BS: Who are your heroes

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:47 AM

I make no apologies for including Cromwell in my list of heroes, although, God knows, he had faults aplenty, as his behaviour in Ireland shows. However, it was Cromwell who forced through the execution of Charles I and then ensured that England became the first Republic of modern times. His action showed that monachy was not infalible and ordanied by God but can be overthrown and a republic put in its place. This was a valiable lesson for the future from which the Americans and the French would learn; and both of the American and French revolutions were about tax, as was the English Civil War. Cromwell also chased out the MPs at sword point from parliament after they had shown themselves to be self serving and caring little for the country and its people they were suppose to repesent."Begone: give place to honest men!" A little simplistic, but true never-the-less. How Britain needs Cromwell today to do just that! Cromwell was also a good leader. He introduced the Barebones parliament, which was a failure but a brave attempt to introduce a parlilament that would represent all the people, not just the rich. He introduced a vibrant commercial policy, which the Stuarts benefited from. No-one was persecuted under him. No-one suffered under him. Those that hated him endured him without fear of a midnight knock on the door.

Ofcourse, I'm not blind to his failings. I know he crushed the Levellers (the finest body of men that England ever produced, until the Chartists and the trade union movement came along) and he suppressed the Irish. These, however, should be put into context. Cromwell was a man of his class and the Levellers were a step too far even for Cromwell. A conservative strand ran through Cromwell even though he was busy radicalising England. As for Drogheda, the massacre was of all the soldiers and the Priests. It was not of the whole town's population. I'm not excusing it, but that should be remembered, as should the conduct of war in that time. Cromwell offered the soldiers clemency if they surrendered. They were surrounded by the English. They should have surrendered. Under the rules of combat at the time, by not surrenderring, they signed their own death warrents. This sort of thing happended all the time during the Seven Years War which was running contemporary with this. For those of you who say that Cromwell should not have been in Ireland in the first place should remember that it has always been English policy to be in Ireland. Cromwell was no different. Not an excuse, I know, but true never-the-less. Also, the royalist were recruting in Ireland and Cromwell was worried that Charles II would invade England with French troops using Ireland as a back door. He really had no choice but to go to Ireland and mop up the last Royalist resistance.

Cromwell was a complicated man, but a hero to me. He did more good than bad. Cetainly the founders of the American and French republics studied him closely, which says something about him, surely.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: kendall
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 07:20 AM

When Cromwell came to Ireland long ago,
He didn't shed a drop of blood you know
And the people started grieving
When they heard that he was leaving
If I knew a bigger lie I'd tell you so.
(The liar as sung by Tommy Makem)

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 07:36 AM

Kendall, I did not say that Cromwell never shed blood in Ireland 9go back over what I said), so quoting a song from, let's face it, a partisan artist, hardly propels the argument forward. I thought some people might be interested in what Tom Reilly, the Irish author of "Cromwell An Honourable Enemy" said :
"I feel that many historians in Ireland are not ready yet for 'an honourable' Cromwell - nor indeed are the people of Ireland. I thought that I would change the history books and public opinion about this much maligned historical figure by publishing the truth about Cromwell's Irish campaign. The reaction - among the under forties on the whole - was good, but among historians and the over forties it was bad. They can't seem to accept such a fundamental flaw in Irish history ie that neither Cromwell or his men ever engaged in the killing of any unarmed civilians throughout his entire nine month campaign. The facts are there for all to see. But God bless Ireland the past is still the present here and we MUST have our English hate figures - despite the truth. How sad is that?"

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: el ted
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 07:38 AM

Rats! delete my allegiance to George Bush and switch it to Oliver Cromwell.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 07:44 AM

I forgot to put my name on the last but one posting. El ted, what point are you making?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: el ted
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 07:49 AM

You have made him sound like a thoroughly good egg EP. I saw a documentary about him on BBC2 recently, and he came out of that rather well too.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 09:04 AM

Ordering and participating the slaughter of thousands of innocent people is more than a character "fault" (as the English Patriot puts it). It is mass murder. I haven't got anyone on my list of heros who slaughters people for THEIR cause, or for ANY cause.

Slaughter of innocents is slaughter. It is wanton murder. No one who does that should be on any heros list.

Including Harry Truman, who also ordered the slaughter of innocents in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 09:19 AM

Noah - anyone who could spend 140 years building a boat in a desert has to have character, faith, and a sense of higher purpose.

Of course I'd add Jesus Christ, Moses, my Dad, my Mom, the US Marine Corps, and a few social workers.

