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Awkward rhymes
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 08 Mar 02 - 03:13 PM A gem from the Flanders & Swann song - Missalliance
Said the right hand thread honeysuckle to the left hand thread bindweed
Oh! Let us get married if my parents don't mind ....We'ed ,
Be loving and inseparable, inexplicably entwined,
We'd live happily ever after, said the honeysuckle to the bindweed TTFN ;>) |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Genie Date: 08 Mar 02 - 04:37 PM Me, too, Jeri -- I say "awesome." (which, BTW, kind of rhymes with "possum," FWIW.)
McGrath , I think your "rule of thumb" has hit the nail on the head:"...unless you are using the rhyme humorously, you should never sound as if you are using a word or a construction as a way of getting a rhyme. It should sound as if, just by fortunate chance, the words you needed to use to convey the meaning happened to echo each other at the right places. BTW, pardon my dual finger faux pas in the post about Rod Stewart. Sonnet, I agree that half-rhymes expand your boundaries and often make better poetry . -- Some beautiful songs don't have any rhymes at all. -- But to me there is something very special about a song that has excellent match of meter and rhyme from phrase to phrase yet sounds as if it had sprung spontaneously from the songwriter's heart. It's an added aspect of craftsmanship not present in all beautiful songs. McCartney's "Yesterday" is, I think, a prime example--complete with internal rhymes and verses that have matched line meters, yet the song sounds like normal conversation, not artsy poetry. (If you read it as prose, it sounds perfectly natural, too.) When you CAN't express the meaning and feeling well with true rhymes, though, I much prefer the para-rhyme or no rhyme at all!
FWIW, "silver" can also be rhymed by combining TWO words at the right place in the song/poem -- Wilfried, I could easily accept "brang" in a funny song or your standard country ballad, but "Play Me" is such a sweet, romantic song that the use of that clearly archaic or incorrect word really detracts. (I see Murray made the same point above, only better stated.) Genie |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 08 Mar 02 - 04:43 PM from "Fiddler on the Roof" in the song, "Matchmaker"...
For Poppa, make him a scholar, I hate that line. There is another one from Sondheim or Hammerstein which is really irritating, but I can't for the life of me think of it now. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: SharonA Date: 08 Mar 02 - 04:49 PM Come, sit right down and have an orange. I grew it here, so it's not foreign. Just let me put it through my silver Juicer. Drink it! It's to kill fer! |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Murray MacLeod Date: 08 Mar 02 - 04:56 PM Bravo, Sharon ! Neil Diamond couldn't have put it better ! *G* Murray |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:03 PM Neat rhyme for orange there.
As for "brang" for "bring", I'd rather assumed that was the kind of thing people said in some parts of the States. After all, that's more or less how "sing" is pronounced often enough, and not as a joke. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: SharonA Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:08 PM ...or you could pronounce it "si'ver" and rhyme it with "river"... But there again, it's all in fun and not intended to be serious; therefore some leeway is permissible. I agree wholeheartedly with those who object to the forced rhyme "brang" in "Play Me." But my highest indignation is reserved for the almost-rhyme, such as the "heaven-given" rhyme found in many hymns. I hate hearing it, and I'm going back into my earlier writings to weed it out wherever it may have appeared. There's a songwriter acquaintance of mine who attended a songwriting workshop that I also attended last year. The subject of the almost-rhyme came up and he said he enjoyed writing them into his songs. He seemed to think it was a clever means of styling a song, and that it attracted the attention of the listener. Attempts to tell him that he was attracting the wrong sort of attention didn't get through to him. He goes on tour nationally and gets glowing reviews, so I don't suppose he cares what we stay-at-homes think! But I won't pay to go listen to him and cringe at his lyrics!!! |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: SharonA Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:15 PM P.S. – Thanks, Murray and Kevin! BTW, some people here do pronounce "sing" a bit more like "sang", but I think that the "short-i-to-short-a" phenomenon is truer of the word "thing". |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 08 Mar 02 - 07:36 PM Sharon, "Orange ya glad you're you?" I also hate these lines from the song "I'll Never Fall in Love Again"
What do you get when you kiss a guy?
