Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype

Subject: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:04 AM

In another thread elsewhere - the subject of Aran sweaters as a sort of folk stereotype was brought up along with fingers in the the ear.

I have twelve Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem LP records and they appear in Aran sweaters in 8 and white shirts in the other four. So whilst it seems like they always wore them, not on record covers they didn't. And yet when describing "folk fundamentalists" this image persists. I don't know of anyone else who wore them.

No folk singer EVER put their finger in their ear - it ignores a basic rule of health and hygiene, nothing should ever go in the ear larger than an elbow. Singers cup their hand behind their ear to hear themselves better. Lots of singers do it. Not just folk singers.

Why does these stereotypes persist? Even to the extent that people on Mudcat use them?

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:18 AM

SMALLER than an elbow I hope you meant?

It's been said before, and no doubt it will be said again, but placing the heel of your hand on your jawbone while cupping the nearest ear, provides a sort of induction which helps keep you in tune, it's especially handy [handy, get it?] when singing in a group.

Giok

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:18 AM

Louis Killen has been known to wear an Arran sweater, I still do in the cold weather.

eric

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:25 AM

Stereotypes make people feel comfortable. Those who decry the traditional folk scene (whatever that may be!) feel happy in the knowledge that all the old folkies have beards (even the women), wear Aran pullovers and sing down their noses. It helps them believe that they have reason to dislike them. On a serious note it is a microcosm of all Jews being money lenders, all Moslems being suicide bombers and all black men being rapists. It gives the ignorant an excuse to hate them. I really do dislike the people who perpetuate these myths.

Getting back to the point, which I an sure should be far more light than my last ramblings, what about the people who sing on radio and TV though? They are all talentless pretty boys and girls who would know a good tune if it came up and bit them on the bum. Anyone in public eye must be nothing more than a dumb bimbo musn't they?

:D

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Mo the caller
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:28 AM

What about the pewter tankards?

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:32 AM

On a serious note it is a microcosm of all Jews being money lenders, all Moslems being suicide bombers and all black men being rapists. It gives the ignorant an excuse to hate them. I really do dislike the people who perpetuate these myths.

Quite right Dave.

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:37 AM

I love my Aran sweater. It's warm and comfortable and doesn't go with anything that well so I don't have to make an effort matching it with things. Sticking you finger in your ear does work but so, apparently do other tricks and I've only seen someone do it once that I remember and they weren't even singing folk.

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Alec
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:43 AM

I have owned,but do not currently own,more than one Arran sweater.
I do own a pewter tankard which was a 21st birthday present which has never been used.
I have never placed a finger in my ear whilst singing.
Stereotyping is an activity indulged in by people who do not fully comprehend but wish to create the impression that they do.
This is not infrequently done for reasons already outlined by Dave Polshaw and has little,if anything,to do with real life.
It was,after all,a man who is well thought of by many lovers of Folk music who made the assertion:Categorise me,to deny me.
I think we all know what that feels like.

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:49 AM

I did mean smaller of course - sorry.

Dave

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Scoville
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:56 AM

I've never even SEEN a picture of someone with a finger in the ear while singing. What the Hell was that supposed to accomplish?

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:02 AM

People are well advised to stick their fingers in both ears if I'm about to sing... I can be rather loud!

I used to have a couple of Arran jumpers, but that was a long time ago. Unfortunately I must admit to having a beard and  I wear socks with sandals...

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:04 AM

I suspect some people did put their own fingers in their ears - so that they couldn't hear how bad they were. I am ok with this because when people who are a bit bad (PWAABB)sing, lots of other people think - well I could do better than that.

I would like to think that when I sang like PWAABBs it helped Martin Carthy to continue to develop as quite a good singer.

We all do what we can.

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:06 AM

I can't get my elbow in my ear...It's a physical impossiblity...unless you're Dralion from the Cirque du Soleil..


THIRD video down:

ELBOWS IN EARS AND...A FEW OTHER PLACES TOO! :0)


Does this mean he's a folk singer? If it does, I think his 'look' could liven up Folk Clubs no end!!

Innocent Smiley :0)


I think 'arran sweaters' is a polite way of saying 'those grumpy ol' buggers who moan at anyone who's not part of their club'

Could be wrong though! ;0)


Lizzie

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:10 AM

And we all sing with our eyes tightly shut....

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:13 AM

Aah... that's 'cos the words are tattooed on the inside of our eyelids!

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:13 AM

Talking about perpetuating a myth, it's

ARAN

............................not................................


...........................ARRAN........................


Giok

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:14 AM

I think 'arran sweaters' is a polite way of saying 'those grumpy ol' buggers who moan at anyone who's not part of their club'

Yes, you're right, Lizzie. It's become a shorthand term for the old stereotypical traddie, just as 'anorak' is shorthand for an obsessive person, immersed in trivial details about their hobby or interest (e.g. philately, trainspotting, or folk music - ooerr!) :-)

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:20 AM

First page when googling for Ewan MacColl pictures"

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:26 AM

Okay, he's got the beard, the eyes closed, the finger suspiciously earward - but where's the Ar[r]an sweater?

