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Are you a lumper or a splitter?
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Subject: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 13 Jun 00 - 06:11 PM In the some of the debates, musical and otherwise that we have had on The Mudcat the terms, 'lumpers' and 'splitters' are mentioned. These terms had their origin in biological classification. 'Lumpers' being those who lump species and groups together and 'splitters' who would divide into sub-species and smaller groups.
Whatever the subject of the debate, these tend to be the two extremes. More accurately I think these two extremes could be described as includers and excluders.
This is not yet another attempt to start the 'what is folk' debate but to use it as an example, I would choose a larger inclusive definition than many others would. This is pretty much true for whatever the subject. Some people have strong views on what instruments should be excluded from certain types of music and I would not care, as long as they were played sensitively…..And so on.
It might be because I have a deep-seated fear of being excluded from things, who knows? It must be recognised however that exclusion is a painful process for those being excluded and my sympathies would tend to be with them. I have this mental image of a sad and lonely soul, walking home carrying their tuba, after being excluded from a bluegrass jam. Are you a includer or an excluder? Do you find yourself in pretty much the same position on this scale or does your position vary, depending on the subject? And what does it all mean and is there any hope for the bluegrass tuba players among us? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Jun 00 - 06:20 PM I dig the bluegrass tuba. But in other news, I tend to go with what the words are doing, rather than the music... so a lot of REM I think of as folk, and a lot of Gilbert & Sullivan, and so on. Moody Blues, Yes, anyone who tells stories in song, even if the accompanying music isn't what would be called a ballad or a folk song. So I guess I'm an includer...what I think of is songs that "folks" can sing, I guess, even if some of us might have trouble with the Nightmare pattersong. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: TerriM Date: 13 Jun 00 - 07:21 PM I think, as a folk club organiser that I am, I hope,naturally an includer, despite the number of times my senses, sensibilities and sanity have been under assault. Thre whole point of a folk club, as I saw it, was that it was for 'folk', they didn't have to be good, whatever that means, they just had to want to perform.Folk music, by it's very nature, is eclectic, and folk clubs should be driven by that and be inclusive.Well, that's my two pen'orth anyway :) |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: sophocleese Date: 13 Jun 00 - 08:49 PM How about we split the definiton and lump people into different categories? Damn it, I guess that means I'm a splitter. I must be a splitter. This doesn't mean that I exclude people but that I do make distinctions between the music, driving styles or hair colour of different people. When I describe someone as having blonde hair I'm attempting to describe as accurately as I can what I see. This is not the same as saying Susan has blond hair therefore she is a good girl and David has black hair therefore he is a bad boy. It does mean though that I can appreciate Susan hair in its golden tints and sunny brightness and David's hair for its velvety look and dramatic elegance. Occassionally I find myself in argument with a determined lumper, but it seems to me that is because the lumper is reading other definitions into physical descriptions, or is misreading my reason for describing. Certainly I agree that a folk club should be inclusive, but if the organizers of events are blind to differences of style, ability and purpose in the players than they don't help the players or the audience.
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Mbo Date: 13 Jun 00 - 10:26 PM I'm DEFINATELY a lumper. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Ebbie Date: 13 Jun 00 - 10:34 PM Thread Creep Alert! "a sad and lonely soul, walking home carrying their tuba, after being excluded from a bluegrass jam." T. Shambles: what a great line! Interestingly, a Canadian tuba player that has occasionally come to Juneau does play country. Sounds pretty good too. Now back to lumpers and splitters...Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Bill D Date: 13 Jun 00 - 10:35 PM I am conceptually a splitter, but practically a lumper.. The point is, I want the categories recognized and understood so that everything does not become mush...but...if you bring a tuba to my party and want to play "Wildwood Flower" on it, I'll play along...and to a certain extent, if all you know is "Yellow Submarine", I'll tolerate THAT too...but if you try to tell me that "Yellow Submarine" if real folk music, we go to the trenches... Every art, hobby, cultural group, etc., has 'areas' which appeal to people in different ways...it is not necessarily exclusionary to note the borders and divisions, and sometimes the 'tatters' want to go off by themselves and not invite the knitters and crocheters and whining that "well, WE use woven threads TOO" just doesn't help!... you don't have to be rude and snobby to explain that right now you just want to wallow in old ballads, and NOT have fiddle tunes interrupting...sure it's all music, and maybe all FOLK music,but......but eventually I'll want to hear the fiddles...I just want it RECOGNIZED that there is a difference!
