Arabic & African names in English songs & stories

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 06:52 AM

No takers for Sofia the Saracen's daughter then?
(The actual heroine of Lord Bateman, to quote Shirley Collins).
This is one of the most miraculous (and widespread) medieval tales.
Not to mention the probable genesis of Thomas Becket.
(This would, of course, involve discounting the mondegreen that sets it in Torquay and throws doubt on her being a Turkish princess at all).

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 07:17 AM

The Turkish lady is sometimes Susie Pie. If it is Sophia it's more likely to be Christian (and therefore Greek) rather than Turkish/ Islamic. But anyway English folk geography doesn't seem to distinguish between North Africa (Barbary, Moors), Turkey, the Middle East and "The Indies".

Diane, are you saying that if it wasn't for Lord Bateman, we wouldn't have had Waiting For Godot?

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: IanC
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 07:24 AM

Greg ... isn't that usually known as the Heel & Toe Polka, though?

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 07:37 AM

Sofia (as in the text used by Natacha Atlas quoted above who wasn't even aware that there was an English ballad called Lord Bateman) is also Susha or indeed most names beginning with 's'. And 'Bateman' has even more.

Historically, the most convincing documentation is that Thomas Becket's mother was from France, but this does not preclude Arabic/Berber origin. It's still an absolutely rivetting tale worthy of the bravest and most ingenious asylum seeker to have sought out 'Bateman' after 7 years (isn't it always?) and got the proud porter to fetch her food and wine and bring a swift end to the wedding party.

If it wasn't for Bateman we certainly wouldn't have had Murder In The Cathedral. As for Waiting For Godot, you may need to delve further back to the Synod Of Whitby but, try as I might, I can't bring a black/asian reference into that.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:24 AM

IanC: yes it is often called the Heel and Toe Polka because of a fun dance associated with it, but I believe the Sultan's Polka is the older title.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Grab
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:48 AM

Re the Moors, Shakespeare and co would *have* to have distinguished between Moors and other Muslims - for the simple fact that the Moors would have been a major element of European politics in recent English history. Until they got pushed out, the Moors owned Spain and Portugal, which puts them at the southern boundary of France. England owned northern and some western France, and there was plenty of fighting between the French and English. I wouldn't doubt that the Moors, holding the southern border with France, would have had extensive links with both sides to see what they could get out of it.

For the name Othello, I remembered hearing of the name "Otho". Looking it up, turns out there was a Roman emperor called "Otho".

Re Gunga Din, I don't know Indian names, but it's not for definite that "Din" here is from Arabic - India is also Sikh and Hindu.

I think we've been here before - there's a danger in assuming that similarity between words (or even the exact same word) means that they mean the same thing. There's only so many syllables to go round, after all. :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 09:59 AM

No, I disagree with that Graham. By Shakespeare's time, Aquitaine had been lost to England for 150 years, and in any case Muslims had been driven out of northern Spain hundreds of years earlier- only Granada remained Moslem by the 14th century. The Crusades had familiarised Christendom with the fact that Islam maintained a great deal of linguistic and cultural unity as well as the religious connection- several crusades targetted North Africa. It's clear that they did distinguish between African Blacks and the peoples of North Africa/ Arabia/ Turkey (who seem to have been lumped together), and Othello was certainly meant to be the former, hence the racial insults like "thick lips" used by Iago. But was this distinction a new one? At the start of the 17th century, the European rape of sub- Saharan Africa was beginning to develop and (Black) slaves were first taken in serious numbers.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 10:01 AM

Graham,

Re: "Othello", Sue Browden's The New Age Baby Name Book {p. Workman Publishing 1987, p.312} gives this male name as an Italian form of the name "Otto". The meaning given in that book is "prosperous one". I've also seen the name "Otho" and the name "Otto" given the meaning "wealth".

