terms. Surely the contents of the ballad should indicate the speed.
One of the side effects of being over-awed by the ballads is that some singers treat them all like epics, which they are not.
A couple of years ago I unwisely got into an argument with somebody whose work I respect very much, when he was taking a singing class.
The message he appeared to be passing on was that all ballads should be taken slowly His example was a two verse fragment, full of motion and action. The result IMO was a caricature.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 12:10 PM

I'm totally with Jim on this one. If you set the tempo according to the narrative it must be right? If you impose a tempo that's not sympathetic to what the words are saying then you don't understand the song surely? The worst thing in the world of performance art is, in my opinion, those performers who use a stylistic approach which is entirely independent of the material being performed. Their motivation is almost always self-agrandisment.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 02:30 PM

Suibhne O'Piobaireachd wrote:

"This is a myth that's cropped up a few times here; but as both a storyteller & a ballad singer I'd say that storytelling is something very different indeed...

with ballads the words are already there... the finely honed verse really needs no more from the performer other than to let it through."

I feel that statements to the effect the singer is a mere vessel for the ballad ("you don't sing the ballad; the ballad sings you") are themselves mystical mythologising. The singer is making decisions all the way along: whether to raise or lower the volume, to harden or soften the timbre, to lengthen a pause or to march briskly onward, to slide or to hit the note dead-on, to ornament in a particular place, and so on. It's possible that, if the singer really 'gets lost in' the telling of a ballad, some of those decisions may become unconscious, but many of them are willed - unless you are singing in the most deadpan monotone (and it's another myth that deadpan is the 'correct' or 'traditional' way to sing ballads).

Listen again to Phil Tanner's 'Henry Martin'. His performance has many of the qualities of a storyteller. He changes his timbre, rolls his R's, gives certain words sonorous gravitas (when he sings "down to the bottom she goes" you can tell from the way he delivers the single word 'bottom' that she's not coming up again!) and uses ornaments sparingly but flamboyantly on certain key passages of narrative. Listen to the conspiratorial tones, the throwaway asides, the half-spoken passages and the barely-suppressed guffaws of Sam Larner's 'Butter and Cheese and All' to hear great storytelling in song (albeit not a Child Ballad). And cast your mind back to Peter Bellamy's performances - eyes rolled, lips curled, hands gesturing, attitudes struck - to find an example of the storyteller's physicality in a singer. The two arts are not the same (clearly the storyteller has much more leeway with the words), but they have plenty in common.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 02:30 PM

"Their motivation is almost always self-agrandisment."
I agree with most of what you say Paul, but I think it's slightly more complicated than that.
A parallel - here in Ireland there has been a surge of interest in Irish language 'Sean Nós' (old style) songs.
The recorded repertoire from the Tradition covers the whole gamut of styles and and approaches, yet the current singers take them very slow and highly ornamented to a stunning level of ability.
Somewhere along the way it seems to have been decided that this is 'sean nós' style; very beautiful to listen to, but after a few songs all with this delivery it's rather like wading through a field of treacle. Style rather than content.
In the same way I think there is a tendency to lean on a mythical ballad 'style'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: olddude
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 02:42 PM

I love the big ballots, I could listen to an Art Thieme ballad or one from pretty much most of the people here on the Cat ... all amazing artists. Lots of discussions on presentation, likewise I love the stories. Could listen to the Captain until I died and never get tired of them. The only problem I see is the venue, if it is a folk club awesome, but an open mike my thinking is this. If you are limited to a half hour (that is what they do here) Then some of the audience will hate a long ballad, others will love it, but if you can do 5 songs everyone will come away with something they like ... Likewise as I mentioned before, if it is not a coffee house or folk club, most won't like it ... all depends on the venue I think and the make up of the audience

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: olddude
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 02:46 PM

by the way there is only 1 open mike here in my town and it is by invite only ... Go figure huh, what is open about that, I still do them cause they ask but I wish they really were open mikes. they give each musician a half hour ...

they should call them that I think ... but I am thread drifting sorry

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: olddude
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 02:48 PM

meant to say should not call them that ... they are not open I think
sorry again

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: DebC
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 03:03 PM

Olddude-where is the Open Mike of which you speak?

