BS: A new level of terror

Subject: BS: A new level of terror
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:19 AM

I find this action extremely chilling, to use children as hostages with a threat to kill them must plumb the depths that terrorist will reach.

Child hostages


Though Russia has treated the Chechen's extremely harshly I cannot understand how the Chechen group can expect any sympathy if they carry out their threats.

Also worrying is the Russian response. Their supposed crack teams used to free hostages in the Moscow theatre ended up killing many hostages, after which the Russian Govt clammed up.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 07:47 AM

Two explosions heard

Let us hope (I dare not to say for the best under these circumstances) for an outcome better than the worst.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,mack/misophist
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:15 AM

Child or adult, a life is a life. It's the number that's the real atrocity.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 06:45 AM

It seems that the school has been stormed now. The first news about dead and injuries look better than last time in the Moscow theatre. However, back then the first news also were much better than the final count.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 07:40 AM

Yeah Wolfgang - that's the last I've heard in NZ....

Aaarrrrggghhh.... When can we all learn to be MATES and get along together, instead of blowing the shit-bags out of each other. Mumble..

My love to the good folk of the North Ossetian town of Beslan - may your kids survive the current Hell...

Peace - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 06:05 PM

As the news trickles in - it is difficult to know what to say.

The looks on the faces of those children who survived seem to say it all....

What a mess.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 06:53 PM

Agreed Shambles. The news is beyond belief. Those images are the kind that will be inprinted on our minds forever. My heart goes out to all those poor families. Beyond words.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:01 PM

It has been a distaster. 400 dead out of 1000-1200 captives. The number of captives has been kept quiet it seems by the Russian Govt.

So far Putin has kept quiet, but that seems the norm for a Russian leader (Viz the Moscow Theatre, Kursk, etc)

The BBC said that the death toll could be higher as many many injured were taken to local hospitals which would be hard pressed to cope.

This will certainly harden the Russian respnse to the Chechen independance movement which has been very bloody. The UN have done nothing and both Blare and Bush have been very quiet on the actions Russian troops have taken in Chechnya.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:15 PM

Not a nice outcome. I wonder if they find who was behind the attack, and why they did it???? What a workd we live in...

Grumpily - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:24 PM

The reason for it should be obvious, I have a feeling that Chechens will end up regreting it for a long time to come, even though the terrorists probably didn't speak for them; at least not in this instance.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 12:36 AM

What you actually have here is two groups...one with great power and one with very little power...attempting to terrorize each other into capitulation. One group is the radical Chechen fighters. The other group is the ruling civil and military powers in Russia. They both commit terrorist acts upon each other's populace. This latest terrorist act is by the Chechens. If the Russian government follows precedent it will retaliate with counter-terrorism (under a facade of "legality"...or not), and the cycle will continue.

The ordinary civilians on both sides are the ones who mostly end up paying the price for it, and it is all absolutely tragic.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:16 AM

Very true, LH. But there are some things 'beyond the pale'.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:06 AM

They are saying that at least ten of the gang were not Chechens. Nine arab and an african.
the temp in the gymn was in the nineties and with the windows closed the humidity was stifling. The tots were denied even water and were threatened with death when they cried for a drink. Many would not have survived a third day of this anyway.
Will the terror groups see the pain this has brought to us all as a wekness that they can exploit again?
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:22 AM

There is no cause worth making war on children.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Fiolar
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:34 AM

Real brave people killing children. The scum bag who planned the whole thing will no doubt be able to sleep soundly. What in the name of all that's holy does anyone gain from this? I feel as well for the officers who had to deal with it. They were damned if they did nothing and damned when they acted, especially when the terrorist thugs started firing at the children who were running away. I wonder if the terrorists who died are enjoying Paradise? Personally I hope they are roasting in Hell.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:58 AM

These things will only continue if we do exactly what the twisted minds wish us to do.

That is for us and the media to speculate endlessly on the whatever the cause may be.

I fear that we have now come to the stage, where for some of the participants the violence and their own death is the only reason. This strange state of mind is then used to try and focus the world's attention on whatever (now totally discredited) cause is supposed to be the reason.

