BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:19 AM

"A school, for example, becomes a legitimate military target if soldiers are based there. With hospitals, the situation is more complicated since they are permitted to keep armed guards on their grounds. But immunity from attack can be lost if the people or objects are used to commit acts that are harmful to one side in a conflict."

http://www.crimesofwar.org/a-z-guide/immunity-from-attack/>Crimes of War

So, R Sole, do you condemn Hamas for their war crime of using hospitals and schools for military purposes?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:35 AM

"A school, for example, becomes a legitimate military target if soldiers are based there"
There was never any evidence that soldiers were based in the thousands of schools, hospitals old peoples homes and occupied houses that were razed to the ground in the random slaughter and it was never claimed that there were.
The officials of one home actually informed the Israelis that they were full of elderly patients.
The commander instructed that they should stay were they were - then bombarded the place to rubble.
The Israelis actually launching rockets from the yard of one occupied schools - but fair's fair, the children were only Arabs.
Schools - Human Rights Watch
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:47 AM

There was never any evidence that soldiers were based in the thousands of schools, hospitals old peoples homes and occupied houses that were razed to the ground

That's a blatant lie but that's to be expected from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:58 AM

Schools - Human Rights Watch

You mean that organization in which the person in charge of the Israel file was an avid collector of Nazi memorabilia and frequenter of Nazi chat rooms? Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:06 AM

As we speak, rockets from Hamas and Islamic Jihad continue to be fired on Israel. I have just seen myself with the Prime Minister all kinds of rockets fired by Hamas on to the heads of all of these people and the neighbourhoods where many people are living.

This is quite shocking. And I have seen all the photos and videos and evidence myself.

The United Nations position is clear: We condemn strongly the rocket attacks. These must stop immediately.

We condemn the use of civilian sites – schools, hospitals and other civilian facilities - for military purposes.

No country would accept rockets raining down on its territory – and all countries and parties have an international obligation to protect civilians.

Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, Tel Aviv (Israel), 22 July 2014

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM

R sole, you chose not to quote anything I actually said about "legitimate targets."
You are being dishonest about me. All I ever said on the subject was to explain the Law of Armed Conflict and how it applied. Just facts.

massacres of the Arab people by the Israeli regime.

What massacres of the Arab people by the Israeli regime?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:26 AM

Are you actually dismissing Human Right Watch as a valid source - after you have used it yourself in the past, re. Israel's Blockade of Gaza.
The incident you refer to HERE was spread by pro-Israli bloggers, was related to his family's interest in military nterest and was found to be no more than a Israeli regime generated smear campaign that has also targetted the U.N. and a host of human rights organisations.
It was a deliberate campaign set up by Israel to undermine Human Rights organisations which were critical of Israeli terrorism.   
The last of these stunts was an attempt to close The International Court of Human rights, which would leave the world unable to try any International criminals.
Jom Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:45 AM

This from The Economist, at the time the bloggers campaign was leaked

But even his critics admit that he is not an anti-Semite. And though his reports are generally critical of Israel, his memorabilia hobby doesn't seem to inform his work in any way (though no one but Mr Garlasco can know for sure).
The blogger who broke the story admits as much, arguing that Human Rights Watch "couldn't notice anything wrong with the way [Mr Garlasco] approached the conflict because, well, that's how they all approach the conflict." Perhaps they all collect Nazi memorabilia too, or perhaps it doesn't matter. Therein lies the problem. The controversy, made relevant by Mr Garlasco's critical reports on Israel, seems to have little bearing on the substance of those reports. If we weren't dealing with the touchy subjects of Israel and the second world war, it would almost be like condemning someone for having a foot fetish.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:46 AM

No decent democratic government accuses Israel of massacring Gazans, or anyone else.
Just propaganda Jim. Try not to be so gullible.

Hamas is recognised to be guilty of massacring Jews with their bus bombings and other indiscriminate attacks. Any outrage over that Jim?
Why not Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:54 AM

Hamas not only flagrantly disregarded the
Law of Armed Conflict as a matter of course
as part of its terrorist-army hybrid strategic
concept, but rather it abused the very protections
afforded by the law for military advantage,
putting the civilian population of Gaza at great
risk.
Situating its operational headquarters
in Gaza's main hospital, the entire military
machinery of Hamas was embedded in civilian
locations, private homes and a plethora of
sensitive sites such as medical facilities, mosques
and schools. These included facilities run by
the United Nations in multiple instances, from
which it must be concluded that the relevant
UN agencies are either compromised in their
relationship with Hamas or have temporarily lost
control of the security of their facilities.
Many of Hamas's actions clearly amount to serious
violations of the Law of Armed Conflict.

