BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 12:15 AM

I'll take 300 too.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 12:33 AM

In fact there have already been substantial protests, by students and others, against Ahminejad's perceived recklessness and against his junketing, to Latin America, among other places, while the Iranian economy goes to hell in a handbasket.

A manufactured crisis against a Western bogeyman--especially, as I said, if the West reacts violently-- would distract the population nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:58 AM

Religion and politics: The game they played with Faye Turney seems to indicate that all is not right in the world of Iran's internal politics. I wonder if there's a coup in the offing?

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:17 AM

I was wondering when the Americans would get into it.

US rejects Iran captives exchange http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6512927.stm

Now the scene hots up.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:24 AM

So when did the USA annexe Great Britian?

Musta blinked...

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:28 AM

"US officials have ruled out a deal to exchange 15 Royal Navy personnel captured in the Gulf for five Iranians seized by American forces in Iraq. "

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:32 AM

Brillant example of 'Divide & Conquer' Politics - now who said those guys were dumb?

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:40 AM

Why the surprise even the Iranians stated very clearly that the issues relating to, UN/IAEA nuclear programme, the five Iranian Republican Guards in Iraq and the UK Sailors and Marines are all completely separate.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:51 AM

Iran is fucked up. They have at least two official voices--depending on the hour. Thee if the clerics get into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:52 AM

That should read 'Three'.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 08:39 AM

During the present troubles in the north of Ireland the British patrolled the waters bordering the Irish Republic, they had a boat on constant watch in Carlingford Lough.   Irish fishing boats were constantly hauled in by raiding parties from the Brit boats, and this was usually in Irish waters.
Despite constant pleas by the Republics Government this form of harassment continued, remember the old song, Rule Britannia, Britannia waives the rules, and with the Brits it is the same the world over.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:34 AM

Of course, of course, of course (yawn) yeah right

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford.
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:58 AM

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE130342007?open&of=ENG-IRN
This Amnesty International report tells how this wicked regime treats its own prisoners.
There are dozens more Amnesty reports current.
The Now Show on BBC Radio 4 found the plight of the hostages and their desperate families highly amusing.
Only in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:20 AM

Yes, the Iranians seem to be masters of hardball "diplomacy" . As has been said, at the start of the crisis they clearly stated that an exchange of the British sailors for the the Iranians captured in Iraq was not their goal. If they had said it was the object of this artificial incident, it would have been transparent. Now they can wait while UK sentiment to get the prisoners released builds. And in fact what have the Iranians found in Iraq been charged with? Is there any proof they are guilty of a crime?   The sailors are obviously completely innocent.

If the request for the exchange stems from the UK, the Iranians can "generously" comply. If the Bush "admininistration" is unwilling, the rift between the UK and US is increased.

And if the crisis builds--and military action against Iran is started, the shaky Ahminejad government can appeal--successfully-- for patriotic resistance. And it will "prove" to his own people that--even if the nuclear sites were to be successfully destroyed this time in air attacks--a huge if, considering how scattered they are, with some underground-- attaining a nuclear weapon is the only way to avoid bullying by the West.

But those who feel that the British started this crisis intentionally should think again. Who has more to gain from the incident? It's patently obvious the British have nothing to gain. And the shaky Iranian regime has everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:27 AM

Those who think the British started this crisis should think for a first time. Iran was playing to the crowd--the UN vote. Fifteen people mean nothing to them. Pawns. In this case, they have bit off more than they are prepared to chew. They will lose the political dimension of this. True, their 'brothers' in the Mid East will look to them with admiration for tugging the tail of the British. But the international community sees this group in Iran for what it is. And what it is ain't nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:38 AM

And of course if the US does attack Iran--which would be to prevent Iran's becoming a nuclear state--feared mightily by some of our Mudcatters, who are rattling sabres rather loudly, like the usual Bushite suspects elsewhere,--- the US will be responsible for any deaths that stem from that--as in Iraq.   And be supported neither by the UN-- nor the US electorate-- this time. No blank check for Bush again. So if he tries it, immediate impeachment and conviction. And it will clinch the title for him, if there was any doubt--the all-time worst US president.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 12:44 PM

Ron, you're right. So why did the Brits play it so close to the bone?
What were they thinking & what was their agenda? They could've been a bit more careful & sayed at least far enough away so's not to be within a margin of error. Had they, all this speculation & the present sabres rattling would not be happening. Does no one think with foresight or is this delibrate, at the very least it's the movements of idiots, at worst can only be imagined.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 01:39 PM

Abrry, there was no error. ONly the Iranians (and DIanavan, who thinks it was an invasion with pigs) suggest (and that mendaciously) any border crossing by the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 01:45 PM

Exactly! Knowing Iran's defensive position, why did Britain push the envelope. Why not stay well away from a territorial dispute? It was very brazen of the Iranians to capture the Brits when they were outgunned and outmanned but the fact is they did it and wherever the border may or may not be is no longer the primary concern. The object should be the return of the British captives.

