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1954 and All That - defining folk music

Related threads:
So what is *Traditional* Folk Music? (411)
Still wondering what's folk these days? (161)
Folklore: What Is Folk? (156)
Traditional? (75)
New folk song (31) (closed)
What is a kid's song? (53)
What is a Folk Song? (292)
Who Defines 'Folk'???? (287)
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definition of a ballad (197)
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Does it matter what music is called? (451)
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What is a folk song? Version 2.0 (59)
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BS: What is folk music? (69) (closed)
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WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Mar 09 - 05:49 PM
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WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Mar 09 - 07:53 PM
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Betsy 21 Mar 09 - 08:40 PM
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The Sandman 22 Mar 09 - 06:05 AM
The Sandman 22 Mar 09 - 06:44 AM
Betsy 22 Mar 09 - 06:50 AM
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Jack Blandiver 22 Mar 09 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 09 - 08:23 AM
TheSnail 22 Mar 09 - 08:43 AM
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WFDU - Ron Olesko 22 Mar 09 - 11:28 AM
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WFDU - Ron Olesko 22 Mar 09 - 02:25 PM
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Jim Carroll 22 Mar 09 - 02:39 PM
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Gibb Sahib 22 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM
Phil Edwards 22 Mar 09 - 04:12 PM
John P 22 Mar 09 - 06:18 PM
Betsy 22 Mar 09 - 07:26 PM
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GUEST,Edthefolkie 22 Mar 09 - 08:09 PM
Nick 22 Mar 09 - 09:18 PM
Nick 22 Mar 09 - 09:53 PM
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TheSnail 23 Mar 09 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 09 - 04:54 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Mar 09 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Will Fly, on the hoof 23 Mar 09 - 05:55 AM
The Sandman 23 Mar 09 - 06:04 AM
TheSnail 23 Mar 09 - 06:25 AM
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TheSnail 23 Mar 09 - 07:14 AM
GUEST, Sminky 23 Mar 09 - 07:20 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Mar 09 - 07:25 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 09 - 07:33 AM
Sleepy Rosie 23 Mar 09 - 07:46 AM
TheSnail 23 Mar 09 - 07:48 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 23 Mar 09 - 08:03 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 09 - 08:10 AM
The Sandman 23 Mar 09 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 23 Mar 09 - 09:08 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Mar 09 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,a passing academic 23 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM
Will Fly 23 Mar 09 - 09:38 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Mar 09 - 10:00 AM
Phil Edwards 23 Mar 09 - 10:23 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Mar 09 - 10:34 AM
TheSnail 23 Mar 09 - 10:34 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Mar 09 - 10:37 AM
TheSnail 23 Mar 09 - 10:41 AM
RTim 23 Mar 09 - 10:42 AM
TheSnail 23 Mar 09 - 10:43 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Mar 09 - 10:47 AM
RTim 23 Mar 09 - 10:53 AM
Phil Edwards 23 Mar 09 - 11:10 AM
Phil Edwards 23 Mar 09 - 11:18 AM
Banjiman 23 Mar 09 - 11:21 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Mar 09 - 11:27 AM
Phil Edwards 23 Mar 09 - 11:45 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Mar 09 - 11:49 AM
Banjiman 23 Mar 09 - 11:55 AM
The Sandman 23 Mar 09 - 11:57 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Mar 09 - 11:59 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 23 Mar 09 - 12:14 PM
Jack Blandiver 23 Mar 09 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 23 Mar 09 - 12:26 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 23 Mar 09 - 12:36 PM
Phil Edwards 23 Mar 09 - 12:55 PM
Jack Blandiver 23 Mar 09 - 01:10 PM
GUEST 23 Mar 09 - 03:05 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 23 Mar 09 - 03:12 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 09 - 04:17 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 23 Mar 09 - 04:51 PM
TheSnail 23 Mar 09 - 05:05 PM
The Sandman 23 Mar 09 - 05:09 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 09 - 06:04 PM
The Sandman 23 Mar 09 - 06:14 PM
Don Firth 23 Mar 09 - 06:36 PM
Peace 23 Mar 09 - 06:50 PM
TheSnail 23 Mar 09 - 07:11 PM
TheSnail 23 Mar 09 - 07:13 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Mar 09 - 07:39 PM
Phil Edwards 23 Mar 09 - 07:51 PM
Betsy 23 Mar 09 - 08:29 PM
Don Firth 23 Mar 09 - 09:50 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Mar 09 - 10:04 PM
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Sleepy Rosie 24 Mar 09 - 02:04 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 09 - 03:35 AM
Phil Edwards 24 Mar 09 - 04:10 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 09 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 09 - 04:16 AM
Jack Blandiver 24 Mar 09 - 06:47 AM
Sailor Ron 24 Mar 09 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,Phil Beer 24 Mar 09 - 07:06 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 09 - 07:28 AM
Jack Blandiver 24 Mar 09 - 07:32 AM
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Jack Blandiver 24 Mar 09 - 07:47 AM
Jack Blandiver 24 Mar 09 - 07:52 AM
Will Fly 24 Mar 09 - 07:56 AM
Nick 24 Mar 09 - 08:17 AM
Will Fly 24 Mar 09 - 08:30 AM
Jack Blandiver 24 Mar 09 - 08:33 AM
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Goose Gander 24 Mar 09 - 02:59 PM
Jack Blandiver 24 Mar 09 - 03:49 PM
Don Firth 24 Mar 09 - 04:15 PM
Goose Gander 24 Mar 09 - 04:45 PM
John P 24 Mar 09 - 07:02 PM
Don Firth 24 Mar 09 - 07:11 PM
Betsy 24 Mar 09 - 07:43 PM
Peace 24 Mar 09 - 09:34 PM
Ian Fyvie 24 Mar 09 - 10:15 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 24 Mar 09 - 11:34 PM
Don Firth 25 Mar 09 - 01:30 AM
Don Firth 25 Mar 09 - 01:31 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 09 - 03:18 AM
GUEST, Sminky 25 Mar 09 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 25 Mar 09 - 05:38 AM
GUEST, Sminky 25 Mar 09 - 06:36 AM
Jack Blandiver 25 Mar 09 - 06:54 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 09 - 07:08 AM
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GUEST, Sminky 25 Mar 09 - 08:18 AM
Howard Jones 25 Mar 09 - 08:57 AM
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GUEST, Sminky 25 Mar 09 - 09:50 AM
Jack Blandiver 25 Mar 09 - 09:55 AM
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GUEST,Shimrod 26 Mar 09 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 26 Mar 09 - 07:19 AM
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GUEST,Shimrod 26 Mar 09 - 10:52 AM
GUEST, Sminky 26 Mar 09 - 12:03 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 26 Mar 09 - 12:16 PM
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Banjiman 26 Mar 09 - 12:25 PM
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Sleepy Rosie 26 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM
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Jack Blandiver 26 Mar 09 - 01:40 PM
TheSnail 26 Mar 09 - 01:47 PM
Jack Blandiver 26 Mar 09 - 01:52 PM
Jack Blandiver 26 Mar 09 - 01:56 PM
Goose Gander 26 Mar 09 - 01:57 PM
Jack Blandiver 26 Mar 09 - 02:07 PM
Sleepy Rosie 26 Mar 09 - 02:13 PM
Goose Gander 26 Mar 09 - 02:15 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 26 Mar 09 - 02:53 PM
Goose Gander 26 Mar 09 - 03:02 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 26 Mar 09 - 03:12 PM
Jack Blandiver 26 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM
Goose Gander 26 Mar 09 - 03:47 PM
Don Firth 26 Mar 09 - 04:09 PM
Phil Edwards 26 Mar 09 - 04:15 PM
Don Firth 26 Mar 09 - 04:19 PM
Howard Jones 26 Mar 09 - 05:12 PM
The Sandman 26 Mar 09 - 05:59 PM
greg stephens 26 Mar 09 - 06:10 PM
Phil Edwards 26 Mar 09 - 07:08 PM
The Sandman 26 Mar 09 - 07:24 PM
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Jack Blandiver 27 Mar 09 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,sPLEEN cRINGE 27 Mar 09 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 27 Mar 09 - 05:48 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 27 Mar 09 - 06:58 AM
Jack Blandiver 27 Mar 09 - 07:14 AM
GUEST, Sminky 27 Mar 09 - 07:55 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 27 Mar 09 - 10:39 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Mar 09 - 11:20 AM
Jack Blandiver 27 Mar 09 - 01:54 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 27 Mar 09 - 03:14 PM
Howard Jones 27 Mar 09 - 03:26 PM
Phil Edwards 27 Mar 09 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,glueman 27 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 27 Mar 09 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 27 Mar 09 - 05:28 PM
Jack Blandiver 27 Mar 09 - 06:57 PM
Don Firth 27 Mar 09 - 07:23 PM
Phil Edwards 27 Mar 09 - 07:32 PM
The Sandman 27 Mar 09 - 08:05 PM
Jack Blandiver 27 Mar 09 - 08:05 PM
Goose Gander 27 Mar 09 - 08:34 PM
Howard Jones 27 Mar 09 - 08:36 PM
M.Ted 27 Mar 09 - 09:25 PM
Betsy 27 Mar 09 - 09:49 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Mar 09 - 03:55 AM
Peace 28 Mar 09 - 03:57 AM
GUEST,glueman 28 Mar 09 - 04:29 AM
Jack Blandiver 28 Mar 09 - 04:53 AM
DMcG 28 Mar 09 - 05:47 AM
Howard Jones 28 Mar 09 - 06:01 AM
Phil Edwards 28 Mar 09 - 06:42 AM
Jack Blandiver 28 Mar 09 - 07:28 AM
Howard Jones 28 Mar 09 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,glueman 28 Mar 09 - 12:09 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 28 Mar 09 - 12:14 PM
Phil Edwards 28 Mar 09 - 01:08 PM
Goose Gander 28 Mar 09 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,glueman 28 Mar 09 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 28 Mar 09 - 02:12 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 28 Mar 09 - 02:15 PM
Jack Blandiver 28 Mar 09 - 05:15 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 28 Mar 09 - 05:26 PM
Don Firth 28 Mar 09 - 05:30 PM
Jack Blandiver 28 Mar 09 - 06:04 PM
Phil Edwards 28 Mar 09 - 06:19 PM
Jack Blandiver 28 Mar 09 - 06:29 PM
Phil Edwards 28 Mar 09 - 06:32 PM
Jack Blandiver 28 Mar 09 - 07:03 PM
Goose Gander 28 Mar 09 - 07:42 PM
Betsy 28 Mar 09 - 09:07 PM
Don Firth 28 Mar 09 - 09:51 PM
M.Ted 28 Mar 09 - 11:57 PM
GUEST,glueman 29 Mar 09 - 03:34 AM
Phil Edwards 29 Mar 09 - 04:49 AM
GUEST,glueman 29 Mar 09 - 05:05 AM
Jack Blandiver 29 Mar 09 - 06:08 AM
GUEST,glueman 29 Mar 09 - 06:35 AM
Howard Jones 29 Mar 09 - 07:06 AM
Phil Edwards 29 Mar 09 - 07:10 AM
TheSnail 29 Mar 09 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 29 Mar 09 - 11:10 AM
Darowyn 29 Mar 09 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,glueman 29 Mar 09 - 01:13 PM
M.Ted 29 Mar 09 - 01:47 PM
michaelr 29 Mar 09 - 01:58 PM
Phil Edwards 29 Mar 09 - 02:00 PM
Don Firth 29 Mar 09 - 02:54 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 29 Mar 09 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,glueman 29 Mar 09 - 03:53 PM
Jack Blandiver 29 Mar 09 - 03:57 PM
TheSnail 29 Mar 09 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 29 Mar 09 - 05:53 PM
Phil Edwards 29 Mar 09 - 06:18 PM
Phil Edwards 29 Mar 09 - 06:31 PM
Nick 29 Mar 09 - 07:48 PM
Ian Fyvie 29 Mar 09 - 08:33 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 30 Mar 09 - 03:56 AM
Jack Blandiver 30 Mar 09 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,glueman 30 Mar 09 - 05:41 AM
TheSnail 30 Mar 09 - 06:13 AM
mark gregory 30 Mar 09 - 06:40 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 30 Mar 09 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,glueman 30 Mar 09 - 07:33 AM
TheSnail 30 Mar 09 - 08:21 AM
Jack Blandiver 30 Mar 09 - 08:35 AM
M.Ted 30 Mar 09 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,glueman 30 Mar 09 - 09:52 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Mar 09 - 10:31 AM
Phil Edwards 30 Mar 09 - 10:51 AM
George Papavgeris 30 Mar 09 - 10:51 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Mar 09 - 10:58 AM
TheSnail 30 Mar 09 - 11:08 AM
Howard Jones 30 Mar 09 - 11:18 AM
Jack Blandiver 30 Mar 09 - 11:44 AM
Phil Edwards 30 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Mar 09 - 12:57 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 30 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM
Jack Blandiver 30 Mar 09 - 01:38 PM
Goose Gander 30 Mar 09 - 02:10 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Mar 09 - 02:15 PM
Goose Gander 30 Mar 09 - 02:19 PM
Jack Blandiver 30 Mar 09 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,glueman 30 Mar 09 - 02:43 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 30 Mar 09 - 02:43 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Mar 09 - 02:52 PM
John P 30 Mar 09 - 03:11 PM
Goose Gander 30 Mar 09 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,glueman 30 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM
Don Firth 30 Mar 09 - 03:43 PM
Don Firth 30 Mar 09 - 04:00 PM
Phil Edwards 30 Mar 09 - 04:06 PM
Art Thieme 30 Mar 09 - 04:16 PM
Spleen Cringe 30 Mar 09 - 04:20 PM
John P 30 Mar 09 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,glueman 30 Mar 09 - 05:21 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Mar 09 - 05:22 PM
Phil Edwards 30 Mar 09 - 05:28 PM
Phil Edwards 30 Mar 09 - 05:38 PM
Howard Jones 30 Mar 09 - 06:10 PM
Spleen Cringe 30 Mar 09 - 06:56 PM
Ian Fyvie 30 Mar 09 - 08:03 PM
GUEST,glueman 31 Mar 09 - 03:25 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 31 Mar 09 - 04:51 AM
Will Fly 31 Mar 09 - 05:12 AM
GUEST,glueman 31 Mar 09 - 05:14 AM
Jack Blandiver 31 Mar 09 - 05:46 AM
TheSnail 31 Mar 09 - 06:08 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 31 Mar 09 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,glueman 31 Mar 09 - 06:48 AM
Jack Blandiver 31 Mar 09 - 08:20 AM
Will Fly 31 Mar 09 - 08:36 AM
Jack Blandiver 31 Mar 09 - 09:16 AM
Howard Jones 31 Mar 09 - 09:39 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 31 Mar 09 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 31 Mar 09 - 09:58 AM
Jack Blandiver 31 Mar 09 - 10:13 AM
Jack Blandiver 31 Mar 09 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,glueman 31 Mar 09 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 31 Mar 09 - 11:44 AM
Phil Edwards 31 Mar 09 - 12:06 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 31 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM
Phil Edwards 31 Mar 09 - 01:58 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 31 Mar 09 - 02:14 PM
Phil Edwards 31 Mar 09 - 03:06 PM
Jack Blandiver 31 Mar 09 - 03:25 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 31 Mar 09 - 03:31 PM
Spleen Cringe 31 Mar 09 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,glueman 31 Mar 09 - 04:15 PM
Don Firth 31 Mar 09 - 04:23 PM
Phil Edwards 31 Mar 09 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,glueman 31 Mar 09 - 05:14 PM
Goose Gander 31 Mar 09 - 05:35 PM
Stringsinger 31 Mar 09 - 06:21 PM
greg stephens 31 Mar 09 - 06:44 PM
Don Firth 31 Mar 09 - 07:24 PM
Spleen Cringe 31 Mar 09 - 07:30 PM
John P 31 Mar 09 - 08:13 PM
M.Ted 31 Mar 09 - 09:38 PM
Jack Blandiver 01 Apr 09 - 04:20 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 01 Apr 09 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,glueman 01 Apr 09 - 04:41 AM
Will Fly 01 Apr 09 - 05:02 AM
Jack Blandiver 01 Apr 09 - 05:49 AM
greg stephens 01 Apr 09 - 05:54 AM
Jack Blandiver 01 Apr 09 - 06:11 AM
GUEST,glueman 01 Apr 09 - 06:47 AM
greg stephens 01 Apr 09 - 06:59 AM
TheSnail 01 Apr 09 - 07:09 AM
greg stephens 01 Apr 09 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,glueman 01 Apr 09 - 08:55 AM
Jack Blandiver 01 Apr 09 - 10:24 AM
M.Ted 01 Apr 09 - 10:28 AM
Will Fly 01 Apr 09 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,glueman 01 Apr 09 - 11:32 AM
TheSnail 01 Apr 09 - 11:38 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 01 Apr 09 - 12:06 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Apr 09 - 12:14 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 01 Apr 09 - 12:26 PM
Goose Gander 01 Apr 09 - 12:58 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Apr 09 - 12:59 PM
Jack Blandiver 01 Apr 09 - 01:00 PM
Jack Blandiver 01 Apr 09 - 01:10 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 01 Apr 09 - 01:53 PM
Goose Gander 01 Apr 09 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,glueman 01 Apr 09 - 02:37 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 01 Apr 09 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,glueman 01 Apr 09 - 03:12 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 01 Apr 09 - 03:23 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Apr 09 - 03:28 PM
Jack Blandiver 01 Apr 09 - 04:46 PM
Don Firth 01 Apr 09 - 04:55 PM
Jack Blandiver 01 Apr 09 - 05:15 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Apr 09 - 05:23 PM
Howard Jones 01 Apr 09 - 05:59 PM
Don Firth 01 Apr 09 - 06:14 PM
Jack Blandiver 01 Apr 09 - 07:01 PM
Howard Jones 01 Apr 09 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,glueman 01 Apr 09 - 07:43 PM
Don Firth 01 Apr 09 - 09:33 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Apr 09 - 09:45 PM
M.Ted 01 Apr 09 - 10:01 PM
Phil Edwards 02 Apr 09 - 03:02 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 02 Apr 09 - 04:42 AM
Howard Jones 02 Apr 09 - 05:41 AM
Jack Blandiver 02 Apr 09 - 05:49 AM
Will Fly 02 Apr 09 - 05:57 AM
Jack Blandiver 02 Apr 09 - 06:01 AM
Will Fly 02 Apr 09 - 06:06 AM
GUEST,glueman 02 Apr 09 - 06:57 AM
M.Ted 02 Apr 09 - 07:29 AM
Howard Jones 02 Apr 09 - 08:17 AM
Howard Jones 02 Apr 09 - 08:25 AM
Howard Jones 02 Apr 09 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,glueman 02 Apr 09 - 08:52 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 02 Apr 09 - 12:35 PM
Don Firth 02 Apr 09 - 02:27 PM
Jack Blandiver 02 Apr 09 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Ed 02 Apr 09 - 03:06 PM
Goose Gander 02 Apr 09 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,Ed 02 Apr 09 - 03:10 PM
M.Ted 02 Apr 09 - 03:34 PM
Don Firth 02 Apr 09 - 03:38 PM
Spleen Cringe 02 Apr 09 - 03:55 PM
Spleen Cringe 02 Apr 09 - 04:08 PM
Art Thieme 02 Apr 09 - 04:43 PM
Don Firth 02 Apr 09 - 04:50 PM
Spleen Cringe 02 Apr 09 - 05:26 PM
Phil Edwards 02 Apr 09 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,glueman 02 Apr 09 - 06:37 PM
Phil Edwards 02 Apr 09 - 07:06 PM
Betsy 02 Apr 09 - 07:21 PM
Don Firth 02 Apr 09 - 09:13 PM
M.Ted 03 Apr 09 - 01:19 AM
GUEST 03 Apr 09 - 03:14 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 03 Apr 09 - 04:37 AM
Jack Blandiver 03 Apr 09 - 04:41 AM
Jack Blandiver 03 Apr 09 - 04:42 AM
Phil Edwards 03 Apr 09 - 04:46 AM
Will Fly 03 Apr 09 - 05:08 AM
Jack Blandiver 03 Apr 09 - 05:09 AM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Ed 03 Apr 09 - 05:15 AM
Jack Blandiver 03 Apr 09 - 05:57 AM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 06:47 AM
Phil Edwards 03 Apr 09 - 07:21 AM
Will Fly 03 Apr 09 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 03 Apr 09 - 08:49 AM
Will Fly 03 Apr 09 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 09:06 AM
Will Fly 03 Apr 09 - 09:32 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 03 Apr 09 - 09:38 AM
DMcG 03 Apr 09 - 11:12 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 03 Apr 09 - 11:36 AM
Will Fly 03 Apr 09 - 12:00 PM
DMcG 03 Apr 09 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 12:21 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 03 Apr 09 - 12:32 PM
TheSnail 03 Apr 09 - 12:51 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 03 Apr 09 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 01:23 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 03 Apr 09 - 01:53 PM
Howard Jones 03 Apr 09 - 02:13 PM
DMcG 03 Apr 09 - 02:44 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 03 Apr 09 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 03:00 PM
Jack Blandiver 03 Apr 09 - 03:12 PM
Spleen Cringe 03 Apr 09 - 03:43 PM
John P 03 Apr 09 - 03:46 PM
Jack Blandiver 03 Apr 09 - 03:54 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 03 Apr 09 - 04:17 PM
Phil Edwards 03 Apr 09 - 04:30 PM
Phil Edwards 03 Apr 09 - 04:34 PM
Don Firth 03 Apr 09 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 04:57 PM
Don Firth 03 Apr 09 - 05:20 PM
John P 03 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 05:39 PM
Don Firth 03 Apr 09 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 06:00 PM
Jack Blandiver 03 Apr 09 - 06:26 PM
Don Firth 03 Apr 09 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 06:40 PM
John P 03 Apr 09 - 06:54 PM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 07:04 PM
John P 03 Apr 09 - 07:25 PM
John P 03 Apr 09 - 07:41 PM
GUEST,glueman 03 Apr 09 - 07:49 PM
Don Firth 03 Apr 09 - 08:12 PM
John P 03 Apr 09 - 09:37 PM
Peace 04 Apr 09 - 02:28 AM
GUEST,glueman 04 Apr 09 - 03:50 AM
Spleen Cringe 04 Apr 09 - 04:07 AM
Phil Edwards 04 Apr 09 - 04:08 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 04 Apr 09 - 04:45 AM
Jack Blandiver 04 Apr 09 - 05:05 AM
Spleen Cringe 04 Apr 09 - 05:05 AM
GUEST,glueman 04 Apr 09 - 05:25 AM
Jack Blandiver 04 Apr 09 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,glueman 04 Apr 09 - 05:45 AM
Howard Jones 04 Apr 09 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,glueman 04 Apr 09 - 08:21 AM
M.Ted 04 Apr 09 - 10:59 AM
John P 04 Apr 09 - 11:22 AM
John P 04 Apr 09 - 11:36 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 04 Apr 09 - 12:18 PM
Darowyn 04 Apr 09 - 01:17 PM
Spleen Cringe 04 Apr 09 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,glueman 04 Apr 09 - 01:26 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 04 Apr 09 - 01:36 PM
Spleen Cringe 04 Apr 09 - 01:50 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 04 Apr 09 - 02:29 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 09 - 02:42 PM
John P 04 Apr 09 - 02:50 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 04 Apr 09 - 03:01 PM
Peace 04 Apr 09 - 03:16 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 09 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,glueman 04 Apr 09 - 03:33 PM
Don Firth 04 Apr 09 - 03:52 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 04 Apr 09 - 04:04 PM
Phil Edwards 04 Apr 09 - 06:52 PM
M.Ted 04 Apr 09 - 06:56 PM
Don Firth 04 Apr 09 - 07:39 PM
M.Ted 05 Apr 09 - 02:01 AM
M.Ted 05 Apr 09 - 02:03 AM
DMcG 05 Apr 09 - 03:47 AM
Spleen Cringe 05 Apr 09 - 05:27 AM
Howard Jones 05 Apr 09 - 05:32 AM
DMcG 05 Apr 09 - 08:01 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 05 Apr 09 - 03:23 PM
Don Firth 05 Apr 09 - 03:28 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 05 Apr 09 - 04:08 PM
Don Firth 05 Apr 09 - 04:53 PM
M.Ted 05 Apr 09 - 05:27 PM
Don Firth 05 Apr 09 - 07:47 PM
Howard Jones 06 Apr 09 - 04:44 AM
Jack Blandiver 06 Apr 09 - 05:05 AM
Phil Edwards 06 Apr 09 - 06:50 AM
TheSnail 06 Apr 09 - 07:03 AM
Jack Blandiver 06 Apr 09 - 07:42 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 09 - 10:46 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 09 - 11:30 AM
Stringsinger 06 Apr 09 - 11:53 AM
Jack Blandiver 06 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 06 Apr 09 - 12:13 PM
Goose Gander 06 Apr 09 - 12:33 PM
TheSnail 06 Apr 09 - 01:51 PM
Jack Blandiver 06 Apr 09 - 02:41 PM
Don Firth 06 Apr 09 - 02:56 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 09 - 03:18 PM
Goose Gander 06 Apr 09 - 03:27 PM
Spleen Cringe 06 Apr 09 - 03:33 PM
Phil Edwards 06 Apr 09 - 03:35 PM
Phil Edwards 06 Apr 09 - 03:44 PM
Spleen Cringe 06 Apr 09 - 03:47 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 09 - 04:29 PM
M.Ted 06 Apr 09 - 05:26 PM
Jack Blandiver 06 Apr 09 - 06:38 PM
Don Firth 06 Apr 09 - 07:29 PM
Spleen Cringe 06 Apr 09 - 08:04 PM
Don Firth 06 Apr 09 - 08:38 PM
Peace 06 Apr 09 - 08:43 PM
curmudgeon 06 Apr 09 - 08:54 PM
M.Ted 06 Apr 09 - 09:12 PM
Jack Blandiver 07 Apr 09 - 02:32 AM
Peace 07 Apr 09 - 02:39 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Apr 09 - 02:48 AM
GUEST,glueman 07 Apr 09 - 02:53 AM
Spleen Cringe 07 Apr 09 - 03:02 AM
GUEST,glueman 07 Apr 09 - 03:22 AM
Howard Jones 07 Apr 09 - 05:11 AM
TheSnail 07 Apr 09 - 05:33 AM
Phil Edwards 07 Apr 09 - 05:42 AM
TheSnail 07 Apr 09 - 05:48 AM
Jack Blandiver 07 Apr 09 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,glueman 07 Apr 09 - 06:21 AM
Phil Edwards 07 Apr 09 - 06:32 AM
Jack Blandiver 07 Apr 09 - 06:45 AM
Howard Jones 07 Apr 09 - 07:30 AM
Tug the Cox 07 Apr 09 - 08:13 AM
GUEST, Sminky 07 Apr 09 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Spleen O'Cookieless 07 Apr 09 - 08:35 AM
GUEST, Sminky 07 Apr 09 - 08:45 AM
Jack Blandiver 07 Apr 09 - 08:55 AM
GUEST, Sminky 07 Apr 09 - 08:57 AM
Jack Blandiver 07 Apr 09 - 09:00 AM
TheSnail 07 Apr 09 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,glueman 07 Apr 09 - 09:17 AM
Jack Blandiver 07 Apr 09 - 11:42 AM
Goose Gander 07 Apr 09 - 11:51 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 07 Apr 09 - 12:06 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 07 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM
Phil Edwards 07 Apr 09 - 12:24 PM
John P 07 Apr 09 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,glueman 07 Apr 09 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 07 Apr 09 - 12:54 PM
TheSnail 07 Apr 09 - 01:04 PM
Joe Offer 07 Apr 09 - 01:16 PM
Don Firth 07 Apr 09 - 01:32 PM
Don Firth 07 Apr 09 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,glueman 07 Apr 09 - 01:43 PM
Phil Edwards 07 Apr 09 - 02:15 PM
Don Firth 07 Apr 09 - 02:22 PM
Don Firth 07 Apr 09 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,glueman 07 Apr 09 - 02:56 PM
Jack Blandiver 07 Apr 09 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,glueman 07 Apr 09 - 03:34 PM
Phil Edwards 07 Apr 09 - 03:43 PM
Goose Gander 07 Apr 09 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,glueman 07 Apr 09 - 03:53 PM
Don Firth 07 Apr 09 - 04:10 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Apr 09 - 04:48 PM
Jack Blandiver 07 Apr 09 - 05:14 PM
Don Firth 07 Apr 09 - 07:08 PM
Phil Edwards 07 Apr 09 - 07:27 PM
Peace 07 Apr 09 - 09:42 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Apr 09 - 02:25 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Apr 09 - 02:37 AM
Howard Jones 08 Apr 09 - 04:30 AM
Jack Blandiver 08 Apr 09 - 04:32 AM
GUEST,glueman 08 Apr 09 - 05:16 AM
GUEST, Sminky 08 Apr 09 - 05:57 AM
Phil Edwards 08 Apr 09 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 08 Apr 09 - 07:20 AM
Jack Blandiver 08 Apr 09 - 07:29 AM
TheSnail 08 Apr 09 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,glueman 08 Apr 09 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 08 Apr 09 - 08:13 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 08 Apr 09 - 08:22 AM
Phil Edwards 08 Apr 09 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,glueman 08 Apr 09 - 09:06 AM
Jack Blandiver 08 Apr 09 - 09:26 AM
John P 08 Apr 09 - 12:23 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 08 Apr 09 - 12:32 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 08 Apr 09 - 12:43 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Apr 09 - 02:40 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 08 Apr 09 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,glueman 08 Apr 09 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,glueman 08 Apr 09 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 08 Apr 09 - 05:24 PM
Phil Edwards 08 Apr 09 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,glueman 08 Apr 09 - 05:40 PM
John P 08 Apr 09 - 05:44 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Apr 09 - 06:13 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Apr 09 - 06:16 PM
Jack Blandiver 09 Apr 09 - 04:27 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Apr 09 - 04:38 AM
Howard Jones 09 Apr 09 - 04:54 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Apr 09 - 05:14 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Apr 09 - 06:34 AM
Will Fly 09 Apr 09 - 07:15 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Apr 09 - 07:49 AM
Phil Edwards 09 Apr 09 - 08:16 AM
Phil Edwards 09 Apr 09 - 08:18 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 09 - 09:44 AM
GUEST, Sminky 09 Apr 09 - 09:52 AM
TheSnail 09 Apr 09 - 10:05 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Apr 09 - 10:58 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 09 - 11:15 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 09 - 12:34 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Apr 09 - 12:50 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 09 - 01:16 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Apr 09 - 03:05 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 09 - 03:06 PM
Howard Jones 09 Apr 09 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,glueman 09 Apr 09 - 03:37 PM
Don Firth 09 Apr 09 - 03:45 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM
Howard Jones 09 Apr 09 - 07:23 PM
TheSnail 09 Apr 09 - 07:48 PM
Phil Edwards 09 Apr 09 - 08:04 PM
TheSnail 09 Apr 09 - 08:14 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 09 - 04:08 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Apr 09 - 04:49 AM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 05:04 AM
Phil Edwards 10 Apr 09 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 10 Apr 09 - 05:36 AM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 05:58 AM
Spleen Cringe 10 Apr 09 - 07:04 AM
Spleen Cringe 10 Apr 09 - 10:42 AM
John P 10 Apr 09 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 01:07 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 09 - 01:08 PM
Phil Edwards 10 Apr 09 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 01:50 PM
Goose Gander 10 Apr 09 - 02:06 PM
John P 10 Apr 09 - 02:26 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 09 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 02:31 PM
Goose Gander 10 Apr 09 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 02:45 PM
Goose Gander 10 Apr 09 - 03:13 PM
Darowyn 10 Apr 09 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 03:25 PM
John P 10 Apr 09 - 03:39 PM
Spleen Cringe 10 Apr 09 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 04:08 PM
Jack Blandiver 10 Apr 09 - 04:12 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 09 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 06:57 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 09 - 03:08 AM
Darowyn 11 Apr 09 - 03:46 AM
GUEST,glueman 11 Apr 09 - 03:59 AM
Jack Blandiver 11 Apr 09 - 04:04 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 09 - 04:24 AM
Jack Blandiver 11 Apr 09 - 04:44 AM
Spleen Cringe 11 Apr 09 - 05:13 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 09 - 05:29 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 09 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,glueman 11 Apr 09 - 05:41 AM
Phil Edwards 11 Apr 09 - 05:51 AM
Jack Blandiver 11 Apr 09 - 06:37 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 09 - 07:05 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 09 - 09:45 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 11 Apr 09 - 12:44 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 09 - 01:01 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 11 Apr 09 - 02:11 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 09 - 02:14 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 11 Apr 09 - 02:25 PM
Jack Blandiver 11 Apr 09 - 03:34 PM
Phil Edwards 11 Apr 09 - 04:31 PM
Jack Blandiver 11 Apr 09 - 04:44 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Apr 09 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,glueman 12 Apr 09 - 04:43 AM
Jack Blandiver 12 Apr 09 - 05:12 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Apr 09 - 03:09 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Apr 09 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,glueman 12 Apr 09 - 03:31 PM
Don Firth 12 Apr 09 - 04:19 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Apr 09 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 13 Apr 09 - 04:10 AM
Jack Blandiver 13 Apr 09 - 04:32 AM
GUEST,glueman 13 Apr 09 - 04:35 AM
Phil Edwards 13 Apr 09 - 04:50 AM
Jack Blandiver 13 Apr 09 - 05:48 AM
GUEST 13 Apr 09 - 06:55 AM
GUEST 13 Apr 09 - 07:11 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 13 Apr 09 - 08:01 AM
Jack Blandiver 13 Apr 09 - 08:02 AM
Jack Blandiver 13 Apr 09 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,glueman 13 Apr 09 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Strippers Routines 13 Apr 09 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 13 Apr 09 - 12:00 PM
Goose Gander 13 Apr 09 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,glueman 13 Apr 09 - 12:26 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Apr 09 - 01:11 PM
Don Firth 13 Apr 09 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,glueman 13 Apr 09 - 01:25 PM
TheSnail 13 Apr 09 - 01:38 PM
Jack Blandiver 13 Apr 09 - 03:35 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Apr 09 - 03:42 PM
Jack Blandiver 13 Apr 09 - 03:54 PM
Don Firth 13 Apr 09 - 04:22 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 13 Apr 09 - 04:49 PM
Phil Edwards 13 Apr 09 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,glueman 13 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM
Jack Blandiver 13 Apr 09 - 05:56 PM
Goose Gander 13 Apr 09 - 06:45 PM
Goose Gander 13 Apr 09 - 06:47 PM
GUEST,glueman 13 Apr 09 - 06:50 PM
Goose Gander 13 Apr 09 - 06:55 PM
Don Firth 13 Apr 09 - 07:16 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 09 - 03:20 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 09 - 03:40 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Apr 09 - 03:56 AM
GUEST,glueman 14 Apr 09 - 04:00 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Apr 09 - 04:03 AM
Howard Jones 14 Apr 09 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,glueman 14 Apr 09 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 09 - 05:16 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Apr 09 - 05:19 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 14 Apr 09 - 06:40 AM
GUEST,glueman 14 Apr 09 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 09 - 07:08 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 09 - 07:19 AM
Sailor Ron 14 Apr 09 - 07:49 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 09 - 07:58 AM
Phil Edwards 14 Apr 09 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,glueman 14 Apr 09 - 09:19 AM
Phil Edwards 14 Apr 09 - 10:28 AM
TheSnail 14 Apr 09 - 11:10 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Apr 09 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,glueman 14 Apr 09 - 11:17 AM
George Papavgeris 14 Apr 09 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,glueman 14 Apr 09 - 11:36 AM
Goose Gander 14 Apr 09 - 11:57 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 14 Apr 09 - 12:15 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 09 - 12:16 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 14 Apr 09 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,glueman 14 Apr 09 - 12:38 PM
Goose Gander 14 Apr 09 - 01:04 PM
TheSnail 14 Apr 09 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,glueman 14 Apr 09 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 09 - 01:34 PM
Goose Gander 14 Apr 09 - 01:59 PM
Phil Edwards 14 Apr 09 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,glueman 14 Apr 09 - 02:16 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 09 - 02:35 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 09 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,glueman 14 Apr 09 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,glueman 14 Apr 09 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,glueman 14 Apr 09 - 04:08 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 09 - 04:59 PM
M.Ted 14 Apr 09 - 08:29 PM
TheSnail 14 Apr 09 - 08:59 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 09 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Apr 09 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 09 - 04:24 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 04:35 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 04:52 AM
Phil Edwards 15 Apr 09 - 05:24 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 06:34 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 06:54 AM
GUEST 15 Apr 09 - 07:00 AM
GUEST 15 Apr 09 - 07:11 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 07:20 AM
Phil Edwards 15 Apr 09 - 07:54 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 09 - 08:17 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 09 - 08:23 AM
Howard Jones 15 Apr 09 - 08:37 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 09 - 10:04 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 10:13 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 10:22 AM
John P 15 Apr 09 - 10:22 AM
TheSnail 15 Apr 09 - 10:36 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,glueman 15 Apr 09 - 10:46 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 09 - 10:48 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 09 - 11:18 AM
Phil Edwards 15 Apr 09 - 12:00 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 12:19 PM
John P 15 Apr 09 - 12:23 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 12:36 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 15 Apr 09 - 12:54 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 01:02 PM
Goose Gander 15 Apr 09 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,glueman 15 Apr 09 - 01:36 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 15 Apr 09 - 01:43 PM
John P 15 Apr 09 - 01:44 PM
Phil Edwards 15 Apr 09 - 02:36 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 09 - 02:43 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 15 Apr 09 - 02:55 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 15 Apr 09 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Apr 09 - 03:07 PM
TheSnail 15 Apr 09 - 03:28 PM
Don Firth 15 Apr 09 - 03:50 PM
John P 15 Apr 09 - 04:01 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 04:18 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 09 - 04:44 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 04:54 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 09 - 05:06 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 09 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,Peace 15 Apr 09 - 05:43 PM
Phil Edwards 15 Apr 09 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Apr 09 - 06:35 PM
John P 15 Apr 09 - 06:44 PM
Howard Jones 15 Apr 09 - 06:54 PM
John P 15 Apr 09 - 10:02 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Apr 09 - 03:30 AM
Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 09 - 04:27 AM
Howard Jones 16 Apr 09 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Apr 09 - 05:11 AM
Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 09 - 06:47 AM
Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 09 - 06:50 AM
Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 09 - 07:18 AM
Howard Jones 16 Apr 09 - 09:11 AM
John P 16 Apr 09 - 10:30 AM
John P 16 Apr 09 - 10:54 AM
Sailor Ron 16 Apr 09 - 11:44 AM
Goose Gander 16 Apr 09 - 11:48 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 16 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM
Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 09 - 12:14 PM
Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 09 - 12:27 PM
Goose Gander 16 Apr 09 - 12:39 PM
The Sandman 16 Apr 09 - 01:37 PM
TheSnail 16 Apr 09 - 01:46 PM
High Hopes (inactive) 16 Apr 09 - 01:47 PM
Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 09 - 02:21 PM
Goose Gander 16 Apr 09 - 02:38 PM
John P 16 Apr 09 - 02:44 PM
Jack Blandiver 16 Apr 09 - 03:07 PM
John P 16 Apr 09 - 03:29 PM
Howard Jones 16 Apr 09 - 05:21 PM
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Howard Jones 16 Apr 09 - 06:06 PM
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Subject: 1954 and All That
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:17 AM