HIGH LEVEL MILITARY GROUP Oct.2015 AN
ASSESSMENT OF THE 2014 GAZA CONFLICT

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 10:23 AM

So, R Sole, do you condemn Hamas

Its NOT my fault! It all started, Mommie, when Johnnie hit me back!!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 10:52 AM

Hamas not only flagrantly disregarded the Law of Armed Conflict as a matter of course
Destruction of schools, hospitals and occupied homes is adhering to the law of armed conflict of course - as is facilitating the massacre of 3.5 thousand refugees, using chemicals to remove legal occupants of land.... and all the other crimes against humanity carried out by Israel and protected by U.S. vetoes!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:01 AM

Yup- the "HMLG" - a wholly-owned subsidiary of http://www.friendsofisraelinitiative.org/about-wellcome.php

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:12 AM

Jim,
Destruction of schools, hospitals and occupied homes is adhering to the law of armed conflict of course

The are circumstances where it is allowed.
If your enemy commits the war crime of fighting from a civilian area, as Hamas did, and provided that warnings are given and steps taken to minimise civilian casualties, as IDF did, it is allowed.

(I pass no opinion on that r sole, I am just stating what the law says.)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:14 AM

You missed a bit.
"HIGH LEVEL MILITARY GROUP"
"copyright by 'The Friends of Israel Initiative".
The random attacks ta\king place in Israel at present are little different from those carried out by Israeli Freedom Fighters in the 1940s - not a lot of "rules of armed conflict" then, now, or in any guerrilla warfare.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:15 AM

HMLG:

AN ASSESSMENT OF THE 2014 GAZA CONFLICT
General Klaus Dieter Naumann
(Germany) is the
former Chief of Staff of the Bundeswehr, the German
armed forces and served as Chairman of the NATO Military
Committee from 1996 to 1999.

General Vincenzo Camporini
(Italy) is the former
Chief of Defence Staff of Italy. He served as Deputy Chief
of Defence General Staff and President of the Italian Centre
for High Defence Studies before being appointed Chief of
Staff of the Italian Air Force and subsequently Chief of
Defence General Staff.

Lieutenant General David A. Deptula
(United States)
was the principal attack planner for the Desert Storm coalition
air campaign in 1991, served as Director of the Combined
Air Operations Center in Afghanistan and served as the first
Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence, Surveillance and
Reconnaissance (ISR), Headquarters Air Force.

Admiral José María Terán
(Spain) serves in the Office
of Strategic Assessment of the Minister of Defence of
Spain. A former Chief of the Joint Staff and Chief of the
Strategic Analysis Group, he has also served as Director for
Reorganisation of the Spanish Intelligence Service.

Major General Andrew James Molan
(Australia)
served as the Chief of Operations for the Headquarters
Multinational Force in Iraq. He is a former Commander
of the Australian Defence College and has served as Adviser
to the Vice Chief of the Australian Defence Force on Joint
Warfighting Lessons and Concepts.

Lieutenant General Kamal Davar
(India) served as
the first Director General of the Defence Intelligence Agency
of India. A former Director-General, Mechanised Forces
at Army Headquarters, he has held a large number of high
ranking command posts in the Indian Army and served on
the Indian Military Training Team in Iraq.

Brigadier General Alain Lamballe
(France) served
in the General Secretariat for National Defence as head of
the Southeast Asia and Europe sections as well as heading
the Central Liaison Mission for Assistance to Foreign
Forces. He is the former Director of the Department of
Security Cooperation of the OSCE Mission in Bosnia
and Herzegovina.

Colonel Richard Kemp
(United Kingdom) was
Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and has
served in Iraq, the Balkans, South Asia and Northern
Ireland. He has led the international terrorism team at
the UK's Joint Intelligence Committee and served as
chairman of the strategic intelligence group for COBRA,
the UK national crisis management committee.