One thing for certain, Iranian 'honour' is not something to take lightly. In other words, there must be a way for them to return the hostages and save face. Unfortunately, with no apology or admission of guilt by the Brits, and no chance of negotiating a hostage exchange, it leaves the Iranians only to consider a final option. That option would be to try the Brits in their courts.

In the meantime, the Iranians will use this hostage incident for PR and strengthen their regime at home. It also helps to turn worldwide public opinion against the U.S. Unfortunately, the British hostages become the sacrificial lambs.

btw - If people think Iran is treating their hostages badly, lets have a look at the Iranian hostages in U.S. custody.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 01:45 PM

Look, it is now clear to me.

The British must have known where they were to within yards if not feet with modern satnav.

The commander of the Cornwall must have known both where the border is and where the Iranians say it is.

Therefore either the British were playing for this situation (which does seem rather improbable) or the Iranians were lying more than usual inspired by religion (indeed any religion) which often has that effect.

We've all taken harder decisions than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 01:49 PM

"it leaves the Iranians only to consider a final option. That option would be to try the Brits in their courts." -

Oh, come on, dianavan. Listen to yourself ...

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:24 PM

My understanding is that the Brits were greatly outgunned, and taken by surprise by what seems very likely to have been advance planning by the Iranians.

Have the Iranians admitted/agreed that the Brits were taken at the exact location of the merchant vessel? Have the merchant ship's officers confirmed or contradicted that?

(Has no one attempted to get the lock on these civilians as witnesses? There is a lot at stake.)

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:31 PM

>>One thing for certain, Iranian 'honour' is not something to take lightly. In other words, there must be a way for them to return the hostages and save face.<<
Why Dianavan They made the mistake. let them apologise to the Brits. F*** their pride, they shouldn't have done it in the first place.

Why should the Brits apologise for Iran's stupid agrression and what is clearly out of order.
All I can say is if Iran harms those sailors, Iran are going to be in deep shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:32 PM

heric - How could a few Iranians in a gun boat, outman and outgun the British Navy with a ship, a helicopter and a couple of dinghys in the area? Unless of course, it all happened very near the Iranian shoreline.

I'm interested in learning more about this.

I agree that the 'innocent' bystanders need to be questioned more thoroughly but by now I'm sure they have been de-briefed by the Iraqis as well as the Brits.

Why don't the Brits just say, "Oops, sorry for the confusion," and get their people back?

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:36 PM

Why don't you talk with your Iranian friends and get them people back dianavan before things happen that Iran can't handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:43 PM

Where is the logic in threatening to kill many people over a few of your people who have merley been arrested, but not harmed?

Seems to me that everyone's national pride is getting a little out of hand here. This is not something to go killing people over. It's the kind of thing that often happens in tense border situations in or near a war zone. Such things have happened in Korean waters more than once in the last few decades, and we did not fight another Korean war over it, did we?

This is as big a problem as you choose to make it, and I don't see it as a very big problem...unless people lose their heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:45 PM

Why would I do that when Britain can't even take care of their own. Emphasis on:

"the commander of HMS Cornwall apparently ordered them to surrender."

"With a pitifully weak navy and allergies of their own, the British were unable (or refused) to defend the sailors once they were surrounded; the commander of HMS Cornwall apparently ordered them to surrender. This despite the fact that British and especially American naval forces are putting pressure on Iran in increasingly aggressive ways — indeed the British navy was put on high alert weeks ago, in expectation of a bad reaction from Tehran. Now Tony Blair has asked Washington to stand back while he negotiates the release of the sailors from a position of weakness and utter humiliation."