Further to what is currently going down on the What Makes it a Folk Song? thread, I'm opening this up specifically to discuss what relevance, if any, the 1954 definition has to do with what actually happens in the name of Folk in 2009.

The 1954 definition:

Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are:

      (i) continuity which links the present with the past;
      (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group;
      (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.

The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.
The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.


My feeling is that a Folk Song is any song sung in a designated Folk Context. At other times, and in other contexts, the same song might be something else entirely, a Pop Song for example, or yet a Jazz Standard, a Victorian Parlour Ballad, a Musical Hall Song or even an Operatic Aria. All of these I have heard sung in Folk Contexts and have, by dint of that context, accepted them as being Folk Songs. So what makes a song a Folk Song is the context in which it is being sung and appreciated as such.

I don't believe there is anything in the 1954 definition to contradict this, although others obviously do, for reasons which haven't as yet become clear. Your thoughts & erudition in this respect would be most welcome. Likewise, if you will, your experience of what is actually being sung in The Name of Folk these day and how you feel this fits, or doesn't fit, with the 1954 definition.

Where is WLD when you need him?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:54 AM

I don't see any reason to change a word of "the 1954 definition" (by whom?) as you quote it.

Modern commercial pop has its place, and may in many instances (I'm being kind here) be good stuff. But the nature of folk music has to do with the live, continuously changeable nature of songs which live and are propagated by "just folks", and just because they like 'em, with (little or) no profit motive or official sanction.   

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:57 AM

Maud Karpeles, World Folk Music Council. And yes, she was obviously right.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That
From: John P
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 12:13 PM

I prefer a musical definition to a venue-based one. Traditional music sounds different than most newly composed music. As a musician, this is the only definition that makes sense to me. I generally like melodies that have been through the folk process more than I like melodies that haven't. Please note: I'm not saying I dislike all modern music; I like a lot of it and play a lot of it. I'm also not saying that I like something just because it's traditional -- there are thousands of dreadfully boring traditional songs and tunes. But it's pretty easy to tell the old melodies from the new ones. I consider them different genres of music.

All that said, I like a lot of melodies that have been written by folks who are very immersed in traditional music. If the melody sounds just like traditional music, I don't have any problem calling it a traditional tune. The living, on-going tradition and all that.

Something I've been having fun watching lately is the folk process taking place in my own playing. I sometimes purposely "fix" a song to make it make more sense to me, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't as well. But I've had the opportunity lately to hear my source for tunes I've been doing for years. There's been an amazing amount of processing, totally unconsciously. These types of changes seem to sound more natural more consistently.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 12:20 PM

Okay, Sinister, so if I sing a folk song in my local opera house, that makes it an operatic aria?

That door swings both ways.

I'm with John P. on this.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 12:21 PM

"Maud Karpeles, World Folk Music Council. And yes, she was obviously right"

a personal opinion surely, so hardly objective


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 12:22 PM

I've always worried over the 1954 definition ever since I first read it, not because it's obscure or ill-defined or wrong, but because of the "known-ness" or "unkown-ness" of the historical process for any individual song.

For example, if the origins of a particular song, which has little variation in it and which has been supposed to have been "absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community", are - for whatever reason - made clear, does that change it from folk music into something else? Does the discovery of the original manuscript of the song - say - suddenly put into perspective as something else?

I'm not trying to be trivial or nitpick here, but to indicate that, from one viewpoint to another there are many shades of grey. And do we say that, by definition, all folk music ceased to be such the moment it was written down, recorded and fixed in time and space.

And I've always thought - as I indicated in a thread to that purpose some time ago - that the definition seems limited to songs and words, and that, the moment you consider tunes, a haze spreads everywhere. To Carolan or not to Carolan - that is the question?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That
From: curmudgeon
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 12:51 PM

"...a personal opinion surely, so hardly objective"

Maybe, but an opinion from one withar greater knowledge and understanding of the subject than most of the prattlers posting here.

Consider the term, "expert opinion" - Tom


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 01:02 PM

There's a proliferation of threads on this topic, and it's getting a little much.
Active today, we have
    1954 and all that
    What Makes it a Folk song
    What is a traditional singer
    Trad Song
    Steps in the folk process

Our usual policy is to have one thread active at a time on any given subject. In the future, try to continue discussions in a single thread and refrain from creating such a plethora of threads. It splits and confuses and duplicates the discussion when you do that.
"1954 and all that" doesn't fit our requirement for clarity in thread titles. I'm going to add something for clarity.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That
From: curmudgeon
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 01:03 PM

Thanks, Joe - Tom


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 01:11 PM

I've yet to see anything written here that would convince me that the so-called 1954 definition is right in any way shape or form.

It's an arguement that will never be settled one way or the other

and you're right, there are way to many prattlers on these threads.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 01:13 PM

The 1954 definition is open to interpretation depending on how you look at it. I think it opens to door for our current crop of singer-songwriters.

If anyone needs a defintion to justify folk music, it isn't worth listening to.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 01:34 PM

"We just sing for the joy of singing. We love to sing these songs, and see the people join in and the atmosphere it creates."

- Bob Copper. 2002


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 01:49 PM

Okay, Sinister, so if I sing a folk song in my local opera house, that makes it an operatic aria?

That door swings both ways.


As I said, an Operatic Aria becomes a Folk Song in a folk context. So if any song can become a Folk Song, what you should be asking is, can any song become an Operatic Aria if sung in an Operatic context? To which the answer is, undoubtedly, yes, with some considerable evidence.

Otherwise:

As for what makes a Traditional Song, the lines are clearer with respect of a canon of material collected, recorded, catalogued, cut and dried, sourced and analysed, numbered, indexed, with occasions, performers and variations duly noted. Sometimes Traditional Songs might be sung as Folk Songs, other times they might be sung as Classical Songs, Rock Songs, Wyrd-Folk Songs, Jazz Songs, or Pop Songs. Anything is possible with a Traditional Song - but the song, essentially, remains the same, whatever the context.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 02:44 PM

But really....what IS folk music????


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 02:51 PM

Music sung by the folk I suppose.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:07 PM

WLD,has left the forum.I cant say I blame him.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:07 PM

Oh shit, here come the horses. I'm gone.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:11 PM

More like "here comes the horseshit". Yet another thread designed only to flame.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:19 PM

Where's my parachute. . . ?   Oh, hell, just open the door!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:21 PM

Could someone please define "community" in the context of the definition? Exactly who is the community?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:27 PM

In all honesty I simply can't take this 1954 definition of what is folk music very seriously at all, nor the people that support it. I simply play the music for the love of it, that's why I got into the whole trad scene in the first place, just to have some fun. It really is that simple.

Community? Of that I have absolutely no idea at all.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:50 PM

Try defining "definition"

It boggles the mind why so many people enjoy fighting about a definition- and the discussion is usually brought up with full knowledge that no one will agree, and that any contrary opinion will automatically be considered wrong. Most people refuse to see a middle ground.

You can subtitle this - "When Altercockers Roamed the Earth"


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:52 PM

For better or worse, the "Ellis Island Syndrome" has its way with music in much the same way it did with people whose names were altered when they arrived here. We have, in this country (US) and, I'm sure, elsewhere a tendency to make things more understandable by filtering them through our peculiar experiences and expectations. When a piece of music gets to us from abroad, the language may seem stilted or difficult to manage for whatever reason, so we amend it to fit our needs. Sometimes it improves, sometimes it bastardizes, but, it is certainly effective. I suppose that this is a part of what we call the "folk process" too.

On another front, take any song with which you have enjoyed success and which you are repeatedly asked to perform. How many times have you varied the song if for no other reason than avoiding boredom?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:54 PM

Will Fly commented/asked:

And do we say that, by definition, all folk music ceased to be such the moment it was written down, recorded and fixed in time and space.

It depends on the result of the writing down or recording, and whether the song is in effect "fixed" thereafter. There has been a good deal of discussion on just this subject on Ballad-L recently (surprise!), and focusing on "Red River Valley". Most posters agreed (as I read it) that "Red River Valley" has become pretty much fixed in form, so that to that extent it's no longer alive and developing. It was a folk song, and is deserving of study on that account today, along with its earlier forms, but if it's fixed, no longer changing, it's no longer a live folk song. That is not to say that it won't at some time come back to life, although I personally tend to doubt that will happen.

On the other hand, quite a few folk or traditional songs, after publishing in print or recording, live on in the tradition and continue to change in parallel with the fixed, published version, and may indeed outlive the fixed form.

Someone on Ballad-L made the wise (I think) observation that the traditional nature of a piece of music or folk song is more a matter of process than of content. The judgment in that case should be whether the given piece develops and changes on its way through the minds, mouths, and fingers of "the folk". If a song (either the words or the music)--say through mondegreens, parody, singers' PC editing of words, or narrative recasting in some way--changes, and keeps changing, then that's a sure sign that it's part of the folk process.

If such a song is found to have been fixed as given in some published form (like RRV, above), and no further change takes place because people only know or remember or only approve of the "official" form, then it's not "in the tradition" any more. To put it another way, "tradition" is not a heavy hand, holding subsequent practitioners to the way things used to be, but rather a live arena for changing and developing both songs and instrumental music.

A song which began, say, in the 16th Century and still is around, being sung today, has been through the hands and minds of thousands of "editors" on its way to today, who may have improved it, may have harmed it, but assuredly have changed it over that time. A new song, however meritorious, which has not had the chance to run that gantlet of "editors" and the resultant change, can't, I don't believe, be considered "folk music" or "traditional music".

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM

I've actually started using the term "ethnic folk" to try to describe what we play. "Folk music" has come to mean pretty much anything, and "traditional folk" makes peoples' eyes glaze over, expecting dead boring performances by socially inept fuddy-duddies.

By the way, I don't care much about defining folk music as a part of my playing. Like most people, I play what I like and introduce it as seems appropriate to the situation. My only interest in definitions is so we can actually talk about the music. If we want to do away with definitions, we'll end up with classical, rap, and country western all in the same bin at the record store, and audiences that don't have any idea what they are in for when they go out to hear music.

Any musician who can't hear the difference between a traditional melody and a contemporary melody isn't paying attention.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 04:57 PM

Has the song survived the test of time?

Does it reflect a specific cultural milieu?

Are the many variants of the song?

Has the song been collected from a traditional source?

Is it accessible so that it can be learned more easily than an art, show or jazz song?

Has it been sung by many people who sometime change it along the way?

Usually, a folk song comes from an isolated community, most often rural.

A song can be written in a folk-style.

If you can copyright it, it probably isn't a real folk song although many folk song collectors have attempted to copyright public domain material. This was done
a lot in the Sixties.

General popularity of a song doesn't make it a folk song. If you don't believe that,
attempt to take a popular song and change it without eventually getting sued.

This is the flaw in thinking about ASCAP, BMI and commercially licensed songs, they are not part of the folk process of change and variation. This is what separates the folk song
from a commercial product whereby the author/composer receives compensation
for the use of the song.

In time, a commercially written song may become a folk song if the author/composer
is forgotten and the song changes with many variants.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 05:36 PM

More like "here comes the horseshit". Yet another thread designed only to flame.

If you'd bother read the OP, you'd see that this thread was designed to consider Folk Music in relation to what actually happens in designated Folk Contexts. What I'm proposing here is an inclusive definition of Folk Music based on the empirical evidence.

On an average night in our Folk Club (see HERE) we might hear Blues, Shanties, Kipling, Cicely Fox Smith, Musical Hall, George Formby, Pop, County, Dylan, Cohen, Cash, Medieval Latin, Beatles, Irish Jigs and Reels, Scottish Strathspeys, Gospel, Rock, Classical Guitar, Native American Chants, Operatic Arias and even the occasional Traditional Song and Ballad. We once had a floor singer who, in his own words, sang his own composition which he introduced with the Zen-like "...this is a folk song about rock 'n' roll...".

It all goes down am absolute storm, warmly welcomed and appreciated, irrespective of ability (don't worry, I'm not about raise any GEFF Ghosts here, even though I feel half the charm is in the shortfall between intention & result) and I'm sure we're not alone is this - a Folk Club being a place where people come to do pretty much what they like, but it remains, somehow Folk Music.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:21 PM

What I'm proposing here is an inclusive definition of Folk Music based on the empirical evidence.

