BS: Car bombs defused in london

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 06:44 PM

I'm beginning to believe that Western justice is fairly useless
in dealing with these monsters. The deterrents which the Western
world has available (i.e., incarceration and in a limited number
of cases, execution) just don't serve to do anything but effectively
martyr Islamic terrorists.

It may be that Israel has realized this, when formulating their
response to 'suicide bombers.' In some cases, they've bull=dozed
their family homes in response.

As Westerners, we have a sense of 'fair play' that won't presently
permit us to resort to such measures. But we ultimately may have to
revise our thinking with regard to peoples who have such alien
values systems. We may have to mete out justice as it would be
meted out by the 'Islamic states' that these characters seem to
desire so fervently.

So when they drive their Jeep into an airport in Glasgow, society
drives a bulldozer into their grey-haired mother's home in
Sheffield. Or in Islamabad. Or said grey-haird mother gets deported with nothing but the clothes on her back, having been stripped of any
privileges of citizenship. Same treatment for any mosques who provide them spiritual refuge or the madrases at which they were trained.

After all, if these families, religious schools, and houses of worship
are so innocent, then why, too, aren't the folks at the night clubs
or the check-in counters, and on the tube trains?

In the colonial period, if a villager attacked a soldier from the
outpost, the garrison might well have responded by burning the
village and/or its fields. Like it or not, it got the message
across.

Perhaps Western 'Civilization' needs to look at going back to those
terms, if representatives of Islam insist upon operating in
medieval terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 07:21 PM

Oh fuck!! Why don't we just Nuke them all!

We have the technology, whats to stop us?
The Russians and Chinese would be glad to get rid of the mad bastards.
Its the obvious answer isn't it.......Genocide....Mass murder.....slaughter children and mothers....they're sub human, don't deserve to live really. Its not as if they're even Christians.

Does this not sound familiar?...It's the post above without the window dressing....Sad thing is, it might just happen...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 09:35 PM

Yup, Greg B has got the message the bombers are trying to send, and responding in precisely the way they must have been hoping for.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:59 PM

Ake, Roughyed, GregB for the most part I disagree with you all but I found your posts thought provoking and I thank you all.

Robo

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 12:36 AM

Akenaton wrote:

"I think that the hope that Islam can only be fixed from within, if I'm understandint that, is well intentioned but unrealistic"

Robomatic.....You sound as if you think we have a range of options.
In fact we have no alternative but to step "back from the brink".
Waging war on a country for dubious reasons is a certain way to radicalise the citizens of that country.

Perhaps Islam cannot be fixed, and as I've stated already, if that is indeed the case then we are already defeated.
I prefer to be optimistic and the example you cite of the Muslim/Muslim killings can sow the seeds of change among even radicalised Muslims.

We must change our foreign policy, and remove our invasion forces before any change can even start.

If we cannot change our unsustainable lifestyle and rapacious economic system....historically the main cause of conflict in the Middle East, then we must except the consequences

I do not think we're already defeated. I think the defeat of radical Islam is inevitable and that the majority of Muslims are not only not with the fundy's but a major part of the solution.

But I do think it won't be done peacefully. As for our foreign policy, I think it could be better, but now that we're there, it's important that we pull off some kind of perceptable win.

As for our unsustainable lifestyle, I agree with you. But I'm an American, I'm all about 'excepting' (i.e. not accepting) the consequences.


Roughyed wrote:

Islamic fundamentalism, far from being 'equivalent to Nazis in every significant way' is very distinct and it doesn't help drawing spurious parallels.

Nazism is a distinct political movement which occurs where there is a lethal threat to capitalism in a particular country and the balance of class forces means that an alliance betweeen the petit bourgeouisie and the lumpen proletariat can take power and save the status quo.

Fascism/Nazism has only ever taken power in Europe in Catholic countries. This is not because these countries are evil or because the Catholic Church is fascist but because the counter-reformation only happened in countries where there was a large peasantry and an underdeveloped haut bourgeouisie - the class forces that favour Fascism/Nazism.

What we are seeing in Al Qaeda is a Saudi civil war being fought by proxy. Osama Bin Laden is a member of the Saudi royal family who would very much like to run the country. Everything he has done is to further that aim. The people he uses are drawn from the petit bourgeouisie and lumpen proletariat because those are the people who support nationalist movements as well as fascist movements. It doesn't make him a fascist or a nazi.