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Mark Cohen Date: 14 Jun 00 - 12:13 AM There are two groups of people in the world: those who divide the world into two groups of people and those who don't. I don't. Aloha, Mark (temporarily joining the group of people who post to a thread without having very much substantial to add) |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Metchosin Date: 14 Jun 00 - 01:38 AM Me neither Mark but here goes anyways. Little Richard said "Rock'n Roll is when you sing about losing your girlfriend and Country is when you sing about losing your wife." "Maybe Folk could be defined as when you sing about losing your dog.*BG* I fear I'm about to have my lumps split. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Mark Clark Date: 14 Jun 00 - 01:59 AM Since I suspect some of my ramblings on the bluegrass thread are at least partly to blame for Shambles outstanding declaration, please let me try to convince you that I am fundamentally an includer as well. At a folk festival jam or song circle (we used to call them hootenannys) I always want every one included, whatever they play or sing. At such events I tend to think that performing highly structured ensemble music in a jam detracts from the event and makes people feel shut out. I relish the chance to hear new things and new techniques and there is no music in any style from any country or region that would cause me to turn my back. (Oh wait, I forgot about Kenney G.) I love to hear a room full of voices raised in song and I love to hear what everyone is experimenting with. That's why I spend time on these forums, because Mudcat is like that too. Any session-type event that is advertised and open to anyone shouldn't be surprised when people show up; I think a special effort should be made to make everyone feel welcome. That's the way people have treated me and it's the way I treat them. If someone wants to have a purely bluegrass jam around these parts, they usually take care to invite only experienced bluegrass players with bluegrass expectations and they don't advertise the session beyond the limited personal invitations.
"Now I don't want to get off on a rant here but..." (lights fade to black) "But that's just my opinion... I could be wrong." (lights come back up, wild applause) Cheers, - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Jun 00 - 02:06 AM Mark, there are really three kinds of people - those who can do arithmetic, and those who can't. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Fiddlin' Big Al Date: 14 Jun 00 - 03:56 AM The third kind is the splumper. I am definitely a splumper. Played banjo with a Scots bagpiper at a luau, fiddled for a squaredance in a hot air balloon, and played banjo accompanied by a rhythm section of scantly clad logger ladies weilding running chain saws for a chamber of commerce breakfast. (Didn't stare - didn't dare.) Selective eclecticism = eclectic selectivity. Perhaps what is here is a sort of dialectical musicalism. Splumpers RULE. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:08 AM I suppose musically I'm a lumper as I find my favourite jazz & blues record shop (Ray's in London) overcategorizes everything to my frustration when I'm trying to decide where they'd put things. Their blues section has "honkers and wailers", for example, and the LP section "rare as hen's teeth" (with prices to match!). On the other hand, a delight to browse for the unexpected, only annoying when looking for something specific. I suspect it is the same with performing. If you are advertised as an Irish or Bluegrass etc evening people come to hear that. If you are less specific "song circle" etc then there is the pleasure of serendipity. Not that my opinion on anything folkie is worth a gnat's gonads. RtS |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 14 Jun 00 - 05:47 AM Mark. Sorry about my "outstanding declaration", I was just born like that. Surgery hasn't helped either. I had not read your comments on the 'bluegrass thread' but I will go and do so now. The ones I have read there were very informative as indeed were all the contributions here. The reference to bluegrass was just an example.
It was interesting to read that you do change your position on the scale, depending on the subject. Unlike Bill D and I, who it seems, will always be at different end of the tennis court. 30-15 to me at the moment, I think, Bill?
But the purpose of the thread was not to argue that either extreme was the right one. But, oh what the hell….. My serve……..
I can understand the need for different types of everything but feel that there is little real danger of things becoming one large grey lump. One large, many faceted, multi-coloured and multi-cultured lump, maybe?