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MWI3NDc1MGI3YjYyYzllODZiNzUwZGZiNmNiNDJhNDQ=

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:55 PM

Sorry LH - cross posted. My reply was to Villain.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:59 PM

As much as I have NO use for Tony Blair, and as much as I dislike the US policy such as it is in Iraq, I think the Iranians have fucked up big time on this. DDespite a recent statement by the Saudi leader that he would support the Sunnis if the US pulled out of Iraq, he was parenthetically clear that he would do that because his real fear is Iran and the Shi'ite majority there. Iran has had and continues to have a history of getting its people worked up over issues that really aren't. This bullshit--the arresting of 15 marines/sailors--is a play to the peanut gallery in Iran. Within days crowds were shouting "Death to Britain" then a few "Death to Americas". What I think has happened is that Iran badly miscalculated the reaction of the Brits. Britain is the union that sailed 1/3 of the way around the world to wage a war against an entrenched enemy whose supply line was shorter than theirs. The work of the SAS and then the troops who landed was awesome. The Navy and the Airmen/women took their share of casualties, but there was never any doubt in my mind that the UK would win. On some issues they are just too fuckin' proud to give up. (The years after Dunkirk attest to that, and the defense of the Falklands (and before someone starts with 'they were the Maldives and Argentia owned them', I have heard that one before).

The Iranians may think they have pride, but I know they really have no idea what they are up against on this. If they have any damned sense at all, they will release the hostages--because that is what those 15 people are--THEN deal with the IraqisBrits on where the line really is. I give it tops ten days and shit will start to happen. Some of it will escalate I don't doubt. I think it won't involve nukes, but it will be bloody. The result will be the fall of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. I can't say I'd be sorry to see him go, and define go how you will.

Iran has already lost the political dimension. All Iran can do now is either release the hostages or keep those hostages deal with the anger of a nation that will NOT back down. Sometimes pride goeth before a fall, and sometimes it precedes a real shit kicking.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:01 PM

d'van - The Cornwall was out in deeper water, by an earlier report referenced above but I can't recall which one.

The helicopter left the scene, for reasons I don't remember exactly and which I think were a bit unclear - I think it was just too routine and boring for them to hang around, and something called them them toward the Iraqi shore.

One BBC report, however, says that the helicopter saw the Iranians approaching, and that I do not understand. (This is referenced up above at 23 Mar 07 - 12:59.)

(Also up above, 28 Mar 07 - 12:52 AM, it shows Terri Judd, reporting from the Cornwall, says the Iranians surrounded the Brits as they approached the merchant vessel. Strange an onite reporter could get it so wrong, five or so days after the event.)

For reasons still unknown to the West, the boarding party's gps stopped functioning at the time of their apprehension. (I forget where I read that.) Some conjecture that the Brits threw it into the sea, perhaps to preclude Iranian access to it. (I think this was very helpful in that the Iranians could not bring it into Iranian waters, while still transmitting.) This device was monitored and apparently displayed at the Cornwall continuously and in real time. From what I can tell, this is extraordinarily good evidence, especially in combination with the merchant vessel's records, of exactly where the incident occurred. I don't see how Russia or others could dismiss it. The only way it can be dismissed is to say that the records could have been altered after the fact, aboard the Cornwall, while not generating inconsitencies elsewhere, which seems very unlikely.

I finnaly got to view the DOD video on the BBC site, and as referenced by Keith, above. They guy referenced four or five similar boardings in the same area shortly before this incident. These earlier events would certainly help the Iranians plan their little excursion. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6501555.stm) This little excursion also greatly enhances their "street cred" in the Middle east, which you know means a lot to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:07 PM

The commander of HMS Cornwall may have wanted to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, which speaks well of him. So far there has been no bloodshed, as far as we know. Does anyone really think we'd be a whole lot further ahead if there had been?

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:11 PM

We don't call the military (or other) personnel of another power "hostages" when we take them prisoner. Has anyone besides me ever noticed that?

When the USA or Britain or Israel take someone from any other country prisoner, our media does not refer to those people as "hostages".

It's a fine example of how our media works to focus and influence hearts and minds, isn't it? ;-)

You need your program to keep you informed at all times who the good guys and bad guys are, so you know when to boo and when to cheer and when to call for blood. Just like in pro wrestling.

What the Iranians do is like what we do. They don't call people they arrest "hostages". We don't call people we arrest "hostages". It's the same self-serving rhetoric on all sides, as far as I can see. Everyone thinks it's the other guy who is in the wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:13 PM

(I ~think~ Lambert ordered the boarding party to surrender.)

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:16 PM

No of course not meself, but when you get people like dianavan potificating about Iran, then obviously us Brits are going to get pissed off with people like him/her. Even maybe the Americans.

Dianavan, wake up and realise the enormity of what Iran has done. Stop taunting and get sensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:19 PM

You might be right, LH, unless the Iranians, as alleged, intentionally violated international law, in which case hostages becomes a more accurate term than "arrestees." We don't know the truth (or the applicable law) yet. That's why Russia's "we just can't tell what the fats are" position is so frustrating.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:20 PM

You're right, Peace, it's Ahmadinejad. I knew my spelling didn't look right. But I expect, and I hope, that your predictions of bloody conflict over this so soon are too pessimistic. There are still many possibilities of real diplomacy getting the sailors released, unharmed.