I don't think you're proposing a definition at all, unless it's "Everything that's ever been heard (and enjoyed) by someone who went out that evening expecting to hear something called folk music".

I'm in two minds. I do like folk clubs - something happens there which is worth celebrating, even if you do sometimes end up listening to acoustic renditions of the works of Robbie Williams or heartfelt laments for the passing of apartheid. But I like traditional music more, and I think most folk clubs could benefit from putting on more of it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:51 PM

WTF is a "designated folk context"? Who is doing the designating? Or does it mean a place where folk music is performed? In which case, the OP's definition of a folk song is taking us around in circles.

If "folk song" means anything, it must mean traditional song, and the 1954 definition is as good an attempt at pinning that down as I've seen. All sorts of other music may be accepted in folk clubs (although that varies) but usually what determines its acceptability is the style of performance - if it's performed in a "folk style", whatever the origin, you'll probably get away with it. But they're not folk songs.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 09:54 PM

If I were to come to a folk club (presumably a "designated folk context") and sing "La Donna e Mobilé" from Giuseppe Verdi's Rigoletto, even if I accompanied it on my guitar, or sang it unaccompanied with my hand cupped over my ear, I don't think very many people would nod vigorously if I proclaimed it to be a folk song.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:39 PM

"If you'd bother read the OP, you'd see that this thread was designed to consider Folk Music in relation to what actually happens in designated Folk Contexts. What I'm proposing here is an inclusive definition of Folk Music based on the empirical evidence. "

...or, as I said, another thread designed only to flame.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:45 AM

Don't have too much time to be involved at present - we've just been offered the possibility of publishing some of our field work, including a collection of Irish Travellers songs, which we will probably call (somewhat unimaginatively) 'Folk Songs Of The Irish Travellers'.
In the meantime, a clarification.
If the 1954 definition was 'just an opinion' it was one based on extensive work carried out on the subject, largely by Cecil Sharp, the result of which was published in his 'English Folk Song, Some Conclusions'. The definition was certainly not the brainchild of one person, Maud Karpeles or whoever, but was finally arrived at by a gathering of people, also experienced in the subject, at 7th Conference of The International Folk Music Council at Sao Paulo in 1954 and was written up by 'Auntie Maud' in their journal the following year.
Let's not foul up any discussion with distortions and misinformation so early in the proceedings - there will be plenty of time for that later.
Whatever is 'decided', ie, whatever 'opinions' are expressed here, life will go on as normal elsewhere.
The term 'folk song', more or less coinciding with the details of the 1954 definition has been in use for over a century (see DK Wilgus's 'Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898'), and in the field of anthology and research this continues to be the case. Over the last few years I have availed myself of 'A History of European Folk Music' (pub. 1997), the 8th and final volume of 'The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection (2002), 'Folk Song - Tradition, Revival and Recreation' (2004), and 'Folk In Print - Scotland's Chapbook Heritage' (2007).
Whatever happens to the folk revival in the future (I strongly believe that this has been in the balance for some time now), and whatever 'we few, we happy few, we band of brothers' decide what should be the 'correct' definition of the term 'folk', it is titles such as these which will survive as an account of folk music in the 20th and 21st century.
Let the games begin!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:47 AM

PS What is a 'designated folk context' and who gets to designate it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Darowyn
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:08 AM

I think you would probably get away with "La Donna E Mobile" as long as you had an introductory verse explaining that you were walking out on a fine May morning (possibly in order to hear the small birds sing) when you happened to overhear a young Italian, and that these were the words he did say.....
I'm being flippant, but that is because I really do not care about the 1954 definition. It was a good try at the time, but just like folk songs, words are in the public domain and are used to mean what the public want them to mean, at that time. Words come and go and meanings change.
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:33 AM

Designated Folk Contexts: Folk Club, Folk Festival, Singaround etc. Where Folkies gather.

If "folk song" means anything, it must mean traditional song,

No. A Traditional Song is a Traditional Song. A Folk Song, it would appear, can be pretty much anything (including a Traditional Song). This is based on 35 years of experience of folk clubs, sessions, festivals & singarounds.

But I like traditional music more, and I think most folk clubs could benefit from putting on more of it.

Me too, but that's evidently not the case. I'm trying to arrive at an appreciation, if not an actual definition of Folk Music (in particular Folk Song) based on the reality of the situation rather than any Traddy Ideal such as that set out by the 1954, which, as I've indicated elsewhere (see HERE is really too vague to be of any use whatsoever.

'Folk In Print - Scotland's Chapbook Heritage' (2007).

According to the 1954: "...it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community." So is The Chapbook Heritage a case of exceptions proving rules? Or is it a further indication of just how flabby, ill-considered and unrealistic the 1954 definition actually is?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:41 AM

...it is titles such as these which will survive as an account of folk music in the 20th and 21st century.

Just as when there are no birds left ornithologists will be glad of the books!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:49 AM

"According to the 1954: "...it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community." So is The Chapbook Heritage a case of exceptions proving rules? Or is it a further indication of just how flabby, ill-considered and unrealistic the 1954 definition actually is?"

I think too much can be made of this. An individual musician writing down a tune or a song as an aide memoire does not invalidate the idea of it being absorbed into a tradition. Other, different versions may still exist alongside. However if a published text is regarded as the definitive version, and referred to in order to ensure accuracy, then it is not a folk song.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 06:11 AM

Whilst the 1954 definition has its faults, it is a good attempt at defining a particular type of music which has special characteristics. Otherwise we are in horse territory.

It is true that the term "folk song" has come to have a wider meaning than this. However, defining a "folk song" as anything which can be heard in a folk club is not only too broad to have any meaning, it doesn't help with defining the popular usage. A pop song may be performed in a folk club, but it is still a pop song. It may have tbe potential to turn into a folk song, but only if it has started to show variations and absorption into a tradition; the obstacle to this is that the original definitive version is usually too widely known for this to easily happen.

For example, Swan Arcade used to do a stunning version of the Kinks' "Lola", which they regularly performed in "designated folk contexts". I don't think anyone, including those in the audience, would think of "Lola" as a folk song.

The problem with the OP's definition is that the audiences at "designated folk contexts" are actually usually fairly tolerant and will accept other genres of music, provided they are performed in a sympathetic way. So a pop song performed in a folk style may be accepted whereas a heavy metal version of a 1954-compliant folk song probably would not.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 06:31 AM

Jim Carroll

Don't have too much time to be involved at present - we've just been offered the possibility of publishing some of our field work, including a collection of Irish Travellers songs, which we will probably call (somewhat unimaginatively) 'Folk Songs Of The Irish Travellers'.

That is wonderful news, Jim. I'm so glad that you have overcome your instinct to "leave it on the shelf". It's obviously done you a power of good; the rest of that post is the most sensible and positive one from you that I have ever read.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 06:58 AM

"Designated Folk Contexts: Folk Club, Folk Festival, Singaround etc. Where Folkies gather."
You mean like the 7th Conference of the International Folk Music Council?
Is it really as arbitrary as that? If a folk club books a string quartet, does what they do automatically become 'folk' or do they have to fight for the title?
Howard just said it all regarding chap books, which were reportings of songs "which had already been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community". The argument as to the effect of writing down songs dates back at least to Walter' Scott's time when he was repremanded by James Hogg's mother for destroying them "bt writing them down".
"Just as when there are no birds left ornithologists will be glad of the books!"
Not sure what this means - I do know that the folk scene lost at least three quarters of its participants when a clear definition of 'folk' was abandoned and audiences no longer knew what they would be listening to when they turned up at a folk club.
I get tired of repeating it, but here in Ireland the music, more-or-less in it's pure form, is thriving, youngsters are flocking to it in their thousands, music teachers are turning away wannabe players because they can't cope, archives and folk music resource centres are springing up like mushrooms and asking for grants for the music (up to the present economic crisis) is an exercise in pushing on open doors - (there/that/teeshirt) - the reason; no ambiguity on what the music is or where it stands culturally, historically and socially.
Jim Carroll
PS - If we can't define 'folk' clearly how can we define what is 'a folk way of singing'.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 07:00 AM

"leave it on the shelf"."
Bit misleading Bryan - as you well know our collection has been freely accessible to the general public for at least twenty years at the NSA and Irish Traditional Music Archive.
Keep it clean lads.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 07:09 AM

Jim, I am genuinely celebrating what seems to me to be a real change of attitude on your part. You have so much to contribute.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 07:39 AM

Thank you Bryan - despite my early-morning crankiness, I'm flattered.
As I said, it's no more than an offer at present, and very much dependent on whather we want to spend our declining years producing collections for what appear to us to be a rapidly declining audience for what little we have to offer.
Re 'designated folk contexts' - does this mean that a song sung at one club can be regarded as a 'folk song' and not at another?
Why do I keep expecting a dormouse to emerge from the teapot and a white rabbit to peer at his pocket watch and tell me he's late?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 08:25 AM

So, according to the OP:

A "folk song" is any song performed in a "designated folk context"
A designated folk context is anywhere where "folkies" gather
Presumably "folkies" are people who like folk songs.

We seem to be in a logic loop here.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 08:37 AM

"whather we want to spend our declining years producing collections for what appear to us to be a rapidly declining audience for what little we have to offer."

I was under the impression that folk and traditional arts was having something of a dramatic incline in interest, and especially amongst twenty-somethings. Which suggests to me, that it might in fact be a most serendipitous time to start dusting off those archives...?

As for expecting visits from white rabbits and suchlike, I'd take it easy on the laudenum there Jim... ;-)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 08:49 AM

"Laudenum" - nothing so boring.
Jim


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 02:31 PM

Howard... a mobius strip, more like. There is no edge to fall off and so the discussion/argument whatever, never ends. See seventh circle of hell.

I already asked who the "community" is that distinguishes folk from other music. I have some really "impotent" questions to ask. Like:

Who the folk are you and who made you the final authority on the genre?

What are your folking qualifications?

Do you have any idea the kind of devisive havoc you have wreaked among well meaning folk?

Are you prepared to make amends by defining the genre in less woolly jumper terms?

Take that folking finger out of your ear. I am talking to you.


Sorry. Can't be too serious about this. I just want to sing and listen and learn. and I am tired of labels.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:09 PM

Virginia,
The devisive havoc already exists, largely due to the fact that folk clubs no longer do what it says on the tin.
I'm happy for you that you are happy with the way things are - some of us aren't and are prepared to spend time trying to do something about it.
Snide 'finger-in-ear' and 'wooly jumper' comments are as divisive as it gets.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:13 PM

"Sorry. Can't be too serious about this. I just want to sing and listen and learn. and I am tired of labels."

Well said Virginia!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:50 PM

"Are you prepared to make amends by defining the genre in less woolly jumper terms?"

Are you? Seriously - the only thing that keeps me coming back to these discussions, and stops me giving up on the 'folk' label altogether, is the lack of an alternative definition of 'folk'. You tell me: if you don't want 'folk' used to mean 'traditional', what do you think it should mean?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:11 PM

I'm not saying what Folk should be, I'm saying what it is. Thus do I differentiate it from Traditional, just I think of myself as a Traddy rather than a Folky, simply because of the utter nebulousness of the latter term.

My heart lifts at Jim's account of the state of play in Ireland, but things are very different over here. Now, instead of getting pissed off at the Folk / Trad disparity, or the state of play in the UK clubs, festivals etc. I've decided to operate on a far more inclusive understanding of what we think of as Folk, based, as I say, on the empirical evidence - on the reality of the situation and not on an ideal.

Folk is rather like Flotsam - just so many otherwise disparate diverse artefacts floating around in a particular context regardless of origin or eventual destination. It's all Flotsam.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:16 PM

We who live on Fantasy Island can define away as much as we like but the real 'folk' are much more democratic and will use the word 'folk' in its widest sense. To them just about everything that goes on in folk clubs and festivals is 'folk'. You can scream as much as you like, Knut, but the tide will still come in.

You need new terminology if you want to define things down to the last demi-semiquaver. Oh and you'll have to keep it very quiet otherwise the real folk will come along and nick it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:24 PM

the real 'folk' are much more democratic and will use the word 'folk' in its widest sense. To them just about everything that goes on in folk clubs and festivals is 'folk'.

Yes Yes Yes!!!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:49 PM

A tomato is a product of a flowering plant that contains seeds. A botanist would classify it as a fruit, or actually a berry. Yet every supermarket continues to hide this fruit in the vegetable section.   

People who look for tomatos in the fruit aisle are going to be at a loss and they will never be able to make sauce again. This will bring an end to pasta and pizza as we know it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 06:08 PM

"but things are very different over here."
I'm well aware of how things are over there; I spent 30 odd years singing at and helping run clubs there, that's why I still bother.
"but the real 'folk' are much more democratic and will use the word 'folk' in its widest sense."
The real folk don't give a toss and don't use the word in any sense. We never cross their minds and they certainly have no concept of what happens at clubs and festivals; that's why ball's in our court and why it's up to us to get it right - whatever right is. It certainly isn't junior schoolyard "finger-in-ear" name-calling.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 06:09 PM

The vast majority of the songs I sing are traditional songs and ballads.

But not all. I also do a few poems set to music (such as Byron's So We'll Go No More a-Roving, or Yeats's The Song of the Wandering Aengus, or James Joyce's Golden Hair [melody composed by a friend of mine], along with couple of songs from Shakespeare's plays—and so on. I don't try to pass these latter off as "folk songs." I tell my audiences what they are.

I try not to bill myself as a "folk singer." Other people usually do that for me. But I consider myself to be a singer-guitarist who sings a variety of songs and plays a bit of classical guitar, but the majority of the songs I sing are traditional songs and ballads; what most people refer to—or, at least, used to refer to—as "folk songs." I want people to know what I do so they can come to a performance with a fairly good idea of the kind of songs they're going to hear. I don't want people to come if they are expecting me to do a program of songs I have written, because (unlike many) I know my limitations and, although I write other things, I don't write songs.

I especially don't want them to stay away because they think they would be hearing songs written by me instead of hearing an evening of primarily traditional material.

Likewise, I don't want to go to a concert or other venue where the performer is billed as a "folk singer" expecting to hear traditional folk songs and ballads, and instead I hear only songs that he or she wrote, with nary a traditional song or ballad all evening.

I will, however, go to a performance by a singer-songwriter whose songs I like.

I do not want to go to an open mike which, I am told, is devoted to folk music, and be told that I can't sing because they want only singer-songwriters.

Time was when if someone says to me, "I hear you are a singer. What kind of songs do you sing?" I could respond that I sing folk songs, and that person then has a fairly good idea of what I do. If that same conversation occurs now, they haven't a clue as to what I sing.

Likewise, I don't like pop a couple of pieces of bread in the toaster, then open a jar of orange marmalade (according to the label) and find it's actually a jar of gherkins.

Clear?

Don Firth

P. S. Also posted on the other thread currently running.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 07:45 PM

People who look for tomatos in the fruit aisle are going to be at a loss and they will never be able to make sauce again.

I, like millions of others, would define a tomato according its culinary usage rather than its botanic taxonomy. So, being pragmatists rather than pedants, we look for them in the vegetable aisle. Is there anyone who would object to this I wonder? The sad thing is, I bet there are...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 07:53 PM

I'm with you 100% Sinister.

Everyone knows a tomato and as long as it tastes good and we know where to find it, there is no problem at all - no matter what a botanist may say.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 08:02 PM

Or...

I, like [dozens] of others, would define [Folk Music] according its [context] rather than [the 1954 definition]. So, being pragmatists rather than pedants, we look for [it] in [designated folk contexts].


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Betsy
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 08:40 PM

It's all in your own heads - if you agree with parameters of 1954, a definition which was written when times were different - i.e. no wide - scale Tele (in the UK ), no mass media etc.etc. then you limit yourselves.
Stop beating our selves-up. We're all old enough to know whether we as individuals consider The Wild Rover , or Streets of London is a folk song - it's in our own minds.
I personally, would be happy never again to play either song again in my lifetime , however in those family , friendly gatherings, which one attends from time to to , some arsehole always expects because I am a "folksinger" and I have them both complete wit Kumbaya -which they learned at Scout camp or the female version of it.
Bad examples you might say , but, I know of plenty of people who have been put off Folk music for life by a badly rendered Watercress-o.
Just enjoy it and stop putting fucking labels on it .


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 08:43 PM

In short, deuces wild. And every other card wild.

Why don't we go into the grocery store and peel the labels off everything?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Betsy
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 09:07 PM

Hiya Don ,as someone once said "two countries divided by a common language " - I don't know what to deduce by your comment.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 09:56 PM

Don - your analogy does not work.

Food is something you taste, smell and see. Music is something you hear. Either one can be packaged with a label, but it really doesn't matter until you experience the product.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 11:22 PM

Actually, Betsy, we cross-posted. My comment was in response to Sinister Supporter's.

And I'm sorry, Ron, but my comment is right on the money. When the concert poster or flier or record label or song book says "Folk Music," that's packaging and labelling.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 12:04 AM

If the poster, flier or record label does not say "folk music", would that change the contents? Do you honestly rely so much on a label that you could not tell if you are holding a tomato or a lemon?

Sorry, your analogy is not cutting it. You are relying on a crutch that is not required.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 12:45 AM

Ron, I don't think you're really so obtuse that you actually don't understand what I'm saying. When you tell me that you have steaks for sale, and I plunk down my money, you can't really blame me for getting a bit ticked if you hand me a wad of tofu. Is that so difficult to grasp?

It's past my bedtime. I'm going to bed.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 01:56 AM

Why go by the "1954 definition" when we can go by 19th century definitions? Isn't older better?

No, older is not necessarily better. Such heavily loaded terms vary in their definitions at different times. If "folk" didn't even exist in such usage before the 19th century, how can we feel so positive about its "correct" definition? What did they call the same phenomena before the advent of the term "folk"? And does anyone else feel uncomfortable with the fact that the term emerged hand in hand with certain notions of nationalism, the flipside of which is often ethnocentrism? These were the connotations of folk /volk from the late 19th century, the idea that there were discreet, "pure" ethnic ("national") communities which produced distinctive material culture through which their character could be known and through which, materially, "us" could be defined in distinction to "others."

Moving forward, how could we seriously trust a Cecil Sharp-era concept of "folk"? Didn't nationalism drive his work, as he pursued a notion of what was "English" through ascribing a repertoire of songs.
Let's say Karpeles was the next wave, but she inherited Sharp's legacy. These were people that had recently witnessed surges of industrialization which they feared were a threat to the "purity" of xyz nationalities. "Folk" in many ways meant to covey that which was.
The continued process of industrialization, mass media, and...most effectively....globalization forced people to rethink such quaint concepts. Anthropologists, ethnomusicologists, other theorists etc etc have surely redefined "folk" may times since the 1950s. And one cannot say that, oh well, they are academics whose ideas have not application to how we perceive "folk" on the ground...because the original idea of "folk" is an academic concept. (There seems to be a bit of double-standard in these discussions where academics are simultaneously disregarded as irrelevant while also cited as authorities.)

Gibb


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 03:31 AM

Define the air and the wind; define song and merriness of the heart. Define love. Leave folk music alone.


A


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Albertos
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 04:20 AM

When I read threads like this I realise what a bunch of wankers a lot of folkies are. They can't even begin to understand music if they have to have a "definition" supposedly published by some unknown collection of self ordained tosspots. Music is music wake up and smell the cocoa!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 04:26 AM

It occurs to me that there are two quite separate issues here. One is the meaning of "folk song", and the other is an attempt to define "folk" as a musical genre, mainly from a UK/US perspective. The two are quite different.

Folk music (traditional music if you prefer) is unique in that it shows a process of evolution. All songs, even folk songs, must have been composed by someone, however folk songs have been passed on and changed by generations of singers. That makes them different from "literary" compositions which continue to be played more or less as written.

The 1954 definition tells about this evolutionary process. It tells us nothing of the music itself. A 1954-compliant folk song from Indonesia sounds quite different from one from Britain or America.

The second definition is aesthetic - a musical genre as characterised by a certain sound. Music genres are identified by their characteristics - a certain musical structure, use of certain instruments. The trouble is, these characteristics are very difficult to put down in words and in any event are only guidelines rather than strict rules.

So, within "folk" in this sense, we have 1954 traditional music; we also have (like it or not) a range of other music, whose only unifying characteristic appears to be that it is usually acoustic, and it is trying to set boundaries to this range which presents so many problems. I think we all have a general idea what it means, it is applying it to specific examples which is difficult. But this is the point that Jim Carroll and Don Firth, for example, are making - that if you go to a "designated folk context" you should be able to know in advance what to expect. It is too much to ask now that it should be exclusively 1954 folk - with a few exceptions, hardly any folk clubs since the 1960s ever adopted that approach - but I agree that it should at the very least be based around that style of music.

The OP's suggestion that folk music is anything played in a "folk context" doesn't work - firstly, the logic is self-referring ( as I pointed out in a previous post) and secondly because different folk venues have different policies - some are strictly traditional, some are "anything goes". If you accept the "anything goes" approach then what is the point of trying to define it?

I suggest this test: if you were to put on a concert entirely made up of the type of music being offered, would you market it as "folk" and would you expect it to please a largely "folkie" audience? So, if someone wants to perform a Buddy Holly song, or a Robbie Williams song, or a Beatles song, at a folk club, ask yourself, "would I bill an entire evening of this material as 'folk'"?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 04:33 AM

I detect traces of what I've heard called "violent agreement" in this thread. What seems to be being confused is why anyone wants a definition. About half the people on this thread seem to object to the idea, and they want to be free to sing anything they like. I don't think anyone disagrees with that, actually, when it outside a context where other people are paying to hear you. But the other half are saying that they want a definition so that before hearing anything or knowing anything about the singer, they can make some sort of prediction of what they might hear. And this is useful because it enables them to decide whether or not to go to a certain club, or buy a CD speculatively and so on. I cannot believe anyone on this thread thinks it a good idea that you can never make such predictions beforehand.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 04:36 AM

Why is it that whenever a subject like this comes up - bang - sound of breaking door and in comes the heavy mob telling me what I should and should not be discussing. This will be the 'Folk Police' everybody talks about I presume (maybe they've opened a special 'forum protection branch' to make sure we don't disturb the little niche they've constructed for themselves on the ruins of what used to be a thriving and healthy scene where at one time I could go and listen to ballads (some of them even more than 2 minutes long) and shanties and bothy songs and bawdy pieces and all the other things it used to be worth leaving a warm television for).
If I drive across the county to visit a 'folk club' I've just read about and some burke gets up and sings American Pie, and another mutters something private enough to be unintelligable into his armpit, and another stumbles his or her way through something I vaguely recognise but I can't quite make out the tune or the words (which they are reading from a sheet of Andrex) and are not projecting loud enough to quite reach the third row, and, as they have forgotten their glasses they have to ask the audience what the next line is......... what do I do - suffer in silence and stay at home next time I see the word 'folk' advertised in the '''entertainment''' columns?
That's what I, and thousands like me did - we left the clubs to wallow in the shite-holes they'd been turned into by the 'anything goes merchants'?
Sorry - I'd rather try to win back a little of what we had before the tat-purveyors moved in:
a) Out of respect for the old singers I had the pleasure to meet and who gave me their songs, like Walter Pardon, who knew what folk music was and took the trouble to get it right before he stood up in front of an audience - and
b) So that others can experience a little of the enjoyment I had out of folk music before it was re- (or de-) defined.

"Just enjoy it and stop putting fucking labels on it"
Certainly ******* not; get back to Coronation Street and mind your own ******* business.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 05:34 AM

Howard Jones,
Sorry - didn't see your last posting.
I wish I'd said that - exactly what I mean.
Ditto D McG
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 06:05 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJhyDS_jd3I&feature=channel_page


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 06:44 AM

this is not folk music.the other Dick Miles
http://www.carlinamerica.com/titles/titles.cgi?MODULE=LYRICS&ID=905&terms=Co


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Betsy
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 06:50 AM

Thankyou Albertos - you made me chuckle.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 06:56 AM

Jim - sorry about the divisive comments. I don't know why I come into these threads. I guess because I want to learn. But I do not want to be scared away from something I have a passion for by academics. And I ceartainly do not want to be one who frightens new potential converts away.

Captain, - that is the kind of spine tingling beautiful I love hearing in sessions. It would be wonderful to attend sessions dedicated completely to "traditional folk". I hope I am naming it correctly. But it won't happen where I am.

I have to say that I also enjoy sessions which are mixed bag. And I fear that applying parameters to the label "folk" to only include the traditional song about the man of the field, ship, coalmine or woman at the loom, etc. limits the genre to a tiny blip that will eventually slip of the radar.

If "folk" were more inclusive, would it not draw more listeners and potetential performers who may delve deeper, learn more about its beginnings and keep the traditional stuff alive?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 07:19 AM

Thanks for My Son David, Dick - a masterful rendition & pretty much as I sing it myself (as learned from Thor Ewing, as learnt from Ewan McColl, as learnt from Jeanie Robertson).

*

...if "folk" were more inclusive, would it not draw more listeners and potetential performers who may delve deeper, learn more about its beginnings and keep the traditional stuff alive?

It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of that being the very case, although I doubt if anyone is ever tempted to delve deeper into the traditional stuff. And even if they were, this wouldn't be keeping it alive, because it died the death long ago (for my personal feelings on this see my blog The Liege, the Lief and the Traditional Folk Song, which collects some of my polemical musings from the sadly defunct Harvest Home forum, once affiliated to the sadly defunct Woven Wheat Whispers).

I say again, by defining folk as I have done throughout this thread, I'm not postulating an ideal, rather reflecting on the reality - obviously an uncomfortable reality for many of you, but a reality non the less. Have a listen to Folk On Two, or look to see who's performing at a Folk Festival Near You and see what I mean.