Sue Browden writes this: "Old German"; Modern German form of an older name-Odo-which was introduced into England by the Normans and was used occasionally in England in the nineteenth century. Otto is now used in many countries....[variant forms are] Otik, Oto {Czech}; Othon {French}; Otho, Otfried, Ottocar, Ottomar {German}; Otello, Ottone {Italian}; Audr, Odo {Norwegian}, Onek, Otek, Oton, Otton, Tonek {Polish}; Otilio, Otman, Oto, Oton, Tilo {Spanish}.
-snip-

After reading this list, one question I would ask is where did the Spanish get the name "Otman" from? Given the Moorish influence in Spain, it's very possible that the answer is from the Arabic language and its male name, "Uthman". But maybe Browden is incorrect that Otman is a form of Otto [?]

The meaning of the Arabic male name "Uthman" is usually given as "friend of Muhammad" or "the name of the third Caliph". However, etymologically {if that's the correct word I'm looking for} Uthman means "baby bustard". A bustard is a crane-like bird.

I'm not sure what a baby bustard symbolized among ancient Arabic speaking people. But because the third Caliph's name was Uthman, that name appears to have taken on the status connotations associated with someone who was a "caliph" and a "friend of Muhammad".

Those status {royalty?} connotations cause me to wonder if the meanings given to Otto-"prosperous one" or "wealth"-could have grafted onto the name Otman. Is this a case of two similarly spelled names having similar meanings but having two different etymologies? A different question is could the name "Othello" have come from two sources- Arabic and German?

Apparently there has been an ongoing debate among Shakespearian scholars about the etymology of the name Othello. If the stymolgy was clear cut, it seems to me there wouldn't be any debate {or discussion} about that etymology.

**

http://www.20000-names.com/male_u_names.htm is my source for the "baby bustard" meaning for Uthman.

**

http://www.answers.com/topic/caliph gives this definition for "caliph" :

ca·liph also ca·lif or kha·lif (kā'lĭf, kăl'ĭf)
n.

A leader of an Islamic polity, regarded as a successor of Muhammad and by tradition always male.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 10:15 AM

Hey folks, let's have a contest!

Who'll be the first one to correctly answer this question:

What is the name of the main female character in the gothic novel by the popular Victorian author H. Rider Haggard?

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:16 PM

Otman-Othman: Germanic or areas with Germanic influence. (= Otto)
Otman-Othman: Turkish or areas influenced by Ottoman Turks, such as the Balkans.
No relationship between the two that I can find.
In Spain the name is not current- ?may have been used in the Moorish days.

Who, She?

Ayesha? I think I was about 12 when I read this tale.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:55 PM

KUDOS!!! to Q. {Why am I not surprised that he knew this answer?}

Here's some information about the Ayesha novels by Victorian author H. Rider Haggard, novels which I confess I have not yet read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayesha_(novel)

**

Also, here's some info from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayesha

Ayesha can refer to:

Ayesha (name)
Ayesha (novel), a 1905 novel by Henry Rider Haggard; the main evil character, "Ayesha" figures in a series of novels, of which this is one
Ayesha Takia, a Bollywood actress
Aisha, the wife of the prophet Mohammed
Ayesha (woreda), a district in Ethiopia; and
Ayesha, Ethiopia, a town in that district

-snip-

Wikipedia's page on the etymology of the name Ayesha provides this information:

"The girl's name Ayesha is of different originalities, In Persian its meaning is "womanly". It also means sporty, active. 'Ayesha' also means beautiful, or life in Arabic. 'Ayesha' is also sometimes misspelled 'Aisha', which is a different name altogether, meaning "she who lives" in Arabic. In Bosnian it is spelled Aiša. Ayesha is a common female first name, in countries such as the United States, where it was ranked 2020 out of 4275 for females of all ages in the 1990 US Census. The same survey found that Ayesha is a rare surname and it was not ranked for people of all ages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayesha_%28name%29

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:58 PM

Among African Americans, there are a lot of different spellings of the name Ayesha {and related names}. Some examples are:

Aisha

Aesha

Ayisah

and

Aiesha

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 09:04 PM

How about another contest question? This one is easy. As a matter of fact, because it's so easy, I'm gonna make it a three parter:

1.What is the name of the novel about a whale whose captain had both a Hebrew personal name and an Arabic personal name?

2.What two names did the captain use for himself in that novel?