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:29 AM

Sorry to be a party pooper, Giok, but BOTH spellings are correct - there are two locations, one Irish (The Aran Islands are located at the mouth of Galway on the west coast of Ireland) and one Scottish (the Isle of Arran which is the largest island in the Firth Of Clyde) - the Irish one is spelt 'Aran', and the Scottish one is spelt 'Arran' - and both lent their names to uncannily similar woollen jumpers.

Shame on you as a Scot!!

;o)

Admittedly, the tendency is to use the 'Aran' spelling - but not because 'Arran' is wrong!

Here!

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:32 AM

I would say that anyone who unnecessarily invokes McColl invokes much wrath ......................

................ but on this occasion, whilst the tongue may be in the cheek, the fingers are behind the ear!

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:55 AM

Ooh LOOK!

I just googled 'jokes about Arran sweaters' ....and I got THIS!!

Seth Lakeman & Arran Sweaters

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Flash Company
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:03 AM

A quantity surveyor in the Public Bar did sit,
He wore an aran Sweater (the great big chunky knit!)
He supped a nervous pint of ale because he knew e'er long
He had to sing the Folk Club in the Public Bar a song,
Hi me roo collapsem roarem,
Hi me roo fa lay oh
Fol dol riddle diddle diddle iddle ay do
Quantity surveyo!

Not guilty! Richard Stilgoe.

FC

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM

Well Bernard I must admit you had me flummoxed, but when I clicked on the links on the page you point out, it took me straight to Aran sweaters made in Ireland. The only thing I can find is this from the Scots Isle of Arran, and that seems to feature designs by a named person on said island.
I shall keep looking, but as a child I spent holidays on the Isle of Arran, and I never yet saw an Arran sweater in the sense of a traditional design, as per the Aran sweater of which we scoff.
Giok

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:08 AM

Lizzie, perhaps he is waring a short sleeved, dark Aran with a very low profile?

But:

"Folk music has had a bad rap over the years, in the past any mention of the genre would elicit sniggering jokes about men with beards wearing Arran sweaters. But this is set to change, the increasing popularity of folk-influenced musicians such as KT Tunstall and David Gray has shown that folk doesn't have to be uncool."

This from the site mentioned by Lizzie. It's a great relief to know that we don't have to wear that uniform any longer. Where would we be without the music press?

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:22 AM

Uncool? UNCOOL? You mean, my Ar[r]an sweater, beard (not to mention closed eyes and finger in ear) just don't cut it with the kids these days? How 'bout the pipe and tweed cap - I suppose they're out too ... ? No wonder the gigs have been drying up these last thirty years ...

Fashion advice welcomed.

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:28 AM

<>

Follow Seth and Show of Hands...and you'll not go far wrong I reckon! ;0)

Or as Cara Dillon would sing.."Black is the colour of....."

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:29 AM

Aye, the pipe used to be as obligatory as the tankard, the beard, the sweater, the sandals and the pink polystyrene dummy hand clipped onto the side of the head. I suppose the new anti-smoking laws will put a stop to that particular 'avenue of pleasure' (to quote Basil Fawlty).

AFAIR, most of these people didn't actually smoke the pipe, they just used to have it as a prop like the other items above. But I wonder if that will count with the Smoke Police - maybe having the equipment will count just as badly as if you are smoking with it?

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: leeneia
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:46 AM

I belong to a church choir to which anyone can belong, either singer or instrumentalist. I can amble in and find myself competing with piano, organ, French horn, drums, guitars, clarinet, bad singers and brash singers. One day I realized that I had no idea what sound was coming out of my own mouth. So I cupped my hand over my ear (the ear not facing the congregation), and discovered that I could indeed hear myself that way.

(Our director does draw the line somewhere. She says she will never tolerate a trap set.)

The people who ridicule the hand-behind-the-ear thing probably don't make music enough to realize what it's for. Either that, or they're so tone deaf they can't conceive of what the problem might be.

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:52 AM

great name for a punk folk rocker....Aron Sweaters, or if he was a German blues singer........ Aron Schwetters!

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 11:50 AM

I have an aran sweater I bought in Dingle, made by Mrs Mary Kennedy. I haven't seen it in years, but I'm sure its in a box somewhere. Except for skiing, I'm just not a sweater guy because they make me overheat. I suppose if I were a folk-singing Irish fisherman in my wind and rain-swept curragh, it might be just perfect, but the thought of donning one to take the stage and perform in Boston is fairly daunting.
My ex-wife told me a rather grim story about aran sweaters. She said each was woven in an individual pattern so that the woman could identify the body of her if he was drowned. "Here, Michael, see how I've woven ye this knot pattern in yer jumper the better to know ye when ye drown. And I've even woven a wee handle on the back, the better to fish ye out of the drink with."