I believe that there always will be quite natural and clear divisions, in music anyway. More generally I think the danger comes when, in order to avoid this perceived grey lump, conscious efforts are made to design and maintain some idea of purity. For I believe that history tells us that these attempts to avoid change, to narrow, control and to some extent deny power and a say, to others are doomed to failure in the long term……….. Remember Tubby the tuba? Is there not a forth type of person, those that can understand tennis scoring? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 14 Jun 00 - 06:07 AM Having read Roger's post, I am not now expecting an early return of serve from Bill D. For I believe that he is already packing his bags for a visit to the record shop that Roger described.? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Whistle Stop Date: 14 Jun 00 - 08:29 AM When it comes to musical categories, I'm a lumper. I like to mix things up, and think that most of the more appealing musical developments in history resulted from combining forms, often over the objections of the purists. In creative endeavors, synthesis is what it's all about. When it comes to playing and/or performing, however, I'm probably more of a splitter (also known as an antisocial son of a bitch). I don't generally enjoy large jams (more than three or four musicians) with no clear focus, and I don't invite others to layer their playing on top of mine without a clear concept tying the individual contributions into a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts. And in performance, there's an invisible line on the floor in front of me (defined by the lip of the stage when there is one, or else by the placement of the monitors, etc.) that audience members may only cross at their peril. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Mooh Date: 14 Jun 00 - 09:08 AM Lumper. Recently been lumped into a recording of "Whiter Shade of Pale" where I played mandolin. It worked, but wouldn't have happened without a lumper attitude from the band which called me. I like to include other folks to play, some great fun can be had this way, and sometimes even spawns a band. Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 14 Jun 00 - 10:16 AM I guess, bottom line, I just like to sing along. It doesn't matter what is being sung, I just like to sing along... |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Mark Clark Date: 14 Jun 00 - 11:09 AM Shambles, my recollection of tennis scoring is that it always seems to involve a great deal of love. Enjoyed your post, - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: SINSULL Date: 14 Jun 00 - 01:15 PM Re: Mrrzy's comment: A friend of mine has a son who completed a BA in Mathematics and an MA in Computers at Princeton and Stevens while keeping a thriving concert pianist career alive. He is Russian and his language skills were so poor at the time that the NYC School system wanted to put him in remedial classes. (I wander). The point is - he claims that Mathematics is a perfect science and Music is a sub science of Mathematics. His music and math studies were, to him, one. So we're back to two kinds of people - lumpers and splitters. I myself am an elitist lumper, something akin to an exclusionist snob with wrecked cars in her front yard. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:14 PM I'll sing practically anything, preferably sitting down, does that make me a slumper?? LTS |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Hollowfox Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:17 PM I find that I do both; first I split, then I lump. This shows up most when I do laundry; first I "split" the clothes into many, very specific piles (denim, towels, etc.) Then, after I do the piles that have enough to fill the washer by themselves, I "lump" the smaller loads, putting the more similar batches together, eventually ending up with "dark colors" and "light colors". |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: sophocleese Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:24 PM So I guess the answer is that nobody is exclusively a splitter or a lumper in all situations. We all have specific and well defined areas of persnicketyness. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: paddymac Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:25 PM Sounds to me like Shambes has come up with what might well become the new "mother of all pick-up lines" at music related events of all kinds. I can see it now: lonely bohdran player encounters dejected tuba player in a starlit sylvan glen. "Hi! You're gorgeous, but are you a lumper or a splitter? "Well, here in the moonlight, I find you attractive as well, but I'm not familiar with your jargon and therefor don't really know how to answer your question." "It's starlight." "What? Oh! (looking toward the vault of the sky) Well, maybe it's a bit of both. It's nice, anyway." "Oh, so your a lumper!" "I'm a what?" "A lumper." "What's a lumper? "That's someone who likes to bring things together." (smiling sensuously) "Oh yes, I guess I am lumper. I do indeed like to bring beautiful things together. Especially on a beautiful night in a beautiful place like this. Say! What is that thing you have?" "It's called a bohdran" "Really? I've never heard that word for it before. What do you do with it" "Well, some people just bang on it, but I think it's better if you stroke