Debra

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Richard Hardaker
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 03:21 PM

In these days of short attention spans and instant gratification, those prepared to engage with the big ballads as performers and audience are perhaps the people inclined to take a longer viewpoint; it is 40 years since I first stood up and sang in a folk club, 10-15 years since I started regularly singing ballads, and only now do I feel I am getting to grips with them, and I still have a lot to learn
re. presentation.
It occurred to me that my other diversions are similar long term projects, 30+ years building a model railway and 26 years climbing the Munros.(Scottish mountains over 3000 feet) Does this mirror anyone else's experience or am I in anorak territory?
Richard Hardaker

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM

I started singing folk songs when I was around twenty-one or twenty-two. I'm seventy-eight now, and I think I'm just starting to get the hang of it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:27 PM

"decisions all the way along: whether to raise or lower the volume, to harden or soften the timbre, to lengthen a pause or to march briskly onward, to slide or to hit the note dead-on, to ornament in a particular place, and so on. [...] (and it's another myth that deadpan is the 'correct' or 'traditional' way to sing ballads)."

Thanks for this post BP - I was in fact getting the decided impression that there was a consensus about the 'correct' way to sing ballads - and that the only right way was to sing them is somehow pure and untainted by human interference.

I'd get bored stiff doing that myself I'm afraid, and even in the last few days dabbling, found it impossible to conform to a rigid tempo and absence of any vocal 'colouration' (and I don't mean turning it panto!).

Actually after following this thread and coming to the above conclusion, I'd already decided not to try to conform to the supposed 'correct' way, and to follow my intuition instead. So it's helpful to hear my own feelings reflected in your comments here.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:20 PM

Great post from Brian, clarifying many things. As far as I'm concerned, it's more that the singer is at the service of the story -- rather than that the singer is the vessel for the ballad. This allows for all the artistic discretion that Brian describes -- pace, decoration, volume, tone etc.
But I would rather this were not an 'artistic' effect, which is not what Brian is describing. There is really no way to sing ballads other than by knowing them (which implies some sort of apprenticeship).
However, I have to confess that the first ballads I sang - in the late 1950's - were only the start of a learning experience. Before 1960 I was singing 'The Twa Corbies', 'The Baron of Brackley', 'Sir Patrick Spens', 'Son David' and 'The Great Silkie' -- but I freely acknowledge that this is an ongoing process, and that my interpretation of these (and ballads later acquired) is in permanent flux. Interpretation varies depending on the physical circumstance, the audience's requirements/expectations, and my own mood at the time.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: IvanB
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:29 PM

MtheGM, since Bill hasn't happened along to answer your question, yes, Helen Schneyer sadly died in 2005.

The MC thread about her death is here: thread.cfm?threadid=82987&messages=82

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:37 PM

The secret is to enjoy,never sing a song /Ballad,that you do not like,
for that reason I dont expect Jim Carroll to sing Thomas The Rhymer,and I will not be singing Lord Randall,but there are plenty of others.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:43 PM

IvanB - many thanks for answer to my question about Helen.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:49 PM

ahhh...sorry to have missed replying about Helen..(holidays and 'other threads'.) But thanks to IvanB....

I had the great pleasure of knowing Helen and hearing her often for many years. She was as generous and friendly as she was a great singer. It was thru Helen that I met Ewan & Peggy.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:28 PM

"As far as I'm concerned, it's more that the singer is at the service of the story -- rather than that the singer is the vessel for the ballad"

Yes, Anne, that's just what I feel. Rest of your post is good, too - we all keep learning or else we're dead (and Richard H is with us too).

Right, Crow Sister, 'expression' doesn't have to be 'panto'. Get out and do it.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 09:31 AM

Have always found a good rule of thumb when tackling ballads is to listen to how the source singers did it; not to copy them, but to listen to how they made them work for themselves.
I would recommend a peep at some of the versions recorded in Ireland over the last forty years; there have been over 50 Child ballads recovered there (can provide a list if anybody's interested), many from the Travellers, thanks to their love of a good story.
The style of singing is very varied; John Reilly's 'stream of conciousness' approach, the simple storyteller's technique used by many of the Travellers, the highly ornament approach used by 'Little' Bill Cassidy, all individual, and all important to the understanding of the genre. If you can, listen to Martin MacDonough's beautiful rendition of Lady Margaret (Young Hunting); one of the most breathtaking renditions of a ballad I've ever heard.
Last year Tom Munnelly's 'Songs of the Irish Travellers' was re-issued, which includes Lady Margaret and Lamkin, and sometime next year the Goilín Club in Dublin is re-releasing Tom's and Hugh Shields 'Early Ballads in Ireland'; a double CDs worth from the North and the Republic - magic!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Smedley
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 10:38 AM

Can I just say that this is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read on Mudcat ? Very informative about both songs and singing and has given me lots of names & performancs to seek out. Keep it going !

