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Who were the Scots. ljc
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Subject: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 05 Mar 02 - 07:31 PM This site is very informative fae ah Reformation point of view.Warning,It tends to be Anti Roman Catholic in its historical references.Nevertheless,a great deal of information about Irish and Scottish history and mythology is provided. Rather than copy and paste relative passages i give the site.Make of it what you will. History of the Scottish Nation |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 05 Mar 02 - 07:36 PM Disnae seem tae work like that.Try this. http://www.reformation.org/vol1contents.html |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: Mr Red Date: 05 Mar 02 - 09:16 PM Picts of the bunch? |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: masato sakurai Date: 05 Mar 02 - 09:21 PM The three volumes and the author are:
History Of The Scottish Nation ~Masato
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Mar 02 - 09:26 PM Go to "Main Menu" on this site and get a whole bunch of political and anti-Catholic items. Also stated is that the "Reformation Online" is brought to you by the Kilkenny Family. Who are they? In the background is some piping, then rather poor piano of "Rock of Ages." It certainly is anti-papist. Click on "Brainwashed" and get the lowdown on that rascal, St. Ignatius of Loyola, who founded his "deadly" order to fight "God's Reformation." ljc, you found a real doosie here. |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Mar 02 - 09:29 PM Tough one: Orange If this doesn't work, I'll give up. |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: GUEST Date: 05 Mar 02 - 09:54 PM There are several good histories of Scotland, but that website little john listed is long on rhetoric and short on facts. Fergus mac Roch (Fergus Mor in that website history) wasn't the first of the Scots (as the Irish were called then) to arrive in Kintyre (in 503 CE). There had already been a small group there, but no one knows for how long. Estimates run up to about 200 years. Fergus mac Roch is mentioned in a Mabinogion tale as a (distant) ally of King Arthur.
Gerald of Wales said the inhabitants of Ireland were called Scots because they were all descendents of a Spanish princess called Scotia. [Does this make all Irish black Irish?]
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 05 Mar 02 - 10:30 PM Tae save ye wadin through aw the early stuff here's the pairt concernin the Scots.Copy an' paste again. http://www.reformation.org/history.html |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 05 Mar 02 - 10:43 PM Guest,if ye took the time tae READ the facts ye wid see the naebody said Fergus wis the first king in Kintyre. . They were ruled over at the time of Columba's arrival by a king of their own nation, and had been so from the days of Fergus I., who led them across to the Argylshire coast. But their king was a tributary of the supreme monarch of Ireland, whose seat was at Tara. Columba, whose views were far-reaching, and who took the deepest interest in the fortunes of his countrymen in Kintyre, aimed at consolidating their nationality on this side of the channel, and making the sovereign authority among them independent. ljc |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: The Pooka Date: 05 Mar 02 - 11:39 PM Verrrrrrry interesting stuff, ljc. / As Dicho said, the main site is indeed a "doosie"; but you did give us fair (if rather mild) warning of that orientation as regards the Scottish & Irish historical material. So, thank you. A worthwhile study. I still say, all of God's creatures got a place in the choir. / Masato, you're on the ball as always. Good thing we have a scholar in the house. / But now (having recently learned of the gentle ditty "The Fenian Record Player"), I must be off and smash the bakeshop window, to annoy the Pope of Rome. :) |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: The Pooka Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:14 AM PS - On the OTHER hand, on the Reformation site main page if you click (halfway down the right-side panel) "Visit the Island of Saints and Scholars", you get to hear "The Soldier's Song"! Political Popery, by golly! The serried hosts of Innisfail will set the tyrant quaking! Scotia, Hibernia, Newfoundland, Bretagne, it's still rock-and-roll to me. |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: GUEST Date: 06 Mar 02 - 01:43 AM little john, it's you that need to do the reading. Fergus mac Roch and Fergus Mor are the same and so evidently is your Fergus I, and he came, with others, to Kintyre in 503 CE, which is 60 years before St. Columba went from Ireland to Iona.