And then again all of you lovely little people that make it all happen for the stars of the world *G*

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 12:38 PM

Cromwell did not slaughter innocents. Those he killed in Drogheda were soldiers, with whom he was fighting. If the army within the walls had surrendered, then all the soldiers would have been spared; but they refused, and so Cromwell behaved as any other General would have done in his situation in that period. The citizens in Drogheda were left alone. The reason he is in my list of heroes is that he pushed through a republic when other men would have stopped well short by making a compromise with King Charles, or else deposing Charles and getting another monarch to replace him, probably a foreigner. Focusing so intently on Drogheda does not give us the full picture of the man especially when Drogheda is so misrepresented.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 04:46 PM

Martin Gibsons' wife.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 05:33 PM

My dad
My brother
My husband
My friend Howard
My violin teacher
Dolly Parton
Nellie Cashman
Annie Oakley

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: Merritt
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:20 PM

My Dad - this piece below is probably too long, but it just barely gives one a sense of this man. - Merritt

William Bussiere, 78, Peace Activist
By Gayle Ronan Sims, Inquirer Staff Writer

William Bussiere, a peace activist and social worker who worked to stop gang violence in North Philadelphia and to enact laws for urban renewal, died July 18 at his home in the William Penn Housing Cooperative in Center City.

Mr. Bussiere was born and raised in Woonsocket, R.I., where he excelled in athletics but not academics. He dropped out of high school in 1943 and enlisted in the Marines. He served in the Pacific Theater during World War II with the Marine Corps Sixth Division fighting in battles on Guam, Okinawa and Guadalcanal.

After the war, Mr. Bussiere returned to Rhode Island to complete his high school education. Then, supported by the GI Bill, he earned bachelor's and master's degrees from Springfield College in Massachusetts and a master's in social work from Bryn Mawr College in 1962.

In the early-1950s, Mr. Bussiere was a founder of a national committee of veterans, Enlisted Men for Censure, based in Palmer, Mass., seeking the censure of U.S. Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy.

Mr. Bussiere came to Yeadon in 1958 and later lived in Lansdowne until the early 1970s. He was active in the Democratic Party in Delaware County for 12 years, serving four years as the chairman of the Lansdowne Democratic Committee. He quit as chair when the National Democratic Committee backed Lyndon Johnson and, by extension, more war in Vietnam.

His work with gang members began in 1958, when he was hired by the Friends Neighborhood Guild, a Quaker organization that had a settlement house and community center in North Philadelphia. He later became a director at the Neighborhood Guild, supervising social workers and graduate students in community-improvement efforts, before leaving in 1971.

Between 1975 and 1991, he supervised the training of graduate and undergraduate students in the schools of social work at the University of Pennsylvania, Temple University, and Bryn Mawr College.

Mr. Bussiere actively opposed the Vietnam War and was a founding member of the Veterans for Peace, Philadelphia Chapter. He was active in the civil-rights movement, in efforts to preserve neighborhoods, and worked to maintain housing options for minorities in all neighborhoods.

Perhaps Mr. Bussiere's most lasting achievement was his part in getting the state to install a historical marker at Sixth and Rodman Streets, where W.E.B. DuBois lived while he researched and wrote his landmark "The Philadelphia Negro" in the 1890s.

Charles Blockson, curator of the Charles L. Blockson Afro-American Collections at Temple University, said Mr. Bussiere approached him in 1992 and asked for help getting a marker installed on the spot to honor DuBois. The two men contributed and raised money for the marker, which was installed in 1995.

Mr. Bussiere is survived by his wife of 14 years, Juliana Forsythe Brosch; daughters Elizabeth Bussiere-Nichols, Patricia Bussiere Rigby, and Ann Bussiere; a son, Merritt; and 13 grandchildren. He also is survived by Lillian Stuart, to whom he was married from 1950 until 1981.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: Megan L
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 03:19 PM

The little boy on Orkney whos skin blisters and peals of every time he is touched. Now that is heroic to suffer each day and get up each morning ready to face a new day.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 03:25 PM

Why is that heroic? He has no choice in the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 04:07 PM

You've really had a whack of the nasty stick haven't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 05:09 PM

Megan L doesn't understand what heroic means. The kid (poor little blighter, admittedly) may endure his infliction stoicly and without complaint, but he does not do so heroicly. To do that would require a choice, and obviously, in this, he has no choice whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 06:10 PM

I'd have to say Rick Fielding, although it might have embarrassed him. We had a conversation once in which he told me you never want to actually meet your heroes, because you'll be let down. I didn't agree with that. He'd already attained hero status in my mind, and I knew he wasn't perfect. Heroes, for me, are people I know. I didn't worship him - I don't worship anywone - he was my friend. I respected him.

Heroes are heroes, I believe, because of their imperfections, not in spite of them. It's how they play the hand they're dealt. He never fit in the world the way it was very well, so he created his own little corner. He might have kept trying to fit in and wound living in an alley and scarfing dumpster dumplings. Who knows what happens to people who don't fit in when they don't realise they have choices? He found something he loved and put his heart and soul into it, His love for music was like his love for Heather - it just spilled over and splashed onto everyone near him.

