BS: A non-political BS section, please?!

Subject: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 09:49 AM

When more changes are implemented on Mudcat, please, please consider segregating BS-Political to its own realm. That way maybe the regular BS section can return to some semblance of creativity.

Note: I am NOT asking for a ban on political discussions, just give them their own section.I know this has been mentioned before. I know I can filter them out, but with so many that is not very practical as there are too many keywords to catch them all. And, yes, I realise I used to be one of the first to start a pol. thread. Then there was some balance. We have lost that. I'd like to see it return, even if it means another section added to Mudcat.

Thanks for listening.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 11:47 AM

How could this be achieved Katlaughing? when almost every thread in the BS section and many in the music section have "political" content.

Even a thread like "Sitting at the kitchen table" could be described as "political" by reason of being "anti-political" Ake

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 01:07 PM

I love ya, katdarlin, and you know it. But I think you are way off the mark here. I didn't agree with separation of BS and music. I think the political/social/rant/rave is a part of the folk process and very important to the music. I believe much of the music we revere from earlier times was a reflection of the politics and social events of the times. Now you want to further dissect it? Maybe later you will want to divide Irish political discussions into their own section because of the rancor? Doesn't make sense to me, m'love. Folks are going to talk about what they want, and I for one enjoy lurking and getting a glimpse into what makes people tick.   In fact, the BS threads probably influence my music more than the music threads.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 02:11 PM

All the tools you ever require to prevent you seeing what may not be to your taste is your mouse button. No one on our forum is being forced to read or contribute to anything that is not to their taste and any one who does not like this, is free to go elsewhere.

There is nothing noble in being seen to suggest steps that would limit, prevent or restrict in any way others from seeing things that are to their taste or from posting things that they choose.

Perhaps our 'moderators' could concern themselves with encourging posters to concentrate on their own tastes and enabling them to freely do this - rather than encouraging them to post only to pass judgements on the tastes of others?

If they were to set the example of minding their own business - perhaps others would then follow suit?

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: The Walrus
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 02:29 PM

Perhaps the solution might be to allow members to permanently 'flag' threads (either a logo/bullet or colour change) to mark threads they have no interest in or, indeed, wish to find easily (in the same way that threads read change colour until the next comment is made).

This would have the same effect for Kat as having the treads seperated, she could flag the unwanted threads then ignore the red* ones leaving the rest open.

Just an idea

W

* Or whatever colour

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 02:34 PM

There simply is no need, IMO. You have the ability not to even read them. That is all one needs do. Kind of like just simply not responding to folks with an obsessive need of attention, then watching them flop around fishing for response. That would be quite entertaining to watch.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 02:39 PM

I like that idea, The Walrus, thank you.

I am NOT talking about ANYthing to do with music. I am talking about the myriad of BS political threads which are evident, right now, in the BS section. Of course music is full of political content, but many of the threads which are in the BS section have nothing to do with music and I think you are being a bit facetious to pretend not to notice that distinction, Micakdarlin'etc. I guess there is no returning to the plethora of real creativity...mediocrity abounds.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 02:40 PM

Mudcat IS a political blog site that attracts trolls and whack jobs from lots of places, as well as people who just like to argue. We're not a folk music site anymore, and we're not a community, and I think most of the friends and allies we'll ever have in the physical world because of Mudcat have have already been made, and in some cases, lost.

I know most people don't really care how uncomfortable they make others - they're gonna post whatever they want. Some people LIKE making others uncomfortable, and posters always win over those that don't want to read. I personally be happy if there were a way to move the politics the fuck off the main Mudcat forum, because it really is nothing but a blog now. Do I think that's likely to happen? No. These people WANT to shove it in your face, and it would be a real bitch to moderate.

Walrus, I proposed that a while ago. What I truly want is a way to filter out multiple subjects and posters. If we all had a way to do that, there would be far fewer posts about people don't want to read. Members would have control over what thread or message titles they saw.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 02:45 PM

Facetious? I assure you I was not being facetious in the least bit. There is no need whatsoever for any further controls. Except self control which often seems in short supply. Simply restrain yourself. Simply don't open that which you don't like. Control yourself instead of those around you. There is no need for anything further, IMO. If that upsets you, so be it.