3. Which of those names is from the Hebrew language, and which is from the Arabic language?

???

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:39 AM

Whales don't have captains, Azizi.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 05:16 AM

So PMB, how do you know that? How many whales have you talked to lately? :o)

Okay, okay. I made a mistake. I meant to ask this

1.What is the name of the novel about a whale in which the captain of the whaling ship had both a Hebrew personal name and an Arabic personal name?

**

If you or any one else is the first to pull the correct answer to each one of these questions or all of the answers to this 3 part question, would you please proclaim yourself-or whomever else-the winner as after I finish this post I'm going back to catch up on my sleep.

May I have pleasant dreams and may there be a winner when I return back to this august community.

{Get it? august. I think that's pretty good for 5:15 in the morning} if I do say so myself!}

:o)

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 05:18 AM

pull=post

And with that, I'm so outta here!

PMB, thanks for the smiles!

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Grab
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 09:23 AM

Sure, PMB - by Shakespeare's time, the Moors had lost Spain/Portugal and England had lost Aquitaine. But 150 years is well within recorded history, when his plays were covering historical events much earlier than that (eg. Agincourt). OK, it's pure conjecture on my part, but I'd be surprised if they'd already forgotten that the Moors were separate from Turks, Arabs and other Muslims.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 10:41 AM

Well, according to one prominent writer on the subject, Dr. Imtiaz Habib, what notions of race the Elizabethans had were hopelessly confused, as they routinely combined Africans with Arabs, [and] Indians [with] south Asians and pre-Columbian Americans ... Indeed ... blacks and Indians were necessarily interchangeable in the Elizabethan popular mind..

It's instructive to compare this with the names used for the antagonists in mummers' plays: Prince Saladin, Blackamoor, Black Morocco King....

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:02 AM

Sorry, that was I.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:20 AM

Not sure that I ever read beyond "Call me Ishmael". Ishmael was the narrator, the Captain was Ahab and there was another character called Elijah all of which are Hebrew names as far as I know. Can't find any refereence to the Captain calling himself anything else.

The novel was of course Moby Dave Dick.

(Still trying to get my head round "'Ayesha' is also sometimes misspelled 'Aisha', which is a different name altogether".

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:33 AM

Yeah, Snail!

Moby Dick, Ahab, and Ishmael were the responses I was looking for.

As to Ishmael being Hebrew, yes. But, there is a version of that name that is Arabic:

Isma'il - A Prophet's name (Ishmael)

http://www.sudairy.com/arabic/masc.html

So I phrased the question wrong. So sue me :o}

**

As for Aisha being a different name than Ayesha, maybe to Arabic speaking people. But African Americans have all sorts of phonetic and unique spellings for various personal names-some which make sense given the pronunciation of the name, and some , imo, are over the top. {meaning, a bit too much}.

But in cultures where the elements of a word don't mean any specific thing {unlike Hebrew for instance where "el" signifies God], and there is little regard for what a name means, changing the spelling of a name is a creative act.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:53 AM

Re: Saladin

See this info from http://www.allbiographies.com/biography-Saladin-28014.html

"Saladin
in full Salah al-Din Yussuf ibn Ayub
lived: (1137–93)

biography: Sultan of Egypt and Syria, the leader of the Muslims against the crusaders in Palestine, born in Tekrit, Mesopotamia. He entered the service of Nur al-din, Emir of Syria, and on his death (1174) proclaimed himself sultan, asserted his authority over Mesopotamia, and received the homage of the Seljuk princes of Asia Minor. His remaining years were occupied in wars with the Christians, whom he defeated near Tiberias in 1187, recapturing almost all their fortified places in Syria. The Third Crusade, headed by the kings of France and England, captured Acre in 1191, and he was defeated."

**

Pittsburgh, PA had an African American city councilman 1995-2005 who had changed his name {during the late 1960s or early 1970s} to
Sala Udin. He and everybody else pronounced his name SAH-lah DEEN}. Btw, he was not Muslim.