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: michaelr Date: 06 Mar 02 - 01:57 AM King Arthur?!? Are we now considering King Arthur to be a historical figure?? Too far gone Michael |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: GUEST Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:45 AM I just figured out a few days ago the Geoffrey of Monmouth identifed the wrong Constantine as the father of Constans, Ambrosius Aurelianus, and Uthyr (Victor) Pendragon (Arthur's father). Arthur's cousin from Brittany in the Arthurian stories is Howell, also known as Hole, and Hywell in Britain and in his native Brittany as Riwal Mawr, and I've forgotten his Roman (i.e., Latin) name. Hueil however was one of the many sons of Caw/Caaus living with other Britons among the Pictts in Strathclyde (slightly before because his son, Gildas, the Saint and historian, said he came to Britian as a very young man and that must have been close to 500 CE from known dates of Gildas. Back to Hueil: He evidently abandoned the British and joined the Picts, and started rising hell, so King Arthru went north and killed him (that has bee suggested among other things as the reason that Gildas's history doesn't mention King Arthur, although he must have perrsonally known Arthur. With Irish history and Irish mythology (he's prominent in 'The Tain' and the stories leading up to it) can come up with the following for yet other names of Fergus: Fergus Mor mac Eirc, Fergus mac Roich (common), Fergus, the great son of Roech, Mac Roch, and Fergus mac Roith. From English and Scottish histories I found him as found as Fergus mac Erca. That god he didn't go to Alba (as it was termed in Ireland), or we'd hav a latin name to deal with, too. Fergus's migration to Kintyre (north, not east) was about the last of the Irish migrations to Britain and Alba or Albion (as the Irish called what we now call Scotland) Note that Irish had already taken almost the whole coast of Wales, and Cornwall to St Ives (an Irish female saint as I recall), and had already been expelled from much of it, or were currently being expelled. Cunneda and successors, starting c 430, had cleared North and South Rheged by about 500 CE, and Irish were expelled from Anglesy Island and nearby Gwent about 500. Sometime between 500 and 510 Agricola, son of Vortipor, had reconquered Demetian, but assimilated the Munster Irish there. Land locked tiny Breicheiniog (modern Brecon) was founded by Munster Irish, but knowning they were surrounded by British, they stayed on very good terms with them, and over a few centuries of intermarriage they were assimilated to death. [Bryan Brecheiniog was apparently the little King in the Arthurian romances, but not because he was small, just his kingdom.] Actually quite a few Brittish ones weren't much bigger, and that's one reason why history of the period is so hard. What do we do about all those people that are called kings, and where do we put them? I don't know how the coast of Conwall were cleared and the south cost of Wales, with it's many small British kingdoms, at the same time.