Colonel Vincent Alcazar
(United States) served as a
fighter pilot in Operations Desert Storm and Southern Watch
as well as various other post 9/11 theatres. He subsequently
served in strategic roles at the Pentagon, the U.S. Defense
Intelligence Agency and at the U.S. embassy, Baghdad, Iraq.

Colonel Eduardo Ramirez
(Colombia) is an
Advisor to the Congress of Colombia who served with the
Colombian National Police from 1987 until 2013. He was
formerly the Chief of Security Staff for President Uribe
of Colombia, as well as Chief of Section at the Judicial
and Criminal Directory of the National Police.
Ambassador Pierre-Richard Prosper

(United States)
was Ambassador-at-large in charge of the US Secretary of
State's Office of War Crimes Issues. A former Presidential
envoy and adviser to the National Security Council he was
previously a war crimes prosecutor for the United Nations
International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.

Rafael L. Bardají
is the Executive Director of the
Friends of Israel Initiative and National Security Advisor to
Former President, José María Aznar. He formerly served in
the Government of Spain as the National Security Adviser
and in leadership positions in the Ministry of Defence.

Davis Lewin
is the Rapporteur of the High Level Military
Group. He is the Deputy Director and Head of Policy and
Research at The Henry Jackson Society, a London based
Foreign and Defence Policy think tank.

Joseph Raskas
is a Research Assistant for The Friends of
Israel Initiative and a Fellow at The Public Interest Fellowship.


The High Level Military Group was formed in early
2015 with a mandate to examine Israel's conduct of
the 2014 Gaza Conflict, in the context of a larger
project seeking to address the implications for
Western warfare of fighting enemies who disregard
the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) but exploit our
own nations' adherence to LOAC for their gain.
HLMG members have a wealth of experience at the
very highest operational and policy levels as regards
the conduct of warfare and its attendant policies.
Our purpose is to add a professional military and
legal element to this debate, which at times has been
ill-informed and politicised, and which is of vital
importance to our own armies and alliance partners.

The HLMG had unprecedented access to Israel's
decision makers, from the Prime Minister and
Defence Minister, through the military top-
level leadership to individual unit commanders
and soldiers as well as civilians affected by the
fighting.   Former officials who have retired since
the conflict took place were also made available.
The HLMG was able to extensively examine all
pertinent aspects of Israel's conduct, as well as the
country's political, military and legal structures.
Israel's government and military offered a level of
cooperation in seeking to illuminate their actions
that is highly unusual in such a context, offering
open, clear responses to an examination that went
far beyond what our own countries would expect
to have to reveal even to allied militaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:16 AM

Greg, please say which of their statements is factually incorrect, bearing in mind the statement of Ban Ki-Moon,

"As we speak, rockets from Hamas and Islamic Jihad continue to be fired on Israel. I have just seen myself with the Prime Minister all kinds of rockets fired by Hamas on to the heads of all of these people and the neighbourhoods where many people are living.

This is quite shocking. And I have seen all the photos and videos and evidence myself.

The United Nations position is clear: We condemn strongly the rocket attacks. These must stop immediately.

We condemn the use of civilian sites – schools, hospitals and other civilian facilities - for military purposes.

No country would accept rockets raining down on its territory – and all countries and parties have an international obligation to protect civilians."

Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, Tel Aviv (Israel), 22 July 2014

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:18 AM

Lawfare, the abuse of international norms and procedures and the judicialisation of international institutions to attain strategic goals that cannot be achieved by political and military means, has become a common feature in modern conflicts. It has evolved into a new weapon in the hands of our enemies seeking to constrain and limit the ability of Western armies to pursue our national security interests.

The High Level Military Group (HLMG) was formed in early 2015 with a mandate to address the implications for Western warfare of fighting enemies who disregard the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) but exploit our own nations' adherence to LOAC for their gain.
HLMG members discussing the 2014 Gaza Conflict with an IDF soldier on a field visit in southern Israel

HLMG members have a wealth of experience at the very highest operational and policy levels as regards the conduct of warfare and its attendant policies.

Our purpose is to add a professional military and legal element to debates about warfare in the 21st Century, which at times have been ill-informed and politicised, and which are of vital importance to our own armies and alliance partners.

