'Mountain Modal Tuning'?

Subject: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 01:29 AM

What is it? What keys would usually employ it?

How do you do it with autoharp?

What are some songs done in that mode?

What mode would it be then, you know-- by the usual mode names?

Would songs using this always be minor or major, or could they be either? Why?

Typical chord progressions?

Any tricks to the harmonies that would work-- would they be within the modal scale, or some other wacko approach?

Any way to recognize these in dots-- would it be a regular key signature then certain dots flatted or sharped?

Anything else related to this, or other common modes found in bluegrass gospel????

I need to know. HERE'S WHY.

Help! And thanks. I promise to use any secrets learned only to bring about world peace! (Peace IRL, not Mudcat peace. I dunno how to make that at all.)

~Susan

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 01:51 AM

I have heard this term used with the banjo, but do not know the notes the banjo strings require. I am not sure if it is the same as mountain minor which also is used in the Ozarks on the banjo. Surely someone on Mudcat will have that information. It is an open tuning with a distinct sound. The modal tuning on an autoharp might be a little tricky. Drew Smith, who has some autoharp instruction books and tapes available is able to achieve a modal sound on the autoharp. He is an excetional player with a real fondness for American folk tunes and songs. Evo Bluestein is another autoharp player who uses a chromatic harp a lot and can achieve some interesting sounds with chord bars.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Suffet
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 07:27 AM

Greetings:

I have generally heard the term "mountain modal" apply to the 5-string banjo tuned (5th to 1st) g-d-g-c-d. Note that the only difference between this tuning and standard G major tuning is that the 2nd string is raised half a step to c. You can likewise think of it as G minor tuning with the 2nd string raised a whole step to c.

You then play using g as the tonal root. Since the chord lacks the third note in the scale, it is undefined as to whether it is a G major or G minor using common designations for modes, thus it is a "modal" tuning. However, the addition of the c note, the fourth, gives the chord its distinctive "mountain" sound.

By stopping the 2nd string on the 2nd fret [o-o-o-2-o] you make a chord that comprises only g's and d's, and thus can be used as a tonic in either G major or G minor, but which lacks the "mountain" sound. Other useful chords are as follows:

[o-3-o-o-o] G mountain modal 7th: adds an f note to the bass.

[o-3-2-o-3] F major with a high g drone: a typical mountain modal chord.

[o-o-2-2-o] D modal with a high g drone: can be used whenever a D major or D minor is required.

[o-o-2-o-o] D modal 7th: as above but with a c note added.

[o-2-2-1-2] A7: our old friend!

[o-2-2-o-2] Am7: our old friend's minor cousin!

Some tunes to try: Shady Grove, Pretty Polly, Lady Margaret, Shalom Chavarim.

That should get you started.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 08:58 AM

Arkie, thanks, I will look for them... I should say also I play my autoharp strictly chordally, not melody pickin'. Though it is the singing that will be impacted ultimately as I would actually rather sing than play when it comes to this music. (I can sing the harmonies without even thinking-- so my brain and my ear know something-- I just can't get it all solved for melody or solo AH accompaniment!) If I could be in the middle of an old timey or bluegrass band just singing backups, that would do it for me!

Steve... I dunno what you mean since I am not a banjo player, but I will turn Hardi loose on that so he can play it for me to hear.

VERY HELPFUL.

Keep 'em coming, folks.