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:51 AM There were Scotti in Alba before Fergus is what i am trying to say.the settlement of Alba by the Irish Scotti apparently started around the second century AD. By the late fourth century, the Scotti had attained enough strength to draw the attention of the Picts. They were soon attacked and in retaliation Niall of the Nine Hostages, the High King of Ireland, landed with a sizeable force to punish the Picts. The little colony of Scottish Dalriada was saved and slowly gained strength over the next one hundred years. It is during the late fifth century that Fergus Mor (Big or Chief?) Mac (son of) Erc arrived in Scottish Dalriada. ljc |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: Zipster Date: 06 Mar 02 - 06:29 AM Right, let me first establish that everyone here knows a lot more than me. In light of that, can I aks a stupid question? Who was here (Scotland) before the Irish came over? I struggle to think that the place empty. Kintyre itself in no way could be desribed as inhospitable so was no one here? I'm sorry if I'm merely highlighting my ignorance, but in fairness I did try to warn you. R(Z) |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: greg stephens Date: 06 Mar 02 - 06:36 AM As long as we all remember that the history of this period is 99% guesswork from very limited and contradicory sources, we'll all have a lot of fun. It's when people start connecting it with who invented jigs and reels, or who has a right where and how to live in 2002, that it gets a bit heated. I love the many and varied fanciful reasons people have come up with for Gildas never mentioning Arthur. I like the theory that Arthur was actually one of the Old People who tried to keep the Celts out, and was subsequently absorbed into Celtic mytholgy as one of their heroes, and subsequently again by the English. We all need heroes! I would recommend "Facing the Ocean: the Atlantic and its peoples" by Barry Cunliffe for an overview of the last 10,000 years. He carefully avoids any serious discussion of Arthur. Quite a dry historical tome really, but very sound on the North Channel shortbread trade in 500AD. |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: Pied Piper Date: 06 Mar 02 - 06:39 AM Interesting stuff.Was there realy a "king of all Irland" at the time? or just somebody that claimed it as in the saxon Bretwalda. |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: GUEST,Today Date: 06 Mar 02 - 07:34 AM Would it not be better to consider who are the Scots than to bother about who they were? Enjoy the music but forget about something almost lost in Victorian pseudohistory. There are bits of Celts, bits of Vikings, bits of Saxons, mixed in there. There are now bits of all sorts of races from most corners of the globe so why worry. The variety makes life interesting. Go out and meet a foreigner it might - open your head. Peace |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: heric Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:39 AM Thanks so much for that recommendation, Greg. Mine's in the mail, along with the Seven Daughters of Eve in one of those "buy two" deals from amazon. Dan |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: greg stephens Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:44 AM Hope you enjoy it Dan. But a warning, i just might have made up the shortbread bit. Youre not the Dan Kelly who used to sing in Oxford in the 60's are you? though come to think of it, he might have been called Dan somethingorotherelse |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:54 AM O'Brien was the king at Tara.ljc |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:04 PM That would be Brian Boru,English spelling.Another ancient King was Niall of the nine hostages.In Irish mythology, Tara was first the capital of the Firbolg, the mythical People of the Bag who settled in Ireland after fleeing from Greece, where they were enslaved and forced to carry earth in bags. The Firbolg made ships out of the bags and sailed to Spain, then to Ireland, which they ruled until the coming of the Tuatha de Danaan (Gaelic for People of the Goddess Danu). Later, Tara was the capital of the Milesians, also known as the Gaels, who are rumoured to have arrived in Ireland 1500 years before Christ was born. ljc |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: greg stephens Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:11 PM Are you sure the Fir Bolg werent People from Belgium? It's not so romantic but...... |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: katlaughing Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:37 PM Here's some interesting stuff on the Firbolg |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: Zipster Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:45 PM I'd just to thank all of you following this thread for taking time out of your busy schedules to completely ignore my question. Z(R) |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 06 Mar 02 - 01:04 PM Zipster,sometimes we get sidetracked here.In Scotland,Picts,Celts,Norse and them various comings and goings. ljc |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: greg stephens Date: 06 Mar 02 - 01:05 PM Sorry Zipster. how about Britons in the south west, South Picts in the middle and North Picts in the north. Well,that's one theory anyway. And probably some Ulster Scots lurking here and there and muttering in an incomprehensible language. |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: GUEST,Today Date: 06 Mar 02 - 01:47 PM Does anyone read the threads before they post? Little John Cameron - Piss off I think I already said that. Enjoy Newfoundland.
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: katlaughing Date: 06 Mar 02 - 02:09 PM Zipster, if it helps any, please remember this is an international forum with folks coming in and going out all round the clock. Sometimes it takes a few hours for an answer because no one has been in who might know, etc. |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: GUEST,wbo Date: 06 Mar 02 - 04:14 PM Working in the not so wee hours in the morning, I made a number of mistakes, not counting the typos in a note above. It was Gwynedd, not Gwent, opposite Anglsey Island that was cleared of Irish at about 500 CE. I also fouled up the name of Fergus in my Scots and English histories, but we already have enough of Fergus, so I won't bother to correct it.
