BS: Lets play blame the conservative

Subject: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 06:33 PM

full text of article

The confrontation with Colin McNickle, editorial page editor of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, took place Sunday night after she addressed delegates from her home state of Pennsylvania.

********************************************************************
Heinz Kerry's remark came after she told the delegates that "we need to turn back some of the creeping un-Pennsylvanian and sometimes un-American traits that are coming into some of our politics."
*********************************************************************

As she was leaving, McNickle asked her what she had meant by her use of the word "un-American."

She argued with him, insisting she hadn't said "un-American."

He said he thought she had used the term "un-American activity."

"I did not say activity or un-American," she responded.

She then turned to someone nearby and said, "You know what the question is? Say that I called this an 'un-American activity.' I did not."

After stepping away and speaking briefly with Democratic organizers of the event, she returned and asked the reporter if he worked for the Tribune-Review. He said he did.

"Understandable. You said something I didn't say, now shove it," she told him.


So, is it a requirement to say something, then deny having said it? Isn't this what the Left has been complaining about with the Bush administration? Or are the rules different when you like someone?

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 06:38 PM

I had thought that he was asking for clarification- since he had not heard all of it correctly. But since he was from the "wrong" paper, he gets attacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 06:47 PM

Sure, okay, what's the catch?

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 06:57 PM

Are the rules different? It seems to me that the Left has not cut the Bush administration any slack- so they don't plan to hold their own people to the same standards they want to hold their opponants? Seems a mite hypocritical, to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:03 PM

Both sides seem hypocritical to me, bb. It looks to me like you choose the one you think is the least hypocritical.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:14 PM

Just seen the encounter on UK TV. I caught it out of context, without knowing the background, but saw enough to form a view that the behaviour of Kerry's wife was arrogant and objectionable.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:22 PM

Person one says "x"

Person two asks "did you say "x"?

Person one says NO!... Shove it!


Seems like a reasonable person would call person one a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,mack/misophist
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:24 PM

My impression was that the reporter was pushing it. Remember, Kerry doesn't have Altzheimer's, so his wife won't be the one who's really in command. Not like Ronnie.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:26 PM

and the reporters aren't?....many of the reporters make a LIVING asking distorting and leading questions of public figures, trying to get then to say anything that can be turned into a meta-story which has little to do with the real issue. Why is it wrong when Heinz slips and tells someone off, but ok when Dick Cheney does?
The real point is, the reporter WAS distorting what the woman had tried to say, no matter what the actual words were.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:27 PM

I guess rich liberals get a special rulebook that the conservatives are not allowed to use...

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:30 PM

BillD:

"As she was leaving, McNickle asked her what she had meant by her use of the word "un-American."

She argued with him, insisting she hadn't said "un-American."

He said he thought she had used the term "un-American activity."

"I did not say activity or un-American," she responded.


So, a reporter is not supposed to ask the anointed royalty of the convention any questions? I thought only the Clintons had immunity for their words and actions...

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 08:41 PM

Both sides are hypocrytical. The reason some people are inclined to support the Left is simply that they feel the overall policies of the Right are more damaging. It is certainly not because hypocrisy is found only on the Right. :-)

When Americans agree strenuously with a policy they often call it "un-American", because it's not what they figure THEY would do. That's typical thinking, isn't it?

For instance, opponents of the Patriot Act consider it un-American. People in support of the Patriot Act consider opposition to the Patriot Act to be un-American. Ho hum. (I laugh at the collective folly of partisan opinions.)

The key thing about the Patriot Act, in my opinion, is that it's un-democratic. That's more important than whether it's un-American, because nobody can really define what "American" means in that context with any final authority, and nobody outside the borders of the USA gives a damn whether or not anything is "un-American"! But they do give a damn whether or not it's un-democratic (and I ain't talkin' about the Democratic Party when I use that word).