I'd still like to know what, aside from Bush's pride, prevents an exchange of the Iranians taken in Iraq for the sailors taken by the Iranians.

And anybody who says that would be rewarding aggression is invited to propose a better solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:21 PM

Oh, Villan, you know the yanks are just chomping at the bit. Every moment of restraint is to their great credit.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:27 PM

"Everyone thinks it's the other guy who is in the wrong. "

In this case, LH, the other guy IS wrong. The Iranians arrested 15 people with whom they are not at war. They refuse to return them to their country of origin. They are using those people as chips in a poker game. What other word works? Involuntary guests of the Iranian state? If that makes it sound better, OK. But it don't change the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:27 PM

Yes indeed heric.

Iran and dianavan are taunting everybody, but they will get their come uppence.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:31 PM

There will never be any way of proving to everyone's satisfaction whether or not the Iranians violated international law. It will remain merely a matter of opinion.

The Iranians think the USA violated international law when arresting some of their people a while back. It's all a matter of opinion.

There is absolutely no point in killing a few hundred thousand more people over this latest incident, but I'm sure that doesn't worry whoever would like to have a war over there. War is always good business for somebody.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:33 PM

"No of course not meself, but when you get people like dianavan potificating about Iran, ... "

My remark was primarily a response to dianavan's quote to the effect that the order to surrender was some kind of a sign of weakness on the part of the commander and by extension the British navy. At least, that seemed the implication to me ...

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:38 PM

dianavan used to make my blood boil at times, too. That was before I met the person who writes under that nom de plume, who is a first class person of character. Our problem now is that the Brits let the US administration get away with too much lying, too recently. It is unfortunate, for exactly this reason and the type of situation we have here.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:43 PM

I disagree with you, LH, that countries should not attempt to devise international protocols and laws. Many more people are likely to die without them than with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:45 PM

Ron, I have to google his name every time I need to use it. Asshole would work, but then people might think I'm talking about Bush and it would get confusing at that point.

LH, I agree that a war over this makes no sense, but what you or I think in that regard means bugger all. Right now the Iranians are making no sense. They have arrested 15 people. If it's an arrest, what are the charges and when is the trial? If it isn't an arrest, what the hell is it? The UK is not at war with Iran and neither is Iraq. The fact the arrested people are in the military but are not at war means they fall outside the Geneva protocols regarding prisoners of war. If that is so then they should be treated as civilians and have to face Iranian criminal law. But you and I both know it's not about law. It is about Iran using 15 people to make a point. Hell, if that had been me making the arrest, I would have taken the captured crew to a police station, charged them with trespassing, called the press, made an issue of it and then asked the jude to give them a sentence of 'time served' and requested that the UK send a boat to take back their people along with a note that read, ". . .and don't friggin' do it again!" But this is not about law or right. It is about Iran pushing a limit. As I said, I think they can get one more week out of it before stuff begins to happen. Do I hope stuff happens? Absolutely not. But please don't propose in this instance that Iran is righteous. Too much militates against that position.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:15 PM

Well this is the latest. What a load of b******s

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1258488,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Old Grizzly
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:16 PM

That's the last time they give the girl the map

D

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:19 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:30 PM

"our brave border guards who followed the path of the martyrs"?! Proves he's lying - there are no paths on the open sea. Even I know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:35 PM

http://www.news.com.au/sundayheraldsun/story/0,,21471083-663,00.html

Dianavan, to make a change from BBC, here is the biggest selling Australian paper to tell you that the Indian ship's crew confirm the British version of events.
Who said that the GPS stopped working? The iranians broke the link to the Cornwall and all contact was lost, inculuding their GPS feedback.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:44 PM

heric - "That was before I met the person who writes under that nom de plume, who is a first class person of character."

Thanks, but now you have blown my cover, I'm blushing.

I'd agree with Ron - What, besides pride, prevents an apology or a hostage exchange?

Its time like this that masculine ego infuriates me. Why not just swallow your pride and get everyone home safely instead of getting your feathers ruffled and starting a war? Finger pointing never solves anything. Accepting your part of the problem goes a long way toward arriving at a solution. Lets face it, Britain can hardly be called an innocent victim.

btw - Iranians are not "my friends". I would hate to live under the Mullahs or Arabian Politicians. I do, however, admire Persian culture, especially their scholarship. I actually think that they are much more advanced in their military strategies and tactics. They make the west look like bumbling idiots. Thats what I mean when I say, be careful when you play with the big boys.