~S~

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: old man winter
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 09:11 AM

The tuning is also called "sawmill" by banjo players which is odd considering fiddle players call AEAE "sawmill". Something else to note is that banjo players sometimes alter this tuning by tuning the 5th string down to an F which sounds pretty neat.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 10:12 AM

I agree with everything Suffet says but would add that this tuning is also convenient for 5-string banjo players who feel compelled to chase fiddle tunes in major as well as minor keys. I generally capo up to A (2 frets) enabling me to play A-minor tunes such as Cold Frosty Morning, Kitchen Girl and Home with the Girls in the Morning. But I can also chase D-major tunes with modified C-chords (Over the Waterfall, Whiskey before Breakfast, Spotted Pony), chase G-major tunes with modified F-chords (Golden Sleepers/Colored Aristocracy), or retune easily to A-Major for Little Beggarman and the other miccaledian(?) tunes. This strategy generally saves 5th strings from breaking as well. Of course, when fiddles go into other keys such as C-major, you're still left all standing.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 10:31 AM

Well, Cold Frosty Morn, Kitchen Girl, and Home With the Girls are all Mixolydian (the flatted 7th, remember?)

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Bedubya
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 11:05 AM

Am I tripping, or is this banjo tuning analogous to DADGAD guitar tuning? DADGAD is really nothing but Open D with the Major Third (F#) raised a half-step, right? As Suffet says, this banjo tuning is Open G with the second string, (B - the Major Third) raised a half step.

Quick, someone give me a cyber-pat-on-the-back for figuring that one out or shoot me down if I'm wrong.

Bruce

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 11:18 AM

Sorcha, really? I though only G-major/F-major types of tunes were Mixolydian. I know you're a fiddler, but sometimes we banjo players can be misled. Maybe that frog in the road was not a bird...

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Margo
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 11:24 AM

Yes, as Suffet mentioned, I play "Little Sadie" in the g-d-g-c-d tuning on the five string banjo, clawhammer style. That's the only song I've learned in that tuning so far, I'm sure there are more. Margo

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 11:24 AM

Charlie, Mixo is a scale type, not a key. Modes can start on any note. We play Cold Frosty, Kitchen Girl, Old Joe Clark in A Mixo, Home with The Girls in D Mixo. I have no clue about the relationship of banjo/guitar tunings to modes......my guitar player always uses Standard tuning, and then chord shapes to fit the scale.......somewhere there is a thread called Modes for Mudcatters. (I think that is the title. Great piece of work, and explains it very well)

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 11:29 AM

You are right, Bruce. Rick Fielding and I had a hilarious 10 minutes where we (well, he) worked out on the guitar Doc Watson's "East Virginia", and at the end of it out popped DADGAD.

yours, Peter

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 11:33 AM

Sorcha, I know modes can start on any note but I thought the particular chord patterns also defined a mode. Hence, G-major/F-major or C-major/D-major were combinations found only in Mixolydian. Well, I may have to learn something new. This is tough for us banjo players.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 11:38 AM

Now we're into "Traditional" mode keys, vs. modern mode key/scale patterns..........Yes, traditionally, each mode was only in one key, but not anymore....

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Suffet
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 02:04 PM

Hey Margo, it's time to learn your second tune in that lovely G mountain modal tuning [g-d-g-c-d]. It's going to be Shady Grove, and your clawhammer style is just perfect. Or else you can try double thumbing with both the 5th and 1st strings used as drones. In other words, use your thumb to pick out the melody on the 4th, 3rd, and 2nd stribgs only, keeping the 1st as well as the 5th string open at all times. The index finger alone or index and middle fingers can work out complex arpeggios on off-beats, and the thum plucks the 5th string when not picking the melody.

Here is a bare bones transcription for the thumb-melody notes only. Notation is word of lyrics followed by [string/fret]. o = open.

Sha-[3/o]-dy[3/o] Grove[3/o] my[3/2] li'l[3/o] love[4/3]
Sha-[3/o]-dy[3/o] Grove[3/2] my[2/o] dear[2/2]
Sha-[2/5]-dy[2/5] Grove[2/2] my[2/o] li'l[3/2] love[4/3]
Gone[3/2] to[3/2] Sha-[2/o]-dy[3/2] Grove[3/o]


It's up to you to work out the rhythm and to embelish the tune with pick-offs, hammer-ons, slides, chokes, etc.