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 08:53 PM

The problem is that these things become like the children's game of "telephone"---you pass the word around and by the time it arrives at the end it is quite different than at the start.

The old cliche applies---you had to be there.   One does not really know from second hand reports how much annoyances were propounded by the press---or not propounded---to make the retort made.

I just came back from a confrontational budget meeting about a local organization which I chair. Knowing that we were going nowhere by re-telling the same things I called for a vote--my comment---"let us cut to the chase"---OK perhaps more benign than Ms Heinz-Kerry's remark. But perhaps she had more cause--I do not know. Frankly, I wanted to ask the other to cut the crap already and let us decide---but diplomacy required "cut to the chase".

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 08:57 PM

Maybe she didn't remember saying un-American - I saw the video, she was clarly speaking off the cuff. That doesn't excuse the "Shove it." or the fact that she hasn't apologized afterwards when she saw the proof on video.

Now that being said, if the reporter represents a paper that is generally unflattering to the Kerrys, then I can understand why she said it.


The part I found funny was she was calling people un-American when she wasn't born here herself!

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:07 PM

bruce..mixing rhetorical sarcasm and hyperbolé into your posts does not prove ANY point. "anointed royalty" "rich liberals"....no, there is no special rule book. And there is not one for "rich conservatives", either....though THEY often act like it.

you ignored MY point, which was that the reporter was TROLLING for controversy, and trying to make Heinz defend something she had not meant...and probably did not remember the exact words she had used. Should she have have been quicker on the uptake and asked the reporter, "did I really use those exact words? I could have chosen better--surely you don't think I meant THAT!"...yep, I guess he should have...but in this case, the reporters motives were a bit clearer than Teresa's.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:44 PM

Good thing Theresa's not the one who's running for president, right beardedbruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:52 PM

Frankly, I don't see EITHER side working for the overall good of the community (as neighborhood, town, city, county, state, or nation). Ya pick the one you think will do the greatest good and the least harm. Sometimes, ya pick the one you think will do the least harm.

It's a helluva way to decide who will control nuclear bombs, ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:59 PM

What a troll of a thread. Shove it AND go F yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 11:13 PM

Me above. Here's the deal. We were told we were hypocrites for posting to threads about Iraq without first posting to threads about Sudan. Maybe I'll pay attention to any pissing and moaning about Ms. Heinz-Kerry's "Shove it" only after *someone* posts to a thread denouncing Cheney's "Go F yourself".

It's all a partisan crock. More scoring of points at the expense of meaningful debate and progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 11:22 PM

Forget "un-American." If I were the reporter, I would have asked her what she meant by "un-Pennsylvanian"?

"Un-Pennsylvanian?" I mean, really! No wonder she seems to have blocked out any memory of what she had said!

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 12:46 AM

Well, Bruce, it's nice to know that since you now realize the incredibly trivial nature of this particular world-shaking issue, you'll now be strongly supporting Kerry. Even you probably realize the difference between Mrs. Kerry blurting out something-- (how much of a stranglehold do you think she has on the political process?)----and Cheney's impromptu suggestion, also perhaps unfortunately blunt. Cheney, it's well known, has clout in the Bush regime.

Bush and Cheney before the 9-11 Commission --Calvin Trilling (as I remember it)
"I cannot do without my Nanny Dick"
"He gives me facts I always seem to lack"
"I cannot do without my Nanny Dick"
"He's the one who knows why we invaded Iraq"

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 07:18 AM

The Bushites are showing their desperation.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 07:43 AM

yeh lets....they got it coming

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 08:47 AM

"Un-Pennsylvanian"?!? Well, that is really shocking! Having been to Pennsylvania and seen its glories, I can only shiver at the thought of it. They ought to erect a wall around the state so that this sort of thing can't happen any longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 11:41 AM

a country that elect somebody as weird as Arnold Schwarznegger to public office should be grateful for small mercies.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 11:47 AM

Wee, Arnie was elected in California.