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 11:57 AM

EJ..I don't want to disappoint you....but....

The story of the Aran/Arran Sweater

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 12:04 PM

"In another thread elsewhere - the subject of Aran sweaters as a sort of folk stereotype"

I saw that thread to.
Prior to the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem, folk songs were being kept alive by tenors in penguin suits. "The Rose of Tralee" was then, what "Danny Boy" came to be.
The Aran knits were as much of a statement as the Beatle haircuts.
A very clever piece of marketing, I'd say.
Trouble is, I wouldn't be caught dead in an Aran jumper now and I love them.

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 12:05 PM

Or Sweatie Aron.....

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 12:11 PM

I always thought that if you sing wearing an Arran sweater, that it was compulsory that you also sing with your arms akimbo.

Some of these stereotypes are humorous, and noit mean-spirited like all blacks being rapists. More on the order of beatniks wearing berets.

And mimes wearing black and white horizontally striped tank tops.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 12:14 PM

On the other hand, I can't see why there couldn't have been instances of drowned men being identified by their sweaters, as by other articles of clothing - moreso, really, as the sweater might be one of the articles of clothing more likely to be still on the body, as well as being one of the more familiar, recognizable items.

I hadn't realized that the sweater as a fashion-item was associated with the Kennedys - I always credited/blamed the Clancys, as much as I had ever thought about the matter. Which is extremely little. Might've known, anyway.

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 12:17 PM

(Note to JimLad: you can keep my tweed cap after all - and if you "borrowed" my pipe as well, you can keep it too).

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 12:58 PM

It's a Bunnet, ya eejit! Real men don't wear caps. (and what will I do with your pipe?)
Cheers
Anonymous

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 01:01 PM

Trouble is, I wouldn't be caught dead in an Aran jumper now and I love them

What's this, a fashion-conscious folkie? Shame on you Jim Lad, you'll bring us into disrepute :-)

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 01:08 PM

Well it's bad enough that The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem are singing all my songs but when they start dressing like me too, I have to draw the line.

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 01:13 PM

A "bunnet"?! Oh, my, Jim - surely you've been on this side of the water long enough to know that only babies and old ladies wear bonnets! If you're going to call it a bonnet, I'll just have to take it back after all! And I won't expect any trouble from a man wears a "bonnet"!

So put that in my pipe and smoke it!


yours feistily,
mslf

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 01:21 PM

I have just had a quick Google, but I can't find a piccie, but I'm sure I remember The Corries, and the late lamented Paddy Bell wearing Aran sweaters!
Giok

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Greg B
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 01:21 PM

Perhaps Ewan wore his sweater inside, next to the skin.

It would explain his reputation for being cranky.

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 01:22 PM

must have been hell when you were a fisherman.

what sort of a fashion statement will I make today - the fishermans smock with espadrilles.......or the arran sweater with a sou'wester hat - and are the thigh high boots too much of a giveaway?

if you're a jolly fisherlad, its a gay experience.

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 01:36 PM

Part of 'The Folker' (Fred Wedlock)

I only sing traditional with me finger in me ear
coz half the tripe I'm singing
I just can't stand to hear
It's a load of cobb-lie-arrrrs
Bar after bar
To the rhytm of an off key Japenese one-string thatched guitar
Yamaha
Yamaha-ha-ha-ha-ha

In Matty Groves I clean forgot the forty second verse
So I sang the twenty-seventh
Twice as loud and in reverse
And no-one noticed
I laughed for hours
Till the tears ran down me trouser leg
And I thought I'd wet me drawers
Lie-lie-lie-lie-lie &etc

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 02:11 PM

Well, Lizzie, while I repeated the grim drowning identification story, I can't say as I ever believed it. I'm sure the stitching IS symbolic, and that women DID weave distinctive designs for their men. I'm think it quite probable a drowning victim or two WERE recognized by their sweater weave, but a young wife weaving a sweater for this purpose is just too morbid to be true. Thanks for the Aran sweater article... very interesting!

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 03:13 PM

The argument on Wikipedia makes interesting reading.

I am reminded of the landlady of a pub who asked us to do some folk nights, but put up posters referring to "Aaron" sweaters. I don't know if she was expecting a klezmer band.

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 03:16 PM

Was the mention of "Aaron sweaters" supposed to attract or warn customers?

Or did you get free admission if you wore your "Aaron sweater"?

Or were you refused admission if you wore your "Aaron sweater"?

Sign me,
Need to know

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 03:19 PM

ps Did her posters also mention "beerds", and "fingers in eers", and "sox with sandals", and "Pyooter mugs", and "tweed bunnets" and "pips"? And if not, why not?

Subject: RE: Aran Sweaters - Long Lasting Stereotype
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 03:23 PM

Did an Aaron sweater have the frilly bit round the neck cut off?
G.

DARFC