This doesn't excuse Al Qaeda who are a backward looking group with no scruples but it can lead to some illogical leaps if you misidentify your enemy.

Your description of the situation in terms of class warfare, if you are not being deeply sarcastic, sounds kinda Marxist, which is a hoot. As if Marxists and their counter-intuitive netherphilosophy of diabolical materialism ever explained anything...

In fact, Saddam Hussein consciously modeled himself after Comrade Joe (Stalin). Nazism and Communism are different shades of the same thing: Totalitarianism. Nazism embraces the pseudo science of race, Communism believes in the central dominance of the planned economy. "Fundamental" terrorist religious fanatics, any stripe, believe in a dedicated route to Heaven that is defined only by them. It is a substitution of man for God in the name of God.

All the above systems are Procrustean, they have no trouble with eliminating human beings who don't fit the mold. They enslave whole populations whose only choices for life are to fight or fit, viz the old Soviet maxim "When you live with wolves, howl like one."

Which brings us to GregB:

I'm beginning to believe that Western justice is fairly useless
in dealing with these monsters. The deterrents which the Western
world has available (i.e., incarceration and in a limited number
of cases, execution) just don't serve to do anything but effectively
martyr Islamic terrorists.

It may be that Israel has realized this, when formulating their
response to 'suicide bombers.' In some cases, they've bull=dozed
their family homes in response.

As Westerners, we have a sense of 'fair play' that won't presently
permit us to resort to such measures. But we ultimately may have to
revise our thinking with regard to peoples who have such alien
values systems. We may have to mete out justice as it would be
meted out by the 'Islamic states' that these characters seem to
desire so fervently.

So when they drive their Jeep into an airport in Glasgow, society
drives a bulldozer into their grey-haired mother's home in
Sheffield. Or in Islamabad. Or said grey-haird mother gets deported with nothing but the clothes on her back, having been stripped of any
privileges of citizenship. Same treatment for any mosques who provide them spiritual refuge or the madrases at which they were trained.

After all, if these families, religious schools, and houses of worship
are so innocent, then why, too, aren't the folks at the night clubs
or the check-in counters, and on the tube trains?

In the colonial period, if a villager attacked a soldier from the
outpost, the garrison might well have responded by burning the
village and/or its fields. Like it or not, it got the message
across.

Perhaps Western 'Civilization' needs to look at going back to those
terms, if representatives of Islam insist upon operating in
medieval terms.

Our (The West's) options are in fact very flexible, because our past embodies the present of the World Of Islam. And if we are flexible and somewhat adept, we can understand that the Islamic world is not monolithic, is full of intelligence and creativity and the yearnings that brought light and science to the backwardness of the European Christian world hundreds of years ago (but took hundreds of years to take effect).

So we need to use force, we need to use argument. We need to use understanding. We need to partition the Islamic world so as to minimize the antagonism of the majority, who do NOT seek our deaths (yet).

Which brings us to the present, where we have imperfect leaders. Sometimes one has to lead the leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 04:40 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6257594.stm
This is a nasty little story about how children are being radicalised.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:33 AM

I wish people wouldn't use "medieval" as a catch-all insult for things don't like.

There is nothing in the least medieval about the "born again" version of Islam that is a factor in all this. It's a modern development, analogous in that way to some kind of fundamentalism in other religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:44 AM

Is there an example of another fundamentalist religion that has a comparable, medieval enthusiasm for the taking of life in furtherance of their own supremacy?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 07:03 AM

There are wrongs on both sides here.
Historic wrongs and modern wrongs perpetrated by the West on the people of the Middle East.

Reaction by radicalised Muslems is also very wrong, even if clearheaded people can work out why it occurs.
When an ideology causes young men and women to take their own lives to kill their enemies it becomes a madness, and Im sure the madness we see today all over the Middle East is encouraged by men who are far from mad....men who seek power at any cost.

The problem with the artguments put forward by Robo and Keith is that they fail to see any fault in the position of the West.

Its back to trench warfare where nothing is solved.

Simply condemning one side in this conflict consolidates positions which have survived as long as I remember

Lets all start looking at what the side that we support is doing wrong for a change. It may be uncomfortable, but if we don't solve this matter soon it may engulf the whole world....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 07:05 AM

How about the fundamentalist Christian right's enthusiasm for capital punishment, for a start?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 08:24 AM

McGrath,

"I wish people wouldn't use "medieval" as a catch-all insult for things don't like.