To an American, that explains all of it.

But why blame ANYONE? I, for one, am damned sick and tired of finding fault and casting blame. Why not (and this is a radical new way of thinking) use the time, effort, and money to solve the bloody problem instead???????

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 11:53 AM

Rapaire:

Wonderful concept -- let's run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


A

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 01:07 PM

This is a tempest in a chamber pot and some folks are trying to turn it into some kind of anti-Kerry scandal. Time for a little fact-check here. Speaking to the Pennsylvania delegation at the state house in Boston, Teresa Heinz Kerry came out against hate politics, and said:

"We need to turn back some of the creeping, un-Pennsylvanian and sometimes un-American traits that are coming into some of our politics."

"My prayers for you, for me, for the country, for the world, are that we keep this at a high level, with dignity, with respect and with a great idealism and courage that took our forefathers to build this great nation."

Afterward, Pittsburgh Tribune Review reporter Colin McNickle said she accused the Bush administration of "un-American activity." The words "un-American activity, in the aftermath of the HUAC and McCarthy era—and still—carry a much heavier emotional load than "un-American traits," which is what Teresa did say. She told McNickle, "That's not what I said." When he persisted, she said that he was trying to put words in her mouth and told him to "shove it."

Even if she had said "un-American activities, considering the way the Bush administration has been ignoring the Constitution and Bill of Rights, it would not be difficult to build a case that she was exactly right.

And after checking several sources and watching the video of the exchange, that, folks, is what really happened. Some people out there (guess who?) are grabbing at straws. But then, what else do they have?

Time to turn our attention to more serious issues.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 01:59 PM

To me, the issue is not that she said "shove it"   Politicians have said far worse.    The issue was that she was caught in a lie denying what she clearly said.    That is not uncommon either.    All you have to do is watch Meet the Press.    Tim Russert is so well prepared.   He asks a question.   The politician denys it.   Russert goes to a video tape proving the politician to be a liar.    The politician pretends the video never existed.

In the words of the immortal Groucho Marx "who are you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?"

Of course the rules are different for republicans.    When Bush landed on the aircraft carrier it was a cheap publicity stunt.   What will the liberals say about Bush taking the water taxi accross Boston Harbor with his viet nam ship mates to reenact his swift boat viet nam experience?    Why do liberals praise Kerry as a war hero and condem Bush as a deserter when they supported Clinton against Dole?

This convention has gotten the lowest tv rating since the Thomas Jefferson convention.   Of course in those days, They didn't have TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 02:34 PM

Larry, the words in question here are "un-American activities." Teresa said "un-American traits."

McNickle was clearly trying to make more of it than was there, and she called him on it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 02:59 PM

Larry, Clinton never claimed to be a war hero, or a War President.

That "Mission Accomplished" sign *was* a cheap stunt that backfired. (Like "Bring 'em on!") Selecting a camera angle that kept San Diego out of sight was a cheap stunt. The whole thing was intended to make you believe in a (non-existent) victory. What else was it for?

Bush talks a good war, all right. Although now he's trying to flipflop into the Peace President.

And what has the tv rating got to do with anything? Is TV a good judge of anything besides entertainment?

And why am I dumb enough to reply to posts like that?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Blackcater
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 03:14 PM

Larry,

I heard today that the ratings are actually up since 4 years ago. And I think that PBS is doing a fine job that the other networkds don't have the guts to do.

The press cconstantly report that the American public isn't interested in politics when it is they who are packaging the product for the public.

If the public was actually exposed to longer speachs instead of 10 second sound bites, if the public was exposed to intelligent people discussiong the ramifications, such as those on PBS instead of Katie Couric and the View "ladies" (and plenty of dumb, vacant, politically ignorant men, as well), people might be more interested.