Folk is as it is, and I don't think a half dozen or so whining traddys is going to change that.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 08:23 AM

"I say again, by defining folk as I have done throughout this thread"
Different definition for each club, I seem to remember.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 08:43 AM

A lot of people use the term "folk music" in a way that does not fit the 1954 definition. I suspect that rather more use it that way than not.

There is absolutely nothing that anyone can do about it.

Make up your minds; what matters to you most, the music or the definition?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 09:03 AM

" I don't think you're really so obtuse that you actually don't understand what I'm saying. When you tell me that you have steaks for sale, and I plunk down my money, you can't really blame me for getting a bit ticked if you hand me a wad of tofu. Is that so difficult to grasp?"

Don't be so snotty Don, I am trying to have a reasonable discussion with you and explain why your analogy does not work.   

If you are handed tofu instead of steak, you know what you have been handed and your reaction is easy. When you ask for a steak, that is just the start. Do you want a porterhouse, t-bone, sirloin or something else? You might make an assumption that you want beef - but steaks can come from other animals and fish.    When you walk into a store, you do no ask for "folk music" and expect to know what the contents will be.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 10:39 AM

It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of that being the very case, although I doubt if anyone is ever tempted to delve deeper into the traditional stuff.
...
I say again, by defining folk as I have done throughout this thread, I'm not postulating an ideal, rather reflecting on the reality


But how are you defining folk, other than as "what you hear at a folk club"? We all know that the way the word 'folk' is used in practice has nothing to do with the 1954 definition. We know that's the reality; the question is what you think about that reality.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 11:16 AM

"Folk is as it is, and I don't think a half dozen or so whining traddys is going to change that."
I count something like 500 books on my shelf with my version of 'folk' as the subject - not bad for half a dozen whining traddys, don't you think?
How many do you have adhering to your non-version of the term?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 11:28 AM

Jim - I'm sure you are aware that there are at least 500 books that adhere to a broader definition of folk as well.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 11:40 AM

Ron - do you really think so? I'm sure there are at least 500 folk clubs that don't bother defining 'folk', but books?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 12:12 PM

I can point to several books on my shelf that relate the history of the folk revival and incorporate a broader definition than the 1954 interpretation. Of course, the 1954 definition is open to interpretation as well, it is just that some folks have a more finite set of standards. There is a danger when music is collected of losing the setting and standards that made it "folk" in the first place. Music is not meant to be put on a shelf and looked at.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 01:07 PM

"Music is not meant to be put on a shelf and looked at."
No, as a veteran club organiser and singer of some thirty years standing (and sitting), I totally agree; but with live folk music, just like books, it is nice to know where to look for it when you want it.
"I'm sure you are aware that there are at least 500 books that adhere to a broader definition of folk as well."
Have to admit I didn't know there were that many, but I can't think of one that sets down an alernative definition in black-and-white.
Was really responding to SS's half-a-dozen whining traddies snide.
One of my problems with all this is the insults to injury bit.
At the height of my folk-clubbing, while I always had one or two permanent clubs to go to, I always made a point of visiting as many others as possible, sometimes four or five times a week.
Gradually these prove so unsatisfactory that they dwindled down to my two regulars.
Not only was I listening to less and less 'folk proper' but quite often the standards were appalling in the terms of what the performers were doing.
We got pop wannabes who would have been booed off the stage of the back room of my local, music hall performers who couldn't manage a comic song if it would save them from imminent execution, and would-be opera singers who would make Florence Foster Jenkins sound like Maria Callas.
The folk scene was becoming a refuge for rejects who weren't good enough to make their way in their own chsoen forms - a cultural dustbin.
Clips I have been guided to on this forum convince me that nothing much has changed in this respect.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 01:23 PM

not bad for half a dozen whining traddys, don't you think?

Not bad at all - I'm sure there's maybe half that number passed through my hands too but what chances are of actual folk getting published or being bothered to adopt such an approach? Not very likely at all really.

We know that's the reality; the question is what you think about that reality.

Right now, sitting here listening to the newly remastered edition of Jordi Savall & Le Concert des Nations' 1993 recording of Handel's Water Music I really don't care that much to be honest. Music is so much bigger than what I think and I'm increasingly seeing it as a petty concern. The reality is so much greater than any ideal; as I said over on the other thread:

I like Folk as Flotsam* because, although a traddy, I like people - everyday people, coming to a folk club after a hard day's work in the fields (or on the cabs, the Job Centre, the hospital, the school, the building site, the ministry, or computer terminal) to sink a few pints and sing whatever they want to sing without someone telling them it isn't folk. This is where the Horse definition wins out, because it comes from the folks themselves, not the academics telling us how it ought to be, but obviously isn't.

Although a Traddy, I'm with the folks on this one; the academics can go fuck themselves. And that's not by way of 'anti-analytical primitivism' - just that the 1954 definition only works if you want it work, otherwise it's very much The Horseshit Definition and means nothing at all without being complicit in the sort of academic fantasising that gave rise to such nonsense in the first place.

Is Folk Music of the Folks or the Academics anyway? I know which I prefer.

* Folk is rather like Flotsam - just so many otherwise disparate diverse artefacts floating around in a particular context regardless of origin or eventual destination. It's all Flotsam.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 02:25 PM

Jim - read any of Ron Cohen's books such as "Rainbow Quest". You can also check Robert Cantwell's "When We Were Good", Dick Weissman's "Which Side Are You On", or Scott Alarik's writing. All recognize the influence of singer-songwriters through the ages.

At the same time, I do not think that any of them, nor would I, disagree with your definition of the traditional side of folk music.   I am not disagreeing with your desires for folk clubs. You should be entitled to program any style you like. The rest of the world should have the same opportunity and the contemporary definition of folk music has just as much right to claim title to the words.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 02:30 PM

"I like Folk as Flotsam* because, although a traddy, I like people - everyday people, coming to a folk club after a hard day's work in the fields (or on the cabs, the Job Centre, the hospital, the school, the building site, the ministry, or computer terminal) to sink a few pints and sing whatever they want to sing without someone telling them it isn't folk."

I don't think anyone would object to people getting together to sing whatever they like. What people are questioning is whether what you describe should be described as a folk club.

If I go to a jazz club, I expect to hear jazz. If I go to a Mozart concert, I expect to hear Mozart. Is it unreasonable to expect to hear folk music at a folk club?

What you are describing may be a very enjoyable way to spend an evening, but calling it a folk club is misleading.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 02:39 PM

"but what chances are of actual folk getting published or being bothered to adopt such an approach? Not very likely at all really."
Sorry - you've lost me; can you explain?
Stanley Robertson, Scots Traveller - has published at least four books, Duncan Williamson, Scots Traveller, at least half a dozen, we've (retired electrician and retired office worker) have just recieved an open-ended offer to publish our Travellers collection, MacColl and Seeger published interviews of The Stewarts, excellent book on Jeannie Robertson - or are we talking about your undefined 'real' folk? not sure.
Still don't know if a string orchestra performing at one of your 'designated folk venues' would miraculously transform into a folk ensemble.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 03:03 PM

Don't be so snotty Don, I am trying to have a reasonable discussion with you and explain why your analogy does not work."

"Snotty?"

Ron, I'm not going to get caught it in a petty, nit-picking argument with you about whether my analogy works or not. Any analogy is only a general comparison for purposes of illustration, and if someone has a mind to, he can start finding fault with it and lose the thread of the discussion.

I have stated my case, and my reason for it, quite clearly above, in my post of 21 Mar 09 - 06:09 p.m.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, I have read both of the books you mentioned above.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 03:08 PM

Realfolk? Is that like Realale? Just asking


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM

Descriptive versus prescriptive definitions Different approaches. One is probably better to understand the "true nature" of a thing, as it were, for analysis and such. The other may be better for convenience, conversation, etc.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 04:12 PM

As I said higher up, the only thing that keeps me coming back to these discussions is that there is no descriptive definition.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 06:18 PM

What's wrong with calling it contemporary acoustic music? What's wrong with calling it singer/songwriter music? What's wrong with just calling it music, for those who are pissed off by definitions?

Folk music that has come into being by way of the folk process is a different genre of music than composed music. Why are so many people so intent on calling both genres by the same name? I'm a big fan of inclusiveness and personal taste in music making, but not in definition making.

What would you all suggest that I call the music I play? "Folk" is meaningless; someone might think I'm going to do an acoustic Neil Young set. I've been told that "traditional" should also include singer/songwriters, since there is a "tradition" of songwriting. Besides, so many people hear the word "traditional" and think "boring".

All you folks that are saying definitions are stupid: fine! Stop using them. Stop calling modern composed music folk music, if you don't think definitions are important. Or is it just that you like the term folk music, and want it to mean whatever kind of music you like to listen to?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Betsy
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 07:26 PM

In 1954, a la definition, (in the UK at least) the average Joe (or Joanne) would never dreamed of owning a guitar - let alone playing it and singing in front of people. It wasn't a part of life. Ordinary people writing songs about ordinary life ? it simple wasn't thought about - it was an impossible concept.
Even popular music treated the human voice as an also ran - compared to Instrumental music.
Ordinary people in 1954 didn't even have a record player ,a telephone ,certainly no Tele - they had a piano but any music was a welcome relief after a MASSIVE World War which had finished 9 years previously. They were difficult times - I was 7 years old. The 1954 definition was irrelevant to people in 1954 apart from Academics - Jeez - my Mum and Dad they were trying to keep their bodies and souls together and those nearest to them.
We have moved on, and so have the "Class" (sic) of people who pontificated about such things and kept us mere mortals in their rightful place by dictating to the them how they should understand such music.
The 1954 definition may have been accurate in 1954 and fair play to them for their academic study, but , they were not to know, how ,the world of the common man's music would change.
Change it has, and the definition of our music needs to change with it, and, I suppose we need start calling it something like "Acoustic Roots" (music) because an awful lot of people get turned off immediately by the term "Folk Music".
Oh yeh - I'm going to an Acoustic Roots night - fancy it?
I'm going to a Folk music night - fancy it ?- forget it
I can accept any different variations of my suggestion, but what I have written , rolls in a load of other threads e.g. Clubs dying etc .
We need to modernise - to give the younger people ,and the middle aged Joe /Joannes who are looking for live music , a social evening, a label that isn't going to instantly frighten them away.
The 1954 definition in 2009 - chokes me - give it a break.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 07:42 PM

It's all about the music in the end


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 07:44 PM

"All you folks that are saying definitions are stupid: fine! Stop using them. Stop calling modern composed music folk music, if you don't think definitions are important. Or is it just that you like the term folk music, and want it to mean whatever kind of music you like to listen to? "

Nope.

The reason we clump certain types of singer-songwriter and certain contemporary acoustic music into the term "folk music" is simply because IT IS FOLK MUSIC.   You have to deal with it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 08:09 PM

This is all completely impossible to resolve of course, maybe Miss Karpeles was winding us all up. Anyway, it hasn't stopped "folk" arguing the toss in thousands of threads in web forums for years, and before that magazines, books, chapbooks, pamphlets, and probably little wooden notepads on Hadrian's Wall in the 2nd century AD. See traditional legionary folk song collected by R Sutcliff in "The Eagle of the Ninth" (I jest).

Is Flossie Malavialle supposed to sing Edith Piaf and Jacques Brel in a folk club? Was Bob Copper right to like the blues? Why did Jim Copper write old songs AND music hall songs in his song book (admittedly separated)? Is "You'll Never Walk Alone" a folk song if it's sung by the Kop at Anfield? These are all of course rhetorical questions but hide a point. ALL the music which people have picked up over the millennia goes into their very own melting pot which may then be added to other people's pots via memory, writing songs down, recording them on an Edison cylinder, or onto a hard disk in a home studio. Some of it will become Folk Music. Nothing WE say will stop it.

Christ, I'm sounding like Karl Dallas or Bob Pegg. It's nearly midnight GMT, I'm going to bed - I'll probably dream of the Folk Police riding me down now!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Nick
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 09:18 PM

Howard - >>If I go to a jazz club, I expect to hear jazz. If I go to a Mozart concert, I expect to hear Mozart. Is it unreasonable to expect to hear folk music at a folk club?

If you go to to a jazz club you would expect to hear some kind of jazz. But if you are a big Kenny Ball fan you might find that Pharaoh Sanders or Ornette Coleman are not your cup of tea. You would probably ask the secondary question - what sort of jazz? Jazz has evolved and fragmented over the last century.

'Classical music' is a big diverse beast as well. Mozart wrote a lot of things and they don't all sound the same. A lot of people who 'like Beethoven' find the late string quartets are not to their liking as Beethoven evolved over his life as well.

Apparently folk music hasn't or can't. Or isn't allowed to or something. It just is that specific thing and doesn't belong to anything else and anything that came after it and refers back to it isn't it.

Which makes it unique. And stuck. And non evolving. And old. And probably dying. Always exist somewhere and no doubt be revived every now and again.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Nick
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 09:53 PM

Jim - here's a tip. If you "drive across the county to visit a 'folk club' I've just read about" etc and keep getting disappointed take advantage of two wonderful inventions. First one is the telephone. Pick it up and ask. Second one is the internet - email and ask. Or listen at a myspace or similar thing that people normally have. Use brain before getting in the car.

There was a thread recently where someone was coming to North Yorkshire and asking about singarounds, folk clubs etc so I sent him the usual link I send people (here) which gives him a simple representation of what an evening with us is about. Not a mention of folk anywhere but he - as a shanty singer, I believe - felt it was the right sort of place to come. And if someone sings a Nirvana song such is life. Personally I believe that we contribute to the continuation of a long tradition of people sharing songs and music together and will do for the foreseeable future. Couldn't give a kipper's wizzer what it's called but we set the rough parameters of what is accepted by the sorts of things that are played each week.

It still baffles me how you purists let such a popular art form practically disappear (by your continuing own admission) and seem totally unable or unwilling to resuscitate it. Your argument is always that there is a huge pent up demand waiting for folk in its proper pure form to be presented. I don't believe that is true. I believe most people would find Walter Pardon, who you always cite as the epitome of folk singing, as a rather sweet old gentleman with a curious voice singing songs in an archaic way which had little relevance to their everyday existence. Sure he sings in tune. And he's authentic and has the force of history etc but an evening of that is a very specialist taste. I have tried (I listened to 15 tracks this afternoon on Napster - because he is probably more accessible to the mass of people now than at any point in history) but find my attention wanders and I find it rather tedious and samey after a few songs. My failing perhaps or perhaps I am used to something else.

And the argument that the redefinition of the word folk is what killed its popularity I find bizarre in the extreme.

If you are ever in North Yorkshire though you'd be enormously welcome and you'd definitely hear ballads and shanties on any evening you came. You could sit in the carpark or perhaps wear earplugs when the more diverse items came on! As I said on another thread I find a wide range of music round this part of the world (I got invited to a Front Room folk club today) and it just seems to be growing. Within that I hear lots of different sorts of music from folk (in your sense) to more modern stuff and constantly find my musical boundaries being expanded and constantly find great songs being sung. Whether they are old or new or folk or not matters little to me - if they communicate (politically - emotionally - narratively etc) and/or move me that's good enough for me.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 09:55 PM

So if you go to a folk club and expect to hear folk music - exactly what kind of folk music are you expecting to hear? Blues? Appalachian? Native American? There are so many styles, how would you expect to know what you are getting? Going back to Don's Supermarket, would you just order candy and expect to get something you like?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 04:14 AM

Ron (shouting removed) - The reason we clump certain types of singer-songwriter and certain contemporary acoustic music into the term "folk music" is simply because it is folk music.

Yes, but what's your reason for saying that it's folk music? To put it another way, what's your answer when someone says it isn't?

There are so many styles, how would you expect to know what you are getting?

That's a very good argument for restricting the folk label. Yes, there's a huge variety of traditional music out there; all the more reason to give traditional music room to breathe.

Nick:

Your argument is always that there is a huge pent up demand waiting for folk in its proper pure form to be presented. I don't believe that is true.

I think there's substantial demand for contemporary acoustic music and for traditional music. Some people started a weekly FC here in Chorlton six years ago; these days it's almost entirely singer-songwriter (the Myspace page doesn't even mention traditional music), and most nights it's packed out. A year and a bit ago, a monthly singaround started up (on a "mostly but not entirely traditional" basis); it's just gone fortnightly, and it's packing them in too.

When I started going to the singaround I'd been going to the FC for five years on a pretty regular basis (sometimes weekly). In all that time I'd never heard Ranzo or Jones's Ale or Thousands or more. When I heard that stuff I liked it, but I didn't get to hear much of it at the local folk club. That just seems a bit odd to me.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 04:49 AM

Pip Radish

That's a very good argument for restricting the folk label.

And how are you going to do that? Strangle offenders with their banjo strings?

You can't legislate language.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 04:54 AM

Sorry Bryan and others who object to the length of my postings; I think this is going to be a long one.
Perhaps it's time to put this discussion into its actual context and get it out of the greenhouse atmosphere of the folk scene.
The 1954 definition arose directly, not out of armchair musings of the 'acaedmics' SS and his cronies pour so much of their contempt on, but directly from the 'folkface'.
Sharp, the main architect of the definition drew his information, not from books, god knows, there were little of those on the subject when he was reaching his 'Conclusions', but from the rural poor of the south of England and from the mountain people of the Southern Appalachians in the US. Hammond and Gardiner got theirs from similar sources, from rural labourers,and particularly from the workhouses of Hampshire and Dorset, Vaughan Williams, again from the farm labourers and from the fishing people of East Anglia. Grainger's magnificent collection came mainly from farmworkers on the east coast in Lincolnshire. The work of Gavin Greig and John Ord was carried out in the farms and in particular, in the bothies of the north east of Scotland. All the rest of the originators and supporters of the definition, without exception, were taking their inspiration and information from similar sources.
Later on the validity of the definition was supported by the work of Hamish Henderson among the Travelling people of Aberdeenshire and other working people of Scotland. Hugh Shields was working with the farm labourers and fishermen of North Donegal. The BBC collectors, Kennedy, Ennis, Bob Copper, Sean O'Boyle and others were all getting their information and their material from miners, mill-workers, fishermen, farm labourers, Travellers...... the working people of Britain and Ireland. It is these people - 'the folk' - who put the folk in folk, that's what the term refers to.
MacColl, Seeger and Parker took their folk songs and the inspiriation for their self-penned songs directly from fishermen like Sam Larner and Ronnie Balls, from Ben Bright, a seaman who worked under sail, road navvies like Jack Hamilton, and from English and Scots Travellers, from miners such as the Elliot family and from manual workers like George Dunne, Beckett Whitehead and Mark Anderson.   
Up to date, one of the most prolific collectors ever, Tom Munnelly (an ex factory worker), with 22,000 songs to his credit, was getting his material and his information from identical sources in the Republic of Ireland.
Our (electrician and office worker) own information came mainly from Travellers, from small farmers and rural labourers in the west of Ireland and from manual workers and fishermen in East Anglia.
It is this work and these sources that gave rise to and validated (and continues to validate as far as I'm concerned) the 1954 definition. Academics my arse!!!
And you would substitute it with what - the arbitrary whims of a tiny handful organisers and revival singers who, in most cases, have never ventured outside the protective bubbles of a folk club for their songs and music. It is these, as far as I can see, who are the real armchair academics.
No Betsy - you give it a break!
For me, the terms 'folk' and 'traditional' are joined at the hip, the former referring to the people who made and transmitted the songs, the latter to the filtering process that shaped them and knocked the sharp edges off.
As far as I'm concerned, our folk process is now finished. The people who produced the songs, stories and music have now become passive recipients rather than participants and creators, largely thanks to the intrusive influence of television. We saw it happen virtually overnight when the Travellers went out and bought portable television sets.
In my direct experience as a life-long manual worker, SS's "people coming in after a hard day's work in the fields or on the cabs, the Job Centre, the hospital, the school, the building site, the ministry, or computer terminal" don't make music, songs or stories any more; we have it made for us and the only say we have in the matter lies in the on-off switch and the television hand control.
The folk song revival once drew its inspiration and its material from the efforts of the people I've described above and in doing so, I believe they took on the responsibility for the survival of, or, at the very least, the accurate documentation of that material and all the information that goes with it.
Of course there's nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from the material to create new songs - it would be as irrelevant to modern life as 'The Sealed Knot' or historic 'war game' recreation if this didn't happen - an exercise in romantic nostalgia. But let's not mix up the two; we're observers, beneficiaries and documentors of a folk tradition, not a part of the process.
If anybody can come up with a new formula which fully combines the process and the people I have described above with the creations of the 'singer, songwriters', by all means let's consider it, but until somebody does, the old definition stands.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 05:47 AM

If anybody can come up with a new formula which fully combines the process and the people I have described above with the creations of the 'singer, songwriters', by all means let's consider it, but until somebody does, the old definition stands.

All very worthy, Jim, but there's still nothing in the 1954 definition that can't be applied to any other music. Like Christianity, it only stands because of unquestioning belief of the faithful in a remote theology. Thus, it creates that theology to account for a music that can only understand itself in terms of category, political agenda, and fantasy of folk-character. In short, the 1954 Definition is the opiate of the Folk Intelligentsia and can only account for a musical tradition which is, as far as it ever existed at all, (and in your own words, Jim) DEAD. Back in 1980 I was renting a house from some taxidermists who'd left a stuffed bittern hanging on the wall; folk process as taxidermy perhaps? The taxidermy of the extinct simply because the 1954 definition does not allow for its transformation and continuance in any form other than that which isn't on the agenda.

Ah degrading vile was the way ye died, o my bittern beauteous of glowing sheen
Was at dawn of day that your pipe ye'd play as content ye lay on your hillock green
O my great fatigue and my sorrow sore that your tail is higher than heart or head
And the tipplers say as they pass your way: had he drunk his fill he would not be dead


Still, at least you've got your books, Jim - cut & dried, dead on the page, and the more I think about it, the more it leaves me cold; cold as the fecking grave.

Folk is dead. Long live Folk.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Will Fly, on the hoof
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 05:55 AM

As far as I'm concerned, our folk process is now finished...Of course there's nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from the material to create new songs - it would be as irrelevant to modern life as 'The Sealed Knot' or historic 'war game' recreation if this didn't happen - an exercise in romantic nostalgia. But let's not mix up the two; we're observers, beneficiaries and documentors of a folk tradition, not a part of the process.

I'm not clear what your message is here, Jim. The folk process is "finished", but we can still draw inspiration from the material to create new songs - as MacColl did, presumably?If those songs are then transmitted, sung differently, adapted perhaps, changed over time, then the "process" continues. Difficult, perhaps, in an age where everything is documented, recorded, filmed and set in stone.

If the folk process is finished and the body of songs that we have is complete, unchangeable, and signed, sealed and delivered - then why sing them at all? We don't have the background or the personal experience or authority to deliver them with honesty and conviction, presumably? So why don't we accept that modern songwriters who bring their work to clubs and singarounds are offering something modern, and just get on with it?

I personally like a wide variety of music - including much from the tradition as you describe it, and lots besides. You give the impression that, as far as you're concerned, the book has been written, the subject is closed - and that's that, folks. So what are you telling us to do? We're not part of the "process" any more - television and the media has seen to that - and we don't have the background or the involvement, being office workers and not horny-handed sons of the soil, to deliver the stuff honestly. I get the impression - and correct me if I'm wrong - that nothing we can do, as performers will now ever be right.

I was singing "High Germany" last Saturday night - in my own way and as best as I could. What have I to do with the tradition that passed that song on? What have I to do with the circumstances in which it was transmitted? Perhaps I should stop singing it - it's pointless, isn't it? - and just concentrate on Fats Waller stuff instead. I know where that came from...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 06:04 AM

Nick is correct,if I rang a club and saw the name Andy Caven,I know I would be getting Buddy Holly songs,and veery little trad material,if I saw the name Dick Miles,Iwould be getting thishttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K4-2laAOkI&feature=channel_page ,and no Buddy Holly.
most folk clubs,have a contact,if they dont have an e mail.
so what is the problem,if it someone you know nothing about contact the organiser.
the great thing about folk clubs is that they encourage people to make their own music,instead of being passive,mind you the computer allows that too.
long live folk clubs,and long live you tube,the two can work together,you tube is a great way of improving technique and also learning new songs.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 06:25 AM

All very well, Jim, but it doesn't get away from the fact that a lot of people use the term "folk music" in ways that do not fit the 1954 definition, probably because they have never heard of it. It is not easily accessible. A search on Google produces this - Definition of Folk Music. You have to pay $12 to find out the rules you must obey.

To abandon the music and go off in a fit of pique over a couple of words is ridiculous and harms the very music you claim to champion.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 06:33 AM

Bryan
Why should a definition be a rule - and why load discussions like this with such loaded terminology - speaking of which:
"To abandon the music and go off in a fit of pique"
Why the **** do you insist on doing this; it's nasty and it's counterproductive.
I set out what I believe to be a reasonalble case for my opinions - I did not "go off in a fit of pique". While I may have lost my rag at other times, I certainly did not do so here.
More later.
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 06:48 AM

PS Bryan
To suggest that the only access to 'A Definition of Folk Music' is via a €12 donation is being economical with the truth in the extreme.
A copy of the article is available to any EFDSS member - and, knowing the excellent librarian at the VWML as I do, to non-members also on request, as I am sure you are fully aware.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:14 AM

Jim Carroll

Bryan
Why should a definition be a rule - and why load discussions like this with such loaded terminology


A bit of mild hyperbole. You do give the impression that you think that the 1954 definition is, rather than a useful tool, something which everyone is obliged to follow.

"To abandon the music and go off in a fit of pique"
Why the **** do you insist on doing this; it's nasty and it's counterproductive.


Stop being so virtuous. You're pretty good at handing out yourself. I was talking about the general thrust of your posts not just this one. One that I found particularly disturbing was this thread.cfm?threadid=119179#2584434. For the record, I last heard a Beatles song in a folk club about 15 years ago. I last heard a song from the singing of Walter Pardon 2 days ago.