it with feeling. You know, the kinder gentler thing" "Oh. Have you ever played a tuba?" "Well, no, not exactly. How do you do it?" "Well, it's a good idea to lick your lips first, then just blow it here." "Oh! I see. You know, I bet we could make some beautiful music together. Wanna try?" "Well, okay. How do you wanna do it?" "Well, let's start with you stroking my thing and I'll blow your thing." "Well, okay. But what's the next movement?" "Hmm, well, let's just see how this first part works, and then we cane improvise." "Say, are you a folkie?" |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:28 PM Nice to hear about your laundry, my SO hasn't quite realised this yet - the amount of white T shirts I had has dropped dramatically, and we both own matching fuschia pink underwear now!! Guess he'd just be a lump....... But how do you separate light and dark colours when you have a pale shirt with dark stripes in it....? LTS |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: SINSULL Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:29 PM paddymac or Catspaw??? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: sophocleese Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:30 PM You cover up the pale bits with dark marker Liz. Well that's what my son tried to do one day. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: SINSULL Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:45 PM My brothers outdid that Soph. While playing with a 22 rifle one day, they shot a hole in the bedroom ceiling. Rather than risk a well deserved beating, they fill the hole with crayons matching the ceiling. Their deed was not discovered until years later when it came time to repaint. Note to gun owners and parents in general: Lock them or your children up - your choice. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:52 PM There are, by the way, microsplitters, for whom normal splitting is too much like lumping to be tolerable. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:56 PM ...for me it's more an issue of do I like my soup pureed or more stew-like? I'm definitely a lumper but I want to know what the lumps are! |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:57 PM Are they anything like Micro chips? Can I eat them?? As one who can spend four hours sorting things into groups, I dare not delve too deeply into this, but basically, if a song/tune overlaps into 2 or more groups, you have a good song/tune, and you should proceed to sing/play it to death.... figuratively speaking of course. I once filled an old picture hook hole in a white wall with toothpaste - SO didn't notice for over a year..... once it dries, it just looks like ordinary filler. He only found out when he wiped the wall down ready for painting it.....! LTS |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Hollowfox Date: 14 Jun 00 - 06:19 PM I'm glad my kids aren't the only ones with oddly pink underwear. The stripes generally go with the majority (mostly light into the light pile, etc.) BTW, my father told me about a man whose summer job was to play "Flight of the Bumblebee" as a tuba solo in a local amusement park some 50+ years ago. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: sophocleese Date: 14 Jun 00 - 06:30 PM Years ago my younger brother and I thought we'd cheer my sick mother up with a little skit. My brother would pretend to have his finger stuck in his ear and then, after various contortions, when he finally removed it I would pull the bathroom plunger from the wall and provide a loud POP. We rehearsed it in the bathroom several times and it all went well. Then we went to hallway by my mother's room and played it for her in the doorway. At last my moment for sound effects came and I pulled the plunger away from the wall. To my horror no loud POP sounded but instead a large section of plaster crumbled to the floor. My mother laughed and suggested I cover the spot with a poster until we repainted. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Bill D Date: 14 Jun 00 - 09:42 PM yay, Animaterra!...you said it WELL!...(Shambles, that record shop (back up there^)would have me frothing at the mouth...I need some sort of order..whereas, I suppose you would just cheerfully paw through bins till something looked interesting) |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Rollo Date: 15 Jun 00 - 12:50 AM Well, if you think about it, as long folk music is "living" it is lumper's music, but when it's "dying" and just a style to be preserved it's splinter's music. the reason is, whenever the folks around make music, they bring every instruments they have, sing all the songs they have and if someone brings along the tuba he is weelcome of course, because a tuba is delivering a great base. MUSIC TIP >>> And You should watch out for Hans Theesink, a dutch blues gitar player who is often accompanied by a marvelous tuba player named jon sass. Great deal, this duo. But when folks doesnt come together to make music any onger, but just a bunch of fanatics (like me *ggg*) who remembers the music of the old days, then they just remember which instruments were brought normally and which songs were sung and poor tuba man must play some bohemian march music because noone remembers ole nick huggins bringing his tuba down to the fair in some rotten hillbilly village in the 1890ies. Maybe this is the reason I hardly play the trombone these days but my banjo begs for mercy.