Now, with Bill Moyers had an interesting report that came to the conclusion that the main reason politicians run some many damn ads is that it's the only way they can get any real time on TV. TV is using the publics airwaves for free and then charging politicians for the "right" to be heard. How screwed up is that? Of ocurse politicians want no part of changing that, because it's so much more easy for incumbants to raise money and get re-elected.

The whole system stinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 04:31 PM

Hi BB,

I think Don Firth is exactly right. I have seen no other article that claims that she denied "un-American," just "un-American activities," which is an emotionally loaded phrase. Since this is asserted by CNN with no source quoted, we can assume there was no source to quote; in other words they were reporting "scuttlebutt." I don't treat that the same as a sourced quote by an eyewitness.

In response to the Groucho criterion introduced by LarryK, then, we can believe our own eyes and still not believe she lied because the confrontation has only been reported as scuttlebutt. We know she said "un-American traits," but have no firm evidence that she denied it.

Finally, attempting to compare her to Cheney for "shove it" is ridiculous on three counts. First of all, "shove it" is not in itself a "dirty word"; it's the kind of thing you can say, for instance, on basic cable TV. "Go Fuck Yourself" would be censored out. Second, she is not an officeholder or even a candidate. So who cares if she says "shove it?" Finally, she said it to a tabloid reporter in the hall of a hotel; he said it to a US Senator on the floor of the US Senate.

I should say personally i don't really care about Cheney saying what he said either. But let's not compare apples and oranges.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 04:41 PM

C'm on, bb; I can remember when Dukakis was accused of being a card-carrying ACLU member. And a Liberal, as though those things were bad in themselves

And more recently when those who disagreed with the administration were called pro-terrorist.

You're hollering when you ain't been hurt.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 04:57 PM

All you folks who think the word "Liberal" is an insult, look it up. I'm damn proud to be a liberal.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 06:00 PM

The Bushies (and others) are trying to make the word "liberal" akin to something like "fascist" or "child molester". They keep screaming that Kerry is "more liberal than Ted Kennedy!"

God, I hope so!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 07:32 PM

beardedbruce said: “Isn't this what the Left has been complaining about with the Bush administration? Or are the rules different when you like someone?”

One of the fundamental flaws in all these discussions is that there is no “left” in the US!

The last US leftist died 20 years ago. All that remains today are centrists (moderates) and a whole spectrum of right-wingers ranging from a few actual conservatives to the mindless whackos currently controling the US government. They and their minions keep using the term “left” to keep the ignorant stirred up and off guard. Anyone who believes these bastards is either in their pockets financially or really, really stupid.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 07:43 PM

"Is TV a good judge of anything besides entertainment?"

Has it started doing that again?

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 10:21 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 03:48 PM

Ratings for the convention have been around a 3.2 share.   According to most reports about 20-30% down from 2000.   CSI Miami was 8.6.   My guess is that THe Simple Life II had better ratings than the convention.   Conversely, cable ratings are way up.   CNN and Fox are about 2.5 ratings-depending on the show and the night.   Fox is up 490% from 2000. CNN is up about 20% from 2000.   I think the american public is far smarter than the networks give them credit for.
I can't believe I am quoting Dan Rather but he said it best "We could get better ratings with test patterns"

Overall, I think there is a lack of interest in the convention as compared to previous conventions.   I predict very little bounce (5-7%) and the same thing will happen to the republican convention.   Little interest and little bounce.   I think most people already know who they are going to vote for and we will be spending billions of dollars on 28 people in Iowa (and a few other states) to determine who will be president.

Nerd- As Warner Wolf would say "lets go to the video tape". I saw and heard Theresa say on tv "I never said un american"   That is proof enough for me.   Now about those tax records she won't release.....

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 04:20 PM

Best place to watch the convention is C-Span. No talking heads and they show all of the speakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 05:54 PM

Don Firth says the Bushies are trying to make the word "liberal" akin to "fascist." But Blackcatter said this on another thread: "Republicans (especially those wh support the current regime) are fascists and anti-freedom. "

So who's trying to point the fascist finger at whom?