You have, as usual, failed to address my major point that a lot of people use the term "folk music" in a way that does not fit the 1954 definition and there is nothing you can do about it. Stop fretting over two small words and concentrate on promoting the music you claim to love. Did the people who trusted you with their heritage want you to "leave it on the shelf"?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:20 AM

I have a suspicion that those who claim the folk process to be dead want it so. They've got their little collections in their little museums and heaven forbid if any new stuff comes along to 'contaminate' or 'dilute' the gene pool.

That's why they like the 1954 definition - it preserves in stone a process which, in today's electronic age, is difficult to replicate.

But fear not, folks, other processes will spring up to replace those which have outlived their usefulness. The would-be King Canutes will be left high and dry. Ignore them.

Adapt. Change. But above all - SING!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:25 AM

That's a very good argument for restricting the folk label.

Folk can only be an observable phenomenon defined by what it is, rather than what people thought it might have once been back in 1954 (and even then were several light-years wide of the mark). In my lifetime Folk has been everything from the Traditional Northumbrian Pipe Music of Billy Pigg to the Free-Form South African Jazz of Johnny Mbizo Dyani who frequently spoke of his music as being Folk. I think of everything I do as being Folk - be it This or This. No good can ever come out restricting anything, on the contrary, the wider our appreciations of Folk the better it will be.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:33 AM

"leave it on the shelf"?"
Have you knot read my postings on the availability of our collection or do you deliberately choose to ignore tham
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:46 AM

Like it or lump it, the overwhelming majority of people out there using the English language, who have even the slightest musical awareness, wouldn't have a clue what the 1954 definition is all about.

I found traditional song, completely *independently* of 'folk music'.
I was never a 'folk music' fan, if I thought 'folk' - just like everyone else (bar a tiny minority of specialists) - I thought 'Dylan' or 'Steeleye Span'. I didn't like folk music, so I never bothered with it, and as a consequence Trad Song completely passed under my radar for terribly long time.

The term has been utterly lost to whatever it initially meant, and as Leadfingers put it, has become an 'Umbrella Term' for a very broad and eclectic musical genre.

If you want to communicate to the real folk in the world, you need to speak their language, otherwise they will neither know nor care to know what you're attempting to say. And especially if you have to refer them to some academic definition for disambiguation of a term, which is completely inconsistant with the everyday language that they use and do understand.

In fact I'd prefer to see 'Traditional Song' move out from underneath this weight of miscellany, and stand on it's own as 'Traditional Song' because, if my (and that of some of my peers) own experience is anything to go by, 'Traditional Song' is vastly overshadowed by the volume of material out there proliferating beneath the folk music umbrella.

Traditional song, has become completely lost beneath such an expansive term. No-one in the real world has ever heard of the 1954 definition, but they *do* understand 'Traditional [insert culture and art or craft as applicable]' as a term that is used in a variety of contexts in a fashion that is overall pretty consistant and stable, and not requiring any form of disambiguation.

Trying to retrieve the term 'folk song' is IMO doomed to failure, and a complete waste of energy which could be far better spent, promoting broader awareness of 'Traditional Song.' Fair enough if you are speaking to those who share your sympathies and specialist understanding, but IMO it's alienating, confusing, tiresome, and can in no way further the cause of increasing greater public interest in and knowledge of Trad Song.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:48 AM

Yes Jim but nobody is better qualified to bring those collections to a wider audience than you, the person who collected them. Unfortunately, you can't see why you should bother because some people use the term "folk music" in a way that doesn't fit the 1954 definition.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 08:03 AM

If those songs are then transmitted, sung differently, adapted perhaps, changed over time, then the "process" continues. Difficult, perhaps, in an age where everything is documented, recorded, filmed and set in stone.

More or less impossible, I think. I do Mr Tambourine Man from time to time; it's Dylan's words and tune (mostly) but not his style, not least because I do it without a guitar. But there are never going to be multiple Tambourine Mans (Men?) - except to the extent that the Byrds' version is an established variant - because anyone hearing the song performed can go straight back to the source. The folk process has been killed off by recorded and broadcast music, just like steam locomotives were killed off by diesel. Stuff happens.

If the folk process is finished and the body of songs that we have is complete, unchangeable, and signed, sealed and delivered - then why sing them at all?

Speaking for myself and not for Jim, because they're bloody good songs, and they're good in ways that most contemporary songs aren't. And enough people still* know them to make them fun to sing in company.

*This long after the Revival.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 08:10 AM

No Bryan, I no longer know that there is a large enough interest in the material we have recorded to warrant the time necessary in getting it into shape.
I have been aware of this since the days when Pat was organising bookings for Walter Pardon and constantly being told by club orgaisers "Oh, we don't book singers like that; we only cater for the modern stuff". Arguments like this only serve to reinforce those impressions.
I am now past my mid-sixties and have to decide the best use I can make of my remaining years. I have no hestitation in taking our Irish material to an audience I know to be able to make good use of it. Our English material is a totally different matter.
Those few who are interested in this are, and have been for over 20 years, perfectly free to access this in the various public archives it is deposited in.
It has nothing whatever to do with the '1954 definition' as you, once again so misleadingly - well - mislead.
"the overwhelming majority of people out there using the English language"
No Rosie, the majority of the people out there don't give a toss one way or another - we and folk don't impinge on their lives in any way.
The use and misuse of the language is confined to the folk world.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 08:58 AM

no no ,unfair to King Cnut,King Cnut was trying to show his courtiers,that he was not infallible.
you are acnutist


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 09:08 AM

'Traditional Song' is vastly overshadowed by the volume of material out there proliferating beneath the folk music umbrella

True, but this too shall pass. 'Folk' as a style - usually meaning 'sounding a bit like Pentangle' - was ridiculously unfashionable 10 years ago, and it'll probably be ridiculously unfashionable again in 10 years' time. But traditional music was there, is there and will still be there. If more people believed that 'folk' ought to have something to do with traditional material, there'd be more chance that some of the thousands of people currently going through a 'folk' phase will get some exposure to traditional music along the way.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 09:18 AM

In fact I'd prefer to see 'Traditional Song' move out from underneath this weight of miscellany, and stand on it's own as 'Traditional Song' because, if my (and that of some of my peers) own experience is anything to go by, 'Traditional Song' is vastly overshadowed by the volume of material out there proliferating beneath the folk music umbrella.

My feelings entirely, at least in theory because at the end of our street there stands a public house by the Fleetwood-Larne ferry terminal where on a Thursday night meets The Fleetwood Folk Club which plays host to an assorted gathering of diverse human personalities and folk-characters all of whom have their own take on such matters and somehow manage to create a unity of experience and whole-hearted jubilation however so disparate the individual contributions. In a phrase - the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and I'm sure that could be said for any UK club or festival - and long may that be the case.

*

Here on the Fylde there is a strong tradition of fine songwriting - Alan Bell needs no instruction, and neither should Ron Baxter, whose instinctive genius is such that I regard him as a medium through which the tradition flows. At this years Fylde Festival, for example, you might hear our new show Demdyke - a celebration of Fylde Folklore, Witchcraft and suchlike Wierdness in which all of the songs have been written by Ron in on a miraculous roll of creativity that leaves me quite beathless, especially given the quality of the material that flows from his pen. Genius for sure; and Folk most certainly, and never less than totally inspiring.

Their Jesus died, nailed to a tree
Why in His temple should I be?
Yet there my image you will see
Carved in wood or stone.

Though He arose, as doth the Spring,
New life unto this world to bring
He's not me, and I'm not Him
For Him I do not know.

For I dwell with the greenwood trees
And when they rustle in the breeze
Tis then that folk think they see me,
And some, perhaps, they do.

Through Summer sun, through Winter cold
I'm there with oak, and ash, and thorn.
I'll never die, 'cause I've never been born,
Forever I've been here.

Yet in May some still are found
As the pipe and tabor sounds
Bedecked in leaves they dance around
Doing homage unto me.

But of their homage I've no need
Of their worship I'll take no heed
Let them believe what they believe,
It matters not to me.

For I am... just what I am
Though that you'll never understand
Jack in the Green, or the Green Man
You may call me what you will.


I've been singing this to tune of Band of Shearers, with a stronger emphasis on the even & final verses. If anyone can think of a better melody, don't hesitate to chip in!

*

It is the creativity engendered by Traditional Music that I find the most captivating. I was honoured to a part of John Barleycorn Reborn and similar projects all of which are rooted in an appreciation of Traditional Song and yet take a very different view of this thing we call Folk. But I've heard Traditional Song set in all sorts of contexts - classical, jazz, free-jazz, rock, experimental and even folk - and so it endures very much as Traditional Song.

The music remains potent, and very much alive; it continues to inspire and invigorate and suggest new possibilities. I for one, on the available evidence, can no longer think of it as being Dead. The 1954 definition is engraved on the tombstone of an empty grave for the Tradition has been Reborn afresh.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,a passing academic
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM

A search on Google produces this - Definition of Folk Music. You have to pay $12 to find out the rules you must obey.

Not if you've got access - and not if the text has been liberated by a passing academic.

DEFINITION OF FOLK MUSIC by MAUD KARPELES (London)

This communication is mainly a recapitulation of opinions that have previously been expressed and is offered as a basis for discussion.

At the Annual Conference of the International Folk Music Council held in London two years ago we attempted to define folk music, but were unable to devise a definition which completely satisfied all the members. The provisional definition adopted by the Council was: "Folk music is music that has been submitted to the process of oral transmission. It is the product of evolution and is dependent on the circumstances of continuity, variation and selection."

This definition implies that folk music is the product of an unwritten tradition and that the elements that have shaped, or are shaping, the tradition are: (1) continuity, which links the present with the past; (2) variation, which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (3) selection by the community which determines the form in which folk music survives.

The definition rightly leaves out of account the origin of folk music. The term can therefore be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by art music; and it can also be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten, living tradition of a community. But the term does not cover a song, dance or tune that has been taken over ready-made and remains unchanged. It is the fashioning and re-fashioning of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.

When a tune passes into oral tradition, it becomes subject to the forces of evolution and conforms in the following way to the demands of continuity, variation and selection. Firstly, the tune is to some extent translated into the accepted idiom, so that the continuity of tradition is maintained; secondly, it ceases to be static and stereotyped, but becomes multiform through the individual variations made by its performers; and thirdly, the forms in which the tune ultimately survives are determined by the community: for the variations which meet with approval persist, and the others die out. In this sense, a folk song, even when it has an individual origin, may be said to be of communal authorship.

The time factor must play a part in evolution. A song that is learned orally, say from the radio, does not immediately and automatically become a folk song, no matter how great is its popularity. Tipperary [i.e. It's a Long Way To...], one of the most popular songs in the first World War, never became a folk song because it was never re-created by the folk.

How long does it take for a composed song to become a folk song? That is a question that is often asked and one to which it is impossible to give an answer. In communities in which there is a strong folk music tradition a composed song which hits the popular imagination will very quickly be absorbed into the tradition, but where the existing tradition is declining the process of transformation will take longer, if indeed it happens at all.

The weakness of the definition adopted by the Council is that it leaves out the time element. The definition originally placed before the Council was: "Music that has been submitted throughout many generations to the moulding process of oral transmission." But the words "throughout many generations" were omitted, because it was felt by some that the time factor does not operate to the same extent in a new country as it does in one with an older civilisation. The objection may have arisen owing to an erroneous identification of the term folk music with autochthonous music. Many of the songs that are traditionally sung on the American Continent are of European origin, but their transportation from Europe to America does not invalidate their claim to be considered folk songs.

In any country in which art music and folk music exist side by side there is bound to be inter-action between the two types of music and there will always be a certain number of songs that are on the border-line; but this should not prevent us from recognising that the two types are distinctive. It must, however, be borne in mind that in the transition from folk music to art music or vice versa there must always be a re-creation. In the same way that folk music may constitute the raw material of art music, so may art music constitute the raw material of folk music.
[ends]


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 09:38 AM

Pip (Working) Radish - my comments were made ironically and I agree with you entirely. We song the songs because they're bloody good songs - not because they fit the 1954 definition or because we have some mystical metaphysical connection with them...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:00 AM

"Yes, but what's your reason for saying that it's folk music? To put it another way, what's your answer when someone says it isn't?"

I answer that they are wrong. They are not considering the fact that folk music is a living tradition. Cecil Sharp took a snapshot of a community and their traditions at a certain point in time. Whatever rudimentary methods were used for transmission of the song was reflected in the source.

During the last 100 years, our sense of "community" has changed. You can sit and cry in your beer about the loss of tradition, or you can realize that tradition evolves with these changes.

The singer-songwriters are creating songs for a specific community. It is not "pop" music as it does not incorporate the qualities that would insure commercial acceptance to a wide audience. The songs are created for the same need that the songs that we consider "traditional" were created.   I was interviewing Eric Andersen and he explained it very clearly. They started writing songs because they could not find traditional songs that spoke directly to the issues and lifestyle that they were leading. They needed songs that would serve their own community.

The folk community spawned Woody Guthrie, Lead Belly, Phil Ochs, Bob Dylan and many others - and it continues to do so with emerging writers like Danny Schmidt, Joe Jencks, Lindsay Mac, Antje Duvekot and others.

Trust me - I am not knocking the study and enjoyment of traditional music. It is extremely important to preserve and learn from these songs and traditions. I feel that is also important to recognize that these traditions evolve.   There is a strong community, at least in this country, that accepts certain contemporary singer-songwriters under the "folk" umbrella.   They do not get confused about what they are listening to.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:23 AM

Cecil Sharp took a snapshot of a community and their traditions at a certain point in time. Whatever rudimentary methods were used for transmission of the song was reflected in the source. During the last 100 years, our sense of "community" has changed. You can sit and cry in your beer about the loss of tradition, or you can realize that tradition evolves with these changes.

Ron, your points would be a lot more persuasive without the sneering at people who disagree with you. We're not idle, maudlin, self-pitying drunks on this side of the argument - just rational adults who hold different views from you.

Apart from that, I'm slightly stunned by the second sentence I quote here - the "rudimentary methods used for transmission of the song" are precisely what makes traditional music different from composed music (which hasn't entered a tradition). The replacement of those methods by broadcast and recorded music stopped the folk process happening - those traditions aren't evolving, because there's nowhere for them to do so.

The singer-songwriters are creating songs for a specific community.

We could argue about the meaning of 'community', but I'm more interested in the bit about creating songs. Do you believe that a song that's just been written can be a folk song?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:34 AM

"your points would be a lot more persuasive without the sneering at people who disagree with you. We're not idle, maudlin, self-pitying drunks on this side of the argument - just rational adults who hold different views from you."

No, but you are a bit over-sensitive!!!    Jeesh - you consider "crying in your beer" to be sneering? Have you read any of the posts that you made in this thread? Get a grip!!

Replacement of "oral" traditions by recorded music altered the evolution of traditions - but you are grasping at a theory created many moons ago that also needs to evolve. Traditions DO evolve, and they utilize the means of the time and place. You cannot expect and old theory to remain "gospel". There are some people who can convince you that the world is flat.

Can a song that has just been written be a folk song? It cannot be a traditional song, that is certain. Is it a folk song - it would depend on the song and setting.   Someone can write a song for Britany Spears, that would NOT be a folk song.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:34 AM

Jim Carroll

I no longer know that there is a large enough interest in the material we have recorded to warrant the time necessary in getting it into shape.

What can I do to persuade you that there is?

Those few who are interested in this are, and have been for over 20 years, perfectly free to access this in the various public archives it is deposited in.

Not good enough, Jim. From this article http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/inart558.htm -

"Jim and Pat were both listening to jazz and blues at the time but, when they heard Ewan MacColl singing industrial ballads about British working people's lives and emotions they were completely bowled over."

MacColl didn't just sit back and say "It's there in the museums if anyone wants it." You didn't seek it out until someone showed it to you. Surely you have a duty to pass on the flame.

What are you going to do with your declining years apart from go on internet threads and rant about the deckline of UK folk clubs because someone said that someone once sang The Great Pretender in something that chose to call itself a folk club in defiance of the 1954 definition? You know it's true; you read it on Mudcat.

It has nothing whatever to do with the '1954 definition' as you, once again so misleadingly - well - mislead.

Then what is it to do with? What is stopping you passing on the heritage that has been left in your trust?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:37 AM

"Jim and Pat were both listening to jazz and blues at the time but, when they heard Ewan MacColl singing industrial ballads about British working people's lives and emotions they were completely bowled over."

If someone writes a song in 2009 about the lives of British working people, should we ignore it because it is not a folk song?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:41 AM

Thank you, passing academic. Despite searching diligently for that, I had not been able to find it. The point is that some seem to think that the definition applies to everyone and must not be abused but very few do have access or the convenience of a passing academic.

It makes interesting reading. I think the last paragraph is particularly telling.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: RTim
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:42 AM

To add to the debate - I was listening to the following last night and today. I find it interesting particulaly because it was BEFORE the 1954 definition, etc..
---------------------------------------
East Anglia Sings.
BBC 3rd Programme - broadcast 27th Nov. 1947.
With Collector/Composer E.J.Moeran and BBC colleague Maurice Brown.

Female Announcer:
Mr. Moeran, can you define a Folk Song?

Moeran:
Well, I would say a Folk Song is that which has evolved itself in the course of time, among races or communities. As opposed to that deliberately composed by individuals and written out on staves of music.
But there is no reason why a Folk Song should not spring up today. As a matter of fact, we are playing one tonight about a living event which happened in Barton Broad.
And again, there is that ballad that I noted down in Oxfordshire about Mrs. Dyer, the wretched Baby Farmer and she was hanged at the end of the last century.

Brown:
Yes, and that was the type of song we wished to record, and we wanted them sung in the traditional, almost orchestral style, that the real folk song singer uses.

Moeran:
No accompaniment!

Brown:
No, certainly not. Think of some of those singers we heard elsewhere in Suffolk, some of the old ones knew folk songs, but they had sung them too long with a vamping piano, all the character had been ironed out of them.

Moeran:
Yes, Yes, and there is another thing, the words. We agreed that it was our duty to record the words as they were actually sung. Unfortunately much of the verbal texts of collections published so far have had about the same relation as the genuine article as does Thomas BowdlerÕs version to the authentic Shakespeare.

Brown:
Yes (and laughs..both)

Moeran:
This may or may not have been expedient with regard to collections intended for public purchase; but with regard to texts privately circulated by learned societies, can only be described to a kind of coyness and squeamishness.

Brown:
Well, those were our requirements and between us we were lucky enough to know where to go to find enough material for several broadcasts: Suffolk, and above all, North East Norfolk.

For more on the programme - see:
East Anglia Sings.
BBC 3rd Programme - broadcast 27th Nov. 1947.
With Collector/Composer E.J.Moeran and BBC colleague Maurice Brown.

Female Announcer:
Mr. Moeran, can you define a Folk Song?

Moeran:
Well, I would say a Folk Song is that which has evolved itself in the course of time, among races or communities. As opposed to that deliberately composed by individuals and written out on staves of music.
But there is no reason why a Folk Song should not spring up today. As a matter of fact, we are playing one tonight about a living event which happened in Barton Broad.
And again, there is that ballad that I noted down in Oxfordshire about Mrs. Dyer, the wretched Baby Farmer and she was hanged at the end of the last century.

Brown:
Yes, and that was the type of song we wished to record, and we wanted them sung in the traditional, almost orchestral style, that the real folk song singer uses.

Moeran:
No accompaniment!

Brown:
No, certainly not. Think of some of those singers we heard elsewhere in Suffolk, some of the old ones knew folk songs, but they had sung them too long with a vamping piano, all the character had been ironed out of them.

Moeran:
Yes, Yes, and there is another thing, the words. We agreed that it was our duty to record the words as they were actually sung. Unfortunately much of the verbal texts of collections published so far have had about the same relation as the genuine article as does Thomas BowdlerÕs version to the authentic Shakespeare.

Brown:
Yes (and laughs..both)

Moeran:
This may or may not have been expedient with regard to collections intended for public purchase; but with regard to texts privately circulated by learned societies, can only be described to a kind of coyness and squeamishness.

Brown:
Well, those were our requirements and between us we were lucky enough to know where to go to find enough material for several broadcasts: Suffolk, and above all, North East Norfolk.

For more on the programme - see:http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/moeran.htm


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:43 AM

Not quite sure what your point is there Ron.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:47 AM

The replacement of those methods by broadcast and recorded music stopped the folk process happening - those traditions aren't evolving, because there's nowhere for them to do so.

The folk-process is a conditional fantasy on the part of the people who believe in the integrity of what is, after all, merely a concept. It is an article of a faith that has no objective currency outside of those who hold it to be a self-evident truth which is, self-evidently, not the case at all. Traditions are evolving with the musicians who are out there singing and playing the stuff whatever their sources might be. Every time you sing a song you are, in fact, evolving it if only to suit your requirements; in so doing you are no different from any other Traditional Singer at any other point in time. Now, this is an observable phenomenon; I see it all the time, we all do. It's in the organic nature of the universe that nothing stays the same, and nothing can ever happen the same way twice. If traditions aren't evolving its because our concept of The Tradition is out of keeping with the reality of the tradition, which isn't something that's going to roll over and die just because its easier for the 1954 Faithful to deal with a corpse.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: RTim
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:53 AM

Oops - sorry I seem to have copied the text of programme twice -

apologies - Tim R


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:10 AM

If someone writes a song in 2009 about the lives of British working people, should we ignore it because it is not a folk song?

That's an easy one. No, but we shouldn't say that it is a folk song.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:18 AM

Every time you sing a song you are, in fact, evolving it if only to suit your requirements; in so doing you are no different from any other Traditional Singer at any other point in time.

That's true enough at the point of performance. What's different is what happens next - what happens to that song because of what the singer does to it. These days, not a lot - as I said above, there are never going to be multiple Tambourine Mans (Men?) - except to the extent that the Byrds' version is an established variant - because anyone hearing the song performed can go straight back to the source.

If traditions aren't evolving its because our concept of The Tradition is out of keeping with the reality of the tradition

To me, that's a bit like defining electric trains as a form of steam train, then saying that if people think steam trains aren't running any more it's because their concept is out of keeping with the reality of steam trains. Things change. People used to make music much, much more than they do now - mainly because the option of listening to it without making it was much less widely available - and when they did, things happened to music that don't get a chance to happen now. Other stuff happens instead.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:21 AM

"People used to make music much, much more than they do now"

Is there any evidence for this?

Be interesting to know.

Ta

Paul


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:27 AM

"That's an easy one. No, but we shouldn't say that it is a folk song. "

So your only gripe is the label.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:45 AM

Ron - it's not a 'gripe'! My disagreement is with the use of the word 'folk' to refer to music which I don't think can be defined as 'folk'.

Banjiman - the thing is, in some ways I don't think people have changed
all that much. People like music while they work - and when there weren't any radios, they couldn't listen to the radio. People like music to relax with - and when there weren't any CDs, they couldn't put a CD on. People like to hear new songs - and when the only way to buy a brand new song was on a sheet of paper, they couldn't hear a new song without singing it. It all adds up to music being performed a lot more often, in a lot more places, by a lot more people.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:49 AM

Gripe=disagreement.

You do not have to call contemporary songs "folk" if you do not wish to.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:55 AM

Pip,

With all due respect, that's not evidence, it's an assumption!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:57 AM

I am off to play some folk music,and it wont be tie a yellow ribbon


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:59 AM

What's different is what happens next - what happens to that song because of what the singer does to it.

Why does anything have to happen next? We live in the here and now, and all that matters is the moment we're in and the provenance of that moment. Does a traditional song die the moment it's collected? So who killed the folk process? No - I think we need to widen the somewhat precious parameters of the 1954 definition and factor in the other ways songs might be transmitted and, therefore, transformed, and, as I've shown, the folk process can be shown to be alive and well. However, that means extending the parameters of what is Folk Music, and there is a reactionary element who don't want that. Funny how all these old radicals were so pitifully conservative when it came to culture. Patronising old bastards the lot of them! Fact is, they don't want Folk Music to be of The Folks, they want to keep it to their Intellectual Elite.

WLD - if you're reading this, you can expect at least one pint from me if our paths cross at Fylde this year; if you then choose to pour that pint over my head, I'll accept that as a baptism.   

To me, that's a bit like defining electric trains as a form of steam train, then saying that if people think steam trains aren't running any more it's because their concept is out of keeping with the reality of steam trains. Things change.

A train is still a train, I think, regardless of the location of the combustion - internal, external, or remote. I think the function is the important thing; the fact of it being a train rather than a skateboard; it still runs on tracks, and through the same cuttings, tunnels and embankments built by navvies long dead; a journey on any train is a journey into the past, like the journey from Poulton-le-Fylde to Manchester Oxford Road, where we might look out and see a replica of The Planet in full steam. Hmmmm. Is that what it's all about? Nostalgic replication? If people want to define Folk Song as being something out of necessity archaic, then that's a cosy idealism which I confess I find as appealing as I do repellent, however - we travel through the same landscapes, transformed on a daily basis & it's like this every time you sing a song, any song, not just a traditional song.   

People used to make music much, much more than they do now - mainly because the option of listening to it without making it was much less widely available - and when they did, things happened to music that don't get a chance to happen now. Other stuff happens instead.

I'm not sure if that's true; maybe the reverse is true. But whatever people used to do in the past, it wasn't necessarily Folk Music as we understand it. I've spoken to old musicians from mining communities who, whilst being fully conversant with the brass band tradition, have never heard any of the mining songs supposedly traditional to those communities. And then we hear tales of Bert Lloyd and Ewan McColl giving concerts at the Tow Law WMC to give the miners back their lost folk songs. I find this very telling as to the nature of Trad. Folk Song and the extent to which it existed at all, compared to the extent people wish to believe it existed. In my family we had fragments of such songs, but always alongside other songs, never in isolation. Whatever the numbers, there are a lot of people making music and singing for pleasure these days - and might I suggest there a lot more people singing Traditional Songs these days than has ever been the case hitherto?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 12:14 PM

"The use and misuse of the language is confined to the folk world"

errr...no it's not


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 12:18 PM

PS -

That's an easy one. No, but we shouldn't say that it is a folk song.