There is no cause worth making war on children

Murder, rape and destruction are always terrible crimes - the reason why criminals commit thise crimes will never justify them. Holy Wars - The War On Terrorism - Independence - Freedom -----All bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:49 AM

This is horrific beyond words in the same way that 9/11 was.

The current article in the NYT puts the toll at "More than 340 people, including 155 children..."

Muslim fundamentalist terrorism is casting it's long, dark shadow once again. Even if non-Chechnyan Arab terrorists actually are proved to have been among the hostage takers, as the Russian government is claiming, it won't change the face of terrorism being a Muslim fundamentalist face. The Chechnyan separatists are also fighting for a Muslim fundamentalist state.

Little Hawk, the entire Arab world is denouncing not just this despicable act, but the Muslim fundamentalist terrorist response to US and Israeli imperialist aggression in the Middle East. This isn't the way to fight. It just isn't the way to fight.

The Arab press has also pointed out that jihad warriors are ultimately responsible for the destruction of one of Islam's holiest cities, Najaf, where they intentionally entered the city and the shrine to create a stand-off between themselves and the American forces by holding an entire city and one of Islam's holiest shrines hostage.

You are right to point out that the US is not alone in it's repression of the Arab and Muslim peoples of the Middle East in the wars for oil. Russia is complicit in that war, as is Israel, Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, China, and all the other major oil consuming nation players.

But this jihad terrorism simply must be stopped. Unfortunately, it is also playing right into Putin, Sharon, and Bush's hands. Those fascist leaders will all benefit in popularity at home, from the barbarism the Muslim fundamentalist terrorist keep exhibiting with their more and more desperate measures.

There is no defending any of them, but there is especially no defense of taking a school full of children and their parents hostage.

BTW, I believe the Russians couldn't be worse at dealing with these hostage crises. Incredibly, NO amubulances were at the scene. The Russian security forces hadn't established a perimeter around the grounds, apparently, as some of the terrorists are believed to have escaped. There didn't seem to be any high government or military level involvement on the scene. It was just appalling, on so many levels.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:22 PM

Well, of course it must be stopped, and I also condemn it. There are a number of other things that must be stopped too. To look at the problem in isolation will not help matters.

The problem with Jihad fighters is that they are looking at a problem in isolation only.

The problem with George Bush is the same.

They both see only the evil they choose to see...and in reacting to it they commit further evil.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:22 PM

17 Mudcat posts in almost two days, don't most Americans care about dead innocent Russians?

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:19 PM

Some of us grieve quitely, Big Tim.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:20 PM

*quietly*

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:30 PM

does anyone have any figures on the number of iraqi children killed by US bombs and soldiers over the last year and a half? just wondering.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:00 PM

Aye, right Carol C, heard that one before.                     

Grieve "quietly" for dead innocent Russians, but "very loudly" for dead innocent Americans.                                       

By innocent, I mean non-combatant.

The answer is in the couldn't care less absence of sympathetic posts from American Mudcatters for those non-combatant dead Russians.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:45 PM

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:47 PM

We have set up a blog for the posting of condolences for the people of Beslan Russia. If you'd care to post messages of support and sympathy please visit http://russianchildren.blogspot.com/. This came about after an American Mudcatter posted a thread asking if anyone knew of such a spot online. Relevant messages will be forwarded to the townsfolk.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:55 PM

Big Tim nailed it. Hallmark doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:09 PM

Please don't speak for me Big Tim. I'm one human being. I'm speaking for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:16 PM

What nationality are you, Big Tim, so I can determne which broad sweeping generalizations I want to apply to you and your kind?

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:21 PM

I expect he is a human, and one who felt moved enough to comment.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:23 PM

No, GUEST. Not comment. Criticize how others experience grief.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:24 PM

Save it.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:25 PM

Save it yourself, GUEST. I'm hurting too.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:53 PM

This forum is following a disturbing but not new trend to equalize everything, Chechen children, Iraqi civilians, "Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists", George Bush, all countries which conduct foreign policy, it's all 'so tragic'. But you blur all distinctions and soon there is nothing useful to say.