There have been, and are, many of Great people, who may have done Great deeds and changed the whole world for the better. None have changed my world as much as Rick. Of course, I'm talking about my personal hero here, and hopefully, everyone's got one or more of those. On the grand scale, I don't know. I tend to view most classic heroic deeds (the 'throwing one's self on a grenade' sort of thing) as simple reactions or glory-seeking.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 11:43 PM

ther are a couple of catters i greatly admire. their posts are inspoirational, smart.

yes, they are heroes to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:53 AM

You are so wrong English Patriot,

I am with Megan L, Jeri above also puts it perfectly, "It's how they play the hand they're dealt."

The youngster's condition, which as you say he has no choice in, is not the issue, it's in his attitude to that condition that he exercises choice. He could just cave in to it and feel sorry for himself. Instead he chooses to show spirit, resolve, courage and heroism, every time he smiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: Allan C.
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 10:36 AM

"It's how they play the hand they're dealt."

I do understand the point that was intended. However, whenever I see that expression I am reminded of how important it is for us, whenever possible, to do some of our own dealing. No, we never hold all the cards; but taking hold of some of them and dealing our own hands can be the very best thing we can do for ourselves. It is then that we become our own heroes.


Sometimes, though, this leaves us playing with half a deck.



Sorry, couldn't resist that last bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 05:04 AM

Firefighters, they run into burning buildings when most normal people insinct would be to run out, they could face dangerous chemicals, radiation, bombs etc.They are on duty in all kinds of weathers, work shifts, and many of them are killed and seriously injured just doing their job, all this for not a great deal of money, [they could probably earn more driving a taxi cab]!

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 06:24 AM

our own Brucie (Bruce Murdoch) is a volunteer firefighter and has been doing that for years.

okay, bruce, you're on my hero list!

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 07:08 AM

ced2.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: GUEST,Jawbone
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:03 PM

Spider-Man

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 03:10 PM

"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal." - Albert Camus

"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." - Aristotle

When in search of heroes, we should be concerned more with accomplishments rather than inner struggles, for we cannot well compare the inner struggles of others. - Steve,

And we should keep in mind "Success covers a multitude of blunders." - George Bernard Shaw

So, me, eh?
Ancient? Probably Guttenburg.
Modern? FDR and Lincoln, I guess.
Alive? Difficult. Fresh dirt tends to obscure older successes. Maybe Roy Romanow (first Canadian premier (Sask.) in the 90s to bring in a balanced budget and prove that socialism can take the lead in fiscal responsibility and realism).

Mind you, the person who achieves the most good isn't necessarily the person one most admires or wishes to emulate. That's another story.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: Allan C.
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM

The quotation steve in ottawa submitted reminds me that there are some among us who live with chronic pain every day of their lives. Often, the meds that would eliminate the pain would also render the individual unconscious. Rather than to seek painless oblivion, these people must ride a thin line between tolerable and intolerable pain in order to function more or less normally. (And when I say "tolerable," in many cases this is sometimes a degree of pain that most folks would never want to face even once.) They have every reason to whine. They have complete justification for being irritable. Yet many of them refuse to give in to those aspects of their pain. I consider these people among my heroes.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 01:08 AM

Totally forgot: Gorbachev. For letting eastern Europe go. For letting a form of democracy come to Russia. For bringing the world several steps farther from possible nuclear war. For doing the right thing, even though it cost him his power.

As for the Camus quote, I think it's directed more at the people with non-obvious problems, usually mental problems. For example, the guy who gets on the plane even though he's terrified he's going to panic, or the woman who cleans uses that public bathroom, even though she's petrified of germs.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 01:33 AM

Gorbachev is a hero of mine, too, Steve. He worked within the system, played a game, maintained status quo, until he was in the only position where he could do something, and he had the courage to do it.

"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal." - Albert Camus

there was a boy in my class that was different, everyone used to laugh at him, his clothes smelt. I met him at our old school reuinion - he was lovely. really smart, a really decent person, and working as a social worker. some people, like him, grow up in really hard circumstances, and instead of spending the rest of their lifes whinging about it, move forward and take others with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 06:01 AM

For me, someone who became a most unlikely hero was Anwar Sadat. I don't know what or who touched this man's soul to the extent that he changed his beliefs and became a man of peace and reconcilliation, but it's almost as though he were taken over by another spirit.

This is a man who must have known he was signing his death sentence on the day he stepped foot onto Israeli soil, and he did it anyway. Would there were more like him at this moment to make the hard decisions that have to be made..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 08:57 AM

All you sons of bitches out there. Here's to ya., Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 04:28 PM

Sadat, yes. At the time, I was totally unaware of how brave it was for him to make peace with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are your heroes
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 05:02 PM

Yes, I will also add Gorbachev and Sadat. Both absolutely remarkable men.