I know lots of songwriters who have written some bloody fine folk songs - Ivan McKeon, Alan Bell, Ron Baxter, Ted Edwards, Johnny Handle, Graham Miles to name but a few - all of whose work have found its way into various oral traditions and might be heard sung as though it was, indeed, traditional. At what point does a song become a folk song? At what point did Peter Bellamy's settings of Kipling become folk songs, or else his self-penned songs from The Transports? Would anyone dispute calling these songs Folk Songs? Bellamy, as I recall, used the term Folk Idiom, to mean a particular approach to such matters, but it remains, after all, still Folk.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 12:26 PM

I `ad that Minister of Culture in my cab the other day. `e looked well pleased with `imself and `ad a wapping great pile of papers under `is arm.
`e said, "`ouse of Commons, please Jim."
I said, "You look like a cat that`s `ad all the cream. What`s going on , then?"
`e said, "Well, you know all this `owjadoo about our culture dying out.? I`m going to introduce a bill to redress the balance."
I said, " What. You gonna make music and singing in schools part of the old curriculum again, like we `ad years ago?"
`e said, " Nah. We`re gonna fast track it. It`s gonna be illegal for the working man to `ave a telly or computer games. That`ll get `em singing again!!"

Whaddam I Like??

But, seriously though. I`m just looking through a book called Victorian Street Ballads. It `as loads of songs and doggerel they found printed on `andbills and broadsheets from the early 1800`s. Well, you could`ve knocked me down with a feather. `undreds of `em are what we sing in our band and we`ve always reckoned they`re folk songs. After `aving read all the stuff above I don`t know whether I`m on me `ead or me `eels. Cop an eyeful of this list below for starters.

Riggs of the Times
We`re All Jolly Felows That Follows The Plough.
Hop Picking In Kent
My Father Kept A Horse
Miles Weatherill ( I got Nick Jones doing that one)
Female Transport
Tarpaulin Jacket ( `e asks to be wrapped up in it when `e dies)
Polly Perkins
I Likes A Drop Of Good Beer
Free And Easy
Old Horse (this is the one with `edges , ditches, etc.)
Massa`s In The Cold Cold Ground


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 12:36 PM

The above, me thinks, will open up Ye Newe Canne of ye Wormes


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 12:55 PM

At what point does a song become a folk song?

Ms Karpeles wondered about that one too. Ye Olde Dead Hande of 1954 Dogma with regard to this one is:

a) It happens.
b) Except when it doesn't.
c) When it happens, it usually takes quite a long time.
d) But it can be quite quick.

Rifleman - I'm sure that everyone who thinks that a song ceases to be a folksong the moment it's written down will be up in arms. Or they will when they get back from picketing the Bodleian Web site.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 01:10 PM

For those who wish to form a picket line:

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ballads/ballads.htm


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 03:05 PM

"Perhaps it's time to put this discussion into its actual context and get it out of the greenhouse atmosphere of the folk scene." - Jim Carroll, March 23, 4.54 am.

Excellent post, Jim.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 03:12 PM

"I'm sure that everyone who thinks that a song ceases to be a folksong the moment it's written down will be up in arms"

Oh dear;does this mean I'll have to stop using Ye Olde Penguin Booke of Folke Songs as a reference?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 04:17 PM

Sorry, Broadband's been down all afternoon + packing for a weeks holiday - not been able to join the bunfight.
Bryan,
"What can I do to persuade you that there is?"
You might volunteer to transcribe and annotate 80-odd Walter Pardon tapes and a dozen or so Winterton recordings, but I'm sure your as busy as we are. I would point out that we have issued several CDs from our collection, including 1 of traditional storytelling (British and Irish) as well as selections from Fred Hamer's collection 'Leaves of Life'. Anything further is hard slog and has to be prioritised. Do any of you know how minute the sales figures are for albums of field recordings? It makes no difference to us as all profits from CD sales go to I.T.M.A., but they are an indication of response to and interest in something that entails a lot of bloody hard work.
"Not good enough, Jim."
I'm afraid it will have to be for now. If the BL wish to put our collection on the web they have our full blessing.
"MacColl didn't just sit back and say "It's there in the museums if anyone wants it."
Nor did he knock on people's doors delivering what he had to offer - he expected people to emerge from their shells and make the effort.
"Surely you have a duty to pass on the flame."
And surely you have the duty to make the effort to take it when it's on offer, albeit in a limited form?
We are not the only collectors and certainly not the most important or prolific - how accessible is the work of others (do you want a list)?
"What are you going to do with your declining years...."
Come on Bryan - we were doing so well without the snide.
"What is stopping you passing on the heritage that has been left in your trust?"
Nothing whatever, expept the declining years. We are in the process of setting up a local archive of recorded material as part of a county-wide folk/heritage centre (so far we've deposited around 1,000 tapes from our personal collection). The next job is to organise for publication a collection of around 150 Travellers songs and 175 stories. Then we will embark on a biography of Kerry Traveller Mikeen McCarthy, (singer, storyteller, incredible source of Traveller lore, tinsmith, horse dealer, street singer, broadsheet seller.....). Ask anybody who ever saw him perform how important he was: (Musical Traditions Club, Singers Club, National Folk Festival and many other song and storytelling clubs and festivals in the days when the most of the clubs welcomed traditional performers).
And then maybe we'll get time to watch 'The Bill' and go and see 'Che part 2', and maybe even fit in a pint and a session in town.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 04:51 PM

"What are you going to do with your declining years...."
Come on Bryan - we were doing so well without the snide.

Seems like a polite enough question to me. I personally think some people need to get over themselves


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 05:05 PM

Jim, that was a wonderful post and totally at odds with anything you have ever said before. What on earth was the point of the "leave it on the shelf", "why bother" remarks that have typified your previous posts?

You might volunteer to transcribe and annotate 80-odd Walter Pardon tapes

Don't think I could tackle all 80 and I'm not really qualified to do the annotations but I'd be willing to help out. Why not start a thread asking for volunteers? Could be a useful project for a Newcastle student.

Nor did he knock on people's doors delivering what he had to offer - he expected people to emerge from their shells and make the effort.

And he had sufficient faith in people to believe they would. You don't.

And surely you have the duty to make the effort to take it when it's on offer, albeit in a limited form?

Yes. Your point?

We are not the only collectors and certainly not the most important or prolific - how accessible is the work of others (do you want a list)?

You are the only one that I know of who is going round saying that it's not worth doing because nobody cares and the clubs are full of people singing Beatles songs.

You have accused me of being crass, of dumbing down and of promoting crap standards. I think I can cope with being called snide.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 05:09 PM

"MacColl didn't just sit back and say "It's there in the museums if anyone wants it."
Nor did he knock on people's doors delivering what he had to offer - he expected people to emerge from their shells and make the effort.
MacColl helped to organise a folk club, which he and others publicised in Melody Maker.,to my way of thinking he made a positive attempt to get people interested,he didnt just expect people to seek it out for themselves.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 06:04 PM

"apart from go on internet threads and rant about the deckline of UK folk clubs because someone said that someone once sang The Great Pretender in something that chose to call itself a folk club in defiance of the 1954 definition? You know it's true; you read it on Mudcat."
Sorry - this is the bit I took umbridge at - maybe I'm being a bit umpty - been stuggling with this ******* computer all day.
Am also feeling a bit morbid - a parcel arrived this morning; a gift copy of Marrowbones kindly sent to me by Malcolm Douglas; shook me a little.
A few days in the pissing rain in Malta should sort me out no end.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 06:14 PM

Jim,have agood holiday,Ihope the sun shines a lot.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 06:36 PM

I really wonder how many people who are bad-mouthing the "1954 definition" and other efforts by folklorists and ethnomusicologists have actually read this material, carefully, all the way through, and then thought about it for awhile without instant knee-jerking.

I really wonder why people who apparently don't like what those like me (and others) consider to be folk songs (traditional songs, such as those found in Sharp's and Lomax's collections, Child ballads, and such) and prefer the songs of Jacques Brel, songs such as "People" recorded a few decades ago by Barbra Streisand, "Memory" from Cats, or really old songs like "Old Buttermilk Sky" by Hoagy Carmichael, or songs they have written themselves and whom no one else sings—or wants to sing—or wants to hear a second time for that matter—and then insist that everyone else acknowledge these songs as folk songs, ostensibly because "I'm a 'folk' [as contrasted with a horse, I presume] and these are the songs I like to sing. Learn those boring old ballads? Not me!"

I really wonder why these people seem to feel that the aforementioned songs are not acceptable as good songs per se unless those who are primarily interested in traditional folk songs (from Sharp, Lomax, et al) acknowledge them as "folk songs."

I really wonder why, if some people find traditional folk songs and ballads so bloody boring, they want to spend time in folk clubs at all.

I really wonder why there are people who are bright enough to know better, but who seem to be too mentally lazy to deal with the time-honored and essential tools of clear thinking, such as "define your terms."

I really wonder why I waste my time on this thread. I'm going to go and play some music.

Traditional folk music. You know:   from Sharp, Lomax, etc.

Don Firth

P. S.   GUEST, a passing academic, thank you for your post at 23 Mar 09 - 09:21 a.m.

P. P. S.   "If someone writes a song in 2009 about the lives of British working people, should we ignore it because it is not a folk song?" No, of course not. But why do you feel it's so bloody essential to insist that it's a "folk song?" Especially, when it's new and has not had time to go through "the folk process?" Although I am generally regarded as a "folk singer," if a song appeals to me, I will learn it and sing it, whether or not it is a traditional song. But I will not try to pass it off as a "folk song." I credit the source, as ethically one should.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 06:50 PM

I agree with you, Don.

I am not now nor ever have been a folksinger. I doubt I ever will be. Because of that I really dislike being labelled as one. I would not be ashamed to be labelled as one were I one.The music I write is rock or pop or protest or . . . . Thassit.

When I do go to folk clubs I seldom hear folk songs. People don't know all that many of them. I may know two or three and when I do sing them in a performance I do introduce them as folk songs whose authors are dead and gone. However, not to listen to material simply because the author is known denotes a listener who uses note pads less than a 1/4" wide because that's how narrow the mind of the listener is.

I will and do accept the 1954 definition, but then why not accept it? I also don't give a rat's ass about it. Either I like specific songs or I don't. The criterion for me is the song, not the origin.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:11 PM

Jim Carroll

"apart from go on internet threads and rant about the deckline of UK folk clubs because someone said that someone once sang The Great Pretender in something that chose to call itself a folk club in defiance of the 1954 definition? You know it's true; you read it on Mudcat."
Sorry - this is the bit I took umbridge at -


I and a lot of other people I know work bloody hard to promote exactly the sort of music you want. Don't you realise how gratuitously offensive you are being when you sieze on bizarre isolated incidents like The Great Pretender to condemn ALL UK folk clubs as moribund? I take umbrage at that.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:13 PM

...and enjoy your holiday. I hope you come back in a more charitable frame of mind.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:39 PM

"I really wonder why people who apparently don't like what those like me (and others) consider to be folk songs (traditional songs, such as those found in Sharp's and Lomax's collections, Child ballads, and such..."

Don, I don't think ANYONE is denying that your examples are indeed folksongs. Most of those collections contain traditional songs, although Lomax certainly collected songs with known authors and would not fit that 1954 definition either.

I can't speak for others, but I certainly do not find those songs boring. Those songs continue to play an important role in my life.

You gave some examples.   Alan Lomax spent time collecting Italian and Spanish folk songs.   I think of the late Henrietta Yurchenco and her pioneering work field recording pre-Columbian native Mexican music. She also collected and researched the folk music of Guatemala, Spain, Morocco, Puerto Rico and the Georgia Sea Island among other cultures. These are important folk traditions as well. We certainly cannot forget the studies of African-American folk music either.

The point is - folk music is very broad. No one is denying the music that you love and spoke about is folk music. The rest of us see a modern connection that we strongly consider to be folk music as well. It does not replace the traditions that you spoke about or the traditions that Jim Carroll speaks about - two vastly different bodies of music with an important connection.   The contemporary folk music that you wish to ignore - and that is certainly your perogative - IS an example of evolving traditions and deserve to wear the banner of "folk music".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:51 PM

not to listen to material simply because the author is known denotes a listener who uses note pads less than a 1/4" wide because that's how narrow the mind of the listener is.

I don't think anyone has said they won't listen to songs with a known author, or even that they'll refuse to perform them. All the Sturm und Drang on this thread has been kicked off by people wilfully, immoderately and with malice aforethought suggesting that recently-composed songs shouldn't be referred to as 'folk songs', and furthermore having the unmitigated audacity to opine that places called 'folk clubs' ought to put on a bit of traditional music now and again. Nowt so queer as folk[ies].


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Betsy
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 08:29 PM

Let's remember Roberta Flack - ( I think ) who sang McColls " The very first time I saw your face ". It was written by a Folk singer highly cherished in this thread - but not a song I would expect to hear in a Folk club.
If I did, and it was performed well, it would give me pleasure.
Folk music is in your own head.
We all know the difference between folk and other genres ,without being directed by an out of date "definition".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 09:50 PM

"Don, I don't think ANYONE is denying that your examples are indeed folksongs. . . ."

Honestly, Ron, if you are going to comment on what I post, please read it a little more carefully. I did not say that anyone is denying that this material (Sharp, Lomax, et al) is folk music. I was talking about those who are not interested in it, and who prefer other songs instead, such as the pop songs I indicated, or self-composed songs.

And I am fully aware that Alan Lomax did not collect songs only in the United States and the British Isles. I am also fully aware that the category of "folk music" is very broad indeed. But there are certain characteristics that it must possess for folklorists, ethnomusicologist, and anthropologists to include it in the category known as "folk music," no matter what part of the world it comes from.

Nor did I indicate in any way that I ignore what you refer to as "contemporary folk music." I do sing some of this material. But in the case of a song by Tom Paxton or Frank Beddoe, when the author is known and the songs have not been "folk processed"—changed in any way—since they were written, I do not regard them as "folk" songs. They are contemporary songs. And I credit the writer when I sing these songs.

And although it is a temptation because they are so well done, I do not regard songs written by Gordon Bok as folk songs, even though they are practically indistinguishable from traditional material. There, too, when I sing a song written by Gordon Bok (and I do a lot of them), I give him proper credit.

Why must these recently composed songs, excellent though many of them are, be called "folk songs" when they don't meet the criteria that ethnomusicologists agree on and when doing so only sews confusion and misinformation? As is amply demonstrated by some of the posts on this and other similar threads!

I have an upstairs neighbor, a young woman, who has just recently released a CD of songs she has written. In the spirit of "support your local musician," I bought a copy from her. She regards her songs as folk songs because someone she knows told that is what they are. She said that she "learned all about folk music" from a friend of hers, whom I subsequently looked up on MySpace. He, too, writes songs. His songs are "interesting," but he wouldn't know a folk song if it bit him in the ass!

Misty sings well and the songs she writes are quite interesting. One of them is a bit of a "gripper," and I might learn it. If I do, whenever I sing it, I will not claim that it's a folk song, I will say that it was written by Misty Weaver. Another friend of hers, Roger Palmeri, did the arrangements for her and engineered the CD. On some of the songs, he added a drum-track, which I find a bit intrusive at times. And in my opinion, unnecessary.

Her MySpace blurb says that she's living in France. She went to Paris for a few months, then returned in early January. She's off again, this time to New Orleans, where she is originally from, but she lives with her husband in the same apartment building that I live in.

As to whether the songs she writes are folk songs or not, when and if I think she's ready to hear it, I may have a chat with her about that. I don't think she is especially emotionally attached to the idea that they are folk songs. It's just that she was told by her friend that that is what they are.

And please—kindly do not try to refute what I have written by misinterpreting what I say. (Pedant alert:   the Academics strike again!!) This is know among logicians as the "straw man fallacy."

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, I lied. Instead of working on folk songs this afternoon, I've been working out a classic guitar arrangement (lute-style) for "The Wind and the Rain," sung by Feste at the end of Shakespeare's Twelfth Night. Not a folk song. I found the tune in The Ballad Literature and Popular Music of the Olden Time, Vol. I, by William Chappell. This book contains many folk songs, but a lot that are not folk songs, although they are several centuries old. Feste's song hasn't changed in over four centuries.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:04 PM

Never mind Don


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:06 PM

Right!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:11 PM

Perhaps we will both read a bit more carefully next time


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 02:04 AM

The Snail: "Don't think I could tackle all 80 and I'm not really qualified to do the annotations but I'd be willing to help out. Why not start a thread asking for volunteers? Could be a useful project for a Newcastle student."

Sounds like a jolly good idea to me. Especially regards contacting the University!

Though I also touch type, for what it might be worth...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 03:35 AM

I and a lot of other people I know work bloody hard to promote exactly the sort of music you want. Don't you realise how gratuitously offensive you are being when you sieze on bizarre isolated incidents like The Great Pretender to condemn ALL UK folk clubs as moribund? I take umbrage at that.
Bryan,
I spent thirty odd years in the clubs. I watched and one by one they fell off the tree; saw hundreds of bad performances, which previously would not have been tolerated by club audiences, gradually become accepted, defended then preferred because "the folk didn't have standards so why should we?" or "the old singers sang anything so what does it matter?"
Neither of these statements are in any way true, both standards and discrimination were paramount to many of the singers we met - we recorded hours of them saying so.
If a singer has an off night - tough - it's happened to all of us, he/she'll probably do better next time. If they start having regular off nights, it's obvious to me that they need to do some work. If they, their fellow performers start to argue that it doesn't matter, then bad singing becomes the norm. If it is further argued that it doesn't matter because it's only a bit of fun anyway - the important thing is to sing and bugger the standards - you've dropped the ball, and in doing so, you have been "gratuitously offensive" to the singers who gave us our raw material.
These are not isolated incidents of a bygone era. They drove me out of most of the clubs I frequented on a regular basis. The last two clubs I attended in the UK (last year and the year before) were just as I have described - even worse in the case of one of them which I know to have been running for at least 25 years. I hear the attitude not only defended, but promoted on this forum regularly - take a look at some of the 'are standards necessary' threads.
Couple this situation with a thread like this where I should "give it a break" when I say I expect some vague idea of what I am going to hear when I attend a folk club, and you've got a bloody mess.
Sure, I can phone in advance to find out if the local folk club caters for people who like folk music - I can phone the grocer's shop in Galway to find out if the cheese they are advertising is real cheese and not that plastic shit that comes in airtight containers. I SHOULDN'T BLOODY HAVE TO


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:10 AM

" The very first time I saw your face ". It was written by a Folk singer highly cherished in this thread - but not a song I would expect to hear in a Folk club.
If I did, and it was performed well, it would give me pleasure.
Folk music is in your own head.


Actually Dave Burland does a terrific version of this song - and makes it sound like one of MacColl's - on the Burland/Capstick/Gaughan album of MacColl songs. Betsy, PM me if you haven't got a copy.

The reason I'm banging the drum for trad isn't that I don't like contemporary music, or even that I don't like singer-songwriters. It's just that - if my local FC is anything to go by - this kind of unstated definition of 'folk' can't be relied on any more. People don't give you half a set of traditional songs, a couple of MacColls, a Leadbelly and a few originals; you get an entire set of original material with perhaps the odd Dylan or Hank Williams number thrown in. It's not the same - and, nine times out of ten, it's not as good. My interest in traditional songs ignited when John Kelly did a guest slot & did an entire set of traditional songs - I had no idea there was so much stuff out there, or that it could sound so good. And this was after being a regular FC attender for around five years.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:15 AM

Sodding computer:
.....and if I had to each time I went to the grocer's he'd pretty soon be out selling The Big Issue.
Of course not all clubs are like this - it wouldn't be worth even thinking about if they were; but enough of them are to cause concern, and Alice in Wonderland threads like this one are only going to cement the condition into place permanently.
Argue for no standards and 'it doesn't matter what we give 'em' and what have you got - undefinable songs badly sung - gratuitously offensive to singers like Walter Pardon, who knew the difference, to me as a folkie 'lifer' and to the intelligence of any potenial audience for our music.
It is gratuitously offensive not to give of our best to anybody who comes to listen to out music. It is gratuitously offensive to make facile comparisons between our music and other forms which are obviously light years different, and are little more that excuses for not thinking the subject through.
My ideas and opinions didn't spring out of just internet threads or a few bad experiences, or books..... They came from running and singing at clubs, from sitting in the older singers kitchens and listening to what they have to say, and from coming home from club after club with the opinion that I could have heard better in a 'Knees Up Mother Brown' crocodile. Sure, the books played a part in the way I think - unlike some people on this thread, I'm not prepared to block off any source of information by describing it as 'academic shit'. Nor am I going to refuse to listen to an experienced and dedicated club organiser like yourself - the more you have to tell us about how you have managed to run a good club, the more chance we have of getting the ball back in play.
Earlier I outlined what I believe to be the implications of the 1954 definition. If I am wrong and what I described is not folk music, then tell me what I've missed. If you feel the term needs re-defining, feel free to do so, but you're going to have to convince a lot of people who, though they may not attend the clubs, are still up to their ears in the music, and who, if we are wrong in our analysis, are sending out a distorted message which is the one that will prevail.
Jim Carroll
PS Didn't really mistakenly hit the send button, but deliberately sent this in two parts because it was too long.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:16 AM

PS Pip,
Don't interrupt when someone's talking!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 06:47 AM

Looks like we're straying back into realms of subjective idealism here. The whole point of this thread was to look at the Objective Reality of what was being done In the Name of Folk, and whether or not that was compatible with the the 1954 definition. If you want ideals then by all means start another thread - call it: The Folk Police: What Should be Happening in Our Folk Clubs or even worse What Used to Happen in Our Folk Clubs but Doesn't Now, or worse still Why What I Do is Proper Folk and What Anyone Else Does Isn't. And I'm not too bothered about a discussion of standards either - least of all from someone who felt it necessary to dismiss my singing of a traditional ballad as being somehow akin to bad pop music.

I only listen to folk music in singarounds & clubs; I steer well clear of Folk Celebrity (with few exceptions) and anything that involves PA systems (on account of my damaged hearing*) and on those rare occasions I do listen to folk at home, I listen to the so-called Source Singers. One of my favourites is Mrs Pearl Brewer, as recorded by Max Hunter in 1958; her singing of The Cruel Mother (Here) I regard as damn near definitive & yet I'm sure many here would disagree, and well they might. I don't go to a singaround to judge people on their weaknesses, rather I go to appreciate them on their strengths - even the strength of having the balls to get up and sing a song in the first place. The fact that here in 2009 people are still doing it is cause for celebration, & celebrate I jolly well will; I go to get pissed and have a ball. I like a laugh & enjoy the crack (as we Northumbrians say) even though all my songs tend to be serious traditional songs & ballads, sung seriously too. However bad my singing is judged to be I reserve that right to sing what I am moved to sing and must, therefore respect that right in others too.

* I blame the Pink Fairies for this, one of their numerous farewell tours, circa 1975, which has made it painful for me to endure loud music ever since. Coincidentally, it was around that time I first started wandering into Folk Clubs; for respite likely. It's worse now, so when over-amplification is involved I tend not to bother.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:02 AM

Let's face it, all'folk' songs were contempory at some time or other i.e. all the Napoleonic ballads, General Wolf etc. The fact that they were 'collected' years & years after the events desxcribed makes them 'traditional'but if some unknown writer wrote a song about,lets say, the death of Jade Goodey [as aposed to the Death of Queen Jane] & some collector heard it being sung in 20 years time, would that make it 'traditional'?
Besides writing, as I would put it,'within the folk idiom' my main interest is sea songs. During my time in the MN I noted down, all the shipboard songs I heard, & no I don't mean chanties, they were long gone, no one knew who wrote them, their were scores of varients of many of these songs [see Perma Thread 'Merchant Navy Songs]. All of them were 20th C songs, does this make them 'traditional' or 'folk' or just 'songs'? In the main they use existing tunes, a few of them folk tunes, but mainly popular song tunes e.g. Bye bye blackbird.
I don't rearly care, I love traditional songs with a passion, but also contemporary 'folk' songs if they stike a chord with me.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Phil Beer
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:06 AM

I also blame the PINK FAIRIES too. Hawkwind got arrested on their way into Exeter when I were a lad and the Fairies played the entire night (Rock night at Tiffs'.) Discovered a great way of protecting hearing years ago though. Two cigarette filters carefully inserted in the appropriate orifices. 20/30db cut and removes many of the annoying transients. I still go to as much live music of all shapes, sizes, and denominations as I did in those days but since I no longer smoke, one packet generally lasts a year or two.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:28 AM

"The Folk Police: What Should be Happening in Our Folk Clubs or even worse What Used to Happen in Our Folk Clubs but Doesn't Now, or worse still Why What I Do is Proper Folk and What Anyone Else Does Isn't. "
No, it looks like we're scurrying back behind infantile name calling
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:32 AM

[see Perma Thread 'Merchant Navy Songs].

An amazing resource: PermaThread: Merchant Navy Songs

I also blame the PINK FAIRIES too.

I tried ear plugs but they spoil the music!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:38 AM

The fact that they were 'collected' years & years after the events desxcribed makes them 'traditional'but if some unknown writer wrote a song about,lets say, the death of Jade Goodey [as aposed to the Death of Queen Jane] & some collector heard it being sung in 20 years time, would that make it 'traditional'?