Our work will cover an initial assessment of the 2014 Gaza Conflict, a comparative study examining the conduct of operations by democratic militaries against non-state enemies who do not abide by LOAC, and a final report setting out the challenges and policy prescriptions for the current era of warfare.

http://www.high-level-military-group.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:27 AM

For the word "politicized" in the post of 17 Jan 16 - 11:18 AM read UN, UNWRA, HRW, AI, CCFD, AFPS etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:27 AM

Greg, can you substantiate,
"HIGH LEVEL MILITARY GROUP" "copyright by 'The Friends of Israel Initiative"?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:46 AM

Can you read, Keith? If so, DO so.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:00 PM

I wouldn't even bother Keith, most people are familiar with their tactics by now, if they can't refute the content they try to discredit the messenger and if there is a Jew included....well, that just seals it for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:07 PM

Neither of you have acknowledged that terror attacks on hospitals schools and homes were an everyday occurrence in the lives of Gazans in 2014

There were no terror attacks on hospitals and homes, any targeting of them was because they were being used for military purposes which is permitted under the Law of Armed Conflict. Of course mistakes do happen in the fog of war and these have been acknowledged.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:09 PM

Mr Hertford.
Excuse me.
It is never allowed.
Not by people who call themselves human.

The bombing of schools and hospitals is only ever allowed by those bombing them for their own aims.

Disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:55 PM

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:00 PM

"copyright by 'The Friends of Israel Initiative"

Which means that the organization commissioned the study and owns the rights to the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:01 PM

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

Amnesty
Reports on the 2015 conflict by organisations not commissioned by Friends of Israel

Again

RTE

BBC

Haaretz

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:02 PM

Excuse me.
It is never allowed.

Oh RSole, do keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:04 PM

"Which means that the organization commissioned the study and owns the rights to the report."
Quite!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:11 PM

So do you think that somehow comprises the findings of the panel of highly qualified military experts? Is that what you are trying to imply here?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:17 PM

"So do you think that somehow comprises the findings of the panel of highly qualified military experts? "
"experts" are like lawyers - you gets what you pays for.
Much prefer the independent ones from Amnesty (which you are refusing to respond to)- just as expert, but without an agenda.
Now we'll enter into a "lawyers who sell their books in real gunshops and were born five days ago" battle - can't wait!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:31 PM

You don't accept the findings of highly qualified military people on matters of war and imply that they are lying because they were presumably commissioned by Israelis yet you accept the reports of highly politicized NGOs who are funded by interest groups and are not military experts. That says a lot about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:41 PM

R sole, I do not defend the law, I merely explained it for the benefit of those ignorant of it.

It should be understood that the Law Of Armed Conflict is the work of the finest minds of the 20th century to humanise conflict, and is fully endorsed by the ICRC.

I am sure that an r sole like you could have come up with something much better, but until you do, it is the best we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:48 PM

The months-long investigation into the war by the High Level Military Group (HLMG), made up of retired generals and defense officials from nine countries, concluded that Israel not only abided by the laws of armed conflict, but far surpassed their requirements.

Israel's "knock on the roof" technique, telephone calls and leaflets dropped warning non-combatants to leave the area of impending attacks and missions canceled due to possible civilian casualties represented a far higher level of restraint than other Western armies, the report concluded.

The IDF standard, explained one HLMG author, Richard Kemp (former commander of British forces in Afghanistan), would be "a hindrance to Western military expediency".

The report also concluded that much Western media commentary on the 2014 war included "stark, unwarranted condemnations of the IDF's conduct that do not accord with our own examination".

HLMG blamed the "vast majority of civilian casualties" on Hamas, who "instituted a deliberate policy to cause as many Palestinian civilian deaths as possible in order to wage a PR war against Israel." Such policies, largely ignored by the British media, included the systematic use of human shields "to avert strikes on its military infrastructure embedded in urban Gaza"

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 02:48 PM

"High Level Military Group (HLMG), made up of retired generals and defense officials from nine countries,"
Just the people to consult about the rights and wrongs of bombing civilians
General Klaus Dieter Naumann (NATO)
Deputy Chief
of Defence General Staff and President of the Italian Centre for High Defence Studies
was the principal attack planner for the Desert Storm coalition
air campaign in 1991
A former Chief of the Joint Staff and Chief of the
Strategic Analysis Group, he has also served as Director for
Reorganisation of the Spanish Intelligence Service.