Political arguments spawn as much music, I would guess, as almost any other influence.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:03 PM

You can't possibly object to someone controlling what they alone read!

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:05 PM

"You can't possibly object to someone controlling what they alone read!"

No doubt someone will try.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:12 PM

You already have the ability to do that. I am not objecting to your suggestion. Some sort of control that could be used by the individual to control their own reading is fine. Some sort of forced segregation as kat suggests is folly and unworkable. It also segregates further the sharing of political views that might be disturbing, but also stimulates understanding among people. I much preferred the earlier discussions of Irish Republicanism when many contributed, to the ones we see now which feature mainly two players throwing precooked propaganda back and forth. If we are going to control political debate, let's just ban it.

The idea of segregation of discussion has no merit. Controls one could use to stay out of certain discussion already exist, but if one wants to make it more efficient, that is fine.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:16 PM

The 'Irish' threads have had some rancor, for sure. However, in the course of the past few year many bridges were rebuilt and I think some friendships were formed--based on understanding of the other's position.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: GUEST, Courgette
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:17 PM

Everything's political - haven't you seen the advert? (UK)

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:28 PM

Peace, threads on this subject matter go all the way back to very nearly the beginning. Some rancor, some ugliness, much understanding and growth. And all one needs to do, if they don't like it is stay out. Simply only engage in that which you want to talk about. Phoney barricades just inhibit the discussion.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:41 PM

"Phoney barricades just inhibit the discussion."

Agree 100%. For some folks it's an issue to control things. For others it ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:55 PM

Jeri, your lament for the loss of erudition and gentility on Mudcat is only symptomatic of the rest of this wide world, where these commodities are in ever decreasing supply. People don't give up their seats for old ladies, or hold doors open for one another anymore, please and thank you are either taught and then forgotten or not taught at all to today's kids.
You're harking back to a past that is unfortunately gone, and no one regrets it more than me.
Regretfully I have to learn to live with it!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:57 PM

Gawd, I miss the 1960s . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 04:03 PM

This will be my one and only visit to this thread. I fully understand some of you find the political threads shitty. As an Irish Republican I mostly come in on the defensive when someone is attacking the Provisionals, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 04:42 PM

Mick, you don't understand what I mean. I would still be able to block posters and keywords in thread titles which I don't personally need to see. I would like everyone to be able to do this, if they so wish. If you would like to see everything (and there's a good chance I will occasionally want to), you're welcome to it.

I'm guessing the Writers of the Code won't have time for this. I also think it might serve to head off some of the complaining.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 04:56 PM

How much effort does it take to see a thread with : Bush/Labour/IRA/Tories/Republicans in it and NOT open it?

About a nanosecond. Try it, it works. And it's a darn sight quicker than trying to convince everyone else they need to also be controlled.

f things aren't how you like them don't assume the same for us all.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 05:23 PM

Mudcat IS a political blog site that attracts trolls and whack jobs from lots of places, as well as people who just like to argue. We're not a folk music site anymore, and we're not a community, and I think most of the friends and allies we'll ever have in the physical world because of Mudcat have have already been made, and in some cases, lost.

Yup. And a particularly rancorous and uncreative political blog at that .

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 05:31 PM

"and we're not a community"

Truer words were never spoke.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 05:48 PM

Boy, you sure nailed it, Jeri. My thoughts egg-zackly.

Mick, you know me well enough, I should think, to know I HAVE been doing as you suggest: Simply restrain yourself. Simply don't open that which you don't like. Control yourself instead of those around you. There is no need for anything further, IMO. If that upsets you, so be it. If I had not been doing that, believe me there would be hell to pay.

When is the last time you actually saw some decent music come out of a BS pol. thread?

I ought've known it would be pointless to try to suggest something to a bunch of folks who don't know, or remember, what it was like when creativity was the coin of the realm.

What Jeri said times ten. My last posting to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 06:14 PM

I ought've known it would be pointless to try to suggest something to a bunch of folks who don't know, or remember, what it was like when creativity was the coin of the realm.

And that is your real problem. Times move on and you want them to standstill. This is no longer your private chatroom. Your opinions are not worth what they once were maybe, because it takes more than longevity to impress.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 07:45 PM

In case you have forgotten, katlaughing, I was part of the Mudcat when creativity was the coin of the realm. I remember when you got here.

