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BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: GUEST,Frank Date: 28 Aug 04 - 04:30 PM Amos, I think you did a lot of good work in outlining your thread. "You don't attack fascism by attacking or demonizing any of its constituent parts." I agree with this. Attacking and demonizing are as you say two of facism's elements. " This is what the Left hasn't understood." Here, I would take exception. Many in the Left have understood and focus on the issues without throwing brickbats. We don't need to demonize the Left as a monolithic view. "Corporations are not villainous things, nor are cops on the beat or our own kinsmen who make up the military." They are only as good as the people that serve these things. Many of these people are capable of both villainy and virtue. " Our churches are clear forces for good." Not necessarilly. Many of the churches of the fundamentalist Right-wing are analogous to those who are deemed "terrorist" in Islam. The "Church" is again not monolithic and can be subjected to both villainy and virtue. " But all institutions are subject to the temptations to advance their wealth and influence at the expense of ordinary people, even while declaring themselves to be the people's protector and friend. We've seen it all before, both here and abroad. " And yet there is a current of philosophic thought that calls this "human nature" and I would argue with that because what makes us truly human is our bonding in society which is counter to these selfish interests. I think America is a great country precisely because we as Americans will not accept corporate tyrants or politicians that don't show their mettle through their behavior. I think protests are a form of American behavior that I would consider patriotic. Someone still has to have the passion for the idealism of our country. I believe that "facism" can be a tendency as well as a totalitarian regime. There are facist tendencies in our country that continually need to be thwarted. Ashcroft's view of the Patriot Act in my opinion is a facist tendency that runs counter to the principles of civil rights. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Aug 04 - 04:45 PM Spelling! Though "facist" is just about the most common mispelling there is in political discussion threads (along with Ghandi). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: GUEST,Frank Date: 28 Aug 04 - 04:53 PM Amos, I think the article is good and reasonable. " In today's world, those enemies come at us from two main fronts: they are religious extremists bent on terrorizing us into conversion or they are powerful persons intent on tightening their grip on wealth - and their advantage over those whose work produces it." I believe that we are seeing this tendency amoung the power elite in Washington today. Americans are being terrorized into conversion by those who own most of the wealth in our country. These are rich Republicans who support their own interests above those of the working class in the US. Some of this terror is being fostered by fundamentalist pseudo-religious groups who are tearing down the Separation of Church and State through their exhortations and enemy posing under the guise of promoting "values". The Corporation (as shown by the movie with the same title) has become a psychotic entity that is bloodless and lacks compassion for anything but the "bottom line". This is a facistic tendency, in my view. Worker's rights are being trampled upon by indiscriminate union busting and purging. The "whistle blower" is denegrated. It's a kind of "iron heel" that squashes true initiative and productive society. Also, power is an addiction that feeds on politicians as well. When a politican claims authority by his own pipeline to God, it's time to wonder if the "tendency" hasn't again shown itself. Fortunately, we have checks and balances for that kind of arrogance. Therefore, we are not a facist country as of yet. It could turn. I think a civil war would have to erupt here first. We may be in the midst of one now. Thanks Amos for the lucid article and great discussion. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 28 Aug 04 - 05:20 PM All salient points, Guest Frank. Your posts are better than the article. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Once Famous Date: 28 Aug 04 - 05:43 PM Civil war? Get real. Spoken like a true old hippie. Smoke another one. The revolution will not be televised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: The Shambles Date: 29 Aug 04 - 04:40 AM And yet there is a current of philosophic thought that calls this "human nature" and I would argue with that because what makes us truly human is our bonding in society which is counter to these selfish interests. Indeed and if you do something which is selfish and greedy (or worse) there appears to be some comfort (for some) in maintaining that this is just "human nature". That if you didn't do it first then someone else would only come along and do it. Now it may be true that this is "human nature" but it is only one part of it. In every world trouble spot where the greedy and the selfish are waging war or generally doing their best to destroy our planet for short-term gain - there are the selfless or at least the practically helpful, who are displaying another part of "human nature" and trying to heal and patch up the victims, often at great personal