I don't do any chording, but if you wish you can try using an F major with added d and g drones [o-3-2-o-o] for one measure at the end of the first line [4/3 note] and again from the end of the third line [4/3 note] at which time you stay on that F chord until going back to the G at the end of the line [3/o note].


Best of luck.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: GUEST,dusty m
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 02:22 PM

so many mountains, so few strings.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 02:28 PM

Guys... guys... hey... what about the singers...

Just kidding. Party on!

~S~

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Bedubya
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 03:06 PM

Singers? Don't know. Never tried playing Kitchen Girl on a sewing machine. How would you tune it? Anyway, I have a Bernina.

*BSEG*

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 03:20 PM

Phlblbpblbpblbpblbpooooi!

*G*

Really buttonholed me with that one.

~S~

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Bedubya
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 01:18 PM

Back to the serious topic at hand.....

Tried this gdgcd "mountain modal" banjo tuning out Saturday night and yes the intervals are exactly the same as the middle 4 strings of dadgad tuning on guitar, just in G instead of D. Just increased my banjo repertoire by a a bunch of tunes without even having to learn them. Damn! Why didn't I think of that before?

Bruce

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 05:28 PM

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 05:36 PM

Bedubya--

You mean we were serious? Oh, sorry.

Anita Kermode (zeppmusic.com/banjo/aktuning.htm) suggests that "Cluck Old Hen," "Pretty Polly," "Shady Grove," "Little Sadie," "The Cuckoo" and "East Virginia" may be performed in this key, in addition to "Sugar Baby," "Boll Weevil" and "Chilly Winds."

Muhammed al-Aasif had some success with a related BAGDAD tuning, but all his masters were destroyed in the bombing, and he has never played since. War is Hell.

CC

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 05:43 PM

What "Cold Frosty Morning" are we talking about here? There are 19 versions of one old Gaelic (Scots and Irish) tune known by that title in the COMBDODE.TXT file on my website. Find them by searching on ',251,'. None are minor.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: GUEST,dusty m
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 11:36 PM

i once found a site (or should i say...) with about 1000 different tunings for the 5 string banjo along with lists of recordings where they were used. betcha one'a you smart fo'kes knows knows it right-off!

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: GUEST,dusty m
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 11:48 PM

woops, never mind. i found it a few threads down.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Suffet
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:12 AM

Another interesting modal tuning you can try is this C-modal: g-c-g-c-c. The 1st and 2nd string are tuned in unison. The 1st and 5th strings both act as drones as you pick out tunes on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th strings. The tuning is very useful for songs which have, at various points, both the natural and the flatted 3rd and/or both the natural and the flatted 7th. Play, for example, John Henry. Darling Cory also works out well. I also like Kitty Alone this way, as the tuning carries echoes of the mountain dulcimer.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 09:24 AM

Just for the record here is a related mudcat thread Blue Clicky.
Quack!

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 05:28 PM

Alack, dear Suffet, I know it well: There are quite a few Mudcatters who act as drones, too. But where else in this dark world and wide can a man forget his own poorly embroidered sorrows by snooping on half the participants telling the other half to GET A FECKING LIFE? If there were video, this place would sell more popcorn than the World Wrestling Federation.

(Go fly THAT over the Mississipi capitol building; I dare ya.)

CC

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: GUEST,joe
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:52 PM

?

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:59 PM

Don't worry, Joe, that was a totally meaningless post. "?" is in fact the only licit response.

Welcome, congratulations, thank you, and do you have any rare, expensive instruments you can lend me??

Not getting any better. :)

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Suffet
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:22 AM

To bring the thread back onto topic, let me add this next thought. Tune your 5-string banjo to a-d-g-c-d and you have an excellent D modal tuning. You get your tonic chord by stopping the 2nd and 3rd strings on the 2nd fret: o-o-2-2-o.