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Mark Cohen Date: 15 Jun 00 - 02:09 AM Be yourself You can't be anybody else Be yourself Or else you'll always be a nobody So be yourself, or else A hippopotamus Would look very curious Flying like a butterfly A fierce and hungry lion Would look very silly tryin' To bake an apple pie I think you'd get a laugh If you saw a tall giraffe Swinging by his tail from a tree I think an octopus Would look quite ridiculous Knitting sweaters at the bottom of the sea, so... [repeat chorus] I don't know who wrote it, but it's on Danny Kaye's recording of Tubby the Tuba at the Circus. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 15 Jun 00 - 06:42 AM Well I know we visited the record shop before but it does highlight the problem. To the owner of the shop above, it is in perfect order. To Bill D it is not and to Roger, it's completely over the top. You're probably right about me. I browse until I stumble upon something that looks interesting. I think that I tend to learn a little in the process too. If the music was being played in the shop however, we could all find out pretty quickly what we liked? We may be pleasantly surprised as well? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Bill D Date: 15 Jun 00 - 01:27 PM ah, Shambles...maybe it is my advancing age that makes me so picky..*grin*...I spent many years hearing and sorting out my musical tastes, and now with a limited income and even more limited time, I want to be able to cater to my mood quickly...and there is much I KNOW I will not be interested in, so when a store has a couple of bins labeled simply 'American Folk' and 'International', I cringe. Yeah, I 'might' learn something new flipping thru all the neo-folk and pop-folk and S/SW stuff to find one or two things that I really fancy, but it seems to me that NOT breaking it down into clear categories that make sense is sheer laziness if you are in business. Same goes for advertising concerts, open stages, festivals, and song circles...if all you do at your song circle is "Rise Up Singing", say so, so I can stay home! If you bill yourself a folk-singer, but barely know anything older than Dylan, and write most of your own stuff, you are fooling two of us, me and YOU! And I would prefer NOT to spend money on a concert that I only like 10% of. I simply do not accept that having narrower, well defined fields of interest in music..(or any other area) is somehow petty and/or shallow. Dog shows, woodworking, cooking, antiques, auto racing and computers all have categories which people pick & choose among....and you see the same discussions there about lumping & splitting, but many of those groups have **DEFINITIONS** of their various formats. You can be part of several different groups, but you can at least choose. Anyway...if you bring your tuba to my party, be prepared to be locked out of the ballad room...*big grin*
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Jim the Bart Date: 15 Jun 00 - 02:39 PM Nature does not lump or split. The universe is a continuum, without the types of seams that splitting requires and with many more degrees of subtle variation for homogeneous lumping. As a technique for understanding nature and the umniverse, both lumping and splitting have their purposes and can be useful - but only when applied properly. Both can be counter-productive when taken to the extreme, or adhered to when situations would dictate otherwise. Making distinctions is what allows doctors to figure out which ointment to prescribe, or which part to lop off, or which artery to unclog. In fact, it is our ability to make finer and finer distinctions - to measure things ever more closely - that keeps moving the species forward, technologically speaking. The thing is to be able to see the differences in like things and the commonality in disparate things. And the trick is to alter your focus. It's like the old zen riddle says: First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is. Or was that Donovan? This all applies when talking about music. I think in music, a single-minded obsession with categorization and definition is just a step on the road to madness. To say that a Tuba is not a bluegrass instrument is disingeneous; the truth is probably closer to "I don't think I like the sound of Tubas in a bluegrass band". To say that in your experience, Tuba hasn't worked well in a bluegrass context might be closer to the truth. To listen to the Tuba player play "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" before making a judgment about whether she/he adds to the music, is to hear bluegrass again, for the first time. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 15 Jun 00 - 06:03 PM Well I'm all for a little bit of homogeneous lumping, but who started the tuba fixation?? LTS
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: sophocleese Date: 15 Jun 00 - 06:12 PM Well how many people on Mudcat have had their tubas fixed? I like the way you say that Bartholomew. Perhaps to refine on Shambles' categories, I'm a splitter but not an excluder. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 15 Jun 00 - 06:25 PM Funny you should mention getting tubas fixed - my doctor has agreed after 4 years to just write the letter!! Anyone want a spare egg? LTS |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Bill D Date: 15 Jun 00 - 11:04 PM naawww..I think I'll just plant one of those little Euphoniums... |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Bill D Date: 15 Jun 00 - 11:09 PM see...they grow up to just the right size |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: The Shambles Date: 04 Jul 00 - 09:15 AM There is some discussion on exclusion and other stuff here. Women's HearMe? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: sledge Date: 04 Jul 00 - 09:45 AM Play on Harpgirl and do your thing. Just because I invited some friends to my home to play I would not expect to have to admit others I don't really know just because THEY felt excluded. This Mudcat thing is a very widepread community and to help bring it all a little closer these sort of things should be encouraged not critisised. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: bbelle Date: 04 Jul 00 - 11:57 AM I enjoy all kinds of music so reckon I'm a lumper. I don't, however, feel excluded if a session or festival is exclusively about one particular genre of music. If I'm familiar with the genre, I join in ... if I'm not, I don't. I'm going to attend Steve Kaufman's Flatpickers' Kamp next June, which is specifically about bluegrass. Even though I'm not specifically a bluegrass musician, I love it, and wouldn't deny myself the opportunity because of what someone else might term "exclusivity" ... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Jon Freeman Date: 04 Jul 00 - 12:03 PM sledge, I think you have hit on one of the problems when you say "invited to your house". Let me try again: 1. There had been a complaint made by Harpgirl that Mbo had been singing to much and not letting others get a turn and there was some disucssion and as I result, I made it possible for anybody to set up a room using my page for whatever event they wished. 2. Harpgirl comes up with a suggestion for a Hearme event that by its definition excludes certain people from participating, 3. I suggest that such an event would be better placed in a private room (cf your house). 4. Before I know it my suggestion is being read as being sexist. I'd have thought that somebody who had previously complained about not getting a look in would have been the first to understand that those rules were effectively stoping others from peforming and could have at least entered into a reasonable discussion on the possibility of using a different location. The biggest problem with that whole debate was that few people were capable of looking at a general problem which it is (or could be at some point in the future ) and has nothing to do with whether HG's suggestion was a good one or not. If people wish to use my page, a reasonable discussion on how to use it to best suit the needs of everybody would be constructive but I think that with the current feeling it would be impossible. Why is it so hard for people to simply step back a little and look at the real problem without clouding the issue with other subjects? Jon |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: Áine Date: 04 Jul 00 - 01:01 PM Beating a dead horse only gets you a flattened mushy dead horse. -- Áine ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Are you a lumper or a splitter? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jul 00 - 07:04 PM I like that idea of Shambles of inviting people over from one thread to another one. Thread emigration. Sort of the opposite of thread drift. I heven't seen it done like that before, and it strikes me as a handy piece of of social invention.
Of course it is wide open to accusations if splittism. It's a bit like a crowded session which is getting overwhelmed by people who are playing stuff you don't feel like playing - you might grab a couple of cronies and head off to another room.
And that seems a very sensible thing to do. It means there are two sessions on, for a start, and bioth with people enjoying playing in them. The tricky bit comes if you found yourself wanting to say "you're in the wrong session - try nextdoor."
But there are times that'd be just the right thing to say. The puzzle is working out when it is, and when it's definitely not.
Well if anyone's going to Sidmouth (and if you are, I hope we meet there), here's an example in point - The Anchor is a pub in the middle of it; and at the height of activities you'll find the Middle Bar, where there is a well established song session (already mentioned in tghis thread I think), and up the stairs nextdoor there's a bar where there's a well established tune session, mostly Irish and Scottish and that. And out in the garden there's a dance band playing with a caller , and people dancing. And out in front of the pub there's another floating session, where all kinds of mixtures of music are playing.
And I could go on and on, reminding myself of all the different venues which have developed over the years with different conventions of what fits there and doesn't. And if anyone wandered into one of them with an appetite to play music that didn't fit in there, you could always advise where it probably would. (The bluegrass tuba - I'd suggest playing it in front of the Anchor, and seeing who joined in.)
The thing is different musics can play alongside each other, and sometimes play with each other. But in order for that to happen they have to have an identity of their own which is distinct from that of the other musics.Just as when instruments to play together it's better if they have different voices.
Going apart is a necessary precondition to being able to come back into the common with a special gift to share with other people.
My house is full of books all jumbled together, and the words in my head from the different books may get mixed up - but in then books they are all there distinctnand separate, a different world between each set of covers. My records are more organised by catergories - largely because its easy to run my eyes along a varied bunch of books on a shelf and pick out the one I'm after. Can't do that with records, or even with CDs. But most of the records I've got were probably picked up by browsing through heaps of secondhand ones in boot fairs and jumble sales and so forth.
So I pick out things from a confused muddle, and that mkaes me a splitter, and then I take them home and put them on the shelves in a confused muddle, and that makes me a lumper. They aren't really opposed attitudes, any more than the different sections of a tune or a dance are opposed to each other. And if some people are more splitters than lumpers, it's the other way round form other people - and that's how dances work. |
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