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Snuffy Date: 08 Mar 02 - 08:00 PM Those E-damn foreigners aren't worth a mention, Old Gorgonzola's renowned for it stench'n, His brother Emile wrote novels in French'n Sing, Oh the hard cheese of old England, In old Engerland very hard cheese. Les Barker in a Lehrer-esque mood. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Desdemona Date: 08 Mar 02 - 08:03 PM I won't belabour the point with specific examples, but Bob Dylan's rhyme schemes have always struck me as particularly discordant, inspired & brilliant! |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Snuffy Date: 08 Mar 02 - 08:04 PM Must remember the fifference between <BR> and <B> Those E-damn foreigners aren't worth a mention, Old Gorgonzola's renowned for it stench'n, His brother Emile wrote novels in French'n Sing, Oh the hard cheese of old England, In old Engerland very hard cheese. Les Barker in a Lehrer-esque mood. WassaiL! V
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Mar 02 - 08:46 PM I'm not with you at all on the "almost rhyme", Sharon. The technical name for it is "consonance", and it's been used by the greatest writers as an alternative to rhyme, or sometimes alongside rhyme. Dismissing it as just being an imperfect rhyme is, to my mind, a mistake.
I just looked up "consonance" in a fascinating book called "A readers guide to literary terms", to check I'd got it right - and the example the gave was from Emily Dickinson:
'T was later when the summer went
'T was sooner when the cricket went It wouldn't have been oarticularly hard for her to rewrite those lines with rhymes - but I think the poem would have lost something. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Desdemona Date: 08 Mar 02 - 08:51 PM And, as has been clearly demonstrated by many an undergraduate scholar, all Emily Dickinson poems improve when set to the tune of "The Yellow Rose of Texas"! |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Genie Date: 08 Mar 02 - 10:05 PM Sharon, That's awesome, too! LOL! Mary, To be correct (though it may not make the poem any better as art), Hal David's lyric is "... You get enough germs to catch pneumonia. After you do, he'll never phone ya."
McGrath, what do you call it when the vowel soundsconsonant sounds don't? Is that "assonance?" Personally, I don't necessarily mind either of these para-rhymes if the final poem/lyric pleases me. But, I often hear songs with this sort of half-rhyme that sound to me as though the songwriter just hadn't wanted to spend any time crafting the song. Genie I just looked up "consonance" in a fascinating book called "A readers guide to literary terms", to check I'd got it right - and the example the gave was from Emily Dickinson: 'T was later when the summer went Than when the cricket came, And yet we knew that gentle clock Meant nought but going home. 'T was sooner when the cricket went Than when the winter came Yet that pathetic pendulum Keeps esoteric time. It wouldn't have been oarticularly hard for her to rewrite those lines with rhymes - but I think the poem would have lost something. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Mar 02 - 02:10 AM The Dylan song "No Time To Think" has a ton of really unusual rhymes in it...quite interesting. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Haruo Date: 09 Mar 02 - 02:14 AM I think when I rhymed "Nineveh" with "Guinevere" that was quite a stretch. It's in Just Kill Me from my "Jonah was a prophet (minor)" 'oratorio'. But then the whole show is intended to be in a G&S mode, and what's G&S about if not an almost Nashian approach to rhyme? Liland |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: fat B****rd Date: 09 Mar 02 - 03:34 AM "The Power of Love" by Willie Harper contains "They know how many leaves there is on a tree - they know who killed......the Dead Sea" In the coda for the wonderful "Shop Aroud" by The Miracles, I'm sure Smokey Robinson sings "Don't let the first one getcha - Ah, 'Cos I don't wanna see her witcha" !! |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: swirlygirl Date: 09 Mar 02 - 07:14 AM "Stickers licked on lunchboxes Worshipping David Cassidy.." "We scream at cathedrals Why can't it be beautiful..." "With your E's and your ease and I do one more need a lip gloss boost in your America..." (the emphasis on "more" and "America") "Talula Talula You don't want to lose her... Talula Talula She's brand new now to you... Ran into the henchman Who severed Ane Boleyn..." (various rhymes from the same song) I could go on... Tori Amos can manage to stretch out just about anything to make it seem like it rhymes...problem is when I think of the lyrics now they seem to rhyme perfectly! :) xxx
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: John Nolan Date: 09 Mar 02 - 08:19 AM Sometimes rhymes may look clumsy or awkward in print, but work brilliantly in the song. "When The Caplin Come In" has the following: He's lost all his fishes, By God, he looks vicious, He's chawing' tobacco, there's juice on his chin, There's spawn in his whiskers, His hands are all blisters, He's been on the beach since the caplin come in. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: GUEST Date: 09 Mar 02 - 08:38 AM |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Nigel Parsons Date: 09 Mar 02 - 08:40 AM To put it in perspective, on the approach to St Patrick's Day, A quote from Gilbert O'Sullivan. Nothing good, nothing bad, nothing ventured Nothing gained, nothing still-born or lost, Nothing further than proof nothing wilder than youth Nothing physically, recklessly, hopelessly blind Nothing I couldn't say Nothing why 'cos today Nothing rhymed He rhymes "Proof" with "Youth" & "Say" with "Today", but otherwise, "Nothing Rhymed" |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Genie Date: 10 Mar 02 - 03:34 AM In case anyone wondered what the heck was going on at the end of my last post, the following lines were copied and pasted as note-taking, and I fogot to delete them:
'T was later when the summer went Than when the cricket came, And yet we knew that gentle clock Meant nought but going home.