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:35 PM

One of the most fascinating aspects of talking to the older singers was the number of times they described their getting pictures of the characters and locations of the songs, particularly the ballads. One Traveller compared it to sitting in the cinema.
Another, a blind Travelling woman with a fair number of big ballads, became so moved that she occasionally broke down, describing the songs as 'too heavy'. Despite being blind from birth, she gave us full descriptions of the characters in her ballads, what they were wearing, where the action too place, colours....
I came across this recently from the American ballad singer, Texas Gladden:

Texas Gladden spoke of having an image in her mind for every part of these old stories. "I have a perfect mental picture of every song I sing. I have a perfect picture of every person I learned it from, very few people I don't remember. When I sing a song, a person pops up, and it's a very beautiful story. I can see Mary Hamilton, I can see where the old Queen came down to the kitchen, can see them all gathered around, and I can hear her tell Mary Hamilton to get ready. I can see the whole story, I can see them as they pass through the gate, I can see the ladies looking over their casements, I can see her as she goes up the Parliament steps, and I can see her when she goes to the gallows. I can hear her last words, and I can see all just the most beautiful picture."

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: DebC
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:46 PM

Thanks for this Jim. This is what I mean when I say I see the movie when I am singing ballads.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 03:58 AM

I find that the ballad singers I most appreciated (and thus was modelled by) in my youth are not those I listen to now, and vice versa.

For example, pace Bill D., I hear less than I did in Helen Schneyer's voice than I did, much less than I did in Martin Carthy, but more in John Jacob Niles - a total inversion over the years (though I have to say that singing with Helen was a glorious experience!)

Do other singers share this with me?

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 04:35 AM

I would be interested in finding out something that has fascinateed me since I first became interested in folk song - particularly ballads. How do non-believers deal with superntural songs?
While in the Critics Group, one of the most successful aspects of their work was in the singer relating the songs to experiences in their lives in order to make them relevant (like Stanislavski did with acting - Emotion Memory, Application of the Idea of If). It was not always easy to apply, but when it worked - wow, did it work! It left you with a reason to keep some of the songs you sang most frequently in your repertoire forever.
We interviewed fellow disbeliever MacColl on this one time, and I started to put together a talk based on the idea for our local history society (Things That Go Bump In The Ballads), but never got round to finishing it.
I wonder how other people tackle it; suspension of belief, simple storytelling - personally, have never found either of these enough to keep ballads alive for more than half a dozen singings.
Thanks,
Jim Carroll
PS The same applies to ballads where you find it difficult to sympathise with or relate to the characters; we had a fascinating discussion with MacColl on Edom O' Gordon around this.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 04:46 AM

Jim - the word is 'empathy'. You have to think yourself into the mindset of someone whose views, tho different from your own, are worthy of respect. I found this essential once when asked to review for ED&S the religious poems of Sydney Carter, who wrote Lord·Of·The·Dance among many others. I knew him slightly, and he thanked me for the review, saying that I obviously had respect for his views tho I equally clearly did not share them. I think that such an approach, related to the beliefs and superstitions of the ballads, and the characters of their protagonists, is what you are feeling towards with your questions in your last, valuable, post.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 05:31 AM

How do non-believers deal with superntural songs?

It's a different aspect of the supernatural, one that is generated simply by our instinctive capacity to FEAR such things regardless of whatever logical choices we might make with regard to belief otherwise. I think it's possible to believe in ghosts without believing in God. The experience of ghosts is quite corporeal, unlike the experience of God. Most everyone I know (myself included) has had an experience of the supernatural, and been suitably flegged by it, but who has direct experience of God?