risk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Aug 04 - 07:03 AM Remembering that something is "human nature" is a reminder that we should not to be surprised at it, and that eliminating it isn't going to be easy. It doesn't imply that we just accept it. Everything people do is part of human nature, or we wouldn't do it. There is nothing unnatural about rape and murder and genocide, but nothing inevitable about them either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Wolfgang Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:39 AM the most common mispelling there is Wolfgang (grin) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: The Shambles Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:15 AM Remembering that something is "human nature" is a reminder that we should not to be surprised at it, and that eliminating it isn't going to be easy. I think that many of us are surprised at displays of the more positive aspects of "human nature" and that encouraging this, is even less easy, especially in political systems. If as a leader and against the odds, you do somehow manage to achieve this noble aim - you can always use the excuse that you were only delivering what your people wanted.......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: GUEST,Frank Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:07 PM It's "fascist". Sorry about that. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Once Famous Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:09 PM Guest, Frank. your face is fascist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: GUEST,Frank Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:10 PM "Civil war? Get real. Spoken like a true old hippie." Not literally but metaphorically. The country is the most divided it's been for a long time. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Once Famous Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:30 PM Yes, I agree on that. But there are those here I truly believe mean it literally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Aug 04 - 08:32 PM All wars are civil wars really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Once Famous Date: 30 Aug 04 - 09:32 PM Yeah? What about The War of the Worlds? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Ironmule Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:32 AM I can confidently tell you that WesleyS is full of it,,,,,,I'm his brother. {bg} Why, I've known him to use Sweet Pickle Relish along with the Heinz Ketchup on his hot dawgs, and even Bratwurst!!!! The worst culinary sin I've known him to commit???? Garlic bread,,,,,spread with grape jelly Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, I taught him to do it.{VBG} Jeff Smith |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Chris Green Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:51 PM Have I misread the title of this thread? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Amos Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:57 PM DB: No, you have not. It is simply that certain elements cannot sit still and let others have a decent conversation. If you have ever raised a child between the agres of 4 and 7 you are familiar with this phenomenon -- if you want to talk to adults you have to hire a babysitter. Unfortunately no-one has figured out how to run a cyber-babysit algorithm on a forum. So the brats run around yapping freely and wetting on the cushions. Keep breathing. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Chris Green Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:17 PM Nice analogy, mate! Made me laugh quite a lot! |
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Subject: Renewed Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Amos Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:20 PM I have been directed of late to an interesting and articulate blogger David Neiwert yclept. David Neiwert is a freelance journalist based in Seattle. His reportage for MSNBC.com on domestic terrorism won the National Press Club Award for Distinguished Online Journalism in 2000. He is the author of Death on the Fourth of July: The Story of a Killing, a Trial, and Hate Crime in America, (Palgrave/St. Martin's, 2004), In God's Country: The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest (1999, WSU Press), as well as the forthcoming Strawberry Days: The Rise and Fall of the Bellevue Japanese-American Community (Palgrave/St. Martin's Press, 2005). In his weblog he has produced a series oF essays which deserve attention, to which I have produced links below: Part 1: The Morphing of the Conservative Movement Part 2: The Architecture of Fascism Part 3: The Pseudo-Fascist Campaign Part 4: The Apocalyptic One-Party State Part 5: Warfare By Other Means Part 6: Breaking Down the Barriers Part 7 [Conclusion]: It Can Happen Here I hope you find them interesting and enjoyable. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Bobert Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:54 PM Some fine stuff here, Amos... I kinda glanced thru it and what came to mind is something that I have pointed out on amny occasions and that is the strong Nazi presence in the Republican Party... No, I don't mean that the Repubs are acting like Nazis, though they are. But, as I have mentioned in the past, lots of former Nazies found their way to the U.S. after the war and found the Republican Party very receptive in taking them into the fold. A good read on it is Russ Bellant's "Old Nazis, the Right, and the Republican Party" (South End Press, 1988). Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Amos Date: 08 Jan 05 - 12:49 PM The following article is extracted from a telling NY Times article concerning the thoughts of Fritz Stern, who grew up in Germany during the rise of National Socialism. The whole article can be found over here. I believe the parallel drawn by Mister Stern need to be thought about carefully. A Democracy's CollapseBy CHRIS HEDGES Published: January 6, 2005 Correction Appended PRINCETON, N.J. FRITZ STERN, a refugee from Hitler's Germany and a leading scholar of European history, startled several of his listeners when he warned in a speech about the danger posed in this country by the rise of the Christian right. In his address in November, just after he received a prize presented by the German foreign minister, he told his audience that Hitler saw himself as "the instrument of providence" and fused his "racial dogma with a Germanic Christianity." "Some people recognized the moral perils of mixing religion and politics," he said of prewar Germany, "but many more were seduced by it. It was the pseudo-religious transfiguration of politics that largely ensured his success, notably in Protestant areas." Dr. Stern's speech, given during a ceremony at which he got the prize from the Leo Baeck Institute, a center focused on German Jewish history, was certainly provocative. The fascism of Nazi Germany belongs to a world so horrendous it often seems to defy the possibility of repetition or analogy. But Dr. Stern, 78, the author of books like "The Politics of Cultural Despair: A Study in the Rise of the Germanic Ideology" and university professor emeritus at Columbia University, has devoted a lifetime to analyzing how the Nazi barbarity became possible. He stops short of calling the Christian right fascist but his decision to draw parallels, especially in the uses of propaganda, was controversial. "When I saw the speech my eyes lit up," said John R. MacArthur, whose book "Second Front" examines wartime propaganda. "The comparison between the propagandistic manipulation and uses of Christianity, then and now, is hidden in plain sight. No one will talk about it. No one wants to look at it." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Amos Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:12 PM An excerpt from the Common Dreams website, an article entitled "The Ghost of Vice-President Wallace Warns 'It Can Happen Here'". Wallace was one of the VPs under FDR. See the link for the full piece--I have edited it down for palatability. "In early 1944, the New York Times asked Vice President Henry Wallace to, as Wallace noted, "write a piece answering the following questions: What is a fascist? How many fascists have we? How dangerous are they?" ... "The really dangerous American fascists," Wallace wrote, "are not those who are hooked up directly or indirectly with the Axis. The FBI has its finger on those. The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power." ... ...(It was actually Italian philosopher Giovanni Gentile who wrote the entry in the Encyclopedia Italiana that said: "Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Mussolini, however, affixed his name to the entry, and claimed credit for it.) ... As the 1983 American Heritage Dictionary noted, fascism is: "A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism." Mussolini was quite straightforward about all this. In a 1923 pamphlet titled "The Doctrine of Fascism" he wrote, "If classical liberalism spells individualism, Fascism spells government." But not a government of, by, and for We The People - instead, it would be a government of, by, and for the most powerful corporate interests in the nation. In 1938, Mussolini brought his vision of fascism into full reality when he dissolved Parliament and replaced it with the "Camera dei Fasci e delle Corporazioni" - the Chamber of the Fascist Corporations. Corporations were still privately owned, but now instead of having to sneak their money to folks like Tom DeLay and covertly write legislation, they were openly in charge of the government. Vice President Wallace bluntly laid out in his 1944 Times article his concern about the same happening here in America: " If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. ... They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead." ..."American fascism will not be really dangerous," he added in the next paragraph, "until there is a purposeful coalition among the cartelists, the deliberate poisoners of public information..." Noting that, "Fascism is a worldwide disease," Wallace further suggest that fascism's "greatest threat to the United States will come after the war" and will manifest "within the United States itself." ..." Still another danger is represented by those who, paying lip service to democracy and the common welfare, in their insatiable greed for money and the power which money gives, do not hesitate surreptitiously to evade the laws designed to safeguard the public from monopolistic extortion. American fascists of this stamp were clandestinely aligned with their German counterparts before the war, and are even now preparing to resume where they left off, after 'the present unpleasantness' ceases." ... In a comment prescient of George W. Bush's recent suggestion that civilization itself is at risk because