I would have thought a person who is a writer would understand the creative process better. I am not sure where you draw yours from, but mine often comes out of discussion of events, witness of how people react, etc. I don't want to get into a big long discussion of this. It is already starting to drift.

If you will look at the thread title punctuation, you will note that you put an exclamation point on it. I think a writer understands that those marks lend context to me. You seem to indicate forcefully that you think we need this. I am indicating forcefully that we do not. There is no need for further division of the discussions. A pretty good argument can be made we didn't need the first one.

Jeri, I understood you perfectly. Apparently you didn't understand me. I don't have any problem with the "filter" concept you are suggesting. That would be fine, and leave it up to the individual. Were I a codewriter, I wouldn't bother because the same thing can be done by simply scanning the threads, but it sure wouldn't bother me to see it. I was responding to kat.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 08:08 PM

Sadly, creativity is no longer encouraged.

Control over other posters is the only thing now thought to be important and the one thing that is now encouraged by the example set - are personal judgements and complaints about the worth of other posters and what they may choose to post. Not matter how pointless and counter-productive this course has proved itself to be.

Perhaps it is time for a better example to be set on our forum by those who would feel themselves qualified to impose their judgement upon others and those who feel themselves above judgement and respond to any form of criticism with abusive personal attacks, name-calling, imposed censorship and personally motivated and selective restrictions.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: GUEST,former member
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 09:17 PM

suggestion=feeding frenzy=the New Mudcat-bah-humbug

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:09 PM

I've got a better solution: Why don't all the people who want to discuss politics find a political web site and join the discussions there?

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: GUEST,Wilfred Pennifere
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:33 PM

I have an even better solution. I should be appointed World Ombudsman without further delay. Under my astute and completely impartial guidance all will soon be well. Political strife and social injustice will be only a memory. Then I will have achieved my life's purpose and be able to settle down in a charming little place in the Cotswold's with a lovely wife and produce several lovely little children and everything will be simply perfect from then on.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:35 PM

And the people who want to discuss gardening join a gardeners site? And the people who want to discuss films join a film site? And the people who want to discuss the weather join a meterologists site? And the people who want to discuss dogs join a dog site? And jokes, and books, and travel, and cars and cookery and and and and.....


Why should they Jim? This site has a BS site, if it doesn't suit you leave.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:40 PM

Folks there is a lot of ass biting going on here at the moment, lets take one step back. I know I am not the best guy to dish out advice on this subject, but don't want to see friendships among members getting damaged.

I feel the site offers everything to everybody. There are a lot of threads that are of no interest to me, but of great interest to other members. What is the problem with discussing politics ?

I have posted on everything from Butterflies to Irish politics. I have made a lot of great friends through these threads and yes there have been moments I am not proud of, but I was as much to blame as the other guys.

Please keep things as they are and if you don't like the thread you visited, hop off it and go to another.

Insults when your ready folks !

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:47 PM

I wish I had the option to label any thread with a heading of my choice that wouldn't be seen by the rest of the Mudcat at large. That way when I stumbled into a political thread I could label it that way for my own consumption. Or if I found another Shatner thread I could label it "Stupid thread" and move on.There are several topics that I have no interest in at all. It's fine with me if folks wish to go on and on with certain topics - as long as I don't have to waste my time with them.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:48 PM

Well Divis my man, there are some people to whom complaining us an art form, and they like to keep their hand in you see.
I suggest we just let them practice their curmudgeonly trade, while the rest of us enjoy life.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 06:47 PM

Good point Giok.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:07 PM

It doesn't matter, because it isn't going to happen. To ban the political, or the gardening, or whatever would change what Mudcat has been from very nearly the beginning. It has evolved into what it is. Suggestions such as Jeri's are good ones, as they deal with making it more efficient. Suggestions to change the basic nature, or make it unwieldy won't happen.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:09 PM

And there you have it, folks. Goodbye to this thread. Time to close it, no?

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:15 PM

No, Peace, and I apologize for how curt that sounded. I was simply making a statement of my opinion. Sorry about that.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:38 PM

Me too with an apology. Sorry, Mick. No hard feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:42 PM

I run with Mick on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:53 PM

Jeri is one sharp cookie. No question about that.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: ragdall
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 12:17 AM

From: Jeri - PM
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 02:40 PM
....
I think most of the friends and allies we'll ever have in the physical world because of Mudcat have have already been made....