Fergus had been king of a small teritory in northeast Ireland with a friend Mac Erac in a big kingdom along one of his borders and a number of unfriendly kings along the rest of his borders. However, Mac Erca formed a new alliance with the Ulaind in Ireland and ceeded much of his territory adjacent to Fergus's to enemies of Fergus, so Fergus left with his two brothers and a large group of his followers. Irish Annals give his emmigration date as 503, accordin to an English history, although the writers of my Irish and Scots histories don't seem know that. King Arthur's correct grandfather is sorted out here: Constantines Unconfused
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: GUEST Date: 06 Mar 02 - 04:22 PM Katlaughing, with hindsight it might have been more politic to refresh my question, as there had been several posts from the main contributors I think its safe to say that it had been ignored. Thanks however greg and ljc for your responses. Perhaps I didn't give credit for the intensity of your discussion and the, I'm sure, comparative facileness of my query. Z(R)
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: katlaughing Date: 06 Mar 02 - 04:45 PM Zipster, I meant no offense; just thought pointing that out might be helpful. I would not have reposted your question as it appreared to have been answered, with apologies. People do get excited and wound up about what they are going to post next and do skip over someone's question, now and then, but it usually has nothing to do with the quality of the question, nor the questioner. I am sorry if it seemed that way to you. ljc, you've done it, again, started another good thread. This is incredibly interesting. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: GUEST,Zipster sans cookie Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:03 PM Katlaughing, none taken, I guess I must have been touchy earlier. Certainly I think its fair to say I wouldn't have cared if I wasn't finding this interesting and learning a lot here, so I'm grateful to those contributing. I think I'll just lurk this thread out. Z(R) |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:31 PM Whit d' ye mean, Greg? Tae sae that "the history of this period is 99% guesswork from very limited and contradicory sources" is hardly fair! In fact it sounds mare like a description o' the local weather report tae me, not o' the discussion at hand here. Little John may be a somewhit "limited" source (and who is not), but the man is never contradicory! And ye shouldnae be sae critical of folk that "mutter" in incomprehensible languages...remember that the failure tae comprehend is one reflecting mare on the observer than on the speaker! Ah've seen people that cannae comprehend the most simple instructions no matter whit ye do or whit ye sae or whit dialect ye voice it in. And whose fault is that? Lack o' comprehension is exactly the reason why haggis isnae served in Starbucks and the bagpipes are not mare popular in St. Louis than the saxophone. Ye dinnae have tae be a rocket scientist tae ken that! - LH |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:00 PM Aw there ye are LH,Ah wis woderin whaur ye were.Scotty wid be prood o ye! Maist Irish history is weel documentit baith fae a historical an' mythological perspective.The Fact that theScots were originally fae Ireland is indisputable.Fergus an' his brithers are weel covered in the Annals o Ulster Alang wi' the firbolg,DeDanaan an' aw' the ither Mythological races that hae inhabited this wee planet. Archeological sources are noo findin oot that money o these tales are accurate,jist recordit different accordin tae the times.For instance,it is noo pretty weel acceptit aboot the great flood. Ah aye likit the sayin"There are mair things in heaven an' earth than wis dreamt o in yer philosophy,Jimmy" Anyway it is aw very interestin is it no?If ye dinnae unnerstaun whaur ye've been,ye'll never unnerstaun whaur ye're gaun. ljc |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: Brendy Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:32 PM The site isn't totally together, yet B. |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:58 PM Noo here we go.Brendy is the man tae answer aw yer questions.Ye hae the flair pal. ljc |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: GUEST,wbo Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:25 AM Little Hawk, Greg is correct. Most British 'history', c 400-550 is manuscripts compiled by monks about 500 to 600 years after the events described. We rarely know where they got their information. Perhaps a little from Gildas, c 540, and a little from Nennius c 800, but nothing else early. But things are even worse than that, because the manuscripts that comprise the Book of Lafcarn are slanted at best and some are outright fakes. Similarly, John Morris has commented of the 'crazily perverted' Brecon archives. The recent "Journey to Avalon" by Chris Barber and David Pykitt used a genealogy of King Arthur from the Brecon archives to show his patrimony. The two kings prior to Marchall are evidently Visigoths naval commanders that came to Britain rather than go to Spain with the rest in 507 CE when they were chaxed out of Gaul. Marchall, the daughter of Tewdrig (Theodoric) in he archives, is evidently his fellow army commander Marcellus, and not the mother of anyone.