of gays, Wallace continued: " The symptoms of fascist thinking are colored by environment and adapted to immediate circumstances. But always and everywhere they can be identified by their appeal to prejudice and by the desire to play upon the fears and vanities of different groups in order to gain power. It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice. It may be shocking to some people in this country to realize that, without meaning to do so, they hold views in common with Hitler when they preach discrimination..." ..." A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Don Firth Date: 17 Aug 05 - 04:53 PM Thanks, Amos. Excellent article and excellent post. The quote by Giovanni Gentile, often attributed (until now, even by me) to Mussolini, "Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power," should jerk everybody up short if they ever stopped to think about it. I also took note some time ago of the similarity between what many corporations would like to see in the way of a social order with feudalism. I think that in most people's minds, the word "fascism" conjures up images of black uniforms, swastika armbands, jackboots, and goose-stepping troops. But that sort of image is just one dictator's particular style. Fascists can just as easily be found wearing dark suits and power ties, while smiling pleasantly in board rooms and Congressional committee meetings. Nor does the definition of fascism require racism, such as Hitler's anti-Semitism. It usually does, however, need some kind of scapegoat to keep the populace a bit scared and to justify the steps it wants to take to tighten its authority. Gays, or terrorists, or pro-choicers, or those who are adamant about not want religion crammed down their throats—or the most dreaded evil force of all: "liberals"—can fill that function just as well. Can't happen here? Dammit, it is happening here! (I know, Doug, I know. "The sky is falling!") Sheesh!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:42 PM If you focus all your attention on the fact that the sky is not falling it is easy to ignore the truth that the dark may well be rising. The sky didn't actually fall in Geremany in the Thirties, people still ate and drank and went to work and got married - but the dark was rising all right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:43 PM If you focus all your attention on the fact that the sky is not falling it is easy to ignore the truth that the dark may well be rising. The sky didn't actually fall in Germany in the Thirties. People still ate and drank and went to work and got married - but the dark was rising all right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: The Shambles Date: 18 Aug 05 - 02:50 AM If the effect of both (metaphors) was to leave us all in the dark - it probably matters little which one you chose to describe the gradual process that eventally leaves us in the dark? In a practical sense anyway - it may matter to pedantic poets and songwriters but we may be too busy with such pedantry to notice how dark it is getting now......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: Amos Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:39 PM Three quotes from Alexis de Tocqueville, the 19th century surveyor of what democracy in America really was: "The moral authority of the majority is partly based on the notion that there is more intelligence and wisdom in a number of men united than a single individual, and that the number of legislators is more important that their quality." "I know of no country in which, speaking generally, there is less independence of mind and true freedom of discussion than in America [...] As long as the majority is still undecided, discussion is carried on; but as soon as its decision is irrevocably pronounced, everyone is silent, and the friends as well as the opponents of the measure unite in assenting to its propriety." (This can also be called loyal dissent -- B.P.) ""The sovereign can no longer say, "You shall think as I do on pain of death": but he says, "You are free to think differently from me, and to retain your life, your property, and all that you possess; but if such be your determination, you are henceforth an alien along your people. You may retain your civil rights, but they will be useless to you, for you will never be chosen by your fellow-citizens, if you solicit their suffrages; and they will affect to scorn you, if you solicit their esteem. You will remain among men, but you like an impure being; and those who are mostly persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest they should be shunned in their turn." SPicy but perspicacious, eh? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Aug 05 - 10:39 AM I think the point about "the sky is falling" is that that implies the end of the world rather than that it's getting dark. The point is, when it is implied that, since it's not actually the end of the world, there's really nothing to worry about, that's a bit misleading. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Intelligent Assessment On Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Aug 05 - 06:32 PM assenting to its propriety." (This can also be called loyal dissent -- B.P.) And it's what Communist Parties referred to as "Democratic Centralism". The Cold War really was an argument between people who weren't that far apart in their beliefs about what mattered. And what didn't really matter. |