One might argue that in such ballads as Child #32 (a personal favourite) we are dealing with an almost parodic grand-guignol scenario rounded off by a neat little erotic twist, which in real life might be quite the reverse. The well-travelled mythic morphology of King Orfeo is enchanting on any level, as with The Wife of Usher's Well (for my new fiddle version see HERE). The supernatural element notwithstanding both of these are very soapy in terms of their narrative tensions - I think people complain about the unrelenting bleakness of East Enders in the same way they complain about the unrelenting bleakness of ballad narratives which are real enough in terms of human experience even if they do involve the supernatural. As is emerging in this thread, I'd agree that a capacity to be moved emotionally by ballads is pretty crucial to the singing of them.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 07:22 AM

I really started listening to traditional music after my mother died; in the state I was in, the music I'd been listening to before mostly sounded raucous, disturbing, trivial and fake. The first time I heard Sheath and Knife, I played it three or four times in a row; the first few times I tried to sing it, I couldn't finish it for crying. The same happened a while later when I heard the Bonny Hind.

I've got no experience of murder, suicide or incest, I hasten to add, but there's something about the predicament of the young man at the end of both songs which really digs deep - he's lost someone incredibly precious to him, he'll never see her again, he can't communicate to anybody else just how precious she was, and there's nothing he can do about it. None of us (I hope!) can identify with the specifics of the story, but most of us* have probably been in that situation. And that's what powers the ballad.

*At least, most of those of us who have been around a while. I wonder sometimes if there's an elective affinity between folksong and middle age. Someone pointed to this Guardian article a while back - the story of how the writer got up and sang her first ballad. She did Gilderoy, and she was really nervous about singing the bit about them having sex. I thought that was a bit of a handicap for singing anything in the English tradition, but also that that was such a young person's worry - once you hit middle age you just know that people (including you) have sex, people have children and people die, and if you're singing to 40-somethings you know that they know too. In a very real sense, we are all the Wife of Bath.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 11:10 AM

Jon Bartlett--

" I hear less than I did in Helen Schneyer's voice than I did,...

What sort of 'less'? You mentioned 'pace', but seem to refer to general content. When I listen to the last album of Helen, I know that her voice was no longer what it was when I heard her in person in the late 70s & early 80s, and the last few times I heard her 'live', it was the same. Still, it felt to me like she never lost the intensity of the song.

Martin Carthy, I have only heard 'live' twice, so I can't judge easily, but he certainly seemed to give a strong performance each time.

John Jacob Niles? ummmm.. well, I can barely stand to listen to his theatrical presentations. I suppose it is just a matter of taste.

(Come back to the Getaway, and we'll hash it over at length! ☺)

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Smedley
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 11:16 AM

Pip, your nteresting observation about folksong & middle age echoes a shrewd comment once made by Eliza Carthy (no less).

She said (and I paraphrase, roughly, from memory): "People think they don't like folk music, but we get them in the end, as everyone turns 40".

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: jennyr
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 04:27 PM

Thanks for this thread - I've delayed replying because I wanted to read it to the end first and there's a lot of content there to keep me thinking!

To add my two penn'orth, though (which seems to be quite long, sorry): I've fairly recently started to have a go at singing ballads (because I love listening to them so much), and I'm working up to the 'big ones' fairly gradually by starting with shorter ballads (7 or 8 verses) or shorter versions of longer ones. I tend to look at as many versions as I can find first and put together 'my' composite version. Then I go and sing it in the shower, while I'm washing up, in my head when I'm falling asleep, in the car... for at least a couple of weeks before I even think about singing it in public.

I'm interested in the comments above about 'seeing a film' while you're singing. I tried to do that, and I find that it actually makes my performance considerably less engaging because it breaks my connection with the audience. What I try to do now is to watch the 'film' a few times while I'm learning the ballad, and then perform it as if I'm telling my friends about this great film I saw. I was also advised at one point to fill in all the peripheral detail in my mind - how old are the characters? what do they look like? what are their backgrounds? why are then doing this? I don't necessarily go through the whole process every time, but I do if I'm having any difficulty at all engaging with the story or any characters in it.

In terms of the melody, I don't tend to do much in the way of deliberate ornamentation but I think I do vary the tune quite a lot - I find it keeps the interest level up, unless you're specifically going for the soporific effect in one particular ballad. Another piece of advice I've been given is to leave the tune alone for a bit and speak the words as if you were having a conversation, and I tend to find this leads to both a more convincing delivery and some interesting rhythmic and melodic variations.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: jennyr
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 04:37 PM

Re Jim's question about the supernatural: I've been thinking a lot recently about how to handle songs containing ideas which I'm not wholly comfortable with, and I've found a three-part solution which seems to work for me most of the time.