Every single one of these "experts" are full time establishment military, many associated with a war which locks up terrorist "suspects" and leaves them untried, and locked up in Cuba year after year" - bit like asking General Haig's opinion on the rights and wrongs of WW1, doncha think Keith.
The laws ofd armed conflict (or humanity, for most of us Keith) does not allow for the blitzing of schools and hospitals on the unproven claims that they house terrorists, the use of anti-persdoell and chemical weapons in occupied areas and the mass destruction of homes, in some cases, with the occupants still in them.
I see othing here of the Israeli death squads who went around picking off survivors after their homes were destroyed or an explanation of why there were so many civilian deaths and casualties - missed those bits, did they.
I don't need "experts to tell me such behaviour is wrong, evil, inhuman and constitute Crimes against humanity - my upbringing tells me they are, and if I ever doubted that, I have the reports of human rights bodies to fall back on - never been an issue with you, have they Keith - leftie, bleeding hearts or some such?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:14 PM

Just the people to consult about the rights and wrongs of bombing civilians

Yes. Exactly the people to consult on legal and illegal warfare.

You can wail that the Law of Armed Conflict is unfair to terrorist war criminals, but it remains the best set of rules humanity has ever managed to create to reduce the inhumanity of war.

Extremists can not be allowed to win just because they themselves care nothing for the deaths of civilians, cynically hiding behind them and then exploiting their suffering which they are entirely responsible for.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:42 PM

From Al Jazeera

"The areas targeted by the Russian air strikes on Saturday were mostly residential areas and not for ISIL," Ghareb al-Omawi, a media activist from the Sound and Picture group, told Al Jazeera.

"Two hospitals were also hit in the air strikes in addition to public places. Several people were also injured and have been taken to hospitals in the suburbs."

"Activists say children among more than 40 killed in ISIL stronghold, a day after reports of massacre in Deir Az Zor."

How about them Russkies, eh comrades!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Tammet
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 02:04 AM

Meanwhile, back to a discussion of this new gang of Jewish terrorists..... {click} 

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 02:28 AM

I don't drop in too often but it seems worth it, anything to brighten up my day.

Skimming through, am I dreaming or is Keith advocating a set of rules for armed conflict as employing some of the best minds?

Call me thick, but the only minds worth mentioning would be those trying to avoid such things in the first place?

Even if you take it at face value, nobody seems to have given a copy to either Israeli or Palestinian militants. Neither suicide bombers in crowded buses or soldiers aiming machine guns at stone throwing children come under rules by any sane mind. There again, neither do any of the tactics employed in an adjecant thread discussing 100 years ago. Yet the same mindset on this thread is evident on that one. Oh, I get it now....

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:36 AM

"Yes. Exactly the people to consult on legal and illegal warfare."
Commissioned by the friends of Israel - any enquiry into massacres or war crimes must be totally devoid of all prejudicial influence ' "Friends of Israel" says it all.
We've been here before - the Israeli have now established the practice of enquiring into their own war crimes and finding themselves not guilty, as they did over their role in the Sabra/Shatila massacre - the independent Redmond Enquiry find them guilty of engineering a massacre of 3,500 refugees, their own Kahan absolves them.
Now the world (including those from within Israel) calls for an enquiry into what happened in Gaza and suggests that Israel is answerable to war crimes
'Friends of Israel' commission random military men who absolve Israel.
Israel continues to call for the closure of the International Criminal Court.
Problem solved.

Haaretz
ICC Opens Initial Probe Into Possible War Crimes in Palestinian Territories
Step could lead to charges against Israeli and Palestinian officials; FM Lieberman calls to dismantle International Criminal Court.

Haaretz again
Netanyahu Rejects ICC's 'Preposterous' Inquiry Into Possible War Crimes
'To what depth of absurdity has the tribunal sunk?' PM asks, adding that decision to probe possible war crimes in Palestinian territories runs contrary to reasons for which the tribunal was created.
Let's see, shall we?

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 08:02 AM

"Friends of Israel" says it all.