It's sad that you feel that way. It's discouraging for us newer members to be met with attitudes such as yours. Very unfriendly and unwelcoming.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 01:35 AM

Hi, Ragdall-
I think you misunderstand Jeri. I think she's lamenting the fact that the welcoming, open atmosphere of Mudcat has diminished greatly in recent years. It has become well-nigh impossible to carry on an open discussion of many topics, because those topics are dominated by aggressive bullies who spew reams of propaganda about their pet topic, drowning all other discussion in their verbiage and their copy-paste logorrhea. If you'd like to just drop in and state your own opinion or ask a question in one of these discussions, you won't be heard - or if you ARE heard, you'll be scorned and excluded. I feel that way in such discussions myself.

I don't know how to change that - one frequent suggestion has been to ban non-members from non-music discussion and review their posts in the music section before they're made visible to readers.

I don't know what the solution is, but it would be wonderful to find a way to ensure that Mudcat is once again a home for friendly, rich, inclusive discussion.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 02:16 AM

It would be nice to see posters with edit buttons - like Joe Offer, Jeri, Mick and kat actually take some responsibility for the unfriendly and unwelcoming situation they have largely created or at least have been unable to prevent. Instead of continuing to judge the worth of and blaming everyone else.

The current system - with its anonymous volunteers, is just concerned with attempts to find ways control what posters choose to post - when all that can be done are futile and clumsy measures after any damage may have be done. The only way to influence posters is by setting a positive example for others to follow.

If the current example set by those who would feel themselves qualified to imposre their judgement on other posters appears unfriendly, judgmental and divisive - it is because it is. Is it really any surprise that newer posters will only follow such an example?

If the current system has failed by the admission of those who operate it and they admit that they do not know what the solution is -What is going to be done to correct this?   

Perhaps instead of judging and telling our forum what they will allow and what they are going to get - our guardians can start to listen to what our forum wants or they can return to trying to influence our forum by setting a positive example as an ordinary poster?

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 03:41 AM

Shambles, you know what I said about "aggressive bullies who spew reams of propaganda about their pet topic, drowning all other discussion in their verbiage and their copy-paste logorrhea"?
Well, you're one of those.

You are the one individual who monopolizes all discussion of Mudcat policy, preventing the rest of us from conducting a reasonable discussion. Others dominate the Iraq and Israel and George Bush and Ireland topics, but you've staked out Mudcat editing and policy as your personal turf.

Your posts are rarely deleted - and then, only if they are exact duplicates of other messages you have posted; or perhaps you may have posted in one or two threads that were deleted when they became a brawl. But the TRUTH is that your "complaints" are distortions and deceptions.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 03:47 AM

In that case Joe could you please delete his previous post, as it is a repeat of most of his other posts?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 04:00 AM

No, Giok, this is something new - Shambles has admitted, despite his protestations to the contrary, that he knows names of at least four of the volunteer editors at Mudcat - and he's named the four most active editors. He could probably name a good number of others, if he were honest about it.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:51 AM

You are the one individual who monopolizes all discussion of Mudcat policy, preventing the rest of us from conducting a reasonable discussion.

Again this sounds very noble but can it be explained exactly how an individual posting to threads prevents any other poster from contributing or can prevent a reasonable discussion from taking place.

However, it must be becoming pretty obvious to our forum how one individual imposing their judgement and silently deleting moderatly expressed views and closing threads IS ACTIVELY preventing reasonable discussion.

I suggest that it is the only purpose this imposed censorship (and the increasingly transparent excuses given to justify it) serves.

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 06:04 AM

Closed threads and deleted posts

And this thread is closed, too. We allow only one Shambles-Dominated thread at a time. If we don't control him, Shambles tends to post the same thing in five threads, all at the same time.
-Joe Offer-

I only see one person making this attempt to control and restrict what this one invividual poster chooses to post.

Who exactly does this 'we' now comprise of?

Subject: RE: BS: A non-political BS section, please?!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 06:23 AM

Hee hee, predictable Joe, you've got to admit it was predictable. If someone re-uses 7/8 year old quotes from Max's posts, he's obviously going to miss his own personal and more recent thread.
G.