The obvious thing to stick to is that a thousand innocent civilians were put to torture and murder by a band of (highly likely) Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists who did not even clearly get a message across. No, strike that, their message was crystal clear. George Bush wasn't there, Vladimir Putin wasn't there. In fact, I heard it on NPR that Putin said that retaliatory action would be treated as a terrorist act.

I would take issue with the title of the thread in that it is nothing new for this type of terrorist to perform this kind of act. In 1974 3 heavily armed Palestinian terrorists took over a school in northern Israel and before the school was rescued, 24 teachers and students lost their lives. As for scale, September 11 in US and the recent train bombings in Spain are equivalent. There is an implacable foe which can justify attacking within their victim's most tender and unguarded sites, with a purpose of inflicting pain and suffering.

There is a growing perception on the part of our societies that this is a new kind of war. All that terror is going to do is reinforce those primary actors to redouble their efforts to blot each other off the map. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and as Tevye says "pretty soon the world will be eyeless and toothless." But, technology has made it much more likely that these warriors of terror will get their hands on WMDs. THAT's where the new level of terror has come in. And 'W', whatever else you and I might think about him is 'on message' when he says: "That is why Iraq."

If you want to judge events from a lofty perspective and make all things equal, fine. You can equalize all wars. Napoleon with the Duke of Wellington, Churchill with Hitler, Jewish civilians with the SS, Hirohito with Roosevelt, people on buses and in trains going to school and work with Hamas and the PFLP. But you might as well lift yourself to the distance of the Voyager spacecraft and you can look back at the pretty blue marble and feel SO much better than those people who are looking at things with 'isolation' or too narrow a focus.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:11 PM

The hurtful truth: All terrorists of the world are Muslims (Asharq al-Awsat)

Our terrorist sons are the endproduct of our culture, Most suicide attacks worldwide in the last ten years on buses, schools, have been done by Muslims. (Abdulrahman al Rasched, from Al Arabija TV)

Even the enemies of Islam couldn't have done such a big damage as the sons of Islam have by their stupidity, their errors, and their wrong view of the nature of this era (Al Ahram)

One way to stop terrorist attacks is if the culture from which they come withdraws any support. Very slowly these days, I see that starting in the Muslim world. That's a ray of hope in the disaster.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:13 PM

I work with guys and gals who are silent at accident scenes because their senses are shocked. They then respond to other scenes like that because someone has to. When you see grown men and women working a scene with professionalism and calm, it's very easy to assume we don't care. Visit us back at the hall when we have done all we can do and it hasn't been enough to save a mother and father the most terrible anguish they'll ever know. You come dry our tears and tell us we don't care.

CarolC does not deserve this particular shit and abuse. The woman--whom I have never met and likely never will meet, and with whom I have had more arguments than anyone else on the 'cat, is a good human being, and to suggest she doesn't care is an egregious wrong. People mourn in manners of their own choosing. Allow her the same rights you accord yourselves.

Sorry to speak 'for' you Carol; we'll likely be back to arguing in a week or two, but now ain't the time.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:54 PM

I don't understand the concept of people judging other people by their silence. Expressing grief, as CarolC said, is very individualistic.

The person who prays the loudest is not necessarily the most spiritual. The person(s) to whom expressing grief is easy is not necessarily the one who is feeling it the most.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 11:11 PM

Big Tim - I have friends there, and have spent the last days corresponding with them rather than posting here. Is that okay with you?

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: sledge
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 12:49 AM

After watching film after film of those Families searching for their children it becomes overwhelming, the pain, anguish and grief etched in every line on every face is such that trying to find the right words, even for a short message becomes a struggle.

My thoughts are with them night and day.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 01:54 AM

Tim,

I guess I just can't figure out a way to answer you on this. It just doesn't matter what I say. You and others will say it's too little or too late or too typically American.

Since you don't know me you don't know what I feel. Or how this has shocked my family. You don't know what American Churches will be saying today when their congregations file in. You don't know how American ethnic communities will join together and send what ever help is needed to the afflicted.