Other useful chords:

F: o-3-2-o-3

C (with high a note drone): o-2-o-o-2

A: o-2-2-1-2

Am: o-2-2-o-2

G modal (with high a note drone): o-o-o-2-o

That should give you enough to get started. Try Reuben's Train, 900 Miles, Shalom Chaverim, John Hardy, Nottamun Town.

You can also leave the 1st string open as well as the 5th string so you get the double drone effect described earlier.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: GUEST,fretless
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:07 AM

From http://zeppmusic.com/banjo/aktuning.htm (Banjo-L)

gDGCD "G-modal", "Mountain Minor", "Sawmill" One of the most common banjo tunings for tunes in Dorian & Aeolian modal scales. E.g. Cluck Old Hen; Pretty Polly; Shady Grove; Little Sadie; The Cuckoo; East Virginia. Also sometimes used for D-centered tunes: e.g. Dock Boggs, Sugar Baby ("Dock Boggs: 12 Original Recordings"; "Dock Boggs, Vol 2"). Heath Curdts, Boll Weevil ("A Tribute to Tommy Jarrell") Curdts says that Jarrell used it for Chilly Winds. In BNL, Dec 1988, Ken Perlman discussed the use of this tuning for playing in B-flat and E-flat.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Margo
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 01:06 PM

Thanks, Suffet. I'm going to add this thread to my traced ones. I love those modal tunings... Margo

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Suffet
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 09:22 PM

Margo,

You are most welcome. Enjoy!

--- Steve

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Songster Bob
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 01:55 PM

I note that some of these tunes are identified as mixolydian that I thought were properly Dorian in scale. The whole-tone-down thing (G/F or D/C) is not at all restricted to mixo tunes. If the tune is pentatonic, you can have real problems identifying the difference, if, for example, the third is omitted. For autoharp players, as WYSIWYG is, tunes which are played on banjo in mountain minor or one of its variants (D tuning tuning with a raised 3d, for example -- f#DGAD or aDGAD) will often end up having this I/bVII chord change in 'em. The mixo tunes will sound okay with the I and flat VII both major, and the dori tunes will sound best with the I as a minor chord. An example would be using Am/G for the Coo-Coo Bird.

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 May 01 - 01:47 AM

This is all great!

~S~

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Suffet
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:27 PM

Greetings:

I just came from seeing "Down From the Mountain." While I like the Stanley Brothers' tune to "Man of Constant Sorrow," I prefer a mountain modal accompaniment to their bluegrass arrangement. Here is a bare bones idea of what can be done. The tuning (5th to 1st string) is g-d-g-c-d. Try drop-thumb style finger picking. A neat little riff is [string/fret] [2/2, 3/3, 3/0]. Attack the 2nd string with a hammer-on, a quick pick-off, and then another hammer-on. Anyway, here's the tune. Notes are shown immediately AFTER the words.

I'm[3/3] a[3/3] man[3/0] of[3/0] con-[3/0] stant[3/3] sor-[2/0] row,[2/0]
I've[3/3] seen[2/0] trou-[2/2] ble[2/2] all[2/0] my[3/3] days.[3/0] Place[3/3] where [2/0] I[2/2] was[2/2] born[2/0] and[3/3] raised.[3/0]


Note: Instead of playing [2/0], you can play [3/5]. That way you can reach the same note [c] by hammering-on or sliding up from [3/4]

Please take plenty of time to work out the rhythm. Use lots of chokes, slides, hammer-ns, pick-offs, etc. Try frailing some of the notes instead of finger picking. Work on the use of counter melodies, echos, and responses to fill the gaps. You'll like what you hear.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Suffet
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:41 PM

A couple of lines got lost in transmission. Let's try that again.