Personally, I'm glad someone had the chutzpah to tell a reporter to shove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 07:50 PM

Kim, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean to imply that anyone is equating liberals with fascists (except Rush Limbaugh, but who with any intelligence pays any attention to him?). What I meant was that the Bushies are trying to turn it into a negative epithet, like "fascist," "child molester," "monster," or anything else that someone might be deem as contemptible, rather than a statement of a person's political position.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 08:04 PM

Further. Making "liberal" a word of contempt is the same sort of thing as calling a kid who likes to read a "nerd" or a "dork." No kid wants to be thought of as a "dork," so he might just give up reading. If you can make "liberal" a term of contempt, then many people will be intimidated into not wanting to be one. Thus one drastically reduces the number of liberals in this country.

Except for those who think.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:03 AM

LarryK,

Funny: what you claim you heard is not what was reported above. So whom do I trust?

I didn't see the tape, so I'll suspend judgement. But if I DO see it I'll say: big deal. She's not running for office.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:07 AM

Hey, notice how this thread is REALLY about playing "Blame the democrat's wife"? Who is blaming a conservative for anything? It's bb's persecution complex acting up.

Remember, BB, before she was a Democrat's wife she was a Republican's wife, so why are you taking her actions to be representative of her husband?

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 08:00 AM

Little Hawk :

I think your post of 27 Jul 04 - 08:41 PM was an accurate assesment.

My complaint is that the Republican, when called a liar repeatedly by a senator, used foul language to express his disgust with said senator, everyone screams- when a Democratic candidate's wife lies to a reporter asking for clarification, it is a tempest in a teapot. I understood, but did not approve of Cheney's words- I do not understand the need to deny womething that was said.

"********************************************************************
Heinz Kerry's remark came after she told the delegates that "we need to turn back some of the creeping un-Pennsylvanian and sometimes un-American traits that are coming into some of our politics."
*********************************************************************

As she was leaving, McNickle asked her what she had meant by her use of the word "un-American."

She argued with him, insisting she hadn't said "un-American."

He said he thought she had used the term "un-American activity."

"I did not say activity or un-American," she responded.

She then turned to someone nearby and said, "You know what the question is? Say that I called this an 'un-American activity.' I did not."

After stepping away and speaking briefly with Democratic organizers of the event, she returned and asked the reporter if he worked for the Tribune-Review. He said he did.

"Understandable. You said something I didn't say, now shove it," she told him. "

SHE was the one who denied saying "un-American" The reporter was dismissed out of hand for not representing the "proper" viewpoint. He ASKED if she had said "un-American activity", SHE denied saying "un-American", which she had, then tried to make it an accusation against the reporter.

NOTE AGAIN:

"As she was leaving, McNickle asked her what she had meant by her use of the word "un-American."

She argued with him, insisting she hadn't said "un-American." "

Yes, the reporter was trying to find out what she meant- Do those on the left want the reporters covering the Bush administration to be treated the same way? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 08:55 AM

Okay, but my point is she's not even a Candidate; and as a public figure she's been equally prominent as a Republican. You're grasping at straws to discredit the wrong person, bb.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 08:58 AM

I am trying to point out the unequal treatment by the media- if this had been a Republican candiudate's wife, there would still be headlines and screaming going on. But as the Dems candidate's wife, she gets a free pass. She can lie, and noone cares- but if Cheney gets angry, and expresses what he feels, THAT is headlines for a month...

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:44 AM

You're just blustering. That's absurd.

Remember when Laura Bush said that George W. wrote her that poem "roses are read, violets are blue, my lump in the bed, how I've missed you," etc, etc? Later on, on Tim Russert she admitted that it was all a lie. He didn't write the poem. She was just trying to make him look cute.

How was this treated by the press: national scandal or no big deal?   

Hint: NO BIG DEAL!!!