I can post a rant here about how awful things are. About how evil has raised it's head and Americans are doing nothing to help fight the villians. But beyond a great group revelation of shock and shame it will be a hollow rant with no real power to resolve anything.

Like most people around the world you only know Americans by our governmental process and our military presence and the way we are portrayed in your press and on your TV. You only know the Americans who go tourist around the world and spend American dollars and behave baddly like... tourists.

You don't know the Americans who stay at home and give blood or clothes or send medical supplies to Estonia or computers to South African Schools. You never met my family who annually sends a few thousand dollars to The Heiffer Project. Go ahead and whine that thats typically American to send money. But it is money we have and there are many in need. If I gave $100.00 to a Montagnard family it would be taken away by their headman in the village or the larger government in power. But if I give that money to Heiffer that Monagnard Family gets chickens and seed and tools.

But since you don't know me or I you I guess I have to expect insults
because you are as frustrated as I and you know just how powerless we are to do anything against such inhumane actions by terrorists against so helpless a victim.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 04:06 AM

Carol C, Don: no personal criticism were made by me.

I'm just amazed that after 3 days, there has still been only 39 posts.
If this had happened in America, cyberspace would be log-jammed by this time. (btw, I'm an Irish citizen).

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:41 AM

There is no lack of compassion in US or otherMudcat nationals, but there is a pattern in how disasters lead to threads being started and contributed to.
See how the thread on the Bali massacre began two days after the event.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 06:08 AM

The reaction is different and probably understandable and it is not really helpful to critise our reactions to these things. We all need to focus together and save our blame on those who cause all this, to try and ensure that it is prevented. We need the time to take it all in.

We are probably and sadly just getting used to such horror. Part of us now expects this terror, sacrifice and unfeeling inhumanity to increase and we try and protect part of ourself from the true extent of our feelings of care and despair.

And whatever we say or do - just seems more and more futile in the face of it.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 11:28 AM

Well nice going, Big Tim. You've made this a thread about Americans insead of the innocent Russian children and their stricken families whom this thread is supposed to be about. But seeing as how you're Irish, I guess you must have been drunk when you made that post.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 12:10 PM

Congratulations, Carol, for stooping to a new low. What good is it to continue the mud-slinging stereotypes? Have any of you followed the link I put up?

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 12:16 PM

What good is it to continue the mud-slinging stereotypes?

It is to show how stupid they are, katlaughing. I would have thought you would have the subtlety to see that for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 12:21 PM

Bye

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 01:26 PM

Hardly, Carol, it just perpetuates the crap. You've been here long enough to know we've had whole threads about stereotyping and does no good to engage in mutual mud-slinging.

I repeat, have any of you signed the condolences blog?

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 01:31 PM

Thanks Carol, keep it up, you're doing great.               

Begorrah, having sobered up, dusted down my shamrocks,decommissioned my weapons of mass destruction: I'd like to suggest that someone start a new thread, preferably with the word "Beslan" in the title, or perhaps, "Russian massacre"', which might be more recognisable in more insular necks of woods.

btw, why do Americans think it's ok for them to have have weapons of mass destruction and not other countries,like Iran for example? Too many fundamentalists?

Back to the booze now.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 03:13 PM

No Tim, you should have started a thread about responses to disasters.

This is not the place for such a discussion. I am sorry I joined in with it.

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 03:13 PM

A significant percentage of my own ancestry is Irish, katlaughing, and I know what a pile of crap that stereotype is, just as I know what a pile of crap the stereotype is that Big Tim is promoting.

We're all individuals, Big Tim. I get attacked just as often for criticizing the US as I do for being a US citizen. It gets a bit old after a while. If you're so concerned with the tragedy in Russia, why not just stick to the subject instead of dealing with your anger towards the terrorists by beating up Americans? Or maybe you don't really care about the innocent Russian children and their parents. Maybe you just enjoy beating up Americans and this was a convenient place for you to do it.

As far as my response to this thragedy, I'll deal with it in my own way, and in my own time.