Yes, if it happened, but how likely is that? If someone writes a song about Jade Goody now - and it doesn't get recorded - then who's going to hear it? If it is recorded, of course, then the process Maud Karpeles described is unlikely to happen -

Firstly, the tune is to some extent translated into the accepted idiom, so that the continuity of tradition is maintained; secondly, it ceases to be static and stereotyped, but becomes multiform through the individual variations made by its performers; and thirdly, the forms in which the tune ultimately survives are determined by the community: for the variations which meet with approval persist, and the others die out. In this sense, a folk song, even when it has an individual origin, may be said to be of communal authorship.

- and it probably won't become a folk song. It may be a hit, and you may see them singing it on the Top of the Pops, but it won't be a folk song. (Not definitely, but probably.)

The Merchant Navy songs you refer to are really interesting - it's certainly folk song, whether or not we call the individual songs folksongs! I wonder if that kind of singing still goes on, or if lads go out with iPods these days?

Society changes. Once you needed to be able to ride a horse in order to get from A to B, now you can get the bus. Once you needed to be able to sing a song in order to hear music, now you can switch on the radio. The folk process - the process that gave us the chanties and the Child ballads - is more or less dead, just like the blacksmith's trade is more or less dead; that's part of what makes the music it left us so valuable.

If anyone's exhibiting "subjective idealism" in this thread, it's surely the people who maintain that the tradition never died, the folk process goes on endlessly, and a folk song is just whatever a folk singer sings at a folk club. I second Don's point. We can all agree (I think) that there's a difference between traditional songs and contemporary songs; why must these recently composed songs, excellent though many of them are, be called "folk songs"?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:40 AM

"Looks like we're straying back into realms of subjective idealism here."
Can we establish on what this 'subjective idealism' is based - we've all attended, run and performed at clubs - some of us have an aversion to books as academic shite, maybe yours came to you in a dream along with the pink fairies.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:45 AM

No, it looks like we're scurrying back behind infantile name calling

Nothing could be further from the truth. In the above comical thread proposals I was reflecting on the tenor of several recent posts from Pip, Yourself & Don Firth respectively, fully aware that the whole thing is founded on subjective idealism anyway. Apologies for any offence caused in so doing.

Again - I'm trying to understand Folk Music according to the human reality of the thing rather the hoary academic ideal so many of you seem to regard as sacrosanct. I personally think it's bollocks, for reasons outlined (but never answered) elsewhere, as I would rather deal with a music defined by the subjective musicians than the objective academics. As with language, the study of a music is not the defining of it, yet pedantry abounds; a similar pedantry, I fear, pervades Folk Music. Pragmatically, however, it's something else entirely.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:47 AM

on the Top of the Pops

For what it's worth, the BBC pulled TOTP back in 2006.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:52 AM

the folk process goes on endlessly

As long as there are people and music the folk process will endure.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:56 AM

Pip Radish:
just like the blacksmith's trade is more or less dead

Minor pedantic correction here, Pip - our village blacksmith is alive and kicking, still carrying on as a farrier (shoeing horses) as well as more modern aspects of the job (mending agricultural equipment, wrought-ironwork, etc.)

As long as there's horses there'll always be farriers. :-)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Nick
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 08:17 AM

Will
Reminds me of my favourite joke of the week

Man goes for a job as a blacksmith.
"Have you had any experience shoeing horses?"
"No but I once told a donkey to piss off"

My coat is already on.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 08:30 AM

LOL!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 08:33 AM

Earlier I outlined what I believe to be the implications of the 1954 definition. If I am wrong and what I described is not folk music, then tell me what I've missed. If you feel the term needs re-defining, feel free to do so, but you're going to have to convince a lot of people who, though they may not attend the clubs, are still up to their ears in the music, and who, if we are wrong in our analysis, are sending out a distorted message which is the one that will prevail.

I fear your message is distorted, well & truly. Here again are my points regarding the 1954 definition.

Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission.

No musical tradition has ever evolved without the process of oral transmission.

The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.

All musical traditions are thus shaped - from Hip-Hop to Free Jazz, from Karaoke to Gamelan, from Drum & Bass to Dub Reggae, from Elvis Impersonators to Crusty Didgeridoo Players, from Trad Jazzers to George Formby Enthusiasts, from Neo-Medievalists to Death Metal Headbangers. This is the very nature of musical tradition, simply to be utterly dependent on the people playing it, who, in being fully conversant with the past are nevertheless re-determining it for both themselves and thus assuring its future survival.   

The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.

All music has evolved from rudimentary beginnings and I very much doubt there has ever been any such an uninfluenced community except in the twisted fantasies of academics who postulate such bullshit. Otherwise - all music has thus originated and been absorbed and transformed. In the composing of a Pop Song, for example - an idea becomes a composition, which is then further interpreted by a community of arrangers, session players, engineers and producers ever before the finished product hits the shelves. There we have The Folk Process in a nutshell. Was anything ever unwritten? What of the Chapbooks and Broadsides? Hell, even The Copper Family sing from a fecking book!   

The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.

No music ever remains unchanged, however so conveniently one might qualify the word change; each performance is a renewal within the expectations of its community which are further transfigured by its corporeal & empirical experience. A performance of Purcell's Dido and Aeneas in 2009 will be, out of necessity, very different from a performance of Dido & Aeneas within the same community from 40 years earlier. Ditto a rock band comprised of variously talented 14-year-olds going over Eleanor Rigby in a garage are re-fashioning a music, re-creating it, and giving it its folk-character. Likewise, a Folk Singer adapting Eleanor Rigby to their own needs and abilities for performance at his local Folk Club is effecting a transformation over a given piece of music, thus giving it its Folk Character.   A Karaoke singer singing Eleanor Rigby is doing exactly that too, likewise the worker who whistles the melody of Eleanor Rigby as they go cheerfully about their daily business, or else the schoolboy singing Eleanor Rigby as he walks to school.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 08:40 AM

Sinister Supporter: a remarkably longwinded version of the argument that used to exist in a rather shorter form; "all music is folk music, I've never heard a horse sing a song".
However, most of us can spot a qualitative difference, both in in form and historical function, between the Wild Rover and Eleanor Rigby. And a lot of us choose to call the former a folk song, but not the latter. If you can't detect that difference, there isn't much point in discussing it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 08:43 AM

ok,how about the songs of the singing postman are they folk.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 08:51 AM

The only "singing postman" I knew, wrote a song called "The Salt" - which is definitely written in the traditonal idiom and regarded as a folksong - FWIW.

Regards


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 09:53 AM

why must these recently composed songs, excellent though many of them are, be called "folk songs"?

Folk songs were 'recently composed' once.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 10:15 AM

Alan Smethhurst[singing postman]Allan Smethurst (November 19, 1927 - December 23, 2000), aka The Singing Postman was an English postman and singer.

Smethurst was raised in Sheringham, Norfolk, although he may have been born in Lancashire.[1][2] His mother came from the village of Stiffkey.

Smethurst hummed tunes on his daily post round for many years, before writing and singing songs in his native Norfolk dialect in the 1950s. An audition tape sent to the BBC earned him a spot on Ralph Tuck's local radio show, and Tuck promoted Smethurst under his own record label, "The Smallest Recording Organisation in the World".

In 1966, the Singing Postman's best known hit "Hev Yew Gotta Loight, Boy?" won Smethurst the Ivor Novello Award for best novelty song of the year. The hit knocked the Beatles from the top of the East Anglia hit parade and remained in the charts for nine weeks. The song had a small comeback in 1994 when it was featured on a television commercial for Ovaltine.

After appearing on The Des O'Connor Show, he signed with EMI and went on to record over 80 songs. He quit the music business in 1970.

Smethurst died in December 2000 after living the last twenty years of his life in a Salvation Army hostel in Grimsby.
    * Bin Born A Long Time
    * 45 Stringed Guitar
    * When The Moon Peeps O'er The Hill
    * Hev Yew Gotta Loight Boy?
    * Followin' Th' Binder Round
    * The Devil's Hoofprints
    * Roundabout
    * Miss from Diss
    * Moind yer head, boy
    * You'll hatta come along a me

other songs included:

    * ha' yer fa'er got a dickey, boy?
    * oi shot a rabbit up a tree
    * the motorbike song
    * Mystery of Owld Tom's Grave
,ON THE NIGHT OF HALLOWEEN,dont feel sorry for the postman,January Sales,WAS THE BOTTOM DROPPED OUT[this is a classic]
whas On the Richter Scale of Rock 'n' Roll casualties, Allan Smethurst barely registers. In fact his name, Allan Smethurst, barely registers at all but as the Singing Postman he found national fame for slightly longer than Andy Warhol's allotted fifteen minutes and at the same time became a local hero to celebrity starved Norfolk from where he originally hailed.
Owing more in looks, personality and musical style to George Formby than George Harrison, The Singing Postman was rocketed in to the pop music stratosphere when Norwich record shops reported that songs of his, sung in a distinct and now disappearing Norfolk dialect, such as 'Hev Yew Gotta Loight Boy?' and 'Oi Can't Get a Nice Loaf of Bread', were outselling the Beatles' 'Ticket to Ride'. Bemused and not a little frightened, Allan found himself courted by the suits from London, appearing on Top of the Pops alongside those other hicks from the sticks - the Rolling Stones - and having his most famous composition 'Loight Boy' covered by Rolf Harris. But fame and adulation did not sit easy with this simple man and not long after a ratings busting appearance on TV's Des O' Connor Show the dream began to unravel.

Allan Smethurst was born in Lincolnshire in 1927 but moved to Sheringham, a pretty little seaside town on the North Norfolk coast as a young boy. He is to this day well remembered by the town's older residents. Allan's parents were poor and his father disappeared from his life quite early on - possibly the first of a number of misfortunes to befall the shy young lad. On a school memory Internet site one pupil claims his nickname at the time was Smelly. What is without doubt is that Allan smashed his face in when he joined in the local kids' game of jumping on the back of passing horse and carts and promptly fell off. The injuries were substantial to his mouth and face and Allan suffered permanent damage to his palate that left him with a speech defect which although not necessarily detectable in his songs was very noticeable in his everyday conversation. This episode may well have inspired one of his more poignant compositions 'Moind Your 'Ead Boy'.

Allan's mother took up with a new man and moved with her teenage son to Cleethorpes back in his birth county. Allan was devastated to leave his friends, Sheringham and Norfolk, the county he loved and whose individuality and quirkiness he would affectionately celebrate time and time again in his songs. He experimented with a number of jobs eventually settling on a job as a postman; a living that allowed him the freedom to develop his musical and songwriting skills. Songs, which arguably all shared the same basic tune and structure, but with delightful lyrics and titles such as 'I Miss My Miss from Diss' and 'Fertilising Lisa'. In 1959 he submitted a self-made tape recording to radio in Norfolk which was picked up by local celebrity Ralph Tuck who featured Allan on his Wednesday Morning show and dubbed him The Singing Postman.

Fame did not follow immediately but over the next five years his regular appearances on radio built his reputation in Norfolk and record shops became accustomed to requests for recordings by the Singing Postman but of course there were none. Perhaps with an eye on the meteoric rise of Mr. Brian Epstein up in Liverpool, Mr Tuck sniffed an opportunity – became Allan Smethurst's manager and recorded him. EP's (extended plays) were all the rage, The Beatles' Twist and Shout, for example, selling so many it made the British Singles Charts despite its higher price. The Singing Postman released First Delivery and the first pressing of 100 copies sold out in days. Parlophone, the record label that boasted the Beatles but also had a history of recording novelty acts, took over the distribution and the EP went on to sell over 10,000 copies countrywide.

Rolf Harris, then a young bearded Australian singer/entertainer/artist ambitious and over here with a sharp eye for a novelty song followed his ground scratching 'Jake the Peg' with Allan's 'Hev Yew Got a Loight Boy', and in theory at least began generating some serious royalties for the musical postie. However none of The Singing Postman's songs appear in the chart history books sung by himself or Rolf. It was almost as if The Singing Postman didn't really happen. But he did. Back in 1965 there were only two television channels to choose from. Half of the country would be watching BBC1 and the rest would be a tad more adventurous and tune into ITV. A peak time appearance on The Rolf Harris Show was enough to make Hev Yew Gotta Loight Boy a national catchphrase in playgrounds and pubs across Britain for a few weeks.

Meanwhile the impresarios wanted Alan for the pop music package tours that were raking in thousands as singers and bands relentlessly crisscrossed the country playing cinemas and halls to adoring teenagers. Allan did some dates but found live performing traumatic and he was even more mortified when screaming girls outside one venue mobbed him. The GPO (General Post Office graciously granted Allan permission to perform in his uniform even though he had resigned his £12 a week job. Even with the comfort of his familiar tunic and hat Allan bore appearances on stage like a man having a heart bypass without anaesthetic; he took to standing and looking straight down at the floor as he strummed his guitar or facing the audience but with his eyes tightly shut. He began to drink during the afternoons before a performance to summon up the courage to get up on stage. Soon he had a reputation for being a drunk and from local beer Alan soon graduated to spirits – whiskey becoming the drug of his choice. Somewhere in London Bob Dylan was turning the Beatles on to pot, in Sussex various members of the Rolling Stones were experimenting with hallucegenics and Mars Bars but in Grimsby the Singing Postman was pissed out of his head in the public bar of The Leaking Boot on Jack Daniels.

The Singing Postman soon disappeared back into the obscurity that had spawned him except now he had a rock'n'roll a legacy – a raging drink habit. Occasionally he made the local papers but this time for some alcohol fuelled misdemeanour or other. Once there was a very lively row with his mother, stepfather and a frying pan, which ended up in the magistrates' court. He spoke little of his fame or his music preferring to engage fellow drinkers about whether they believed in extra-terrestrials. In 1980 he moved voluntarily into the Salvation Army hostel in Grimsby, Brighowgate House, where he wound his life down slowly.

In 1994 Hev yew gotta loight boy? was used in an Ovaltine advert and interest in The Singing Postman was briefly reignited. A collection of CDs was issued. The renewed interest in his career or the prospect of royalty cheques were not going to sway Allan again though. He was not about to step back into the limelight. Calls to the hostel from the media were met with a polite but firm rebuttal.

Shortly before he died in December 2000 at the age of 73 a visitor arrived at the hostel. The other residents were shocked but pleasantly surprised to see the ever cheerful and still familiar face from their TV screens. His black curly hair and beard were now grey but Allan Smethurst broke out into a rare broad toothy grin as Rolf Harris called out 'Hev You Gotta Loight, Boy?"




        
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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 10:18 AM

Wasn't Dave Mallet a singing postie?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Mallett


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 10:21 AM

However, most of us can spot a qualitative difference, both in in form and historical function, between the Wild Rover and Eleanor Rigby.

Both might be folk songs according the 1954 Definition; both might be folk sings according to the Horse Definition; both are songs I'd rather never hear again for the rest of my life, and yet both will, in all probability, be sung in the name of Folk at our Folk Club on Thursday Night. It's okay though; I will have checked in the shattered sherds of my brain on the way in in exchange for the sort of boozy intoxication that will ensure that I have a jolly good time regardless. I will be but a part of the community, faceless in my inebriation, off my folking head to such an extent that I will, no doubt, sorely regret it the next day. This whole thing is about Folk Empiricism not Qualitative Differences Both In Form and Historical Function; the former is about taking life squarely, and subjectively, on the jaw, whilst the latter is looking at life from the objective outside, assuming such a place exists at all, which I rather doubt to be honest.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 10:30 AM

1954 states that even a song with a known composer can be a folk song!

Says it all really


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 10:57 AM

Mr Happy - shhhhhh.....!

there are people around here who don't want that to become public knowledge.

Because it means that songs written today can become folk songs and, boy, do they hate that idea!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 11:16 AM

I said '1954' not '1984' - so Big Brother hopefully isn't watching!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 11:28 AM

There's a veritable band of Big Brothers on this forum, Mr H. and, oh yes, they're watching all right!

Hey *200*


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 11:36 AM

1954 states that even a song with a known composer can be a folk song!

Says it all really


*Sigh*

Yes, and it also says how that can happen:

Firstly, the tune is to some extent translated into the accepted idiom, so that the continuity of tradition is maintained; secondly, it ceases to be static and stereotyped, but becomes multiform through the individual variations made by its performers; and thirdly, the forms in which the tune ultimately survives are determined by the community: for the variations which meet with approval persist, and the others die out. In this sense, a folk song, even when it has an individual origin, may be said to be of communal authorship.

The Manchester Rambler might be a folk song in 50 years' time; so might Eleanor Rigby; so might Oops I Did It Again. But they ain't there yet, and - barring the draconian intervention of Jim Knowledge's ministry of culture - they aren't likely to get there.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 11:38 AM

........'ain't never heard no horse sing'

But I've heard plenty flawsingers do it hoarse!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 11:48 AM

Jim Carroll

The last two clubs I attended in the UK (last year and the year before) were just as I have described

The last two clubs I attended in the UK (last Saturday and last Thursday) were not as you have described. I heard a lot of music and song which I think you would have been quite happy to describe as folk music including at least one Walter Pardon song. I think you would have enjoyed yourself at both of them.

Nor am I going to refuse to listen to an experienced and dedicated club organiser like yourself - the more you have to tell us about how you have managed to run a good club, the more chance we have of getting the ball back in play.

Then perhaps you understand why I get a little peed off when you describe the policy we operate as "crass", "dumbing down", "promoting crap standards". I do not argue for "no standards"; I argue against imposing my standards on other people. I argue for the residents and regular floor singers to set a standard, if not of perfect quality, at least of caring about and respecting the music and putting in the effort it deserves then trusting people to set their own standards. Trust me, it works. You seem to equate wanting to sing with not being able to sing. I equate wanting to sing with wanting to sing well.

Earlier I outlined what I believe to be the implications of the 1954 definition. If I am wrong and what I described is not folk music, then tell me what I've missed.

I'm not contesting the 1954 definition. It has its problems but I approve of what it is trying to do. My point is that some people, as Sinister Supporter has shown, will interpret it in ways that suit them; some will ignore it; some (probably the majority) have never heard of it. All these people will continue to call what they do folk music. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

Sure, I can phone in advance to find out if the local folk club caters for people who like folk music - ..... I SHOULDN'T BLOODY HAVE TO

In an ideal world, no you shouldn't have to but I'm afraid you have to make do with the real world you actually live in. If you ask for cheese and get offered something that appears to be a byproduct of the oil industry, learn from the experience and find another grocer. Don't, as you are doing, condemn all grocers and swear never to eat cheese again. Is the music really less important than what you call it? Accept that you've lost control of those two words but don't throw the music away.

threads like this one are only going to cement the condition into place permanently

Yes they are if people like you whose voice carries a certain amount of clout insist on damning the whole UK folk scene to hell.

Of course not all clubs are like this

BREAKTHROUGH! But couldn't you try and help us rather than hindering?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 11:53 AM

Sinister Supporter in his long analysis of the situation makes a rather elementary logical mistake.
"I like bread. I like sausages. Therefore, sausages are a kind of bread." The fact that it is possible to put the Wild Rover and Eleanor Rigby into a category together(or maybe many categories together) does not necessarily make them both folk songs.
And the number of people who say, as if it proves something, "It's possible for a new song to become a folk song so there" continues to amaze. Of course a song can become a folk song. That does not prove all songs are folk songs.Or that all songs will become folksongs. It merely says some songs may become folk songs.
But anyone can say what they like, of course. If your fond belief is that a folksong is a song sung with an acoustic guitar(or possibly a lightly amplified guitar)....well, carry on, it it makes you happy.That belief will just make it awkward when you are trying to discuss folk music with other people.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 12:17 PM

Are we not conflating three entirely seperate things: folk music, folk music and folk music? Obviously, all three overlap to some extent, but essentially are substantially different beasts. Until we understand this we are doomed to stay on the infernal hamster wheel of these discussions.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 12:21 PM

Actually, there's folk music, folk music, folk music and stuff I like.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM

"... The Manchester Rambler might be a folk song in 50 years time....but they ain't there yet"
Nearly 30 years ago I collected:-
    " I'm a tramp ship, a tramp ship on no regular run,
      I go wherever the cargoes they come,
      It may be to Sydney on Sunday
      But they'll change it to Lagos come Monday"
The man I 'collected' it from had never heard of either 'The Manchester Rambler' or Ewan McColl. He'd learnt it on a ship he'd sailed on in the late 50s-early 60s. Is this the 'folk process' at work? Does this now mean that if 'The Manchester Rambler' is not yet a folk song, this dirived varient can be? Discuss.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 01:16 PM

He'd learnt it on a ship he'd sailed on in the late 50s-early 60s. Is this the 'folk process' at work?

Yes, it is. Maybe I was wrong about ye old Rambler!

On the other hand, I remember at one time it was quite the thing for kids to sing "Georgie Best, superstar" (those of us of a certain age will recall the next line, although precisely why it attached itself to Mr Best I've never known) - and I'm sure not all of them knew that they were singing a variant on "Jesus Christ Superstar". Does that make "JCS" a folk song? I don't really think so.

There's quite a useful word for the kind of thing we're talking about, viz. filk (although the filkers themselves, rather annoyingly, define filk as if they invented it). The activity of filksinging - writing new songs that piggyback on old ones - is a form of folksong, but I don't think the resulting songs are folk songs, because they aren't independent enough of the original source. But it's an interesting one (where by 'interesting' I mean 'I'm not sure what I think about it').


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 01:23 PM

Are we not conflating three entirely seperate things: folk music, folk music and folk music?

The awful thing is, I think he's right.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 01:49 PM

*Sigh*

Sigh?

So what's the problem with differentiating between Traditional Song and Folk Song? We might agree to hang the stuffed corpse of Traditional Song out to dry on the 1954 definition but it no longer accounts for what is being sung In the Name of Folk in folk clubs, festivals, singarounds, CDs etc.

"I like bread. I like sausages. Therefore, sausages are a kind of bread." The fact that it is possible to put the Wild Rover and Eleanor Rigby into a category together(or maybe many categories together) does not necessarily make them both folk songs.

A folk singer might well do both of these songs in a floor spot, just as I might wrap up my sausages in some bread and make a sandwich; the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This has nothing to do with what I want (although right now I could kill for a sausage sarnie) rather it is to do with the reality of a situation in which Traditional Song (and by implication the 1954 Definition) has less & less to do what is happening in the name of folk.   

That belief will just make it awkward when you are trying to discuss folk music with other people.

No it won't because most of the Folkies I know sing mostly non-traditional material and yet are quite happy to call it folk. This is what raised the issue in the first place.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 02:59 PM

If I'm a pastry chef and I cook a tri-tip roast, does that make it a pastry? After all, both are baked in an oven, can't I call it anything I want? I sick of all these pointy-headed, know-it-all food academics telling me what to do. I've never seen a horse bake a streudel . . .


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 03:49 PM

Actually, there's folk music, folk music, folk music and stuff I like.

Yeah - I'd rather to listen to jazz any day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlmMzUMCIIg


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:15 PM

"And I'm not too bothered about a discussion of standards either—"

I think that pretty well sums up the source of the problem.

I don't think that troubadours such as William of Aquitaine, Bernart of Ventadorn, Blondel de Nesle, or the Welsh bard Taliesin, or the Scottish minstrel Thomas Learmonth (the real Thomas the Rhymer) or the Icelandic skald Einarr Skúlason, when they sang a song that they had recently composed, announced that "This is a folk song I just wrote." And yet, it's people like these who conceivably may have been responsible for first penning (or quilling) some of the songs that we now call "ballads" (including, possibly, some of the Child ballads). Nor do I recall hearing that Woody Guthrie or Tom Paxton or Gordon Bok ever said that the songs they wrote are "folk songs."

There is a certain self-serving pomposity in proclaiming a song you have just written as a "folk song." To do so is to try to claim an unearned prestige for a song that has yet to prove itself.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:45 PM

I think Woody actually did call his compositions 'folk songs', though they aren't really folksongs according to the 1954 definition. Woody came out of a folk tradition, and he composed songs based upon folk models (for lack of a better term) but his songs are not the product of 'the folk' via oral transmission, etc. Have they become folksongs? Some probably have, 'Philadelphia Lawyer', etc. But he was much more of a commercial performer than some people realize.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:02 PM

I gave up years ago on trying to maintain a definition of "folk song". I know that most people who use the term use it very loosely. I lament that "traditional music" carries, for most people, connotations of old, fusty, boring, etc.

I think the reason a lot of people are wishing for a more, well, definitive definition of "folk song" is because we feel like our genre of music has been taken over by a bunch of folks who don't play, and don't have any interest in, the genre of traditional music. I could make a very good case for rap being folk music, going by a process based definition. How would all the singer/songwriters feel if we suddenly started calling rap music "folk music"?

I really don't get lumping Joni Mitchell and Martin Carthy into the same genre.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:11 PM

Paraphrase:

"My momma always said. Folk music is lack a box a' choc'luts. Ya never know whatcher gonna get."
                                                                                                                              --Forrest Gump

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Betsy
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:43 PM

Generally the songs that we all all going to hear at some sort of Folk gathering are not the type of song to which we are going to dance wildly or otherwise.We're going to listen genarally to a story and sometimes we get the chance to join in.
We will not be performing in evening dress, dickie bows and the like and I think we all know what to expect - and sometimes - just sometimes - will will get somthing we didn't expect - which we will like or otherwise. Let folk music be a living movement, don't strangle it with definitions of what it should be . Respect the 1954, but, don't hammer us with it in a thought-police manner.
Folk gatherings need smiles ,warmth , community and enjoyment to brought back to them - not all this eternal backbiting and bickering.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 09:34 PM

Well said, Betsy.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 10:15 PM

Tried to read as many posting as possible before contributing (failed to do all!).

QUARTS into a PINT pot - we have to accept there are (at least) two distinct types of Folk evident in the folk scene generally known as 1- traditional, 2) contemporary.

Recognize this and no problem. Try to put them under one all embracing definition and you can waste a lot of potential songwriting time.

Ewan McColl is a good person to focus on in view of his thoughts on the matter of what is folk, and the fact he contributed some of the best known FOLK (by any popular definition) songs we have in the folk scene now.