There is nothing in the least medieval about the "born again" version of Islam that is a factor in all this. It's a modern development, analogous in that way to some kind of fundamentalism in other religions. "

I understand and agree with your point, but the following may shed light on why the term is being used. The present Islamic extremists are acting much as Europeans did in the middle ages.

"The site of Clifford's Tower, the keep of York's medieval castle, still bears witness to the most horrifying event in the history of English Jewry. On the night of 16 March 1190, the feast of Shabbat ha-Gadol, the small Jewish community of York was gathered together for protection inside the tower. Rather than perish at the hands of the violent mob that awaited them outside, many of the Jews took their own lives; others died in the flames they had lit, and those who finally surrendered were massacred and murdered.

Understandably, this appalling event has become the most notorious example of antisemitism in medieval England. Yet, it was by no means an isolated incident, but rather the culmination of a tide of violent feeling which swept the country in the early part of 1190. "

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 08:24 AM

Islamists are capital punishment enthusiasts AS WELL AS employing random acts of mass murder againts civillian targets.
Any other examples?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 09:38 AM

bearded bruce:

Your point on McGrath's pickiness re the word 'medieval' is well taken. I didn't use the term 'medieval' nevertheless one doesn't have to go far to find incidents of European religious 'fundamentalism through history including well into modern times. There's the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in which the Catholic royals of France utilized the people of Paris to commit wholesale murder and mayhem upon Protestants, there's the incident in which a Protestant was horribly executed in France which caused Voltaire to coin his phrase: "Ecrasez L'infame", and of course there's the well known and prolonged religious wars throughout Europe, in the wake of Luther, including the incredible historical period in England called the Civil War, which was in fact a complex period of religious, political and class warfare. And I think the carnage in Europe and South America was far worse than anything the Islamic world has yet come up with.

This is all toward my oft-repeated point that Islam is in a different time-stage relative to the other main religions of the world, which have gone through similar periods up to recent times. Complaining about the use of the term 'medieval' is like remarking on the color of the patch one uses to fix a leaky pneumatic tire.

As for Akenaton's contention that "The problem with the arguments put forward by Robo and Keith is that they fail to see any fault in the position of the West." this is Akenaton's failure to put up some concrete instances but to attempt to justify Akenaton's own weak position by spreading the blame around on a level with "mistakes were made".

Also it is not true in my case. I'm NOT making the case that the West is all sweetness and light. I'm making the case that the West has been through very similar times to what is occurring now in the Islamic world, that there may be a 'progression' of intellectual thought that all powerful religions go through, so we should be well warned.

And my argument that the Islamic fundamentalists of today are very similar to the Nazis of the recent past in self-justification, aggresiveness, and potential cultural damage yet stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:12 AM

Actually I'd say there is much more similarity to the way Europeans of various varieties of Christianity behaved towards each other during the Reformation and Counter Reformation period, which was a time of fanatical modernisation.   

My point is that it's a mistake to think of Jihadist Islamism as a hangover from the past. It's a new phenomenon, geared towards an imagined future. That's where its danger lies. (And that is something it does indeed have in common with Nazism.)

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:51 AM

There is indeed great enthusiasm for capital punishment in Islamic states. That is just one of many reasons why I do not wish our regimes in Western Europe to resemble theirs. But getting back to random killing... Which country and which age shall we talk about? Shall we recall the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre of 1919, or perhaps the the Dresden Massacre of 13/14 February 1945, ? or perhaps the entire bombing strategy of targeting residential areas in the latter stages of World War II. Indeed the Germans started it, but does that detract from the fact that when we did it, it was still genocide? I am appalled by the terrorist attacks by Islamic nutters anywhere. I can still spare a thought for the relatives of some eighty Afgahn civilians, who were killed by a foreign invader's air force on Sunday. It is going to be bloody hard work to convince them that terrorists are the worst people in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 12:57 PM

Robo--

"...important that we pull off some sort of perceptable (sic) win". In Iraq? If not, where? And we're back to the other old questions: what's your definition of a win? And how long are you willing to stay there to get your "win"?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 11:09 PM

Ron:

'member what I said about flexibility?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 07:39 AM

No, actually. What does that mean in reference to my questions? The "flexibility" of the US public is fast disappearing.