I'm[3/3] a[3/3] man[3/0] of[3/0] con-[3/0] stant[3/3] sor-[2/0] row,[2/0]

I've[3/3] seen[2/0] trou-[2/2] ble[2/2] all[2/0] my[3/3] days.[3/0]

I'm[3/0] go'in'[3/3] back[3/0] to[3/0] old[3/0] Ken-[3/3] tuc-[2/0] ky[2/0],

Place[3/3] where[2/0] I[2/2] was[2/2] born[2/0] and[3/3] raised.[3/0]


That should work.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 09:10 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Glenda
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:49 PM

Hello! And I'm new at this. Hopefullt someone can help me. I'm foing an oral history project on coal mining and ran across some information I don't understand. (Could it be because I'm musically challenged?!) I read that the English imigrants brought their meter to Appalchia ballads, especially coal mine ballads and songs. Can anyone explain this?

Thanks Glenda

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:06 PM

Do you mean time (meter) or tuning (modal)?

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:27 PM

Glenda - I suggest you start a new thread specifically aimed at your question. The people who might know what you want to find may not read an old thread, but a new one might attract their attention. Try to word the title of the thread to include a clue to your agenda.
Your question probably needs to be defined in a more clear fashion. Put a framework on your problem. Where are you based, and from what perspective are you looking at the oral history.
The Appachian mountains were populated by immigrants from many countries and backgrounds. Some were from English, Scottish or Irish backgrounds, others from other European countries, for instance Germany. Obviously each culture brought its own music and song. If people originating from one region were miners by trade, emigrated as a group, settled together in one location, and started to do the same job in their new land, they would also bring with them the local culture from their origins, so it would not surprise me to find their old patterns of speech echoed in their trade.
On the other hand, if people emigrated as individuals, settled in random locations and took to new trades, I wouldn't expect any great degree of carry-over from their homelands.
Good luck with your project.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:09 PM

Geoff is rithe. If you start your own thread, you can use your own title that would pin down what you are looking for. Something like Timing of Appalachian Ballads perhaps. I'd use Song Origins as your prefix.

Good luck and keep us posted. Several of us are from the mountains and may be able to help you. If you send a PM to kytrad, (the very famous Jean Ritchie)you'll hit the mother lode. She does answer her PMs, eventually. I'd send her a PM now as she will be very busy during the spring and summer.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:13 PM

Sorry, I forgot to tell you how to send a PM (Personal Message). Go to the Quick Links Pulldown, highlight Send a PM, click on Go, type in kytrad in the dialog box, and then click on the blue clicky that will come up. You're in business!

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:25 AM

Using guitar dadgad tunng, it is possible to play straight from banjo tab written in " mountain modal" tuning.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:54 AM

A plea-
Can folks stop giving names like "Mountain Modal Tuning" to banjo tunings and just list what the tunings are? Such as gDGCD or whatever. It may be harder to pronounce, but it's a helluva lot more informative.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:15 PM

Also, keep in mind that Glenda is asking a question about--meter--not modal. I believe that Geoffs advice is the best.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: GUEST,Sawmill Tuning for 5 string banjo
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 03:59 AM

Crank up the second string half a tone to match the third fretted at the fifth fret.   Wind down the fourth to be an octave below the second.

Johnson Boys is a good tune, Fly Around my Pretty Little Miss is another. Black Eyed Susie is good too. All good frailing tunes.
Turkey In the Straw is good if you are into three finger picking.

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:13 AM

Cranking up the second string half a tone and then fretting it at the second fret to match the first string is my usual retuning procedure. This is still my favorite tuning for major and minor songs. The notes just seem to fall in convenient places.

One of my favorite tunes is Gerry Hallom's arrangement of "Outside Track" (© 1982) by Australian poet and rabble-rouser Henry Lawson, 1896. I hear several tunes embedded in this one including "Rodie MacAuley" and "The Foggy Dew" and it really works well out of the C-chord position. For a MP3 sample:Click here!

In this sample I'm capoed up to the 5th fret in the key of F. I use a 3-fingered vrsion of double-thumbing with an occasional brush stroke thrown in.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: 'Mountain Modal Tuning'?
From: Annie
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 11:25 PM