The HLMG had unprecedented access to Israel's
decision makers, from the Prime Minister and
Defence Minister, through the military top-
level leadership to individual unit commanders
and soldiers as well as civilians affected by the
fighting.   Former officials who have retired since
the conflict took place were also made available.
The HLMG was able to extensively examine all
pertinent aspects of Israel's conduct, as well as the
country's political, military and legal structures.
Israel's government and military offered a level of
cooperation in seeking to illuminate their actions
that is highly unusual in such a context, offering
open, clear responses to an examination that went
far beyond what our own countries would expect
to have to reveal even to allied militaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 05:56 PM

"The HLMG had unprecedented access to Israel's decision makers, from the Prime Minister and Defence Minister, through the military top-level leadership to individual unit commanders and soldiers as well as civilians affected by the fighting."
Read this report through – with all its implications.
All those examples of who was interviewed are Israeli's - no Palestinian victims – not at all (it would be virtually impossible to interview the many thousands made homeless who actually bore the brunt of Israeli terrorism), this report is based entirely on interviews with Israeli military and politicians.
No human rights observers, no medical staff, no press representatives – these are the people an honest enquiry goes to for information, not just those who carried out the atrocities that w all saw the result of on our televisions eighteen months ago – the claims in this report are not in any way in any way by the press and media reports we were getting daily, which is a good reason for them not being included.
Where's the evidence from 'Medecins Sans Frontieres' who had the job of treating the wounded, or the ambulance drivers who carried off the 2,104 Palestinian dead, including 1,462 civilians - 344 children And 110 women.? An Israeli government official told the BBC that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) had killed 1,000 "terrorists" during the assault on Gaza – mostly civilians and nearly half women and children, it would appear – the ****** figures don't even add up and no evidence of talking to one single witness other than Israelis https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/09/11/israel-depth-look-gaza-school-attacks
What the hell else are the Israeli's going to say - "we didn't do it Guv"
Such enquiries can take years to put together – the one being carried out by the U.N. started a year ago – this one is a hastily prepared whitewash in defence of Israel from their own description – this took two visits to Israel.
This, from the report
"Between June and August 2015 HLMG members and staff undertook two extensive fact-finding trips and four additional research trips to assess every aspect of Israel's conduct in the 2014 Gaza Conflict."
Two ******* "fact-finding trips to explain the deaths of 1,462 civilians - 344 children And 110 women?, is that all those lives were worth, for crying out loud – that is no way to get at the truth – you could have scribbled something more comprehensive on a beer mat??? That is downright insulting, to the dead and to our intelligence!!!
This is little more than evidence hastily gathered by a defending council on behalf of their employers, "The Friends of Israel" – a show-trial in the real meaning of the term.
Jim Carroll

By the way – this is from the foreword of this "independent report, which doesn't even pretend to be independent – it is actually a statement from "The Friends of Israel – not a report.
"No case demonstrates the possibilities for perversion of our current legal system by an adversary better than military operations involving Israel. No matter how effective and lawful the Israel Defense Forces' (IDF) conduct, there is always a barrage of allegations against it. Concepts like "crimes against humanity", "genocide", and accusations in bodies like the UN and the International Criminal Court, are widely and readily used for the purposes of gaining political advantage. The Friends of Israel Initiative (FoII) was founded to defend Israel against delegitimisation campaigns not because we felt a moral obligation or a historical debt to Israel as the State of the Jewish people. Rather, we seek to defend the existence of the State of Israel because in doing so we are defending ourselves and the security and prosperity of the Western world, of which Israel is an integral part"
And this:
This report forms an assessment of Israel's conduct during the 2014 Gaza Conflict, based on an extensive fact-finding visit to Israel of the High Level Military Group (HLMG) in early June 2015 and several follow-up visits by individual HLMG delegates and staff.
TO ISRAEL – WHAT ABOUT A FACT-FINDING VISIT TO GAZA, WHERE THE DAMAGE WAS DONE AND THE MASSACRES TOOK PLACE
This "report is an insult!!!
All they've done is interview the Israelis who told them, "we didn't do it" – that is the substance of the report – which puts the Kahan report on Sabra/Shatila into context perfectly.
Jim Carroll
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/toll-israel-gaza-conflict.html?_r=0

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.642397

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:02 PM

Links

Here again

And again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:15 PM

Israel's government and military offered a level of
cooperation in seeking to illuminate their actions
that is highly unusual in such a context, offering
open, clear responses to an examination that went
far beyond what our own countries would expect
to have to reveal even to allied militaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:56 PM