**

Here's the meaning of the names Sala and Sala al Din from various online/offline sources:

Salah - Righteousness
Salah al Din - Righteousness of the Faith; name of the Muslim leader who liberated Jerusalem from the Crusaders

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:02 PM

Gibraltar(Jebel al Tarik) is a pretty famous name in British history(not to mention Spanish history etc etc). I fancy Tarik was an Arab first name.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Grab
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 01:18 PM

Interesting quote, PMB - thanks for the info. Looks like they'd forgotten more than I would have expected then. (Although confusion of Amerindians and Indian Indians is not unexpected, given that Columbus thought he'd hit India.)

Re the name Othello, I guess it's also perfectly possible we're all barking up the wrong tree. Like asking George Lucas what the etymology for "Chewbacca" was. ;-)

Snail, if you never got past that opening line, you saved yourself an exercise in boredom. Hospitals could use that book as an anaesthetic - and if it doesn't put the patients to sleep straight away, get out the hardback version to club them over the head with hundreds of pages of wasted words.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 01:48 PM

Azizi, you will have trouble relating African-American 'Muslim' usage, especially the Black Muslim, to Middle Eastern-Asian Islam. There seems to have been selection from more than one source and then remelding into the so-called Black Muslims.
I cannot speak on the differences, since I know nothing of the African-American variety. We have many Muslims here and there is a large masjid (mosque) not far from me; but I don't know of Black members there.

The relatively small percentage of Blacks here call themselves Canadian, British, Trinidadian, Kenyan or etc.; descendants of former U. S. slaves or freed men call themselves Canadian, no hyphens. When I first came here, there was a small Black Baptist? church here, but I haven't heard of it lately.
The small Ethiopian group here seems to be mostly Coptic Christian and evangelicals.

Captain Ahab had another name?? There was his Parsi servant who had an 'Arabic' name, but I can't remember it.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 02:00 PM

Azizi

Moby Dick, Ahab, and Ishmael were the responses I was looking for.

Ahab, and Ishmael were different characters not different names for the same character.

My problem with Ayesha/Aisha is only one of logic, not true meaning. If someone writes Aisha, how do you know if they are misspelling Ayesha or if they really meant Aisha ("which is a different name altogether"(allegedly))

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 02:08 PM

Well you got me there. I've never read Moby Dick.

Re your comment about logic, to paraphase a once popular Tina Turner song "What's logic gotta do with it?"

Among Black Americans, Ayesha, Aisha, Aesha ete etc etc are all pronounced the same. It's the sound of a name and not its etymology that is important to most Americans-Black and non-Black.

And increasingly-among Black in the USA anyway, the look of a name is also important.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 04:53 AM

Any traditional song that mentions Trafalgar contains an arabic word as Trafalgar stems from an arabic name!
ifor

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 06:13 AM

Azizi, you will have trouble relating African-American 'Muslim' usage, especially the Black Muslim, to Middle Eastern-Asian Islam
-Q

Q, with all due respect, I have mentioned in this thread that the study of names & naming traditions is an interest of mine. I consider my self a student of that subject. And like any student should, I spend a lot of time studying it-particularly in regards to African American naming traditions.

I also believe that I mentioned in this thread that some African Americans have self-selected or given their babies traditional Arabic names.

In addition, I mentioned that some African Americans have created contemporary names that are based on traditional Arabic names.

I also have written in this thread that many African Americans have changed the spelling of traditional Arabic names.

Furthermore, I have written in this thread that most African Americans who have Arabic names are or names based on Arabic names are not Muslim.

I did not & don't intend to stray from the subject of this thread to talk about the many other naming traditions that Black Americans have, and how {not whether] those traditions have influenced the naming traditions of non-Black Americans and other people in the world. Some may consider whether that influence is entirely, or partly positive or negative. But as I said, I'm not gonna go there in this thread.

I'm also not going to stray from the subject of this thread to talk about the religious group that was formerly known as Black Muslims. Again, that is not the subject of this thread.

But I will say that whether or not Arabic speaking people or any other people approve of, like, love, are neutral to, dislike, or detest African American naming traditions is their opinion and their problem, and not mine. And I dare say that most African Americans will agree with me on that point.