Firstly, I quite often encounter a 'sticking point' in an otherwise perfectly good ballad, and have in the past been guilty of skating over one verse or episode so that I could get on to the next bit. The more I looked at these points though, the more I realised that maybe it was the strength of emotion in those particular lines that I'd been uncomfortable with. There's at least one great thread on here about how to cope with songs that make you cry, so suffice it to say that many of these are now, I think, the most powerful moments in my performance of those songs.

Second, as someone said above, empathy with the characters and with the makers of the song. This is where I find a bit of 'back story' helps. As an example, I learned the song 'The Rigs of Rye' last year but have been reluctant to perform it because I couldn't muster any sympathy for the male character. The last time I did peform it, someone came up to me afterwards and supplied me with an extra verse I'd never heard before, including the line 'this lad, barely 19 years old' - which somehow transformed the whole thing for me, and now it works.

Lastly, and most importantly for me, is to find the 'human truth' in whatever you're singing. My day job is all about finding true meaning in symbols and fantasy, and I find that applies here too. So when I sing 'The Unquiet Grave', it doesn't matter that I don't believe in ghosts, what matters is that I have some understanding of love and loss and pain and despair and...

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 05:46 PM

I sing about the supernatural. I also sing gospel, and some hymns and spirituals. I believe in the music.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 11:36 PM

I offered my opinion right at the top, but I just read a quote from George Jessel which reminded me of it.

'If you haven't struck oil in the first three minutes, stop boring!'

Most audiences have the attention span of a goldfish, even in folkclubs. Singarounds are different.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:09 AM

"Most audiences have the attention span of a goldfish, even in folkclubs. Singarounds are different."
Is this true or is it a case of ""I" find them boring because "I" have the attention span of a goldfish". Does Gurney have the right to decide that everybody around him/her has a short attention span. Or is it that he/she just doesn't like ballads - or maybe has only heard bad singing of them - bad singing can be boring whether the songs are long or short, ballads or not.
If a snigger snogwriter bores me to tears with his serenades to the fluff in his navel (as they often do) and I told him to stop singing them because they are boring, would he be jusitified in accusing me of being a member of 'The Folk Police'?
Ballads are, as far as I'm concerned, the high watermark of the folk-song tradition - if you don't like them I can see no reason why you can claim to like folk-song. I've heard folk songs that are longer than most ballads - Father Tom O'Neill, True Lover's Discussion, Van Dieman's Land (some versions) many of the Irish language Sean Nós songs (in a language I don't understand), yet I can listen to them without getting bored.
I sat down last night and watched an hour and a half play (part 2 tonight, another hour-and-a-half - can't wait); some time today I will read a few of chapters of a book for about an hour. I might go to the cinema tomorrow - another two hours of sitting and concentrating. Why can I do these things without becoming bored - or is 'attention span' just confined to ballads.
Personally, if somebody included me as a member of a folk club audience of having the attention span of a goldfish, I'd be pretty pissed off.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 07:13 AM

"Most audiences have the attention span of a goldfish, even in folkclubs."

Simply not true. You can get better attention for a long ballad than for any other kind of piece, given a decent performance and the right circumstances. It's a magic moment when an audience 'locks in', and is hanging on every word.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Smedley
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 07:39 AM

I agree Brian, but the key word in your last sentence is 'when', since it doesn't exactly always happen!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:37 AM

I agree with Jim Carroll and Brian Peters. How can someone call themselves a folk music enthusiast and not appreciate the ballads - at least some of them? Yes, certain conditions are necessary - most important is that it be a listening room. You would have a hard time getting a ballad across in an environment where there are a lot of distractions.   And the singer has to know his/her stuff - that includes the words, melody, timing, enunciation, and all that. It's so important that the words be clearly and easily heard, so voice projection is vital. Yes I'll admit that a long ballad sung badly (and the major problems I've seen in this respect is singing too softly, no voice projection, sloppy diction, no expression (dronelike quality), singing while looking down at the floor or (worse) the words...)IS boring and excruciating. That same ballad done by a skilled singer is sublime, and the height of a "folk music" experience.

I can't wait to hear Brian Peters when he entrances our audience in Richmond!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 02:59 PM

"I can't wait to hear Brian Peters when he entrances our audience in Richmond!"

Hmm - all my pontificating on this thread has clearly ratcheted up the pressure!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:25 PM

Ah Brian, you can work up that dangling moment by making people wait all weekend for the song...

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:37 PM

LOL don't worry Brian there will be at least one ballad enthusiast in the audience - me!