And from the WSJ today:

"Iraq lawmakers failed again to pass a law on dividing oil wealth among sectarian communities. Kurds insist on control of resources in their zone."

Particularly the last sentence is crucial.

Kurds will not--ever--give up control of oil in "Kurdistan". By the end of this year, this very likely will include the oil-rich Kurkuk region. All eyes seem to be on Baghdad, but a strong argument can be made that Kirkuk is as least as significant.

Shia will take the Kurds' approach as a model.

So Sunni in "their zone" will be out of luck. And they know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 09:01 AM

Alanabit:

You should add to your massacre list the 10 million (or more) who perished in the Soviet Union's drive to collectivization and the 20 to 40 millions of human beings who died under China's Cultural Revolution the 1.5 million Cambodians under the Khmer Rouge, the 3.5 million North Koreans who perished in the famines of the 1990's. These were massacres by governments against their own people. And the list is far from complete.

The stuff you mentioned was done by pikers.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: GUEST,Scotland calling
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 10:59 AM

Bombs defused in London, no damge; explosion/blazing car at airport in Glasgow. Yet notice that it was about twenty posts before the second was even mentioned; sooner Scotland shakes off the British State, sooner the Imperialist mind-set will be abandoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 11:21 AM

1. The Glasgow incident took place after the thread had been started so why the surprise?
2. The thread was started in Sydney, not exactly known for it's Imperialist sympathies.
3. The thread was labelled London not UK.
4. There's a nice restaurant in Glasgow called The Ubiquitous Chip, perhaps you should try eating there ocasionally?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 02:47 PM

Robomatic, you are absolutely right. My point was merely that we Brits have no reason to feel smug and superior.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM

"Robomatic, you are absolutely right. My point was merely that we Brits have no reason to feel smug and superior. "

But, alanabit, you Brits do it so well!

Seriously, it is possible to get on one's high horse, and we're all better off realizing that we've all "played the headsman" so to speak.

I submit that a certain self awareness is in order, the state of the mind of the "true believer" is one that I believe all cultures pass through, and the stare of "bloody mindedness" is one that all cultures are still in, for a very good reason, if one is not in it, one does not survive.

I tend to idealize Brits, which comes of a bit too many Goons, too much Gilbert & Sullivan, and a book of Churchillian wit. I think that both Yanks and Brits have a self critical strain which for the most part makes us stronger.

With all the wide range of current events, I think it's fair to say we're in an ideological war against 'true-believers' and there is some confusion amongst the true-believers in our midst who believe that the war is one religion versus another, whereas I and perhaps you perceive it as a war in which we favor toleration, and the other side has no truck with tolerance.

Which brings us to the moral question at the heart: Do the tolerant have a right to limit their tolerance of the intolerant, if only to survive?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 02:06 AM

Sheesh robomatic! We are going to have a very long thread if we start debating that one! I would like to look at the problem of "fanatics" from another angle. Let me describe terrorism, for the sake of argument as "low level acts of extreme violence (compared to military capability) in support of a group, which exists outside of normal political structures". Now we describe most of the perpetrators as "fanatics" or "extremists" when they commit violence. Usually, in terms of real influence or power, they are very weak. So I think that terrorism is essentially an an act of despair or desperation by those, who feel they are under threat or that they have no other way of making their voice heard. That does not excuse it or make it any less despicable.
What gives me hope is that if you take soldiers off a battlefield, they can usually talk to each other and engage in real dialogue. If we can bring Hizbolla, Hamas etc into dialogue, they will not be able to see us as only a threat.
To go back to your final question. I suppose if we have a sudden flare up, and I swing a punch at your head, you have every right to limit your tolerance and to stop me from hurting you. However, we both know that when tempers have calmed down and we both listen to each other, we can laugh it off and move on. Dialogue can be long and tortuous, but the alternative is an eternal circle of atrocity and revenge. There simply is not any future in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:37 AM

the state of the mind of the "true believer" is one that I believe all cultures pass through,

If by that you mean it's a phase they pass through and then it's done with, a sort of societal equivalent of adolescence, I think that's over optimistic.

