german marches

Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:48 PM

Wolfgang: That is an interesting story; thank you so much.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:08 PM

Great band arrangement it ain't, but here is "Under the Double Eagle" for dulcimer Eagle
Now let's all get out our kazoos!

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Lanfranc
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:55 PM

Looking for information on the sail training ship "Eagle" nee "Horst Wessel", I came across a site that postulated that the tune of the marching song was related to that used for the hymn "How Great Thou Art"!

Hmmmm!

Alan

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:44 AM

Dicho, thanks for the link to "Under the Double Eagle". I appreciate the music sheet, but the sounds! This is not a funeral march, but written for the usual cadence of 114 steps per minute, and should be played faster.
The term "Double Eagle" is widely used for the Imperial Eagle which really is a "Double Headed Eagle".

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:44 PM

In all the old Hopalong Cassidy books, the "double eagle" was a $20 gold coin. Again, the Double Eagle was the symbol of the Austro-Hungarian, not the German Empire. Lots of old German songs refer to Austrian soldiers as "the Croats."

In the United States, the "Under the Double Eagle" was usually played a whole lot faster than 114 steps per minute, because it was regarded primarily as a virtuoso piece for guitar flat-pickers. Those old guys would practice and practice to see who could be the fastest, and the fanciest, picking it.

Wilfried: Thank you for pointing out what an ugly song Maruschka, or at least the common version, is. I think I must be a bit stupid about noticing things like that. A German student sang it to me when I was at Marburg, and in retrospect I think he was trying to get my goat. It didn't work; I asked for more songs, which he refused to sing.

Lanfranc: I think someone misled you. This is "How Great Thou Art." It does not sound at all like the Horst Wessel Song.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: The Walrus
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 09:01 PM

Wilfred,

".... I appreciate the music sheet, but the sounds! This is not a funeral march, but written for the usual cadence of 114 steps per minute, and should be played faster...."

114 paces per min might be usual now, but when was "Under the Double Eagle" written? Remember that before the 1850s, most armies moved at nearer to 80 paces per min (and with a stiffer motion, on the ball of the foot, in what has been described as a "half goose-step[1])which is why French Napoleonic marches sound so odd when played for "modern" march pasts (except when used by the Legion, who STILL march at 80 ppm).

Regards

Tom

[1] Even as late as 1914, recruits to the British army were initially trained at the "Slow march" pace and in this kind of step.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM

Toadfrog, the Double Headed Eagle was the symbol of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (I. Reich). After it was dissolved, it was preserved in the Austrian Empire (the first emperor of which was also the last emperor of the I. Reich.)
The II. Reich under the Prussan kings flew the Prussian eagle (one headed, black on white) with an additional shield.
Afterwards (before and after the III. Reich) the Republic returned to the old German eagle (black, red fangs, on gold)which was used for the first centuries of the I. Reich. Interesting that the President of the German Federal Republic flies a pennant which is the same as that of the old German kings (and Roman emperors), with a red border, as it is preserved in King Henry's VI. coat of arms in an old collection of medieval singers.

Walrus, the slow step was abandoned in Germany in the last century; it is only remembered in some old soldier songs.
If the marches are played to the slow step (65 steps p/m at the beginning of the 19th century), the marches are played alla breve. A survival of this usage is preserved in the march "Present arms", when our Guard Bataillon presents arms and the Chancellor with his ceremonial guest is walking along the front in a slow step (sometimes on TV) and the band is tooting fast.
In addition to the slow step not only the Germans, but other armies, too, had the quick step for attacks or forced marches.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 12:47 AM

Wilfried: That is interesting. When was the double eagle adopted? I believe it was Maximilian who first adopted the predicate "deutscher Nation" to designate the Empire, which was then at one of its many low points. I had always assumed that the point of the double eagle was to point up the dual nature of the Austro-Hungarian ("k. u. k") monarchy, which would suggest that it was adopted after 1848.

Very likely I am mistaken; when was it adopted.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: MudGuard
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 11:21 AM

If the double headed eagle were a symbol for the double monarchy, Austria should now have a headless eagle ... ;-)

Infos about the Austrian coat of arms (and many other coats of arms) can be found at http://www.ngw.nl/index.htm (for Austria, select Austria on the left panel).

Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 04:37 PM

Well, Mudguard, your site says:

"Already in 1325 the eagle was added as the supporter behind the shield. The eagle was the Imperial Eagle as the Dukes of Austria, from the Habsburg dynasty,were Kings (and Emperors) of the Holy Roman Empire at the time. Ever since the Habsburg family has used the eagle, first one-headed, later two-headed as the main supporter."

So, that tells us that initially, the eagle had only one head. It does not say where the other head came from, or when.

I don't know that much about mediaeval history, but if the Habsburgs were Emperors as early as 1325, they must have been out of office for a substantial amount of time in the 15th century.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 07:27 PM

I was under the impression that the double headed eagle was a symbol of the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire. The symbol may still be seen today in countries which follow orthodox christianity: Russia, Serbia etc.

Could the second head of the Habsberg eagle have been adopted in imitation of the great influential empire of Byzantium which was much advanced technologically over the rest of Europe at the time (i.e. as a form of flattery) - or adopted following Austria's increased importance as guardian of Europe against the Turks/Ottoman Empire especially following the fall of Constantinnople in 1453 (i.e. continuing the fight under the same symbol)?

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 08:59 AM

Steve, you're right with the adoption of the double headed eagle from Byzantium. My guess: the double eagle was adopted when a Byzantine princess was married to a German king. Using a coat of arms in a composite one is to show ownership or a claim thereto.
My native town was the first community which sealed with the double eagle in the 14th century.
Mudguard, the double eagle is not a supporter of a shield, but it is the main part of the coat of arms. To the Imperial Eagle of Germany the Habsburg family added their own shield (red-silver-red) on its heart to show who reigns the Empire. My native town added its colours silver-black to the Imperial eagle to show that it was an immediate Imperial town, subject only to the Emperor with Imperial privileges.
First German king and emperor of the house of Habsburg was Rudolf (1273-1347),Albrecht I (1298-1308), Frederick the Beautiful of Austria (1314-1330), then the house of Habsburg reigned the Holy Roman Empire from 1438 to 1740 and from 1745 to its end in 1806.
Let me put stress on the note that the double eagle has nothing to do with Austria and Hungaria, but that is a symbol much older.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: MudGuard
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:03 AM

Wilfried, I did not say the eagle is a supporter, I just linked to a page about coat of arms. I did not check the accuracy of the information on that page.

MudGuard/Andreas