I was fortunate to find some relevant information in Gibbon's 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire', because we can take that as real history from near contemporary continental written records, without sifting through person, time, place, and event, in those late British manuscripts with the hope that some of it may be correct.
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: greg stephens Date: 07 Mar 02 - 04:24 AM This "Journey to Avalon" by Chris Barber sounds interesting. Was it recorded before Monty Sunshine left the band, in what most would consider the golden years, or in the more mainstream/blues later period. And i'm indebted to LJC for the info that Shakespeare wrote in Scots, that's a turnup for the books.Do you havefurther thoughts on his identity? Could he have been James I/VI. |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 07 Mar 02 - 10:17 AM Ha ha Greg,nae flies oan you is there.Ah while ago ah wrote a wee bittie o MacHamlet oan here at the request o mah pal LH.Ah also postit a some o the Bible in Scots.When a come back fae the pub ah'll hae a look for them.BTW that site o the invasions is very guid Brendy.It it yours? ljc |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: greg stephens Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:22 AM ljc if you'ld translate that last question into cornish or english i might consider anwering it. |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: Brendy Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:38 AM 'Tis me biy. Trying to get the Uliad finished, and the Ossianic up there, before Paddy's Day. There's nothing saying I will, mind you, but a fella has to have plans, anyway. B. |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: greg stephens Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:41 AM Aha I see. I thought Brendy was an obscure word in Doric. Now on actually reading a few items inthe thread, I see it's someone's name.( strikes forehead on ground in ritualistic self-abasement) |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:44 AM Least o' mah worries whether ye answer oneythin a post pal. Here's a wee bit o' Hamlet for ye no tae answer as weel. Tae be or no tae be,ah've aye wondered aboot that? Whether ye're better aff tae pit up wi shit or tae fecht back.Maist times ah think the answer wid be jist knock yersel aff an hae a nice quiet nap.Nae daft dreams tae waken ye up an frichten the life oot o ye as ye wid be deid oneyway. Then again that wid mibbe cause anither problem as ah dinnae know whit the deid dreams micht be worse an then ye wid be scuttered. Wi aw the finaglin an crookery that goes oan in the warld at least ye get yased tae it efter a while.So mibbe stickin a big needle in yersel micht be a wee bit rash,dae ye no think?. The deil ye know micht be better then the deil ye dont know. So ah think we're to too feart tae tak the chance.
Jist talk tae Ophelia aboot it.She knows |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: GUEST,Erse Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:57 PM If little john cameron is so scots why is not called wee john cameron? Just a thought. |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Mar 02 - 02:27 PM LOL! This is grrreat. I get mare of a laugh frae these Scottish threads than aw the rest o' Mudcat put taegither! Hamlet's soliloquy in Scots is the maist bonny wee bit o' daft doggerel Ah hae ever laid eyes upon. ROTFLMAO!!! Tell me mare! - LH |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:34 PM Ye're exactly richt aboot that...it shuid be spelt "mair". Ah'll try tae do be'er next time... - LH |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 07 Mar 02 - 05:27 PM Whaur is it written doon aboot the correct spellin? Noo listen here LH, |
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Subject: RE: Who were the Scots. ljc From: little john cameron Date: 07 Mar 02 - 05:27 PM Whaur is it written doon aboot the correct spellin? Noo listen here LH, |
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