'T was sooner when the cricket went Than when the winter came Yet that pathetic pendulum Keeps esoteric time.
It wouldn't have been oarticularly hard for her to rewrite those lines with rhymes - but I think the poem would have lost something.
Sorry if i befuddled anyone. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: DMcG Date: 10 Mar 02 - 06:31 AM "Sometimes rhymes may look clumsy or awkward in print, but work brilliantly in the song" - or the opposite:
So I'll to down to some lonesome garden Oops! |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Mar 02 - 06:48 AM Not "Oops" - consonance, and nothing wrong with that.
Though I prefer to call all those things part rhymes or half-rhymes or para-rhymes. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: DMcG Date: 10 Mar 02 - 08:41 AM I would agree, apart from the fact that almost every one I know feels obliged to make it rhyme and so they sing wine-d rather than win-d |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Sonnet Date: 10 Mar 02 - 11:35 AM Find and wind (as in breeze) are referred to as eye rhymes.In other words, they aren't full rhymes, but look on paper as though they ought to be. Janet |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: GUEST,heric Date: 11 Jun 03 - 01:03 PM He who shall train the horse to war Shall never pass the polar bar. -William Blake, Auguries of Innocence |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Mr Happy Date: 11 Jun 03 - 02:18 PM one of my all time favourites, from,'The Bacon Butty'(written by Fred McCormick) And to the ones who daily toil In sandwich bar and kitchen To serve in cellophane and foil Our modest lives enriching. Well washed and free from gangarine I bless the tender hand which Spreads thick, and fast, the margarine, Upon the bacon sandwich. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Ebbie Date: 11 Jun 03 - 03:20 PM Sometimes people just don't think. Or care. Recently I have heard this one group sing in 'I'll Fly Away': Some glad morning when this life is over I'll fly away To a home on God's celestial shore I'll fly away. I swear, one of these times I'm going sing loudly: To a home on God's celestial shover |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: SINSULL Date: 11 Jun 03 - 05:12 PM From "High Noon". Do Not Forsake Me He made a vow while in state prison, Vowed it'd be my life or his'n, I ain't afraid of death, but, o-oh, What will I do if you leave me? He could have used decision, derision, and oh so many others but "HIS'N" does rhyme with prison. hee hee |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: GUEST,AArk Date: 11 Jun 03 - 06:43 PM |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: GUEST,AArk Date: 11 Jun 03 - 06:49 PM Not Folkie, but from the late lamented Ian Dury's "There Aint Half Been Some Clever Bas***ds":- Einstein can't be classed as witless He said atoms were the littlest When you do a bit of splitting'em-ness Frightens everybody sh**less LOL!! |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Mr Happy Date: 11 Jun 03 - 09:51 PM Some glad morning when this life is o'er I'll fly away To a home on God's celestial shore I'll fly away. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Steve Parkes Date: 12 Jun 03 - 03:38 AM There was a man named Hermoniges Phniggs Who lived in Kilburn in terrible digs. He changed his name to Eric Fruit And now the damn' thig won't rhyme! Spike Miligan How about The clouds roll by/For you and I? Eek! But I still sing But fishes will fly and seas will run dry/'Tis then that you'll marry I. No problem with the rhymes, but nowadays educated people should know better than to mangle grammar. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jun 03 - 08:23 PM "Some glad morning when this life is o'er" - but the tune insists that that last word has two syllables, which is ok in dialects where "o'er" is pronounced "o-wer" but it tends to be pronounced more like "orr" most times in my experience, which wouldn't do. Rhyme should generally take a subordinate role, I believe. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Charley Noble Date: 12 Jun 03 - 09:25 PM Murray- Hulett should have rhymed "Atlantic" with "Titanic" and changed the song so that she'd rise again! Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Ebbie Date: 12 Jun 03 - 09:41 PM McGrath, where I come from, both o'er and shore in the song are pronounced as a distinctly two-part word, in the key of C, for instance, bending from e to d and from e to c, respectively. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Mr Happy Date: 01 May 13 - 11:49 AM 'Farewell to Valparaiso & farewell for a while And likewise all those Spanish girls along the coast of Chile!' |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: PHJim Date: 01 May 13 - 11:24 PM The Canadian Olympic song that had the lines: I believe together we'll fly I believe in the power of you and I "You and me" would be grammatically correct, but wouldn't rhyme. Still I clenched my teeth every time I heard these lines. Similarly, the old folk song "Didn't He Ramble" has opening lines that are sung differently by different people. Many folks sing the grammatically incorrect AND non-rhyming: "Mother raised three grown sons, Buster Bill and I, Buster was the black sheep of our little family." In order to make it rhyme, some pronounce "family" as "famil-eye" An easier solution taken by several singers is to correct the grammar, also correcting the rhyme: "Mother raised three grown sons, Buster Bill and me, Buster was the black sheep of our little family." |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: GUEST,Don Wise Date: 02 May 13 - 04:25 AM I think that we ought to bear in mind that, when criticising the rhymes in old folk songs, pronunciation, along with spelling, has changed over the centuries. We have all had a good schooling with the modern english language well to the fore in the curriculum. Shakespeare with his plays and sonnets,and the hacks down in Seven Dials churning out broadsides however rhymed according to the then valid pronunciation. For example, wind was, I believe, once written as wynd- as in "O Westron Wynd", and, if classically trained singers are to be believed, pronounced as 'wye+nd'. Furthermore, most traditional songs reflect the dialect/patois/argot, and so the pronunciation, of the region where they were collected, which is why modern RP often grates and leads singers to 'correct' the rhyme. With 'modern' songs, on the other hand, I have to agree that the rhymes can be strained, even cringeworthy, although this is often more apparent if you read rather than sing the text. I also have to admit that I'm as guilty as the next songwriter when it comes to this. It's like the old jazz song puts it:"It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it..." |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: BobKnight Date: 02 May 13 - 05:08 AM My favourite, which I heard recently was the Irish song where "Sky" rhymed perfectly with "joy." (skoy) I'm not criticising it, especially with a strong Scottish accent like mine - it just amused me. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: GUEST,Mark Date: 02 May 13 - 11:16 AM Roger Miller: "Roses are red, and violets are purple, Sugar is sweet, and so is maple sirple...." "Kansas City star, that's what I are...." |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: dick greenhaus Date: 02 May 13 - 12:20 PM Sinsul- Derision is nowhere near rhyme for prison Guest Mark (and others): Forced rhymes for obvious humorous purpose aren't awkward. LOrenz Hart, Cole Porter, Ogden Nash and Roger Miller (among many others) did this brilliantly. My pet peeve is those who attempt to rhyme sinular wors with plurals: ie Prairies with fairy. |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Mr Happy Date: 02 May 13 - 12:25 PM sinular wors? 'Course, you can always make up your own words to rhyme, like Lewis Carrol: 'twas brillig & the slithy toves' etc |
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Subject: RE: Awkward rhymes From: Paul Davenport Date: 02 May 13 - 12:46 PM My favourites - Arctic Monkeys, 'When the Sun Goes Down' has the following: And oh, he must be up to sommat (something) What are the chances? Sure it's more than likely I've got a feeling in my stomach or even better; Look, here comes a Ford Mondeo Isn't he Mr. Inconspicuous And he don't even have to say owt The band's lyrics scan and rhyme perfectly. But only if you speak South Yorkshire! :-) |
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