Analogies between individuals and society are occasionally helpful, and frequently seductive, but they need to be treated with extreme caution.    The more relevant analogy for true believerism, I suggest, isn't so much adolescence, it's fever. By that I mean, it isn't something a society gets over once and for all, it's something that can strike again, maybe in some new form.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:42 AM

McGrath,

re Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:37 AM


I agree entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 08:10 AM

Really good comments above, gotta take a bit of a break and think on 'em . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: GUEST,yank
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:45 PM

Your MI-5 and MI-6 ran "Irish" bombings. You have a new fascist Prime Minister pushing for more social control. Can't y'all piece it together?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:57 PM

"Your MI-5 and MI-6 ran "Irish" bombings."

False statement, until evidence is provided.


'Your MI-5 and MI-6 may have run "Irish" bombings. ' would be a more acceptable wording, but the lack of evidence is indicative of the weakness of your statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 01:47 PM

I may have got "Pillock of the Week" last week, but this time around I just can't compete!

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 02:14 PM

"the state of the mind of the "true believer" is one that I believe all cultures pass through,"

I'll go with that. As a late adolescent, I could have been easily recruited by either side, just by someone taking a personal interest in me.
The army is extremely adept at this.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 09:44 PM

Robo--


Not to commit too egregious thread creep--but I still---vehemently--disagree with the idea that we have to "pull off some sort of perceptible win". Exactly why do we have to do that?

And, again, what is your definition of a "win"?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:58 AM

Ron:

A fair question, (for our leaders, not for me). How you define a win and how I define a win, Ron, very likely depend on how we define the war. As I implied above, I think we're fighting an ideological war AND a physical one. We have to win the ideological war, and we have to save face on the physical one, both of which are pretty do-able, given a half confident/ competent administration.

Recently (Yesterday) NPR broadcast the opinions of a former jihadi, a young British citizen with Pakistani background, who for years was one of the screaming loonies. Check out what he had to say on the npr.org website. I believe his name was Butt.

Robo

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:08 AM

meanwhile, on the other side of the globe Gold Coast (Australia) doctor arrested over UK bomb plot

updates - Doctor working in Australia linked to London Bombings

sandra (republican!)

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:59 AM

Robo--


Why is "saving face" worth the death of one more soldier or Iraqi?

This argument sounds distressingly like the drivel we are fed daily by the Bush regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: GUEST,yank
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:01 PM

The Pelosi regime voted to continue the wars. To surge the wars, even. This is the "change" they promised us before the U.S. elections in 2006.

The talk about Bush's sins is wearing thin. The Democrats are now funding the war. It is the Democrats' war. The liberals' war.

But the change from one monstrous regime to another is easy to overlook. We're told a fresh face will make a difference. Blair's out, Brown's in, and a convenient non-event of "terrorism" is hyped by the media to make sure you know the there is still a tie that binds the old to the new.

The media is guilty of the terrorism, and the media is controlled by the governments. Look up the definition of terrorism then watch television. You'll see terrorism being relentlessly practiced against you, and not by the likes of bin Laden. Bush, Brown, Pelosi, Blair, Rupert Murdoch...they're the terrorists. Don't trust anything they say, and when the next true terror event occurs, remember that the ones in power are going to benefit by you agreeing to give up your rights for "security."

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:05 PM

Oh, terrorism is also practised by the likes of bin Laden, too. Don't go too far overboard. The others are assholes, and I have never had any use for Pelosi--just a Republican in drag--but to suggest that shithead has clean hands is foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:58 PM

yeah, guest,yank,apologist- in case you haven't checked out the origins of this thread, doctors, be they jew,christian,muslim, are supposed to take the 'hippocratic oath' and first do no harm. With doctors like these the average citizen is going to seek protection from the very folks you are blaming. Your witless rant provides no basis for constructing a more coherent reply. If you want to call everyone a terrorist your ability to discriminate is compromised from the start.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:21 PM

Pedantic interjection: Doctors don't in fact take the Hippocratic Oath, at least they don't in the UK.

Here it is as a matter of interest:

I SWEAR by Apollo the physician and Aesculapius, and Health, and All-heal, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation to reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to the law of medicine, but to none others. I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgement, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons labouring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further, from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves. Whatever, in connection with my professional service, or not in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret. While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times. But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:29 PM

Wasn't Mengele a doctor?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:37 PM

McGrath:

Well, for that pedantic observation, I learned something, but I will endeavor to forgive you.

Robo, typical ignant 'murrican