For you edification and entertainment Pallywood Bloopers......enjoy!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 07:11 PM

Israel's government and military offered a level of
cooperation in seeking to illuminate their actions

Or whitewash them?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 08:02 PM

"Israel's government and military offered a level of cooperation in seeking to illuminate their actions that is highly unusual in such a context, offering open, clear responses to an examination that went far beyond what our own countries would expect to have to reveal even to allied militaries."
What?
Of course they did, they told them what they wanted them to know
Where is there any indication that they checked what they had been told by the Israelis - at the record speed the report was produced, they would not have had time.
This was a report on a war - where are the statements from the other side - or the observers - or the medical staff - or the press - or anybody else other than the Israelis - .
Are you really suggesting that you can produce a fair report by only interviewing one side of the conflict.
The press reports, from Britain, America, from Israel (Haaretz) contradict the report absolutely - you've been given a small number of them - many, many more waiting in the wings, from all over the world.
Where is the explanation of the commander telling the occupants of a medical home after he had told them to stay in the building - widely reported in the press, not even mentioned?
Or the report from Israeli soldiers describing some of their men picking off survivors struggling over the rubble of their homes - not even mentioned, never mind denied?
Or the press reports of Israeli troops launching rockets from yards of occupied schools, or the flechette anti-personnel missiles in built-up areas, or the destruction of homes with families inside... or the hundreds of eye-witness reports of other incidents - not mentioned, not denied, certainly not disproved -NOTHING.
The U.N. has taken a year of deliberation on a report of these events so far and there is still no sign of it coming out - this **** report was 'investigated, written up, printed and distributed in a matter of weeks.
One fundamental rule of any report such as this is you don't associate yourself with one side or the other and you gather your information from the protagonists of both sides and as many neutral and reliable observers as you can find NOTHING - NOT ONE WORD FROM ANYBODY OTHER THAN THE ISRAELI MILITARY AND POLITICIANS - AND ALL CARRIED OUT FASTER THAN YOU CAN READ AN O HENRY SHORT STORY (usually about three pages long)
It is not only a whitewash, it is downright shoddy a#d insulting to the intelligence - they time they took, the witnesses they spoke to or in this case, didn't speak to), the trouble they took getting both sides of the story (by their own admission, " an extensive fact-finding visit to Israel of the High Level Military Group (HLMG) in early June 2015 and several follow-up visits by individual HLMG delegates and staff." ONE TEAM VISIT TO EXAMINE A WAR THAT LASTED - HOW LONG????
Downright insulting, to say the least!!!
No wonder they found themselves "not guilty" at Sabra/Shatila
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 12:27 AM

"There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth."

(Variously attributed)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 02:03 AM

Skimming through, am I dreaming or is Keith advocating a set of rules for armed conflict as employing some of the best minds?

The law was formulated by the ICRC in the 1949 Geneva Conventions.
Almost all nations have agreed and accepted it, but I am sure Musket and Rag could soon come up with something much better.


Call me thick, but the only minds worth mentioning would be those trying to avoid such things in the first place?

Call me thick, but the means of ending conflict has been beyond all human minds in history.
Perhaps you two could sort that one out too.

Even if you take it at face value, nobody seems to have given a copy to either Israeli or Palestinian militants.

Israel abides by the law so it probably has got a copy.

Jim,
Commissioned by the friends of Israel

Yes. This report by this august and independent body of the West's senior and most experienced military, was commissioned by the friends of Israel.
Had the report been negative I expect they would have sat on it, but they must have been confident it would be positive, as it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 16 - 04:36 AM

"There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.""
More than that Mike - in this case - where are the victim statements, wqhere are the eyewitness reports, where are the rebuttals of accusations of war crimes.
These people didn't even leave the Israeli boardrooms or talk to anybody other than Israelis - or if they did, where are the claims they did.
All the gli
b statements in the world don't alter those facts.
As for Keith's justification of killing civilians - I think words fail us all.
What happened to humanity Keith, or your claimed Christianity, or natural justice, or the right to exist..... or all the other things that are supposed to make humans human?
THe rules of conflict are a formalised excuse for the taking of human life drawn up by soldiers and politicians - sfa about being a human being
Try it sometime, it's quite rewarding.
Jim Carroll