Again, Q, I say this in all due respect for you, a respect I might add, that I have given to others on this thread, and to you and to others on other Mudcat threads to which I post.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 06:36 AM

I've just found myself humming a song my mother used to sing:

"I've a little black dolly named Topsy
Who doesn't like sleeping alone,
For she is afraid of white bogeys,
Though I'm perfectly sure there are none..."


Sickly late Victorian stuff indeed. I suppose the name is from Uncle Tom's cabin.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:07 PM

Here's another contest question:

William Butler Yeats wrote about a queen whose name is often connected with someone who is said to have been very wise.

What are the names of these two people?

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:14 PM

Since time keeps on ticking away, and having waited long enough for a correct response {Ha! any response to my question about Yeats, I've decided to post the answers to that question.

William Butler Yeats wrote about a queen whose name is often connected with someone who is said to have been very wise.

What are the names of these two people?

The answer is:

The Queen of Sheba {also known as Makeda and Bilqis} and Solomon.

["Bilqis" is an Arabic name].

Here's one of Yeats' poems that mention Sheba & Soloman:


SOLOMON AND SHEBA
by William Butler Yeats.

Sang Solomon to Sheba,
And kissed her dusky face,
"All day long from mid-day
We have talked in the one place,
All day long from shadowless noon
We have gone round and round
In the narrow theme of love
Like a old horse in a pound.-
To Solomon sang Sheba,
Plated on his knees,
"If you had broached a matter
That might the learned please,
You had before the sun had thrown
Our shadows on the ground
Discovered that my thoughts, not it,
Are but a narrow pound.'
Said Solomon to Sheba,
And kissed her Arab eyes,
"There's not a man or woman
Born under the skies
Dare match in learning with us two,
And all day long we have found
There's not a thing but love can make
The world a narrow pound.'

http://quotations.about.com/cs/poemlyrics/a/Solomon_To_Sheb.htm

And here's another one:

Solomon and the Witch

And thus declared the Arab lady:
"Last night where under the wild moon
On grassy mattress I had lain me,
        Within my arms great Solomon,
I suddenly cried out in a strange tongue
Not his, not mine."
                        And he that knew
All sounds by bird or angel sung
Answered: "A crested cockerel crew
Upon a blossoming apple bough
Three hundred years before the Fall,
And never crew again till now,
And would not now but that he thought,
Chance being at one with Choice at last,
All that the brigand apple brought
And this foul world were dead at last.
He that crowed out eternity
Thought to have crowed it in again.
A lover with a spider's eye
Will found out some appropriate pain,
Aye, though all passion's in the glance,
For every nerve: lover tests lover
With cruelties of Choice and Chance;
And when at last the murder's over
Maybe the bride-bed brings despair,
For each an imagined image brings
And finds a real image there;
Yet the world ends when these two things,
Though several, are a single light,
When oil and wick are burned in one;
Therefore a blessed moon last night
Gave Sheba to her Solomon."
"Yet the world stays":
                        "If that be so,
Your cockerel found us in the wrong
Although it thought it worth a crow.
Maybe an image is too strong
Or maybe is not strong enough"

"The night has fallen; not a sound
In the forbidden sacred grove,
Unless a petal hit the ground,
Nor any human sight within it
But the crushed grass where we have lain;
And the moon is wilder every minute.
Oh, Solomon! Let us try again."

        -- William Butler Yeats

http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/407.html


**
Also, see this BBC article on the Queen of Sheba:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/cultures/sheba_02.shtml

**
In addition, see this thread for comments about the name "Makeda":

thread.cfm?threadid=101762&messages=135
BS: Does Being Dark Matter?

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:26 PM

I meant to post directly to this comment:

thread.cfm?threadid=101762&messages=135#2126611

Some additional posts related to that name [in various and sundry ways-follow that one.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 06:33 AM

Azizi

Since time keeps on ticking away, and having waited long enough for a correct response

Sorry Azizi, I did quote a bit from the poem on your Dark Matters thread. Great poem; I think it means "We are the two wisest people on Earth and we've talked about it all day now get 'em off".

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 08:54 AM

Is that what that poem meant?

Gee, I didn't know that.

LOL!