Here's an interetsing juxtaposition on a type of song I specialise in - railway songs.

Ewan McColl wrote new 'folk' songs for the pioneer BBC Radio Ballads as an arts and history project.   Dave Goulder wrote songs inspired by his life as a railway worker (on the footplate). I'm not ignoring other railway workers who have written songs about their work by the way (Don Bilston++). Are either set any more or less "proper Folk" songs?

The origins are different but both fit into the living folk tradition. ie perfectly acceptable in any folk club bar the most fundamentalist traditional (and dare I confuse things by adding the songs by a miriad of folk singers who have produced a diverse array of songs for 150 year anniversaries, local lines threatened by closure, lamenting the end of steam power and so on.... without Radio programme commissions or any relation to railways except as a passenger - just because they want to).

Ian Fyvie


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 11:34 PM

"To do so is to try to claim an unearned prestige for a song that has yet to prove itself."

I wish it were "prestige". Unfortunately "Folk music" is a four letter word to most people.

A song is a song. Nothing really makes a folk song more prestigious than any other song. Passing a test to fit a 1954 definition does not make a song any better or elevate it to a better place.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 01:30 AM

Perhaps not where you live, Ron. I think we live in different worlds and know people who are much different. Perhaps it's the difference between the East coast and the West coast.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 01:31 AM

Or travel in far different circles.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 03:18 AM

Am not going to have time to finish this – Sleima awaits, but will get as far as I can.

I thought that Howard Jones dealt with this quite fully but since SS continues to grasp at it as a lifebelt – here goes.

"No musical tradition has ever evolved without the process of oral transmission."
Other musical forms depend on oral tradition for their transmission, not for their evolution. Any type of song can retain its original identity without constant oral transmission; folk songs depend on their orality for their designation 'folk'.

"All musical traditions are thus shaped - from Hip-Hop to Free Jazz, from Karaoke......"
Links with the past or variation are in no way deciding factor with most forms of music. Originality, not continuity is often the aim of composers – and of the music industry. The pop industry depends on change for its existence and embraces and even manipulates those changes to sell its products. Selection by the community may be desirable for the continuance of all types of music, but it is in no way a deciding factor as to its form. A reggae number or an operatic aria will remain such whether a community takes it to it's heart or it is a bigger flop than Heaven's Gate – the community has no say whatever in what form the composition takes, that is entirely the decision of the composer and the performer.
On the other hand, acceptance of and adaptation by the community is a definitive factor of a folk song – if the folk reject it, it doesn't become a folk song – simple as that.

"Popular and art, literacy etc ……"
Folk is a process, not a style or form of composition. No matter how a song begins, be it written or orally composed (have several examples of the latter, particularly from the non-literate Travelling community – happy to expound another time) whether it becomes a folk song depends on it being taken up orally. If it isn't and it remains unchanged, as the man/lady said, 'it ain't a folk song.' Proof of this lies in the fact that, despite the strenuous efforts of many of SS's despised academics, the vast majority of folk songs continue to bear the 'Anon' stamp.
It is somewhat ironic that, up to relatively recently the totally non-literate Travelling communities were the last to cling on to their folk traditions. If you wanted to hear a 20 verse versions of Lamkin or The Maid and The Palmer or Tiftie's Annie or Young Hunting or The Battle of Harlaw……. you were far more likely to find them on your local gypsy site than anywhere else (apart from the rarefied atmosphere of the folk club).
Even among the literate communities, reading played only a small part in the continuance of the folk songs and ballads (again, stacks of field information on this which I am happy….. etc).
Ballad scholar David Buchan suggested that not only did print play little part in the transmission of the ballads, but it was possible that there were no set texts. He proposed that the ballad singers took the plot of the ballad and, with the aid of a repertoire of 'commonplaces and conventions, (milk-white steed, lily-white hand etc,) he/she re-composed the piece at each singing. While Buchan didn't make his case fully (IMO) it may account for the fact that many singers have told us that they were able to 'learn' a long ballad or narrative song at only two or three hearings. This was particularly true of blind Travelling woman, Mary Delaney, who had a large repertoire of such pieces. It was our practice to record her's, and others' 'big 'songs up to half-a-dozen times. We noticed that textually, she NEVER sang a song the same way twice.

"No music ever remains unchanged".
Doesn't it? Once a composer of a reggae number, a pop song, an operatic aria writes down or records his/her composition, it becomes fixed; a reference point to return to for a 'definitive version'. Any changes that take place after that are optional, not obligatory.
On the other hand, a folk song, because of its manner of composition (whatever that was) and its method of transmission, is subject to constant change – hence the 200 plus distinct versions of Barbara Allen, which was described by Pepys in the mid-seventeenth century as 'an old Scotch song'. Change and adaptation is a definitive factor in a folk song, not just a choice on the part of the performer.

Now, since I seem to have more time than I thought – an additional question.
As it stands at present, folk song proper lies in the public domain – it is the property of us all.
On the other hand a singer-songwriter piece comes into the world fully fledged with the owner's name stamped on its bum, (as well as a copyright label).
Folk songs, despite strenuous efforts on their part, lie beyond the predatory reach of P.R.S. and the Irish Musical Rights Organisation, while newly (or oldly) composed songs with known authorship, are subject to copyright laws and demand regular donations to the P.R.S. benevolent fund and other such 'charities'.
What do you re or non-definers propose should happen about this?
Should;
A.    All songs which are placed under the 'folk umbrella' by 'designated folk bodies' automatically be considered public property and fall into the public domain (wonder what Messers Dylan, Paxton and that nice Tom Bliss would have to say about that)?
B.    Should folk song proper discard its public domain right and bite the financial bullet?
C.    Or should we strive for a two-tier system (just like the National Health)?

Oh dear, was that the white rabbit with the pocket watch I just spotted – time to go I think
Catch y'all in a weeks time.

Incidentally, my 'twisted fantasies bullshit' came from 30 years plus fieldwork among traditional singers and is well verified by the easily accessible recordings at the BL – where did your information come from and where can I go to verify it? Have you ever ventured outside a folk club – surely you haven't gone to your despised 'academics' for it?

Bryan;
Sorry - want to respond but if I don't go soon I'll have to endure another wek of 60mph West Clare sea mist.

Jim Carroll

PS   Don't you just know that your opponent is running out of ammunition when he or she reverts to 'folk police' and 'finger-in-ear' and 'purist'?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 05:38 AM

Here's Bert Lloyd reverting to 'purist':

'the folk traditions have never been the fixed monolithic structures that some purists would have us believe. On the contrary, styles of folk music have constantly changed, down the ages, according to changes in the fate of the labouring people who carried that music. Folk-Art traditions do not stand still any more than fine-art traditions do, which is one reason why the romantic chasers of the "authentic" in folk song so often find themselves pursuing a will-o'-the- wisp.'


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 05:38 AM

"Respect the 1954, but, don't hammer us with it in a thought-police manner.
Folk gatherings need smiles ,warmth , community and enjoyment to brought back to them - not all this eternal backbiting and bickering."

As one who 'respects the 1954' I take issue with this. To insist on the validity of a scholarly,thoughtful and widely accepted definition is not to 'hammer' anyone - nor to 'police' them. Please note that people like me have no punitive powers whatsoever - nor would we wish to acquire them! And the real-lfe folk gatherings that I regularly attend have all the "smiles, warmth, community and enjoyment" that you could wish for. Most of the "eternal backbiting and bickering", as you put it, seems to occur on Mudcat. And IMO the reason it occurs on Mudcat is because certain people have a completely irrational desire to have the particular type(s) of music that they like labelled as 'folk music' (for reasons which mystify me). It also seems that because these people can't get the '1954 people' to agree with them they keep on asking the same silly questions over and over again - presumably until one of us cracks? I can't help noticing that this technique of asking the same questions repeatedly until a different answer is elicited is one used in interrogations - which leads me to ask: who is it really that has the punitive tendencies?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 06:36 AM

"widely accepted" ????

Oh boy.

There are also certain people who have a completely irrational desire to oppose the addition of any new (ie post 1900) songs to the folk canon (for reasons which don't mystify me) and who use an outdated and outmoded definition to further that end.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 06:54 AM

Don't you just know that your opponent is running out of ammunition when he or she reverts to 'folk police' and 'finger-in-ear' and 'purist'?

I am not an opponent. All I am trying to so here is to understand the nature of Folk Music with respect to what actually happens at festivals, in folk clubs, in forums etc. and how that relates to the 1954 Definition - the nebulousness of which remains simply because of the idealistic remove between those who came up with it and the music they were attempting to define. It might be said, therefore, that Folk Music requires an academic definition before it exists at all, which, according to the 1954 faithful, it doesn't. So the 1954 Definition accounts for an extinct phenomena - at least extinct according to a particular interpretation of the criteria. So the 1954 Definition effectively kills the very music it is attempting to define simply because it doesn't allow for its continuance. And yet, the evidence would suggest that Folk Music is alive and well...

Otherwise:

Other musical forms depend on oral tradition for their transmission, not for their evolution.

Transmission is evolution; it is in the very act of transmission that a music evolves. There can be no transmission without evolution. Oral Transmission is the fundamental way music is transmitted, received and evolved.

Links with the past or variation are in no way deciding factor with most forms of music. Originality, not continuity is often the aim of composers – and of the music industry.

Originality is founded on a reference to the past and a particular interpretation and understanding of that past. A pop song might be completely original in one sense, but it can only be said to be a pop song because of its traditional references and structures. This is true of all musical genres & conventions.

The pop industry depends on change for its existence and embraces and even manipulates those changes to sell its products.

A casual look at Myspace or YouTube will reveal countless extremely talented individuals and groups who are creating innovative pop music without selling anything. The pop industry does not manipulate change; change occurs as one generation of the musical community takes over from the other (which in terms of popular music can be a matter of months). Hip-Hop, Drum and Bass, etc. are forged in the white heat of communal musical experience and remain in a constant state of evolution.

A reggae number or an operatic aria will remain such whether a community takes it to it's heart or it is a bigger flop than Heaven's Gate – the community has no say whatever in what form the composition takes, that is entirely the decision of the composer and the performer.

A reggae number might be completely reconstructed by way of dub or else completely transformed by vigourously sampling thereafter. No two interpretations of an operatic aria are ever alike. Change is implicit in the experience and interpretation of the music; just as a record of Traditional Irish Music from 2009 will sound very different from one made 40 years earlier; so will a record of any given operatic aria.

On the other hand, acceptance of and adaptation by the community is a definitive factor of a folk song – if the folk reject it, it doesn't become a folk song – simple as that.

Who are The Folk Folk though? What makes them any different from the Pop Folk, or the Opera Folk, or the Country Folk? And surely such rejections occur all the time, whatever the Folk?

Folk is a process, not a style or form of composition.

I agree; but it is a process common to all musics.

No matter how a song begins, be it written or orally composed (have several examples of the latter, particularly from the non-literate Travelling community – happy to expound another time) whether it becomes a folk song depends on it being taken up orally.

Like a pop song being sung by our postman...

If it isn't and it remains unchanged, as the man/lady said, 'it ain't a folk song.'.

Change occurs all the time - it's an observable phenomenon of all music. And our postman might change a song beyond recognition...

Proof of this lies in the fact that, despite the strenuous efforts of many of SS's despised academics, the vast majority of folk songs continue to bear the 'Anon' stamp.

Sailor Ron's example of the Manchester Rambler is interesting in this respect; the variation came from someone who'd never heard the original, not yet of Ewan McColl. The song was only Anon as far as he was concerned.

It is somewhat ironic that, up to relatively recently the totally non-literate Travelling communities were the last to cling on to their folk traditions. If you wanted to hear a 20 verse versions of Lamkin or The Maid and The Palmer or Tiftie's Annie or Young Hunting or The Battle of Harlaw……. you were far more likely to find them on your local gypsy site than anywhere else (apart from the rarefied atmosphere of the folk club).

Fascinating stuff; but what does this tell us about the nature of those living traditions or else their value to the people who were so quick to forget them? What is more important here, the traditions or the people?

Even among the literate communities, reading played only a small part in the continuance of the folk songs and ballads (again, stacks of field information on this which I am happy….. etc).
Ballad scholar David Buchan suggested that not only did print play little part in the transmission of the ballads, but it was possible that there were no set texts. He proposed that the ballad singers took the plot of the ballad and, with the aid of a repertoire of 'commonplaces and conventions, (milk-white steed, lily-white hand etc,) he/she re-composed the piece at each singing. While Buchan didn't make his case fully (IMO) it may account for the fact that many singers have told us that they were able to 'learn' a long ballad or narrative song at only two or three hearings.


Such mastery is beyond dispute - but that could just as well be a description of a master Rapper free-styling or of Jazz Improvisation or the sort of roll a storyteller might find themselves on. Each is working within traditional frameworks and shaping the rest in real-time. DJs do this too; as do heavy-metal guitarists and classical continuo players.

This was particularly true of blind Travelling woman, Mary Delaney, who had a large repertoire of such pieces. It was our practice to record her's, and others' 'big 'songs up to half-a-dozen times. We noticed that textually, she NEVER sang a song the same way twice.

Jim - seriously, I'm drooling here; what I wouldn't give to have heard this woman!

Once a composer of a reggae number, a pop song, an operatic aria writes down or records his/her composition, it becomes fixed; a reference point to return to for a 'definitive version'. Any changes that take place after that are optional, not obligatory.

This isn't true; change is implicit in the nature of the beast. Even the original record is the product of an evolved and evolving musical process. The record can only be a document of a particular moment in time, after which the song goes on evolving - witness live versions of recorded songs, or other studio sessions, cover versions etc. There can be no such thing as a definitive version of anything. It's like Chopin piano music - all the notes are there, but each player will play it differently, and those nuances of interpretation will become part of a tradition of interpretation thereafter, if successful to The Community.

On the other hand, a folk song, because of its manner of composition (whatever that was) and its method of transmission, is subject to constant change – hence the 200 plus distinct versions of Barbara Allen, which was described by Pepys in the mid-seventeenth century as 'an old Scotch song'. Change and adaptation is a definitive factor in a folk song, not just a choice on the part of the performer.

I agree, but I don't see that as being any different from 200 plus distinct interpretations of any other song. All music is part of the same evolutionary process, and whilst we Traddies will delight in such evident diversity, it remains a somewhat rarefied delight; a specialism whereby any singer of Traditional Song must be, in part, an academic to appreciate such things in the first place. I'm a bit bi-polar in this respect; just as half on my wants the 1954 Definition to be true, the other half wants to question the very nature of that truth. If you read my blog The Liege, The Lief and The Traditional Folk Song you'll see what I mean.

As it stands at present, folk song proper lies in the public domain – it is the property of us all.
On the other hand a singer-songwriter piece comes into the world fully fledged with the owner's name stamped on its bum, (as well as a copyright label).


In practise, however, it would appear that one may sing anything one wants, even without bothering to mention the author even when one is known. Maybe this is how the traditional songs became Anon in the first place? Or is this another part of the Folk Process whereby, over time, the song becomes more important than the singer / composer?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:08 AM

"The song becomes more important than the singer"
Haven't got time for full response now but there's enough evidence from within a living tradition and one that only died within the memory of the singer we met, that the song has always been more important than the singer - have recorded songs that have been made up in the presence of the singer, who was totally unable to recall the maker and totally disinterested in doing so - it didn't seem important.
Mary Delaney can be heard on 'Voice of the People', 'From Puck To Appleby' and 'A Century of Song'.
Now I'm really off.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:11 AM

John P,
       Joni Mitchell wrote and sang "Big Yellow Taxi", a song concerned with environmental issues, relevant to many people at that time. Later Martin Carthy sang a song concerned with the Falklands war, also an issue relevant to many people at that time. There are songs being written and sung concerning contemporary issues, by numerous people , all the time. Surely, in those instances, do they not all come under the same "genre"?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 08:18 AM

Yes, John from Kemsing, the creation of the songs you mentioned is the continuation of a long tradition. Whether they stand the test of time, of course, is another matter.

The will o' the wisperers will say "Yes, of course they can become folk songs, how strange you asked. Look - it says so in the definition".

BUT (and here's the rub) the archaic oral process these songs have to undergo first, in order to satisfy the 'definition', are next to impossible nowadays due to advances in technology never dreamed about by the - now non-existent - IFMC back in 1954. And the will o' the wisperers know that perfectly well.

So, they will say YES, but actually they mean NO.

They'll tell you "You just want anything you happen to like to be called a folk song". What they mean is that they don't want anything they don't happen to like to be called a folk song. And that means just about anything 'new'.

Mercifully for all of us, it will be the generations of the future who will ultimately decide. And I have every faith in them.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 08:57 AM

Yes, it is harder for a modern composed song to evolve into a folk song, because of the existence of recorded versions. So what?

No one is saying that just because "Eleanor Rigby" can't be described as a folk song now that it couldn't be in 200 years time. That's what the folk process is - a song originates, and if it evolves and changes, it becomes a folk song. If it doesn't evolve, it's not a folk song. No more, no less. It's a description, not a value juegement.

Assuming that the folk process will continue, despite the difficulties, there can be no doubt that folk songs of 200 years hence will sound very different from those of today, just as the those of today are very different from 200 years ago. They may well include songs which originated from the works of Lennon/McCartney, Andrew Lloyd Webber or Oasis.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 09:23 AM

the archaic oral process these songs have to undergo first, in order to satisfy the 'definition', are next to impossible nowadays due to advances in technology never dreamed about by the - now non-existent - IFMC back in 1954.

Yes, this is what I've been saying all along. "Seeds of love" reached us by a different route from "Streets of London", and it's a route that is now very largely blocked off. That's not a value judgment, it's just history: it's a descriptive statement about the way stuff happens (or doesn't happen).

I don't understand why this is controversial, let alone why Sminky thinks it's some kind of elitist conspiracy. Is the problem with the phrase 'folk process' - shall we call it something else? The Snelgrove Process, let's say. While it's true that singers continue to sing, players continue to play, listeners continue to evaluate and no two renditions of the same song or tune will ever be quite alike*, in this age of mechanical reproduction these sources of variation can never have the same effect that they used to have. As a result, the Snelgrove Process has effectively ceased to operate, and may never be any more Snelgrove Songs.

There now - everyone who thinks it matters will know exactly what I'm talking about, everyone who thinks it doesn't will think I'm wittering on about nothing, and we can all agree to differ.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I'll go and start a Snelgrove Club.

*SS is right about this; it is a matter of degree, and to some** extent it is all folk music.
**More precisely, to a very, very limited extent.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 09:38 AM

"I think we live in different worlds and know people who are much different. Perhaps it's the difference between the East coast and the West coast."

I agree Don, and that is the beauty of music- it brings those worlds together or at least gives those wishing to look an insight. Traditional folk music has always done that for me, and contemporary folk shows us paths.

Earlier when I said that some people consider "folk" a four letter word, I was not talking about the folk community. It is the outside world that has a "Mighty Wind" image of what we are about. I believe it is also the bickering and judgemental nature that turns people off. I guess we continue to learn.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 09:50 AM

If the folk process has effectively "ceased to operate" as you say, Mr Radish, (and please don't get silly about the name) yet it remains part of the 1954 definition, then how can any 'new' songs become folk songs under said definition?

I'll go and start a Snelgrove Club

Best of luck with that.

If it doesn't evolve, it's not a folk song. No more, no less. It's a description, not a value juegement.

Sounds like a law to me.

So, Howard, where do people get to sing these songs so that they may "evolve and change"?

Folk (or Snelgrove) Clubs? Ha! Read some of the posts about that subject.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 09:55 AM

That's what the folk process is - a song originates, and if it evolves and changes, it becomes a folk song. If it doesn't evolve, it's not a folk song. No more, no less. It's a description, not a value juegement.

Traditional Songs are supposedly no longer changing and evolving; traddy purists (like me) get irked when someone, however so innocently, might sing Child Ballad #10 to the melody traditionally associated with Child Ballad #1 - and how many times do I sing Child #1 to be told I'm doing the wrong words? Maybe the irony is that Folk is too subjective ever to have an objective definition; and even a purist like me is not beyond coming up with my own tune for a traditional set of words even when the traditional melody is alive and well; and if there is no melody, I might extemporise one as I'm going along. How often do I hear that the melody to the Twa Corbies is traditional to that song? On the Songs of Witchcraft CD, someone even sets a poem by Robert Graves to the Traditional melody of the Twa Corbies. Does this really bother anyone? Or is this all part of The Folk Process too? Or is the Folk Process really so remote and archaic that it doesn't happen any more? Uber Traddy Peter Bellamy wrote his own tune to On Board a '98 because he didn't think traditional one was good enough for the words; this was the song he opened his shows with, and for an encore he'd do a Stones cover.

No one's trying to say anything that isn't true here; go through the Digital Tradition - there you'll find Traditional songs rubbing shoulders with Dylan songs, Alan Bell songs, Johnny Handle songs, Graham Miles songs, and Beatles songs. There too you'll find at least one uncredited Ron Baxter song (his parody of The Fields of Athenry) and any amount of other stuff, no doubt, which languishes uncredited and, by default, anonymous. Diverse as it all is, it's all gathered together in the name of Folk.

Despite my occasional tampering with melody, I sing 99% Traditional English Language Song. My reason for doing so is because there is a quality in such material I find nowhere else which I feel is entirely due to the extent such songs have been shaped and refined by the cultural and individual ingenuity and circumstance which some might call The Folk Process. Looking at the old Broadsides and Chapbooks however, I begin to wonder; maybe it's due to something entirely, but as happy as I am living in 2009, I like old stuff too, (even if I do sing it like a bad pop singer). Folk is a concept as much as it is a Construct; it might even be said to be a Conspiracy, but at the end of the day it's about what speaks to the individual singer and what s/he is moved to sing on their next visit to their local folk club, singaround or festival. It is their Folk Sensitivities that moves them to be there in the first place, and to have chosen a song with respect of that sensitivity, be it traditional or otherwise, but I'd say that ultimately, it is the Folk Sensitivity of the individual singer that makes any given song a Folk Song, be it a traditional ballad, a Christy Moore song, or their version of a Johnny Cash cover of a Nine Inch Nails song.

This is what I see happening in the clubs & festivals anyway; songs sung in the name of folk.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 10:19 AM

*SS is right about this; it is a matter of degree, and to some** extent it is all folk music.
**More precisely, to a very, very limited extent.


It's not a matter of degree at all, it's a matter of Traditional Songs and Folk Songs being two completely different things which is what all the available evidence suggests. What we really need here is what Wiki calls disambiguation - because according to you guys most of what happens in the name of folk these days isn't folk at all. Now that just can't be right - or can it?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 10:24 AM

How interesting that, because I favor a less-broad definition of the term "folk music", some folks seem to think I'm some sort of folk police. I've said it before and I'll say it again now: YOU SHOULD PLAY AND LISTEN TO WHATEVER KIND OF MUSIC YOU LIKE!!!! Clear enough? None of this is about what people should sing or listen to, what happens at folk festivals, whether or not a song is any good, or whether or not a singer has any value. It's about the definition of a word, nothing else. No real-world repercussions for anyone's music making or enjoyment.

As someone who has been accosted by the authenticity-snob folk police in real-world situations (like during performances), I would never tell anyone they were playing the wrong music or that they were playing it wrong. I play traditional music in a variety of non-traditional ways, and don't have any qualms about changing a melody, fixing the words, or playing it on whatever instruments come to hand.

I disagree that the folk process has stopped. I see it at work all around me all the time, in my playing and that of my friends. The only way it could stop is if we all listen to those who say that Child #10 (which Child #10?) should never be sung to the tune of Child #1 (which Child #1?). Of course it should be. If it works better for you to sing it that way, then do so.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 10:29 AM

A webmaster courted me nine months without fail
He fairly won my heart, sent me an email
With his laptop near to hand, types his notes so clever
And if I was with my love, I'd live forever.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 10:33 AM

Child #10 (which Child #10?) should never be sung to the tune of Child #1 (which Child #1?).

I mean, of course, those who sing The Cruel Sister to the Lay the Bent to the Bonny Broom melody & chorus, thus making a nonsense out the bawdy eroticism thereof, however so plaintive the melody. Is sloppy sourcing part of the Folk Process too I wonder? It might just well be after all!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 10:44 AM

I would say that sourcing isn't part of the folk process at all. That's academic ethnomusicology, more or less the opposite of what I experience as the folk process.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 11:04 AM

Strange news is come to town, strange news is winging
Strange news flies up and down about what he's singing
Some people just can't tell if its trad or folk song
But the learned ones who know say its all wrong!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 12:13 PM

hee hee hee

And where is my song gone, with its words so trad-like,
It has gone across the sea, to an American open mike,
I'm afraid the internet will set and fix its beauty,
And if it was my song, I'd do my duty.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 01:01 PM

"The will o' the wisperers will say "Yes, of course they can become folk songs, how strange you asked. Look - it says so in the definition".

BUT (and here's the rub) the archaic oral process these songs have to undergo first, in order to satisfy the 'definition', are next to impossible nowadays ..."

Yep. I agree with 'working Radish' you have summed it up very nicely, 'Sminky' - the fact that you don't like this conclusion is neither here nor there and shooting the messenger achieves nothing.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 01:31 PM

Shimrod - at least you have the courage to say there can be no 'new' folk songs.

However, pardon me if I say "over my rotting, maggot-ridden corpse there can't".

Some of us actually care about what we pass on to future generations. Pity you don't.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 01:33 PM

If the folk process has effectively "ceased to operate" as you say, Mr Radish, (and please don't get silly about the name) yet it remains part of the 1954 definition, then how can any 'new' songs become folk songs under said definition?

Effectively ceased to operate, more or less ceased to operate, ceased to operate except in a few areas - take your pick. There's room for a certain amount of optimism about contemporary songs going into the Snelgrove Process - just not very much.

where do people get to sing these songs so that they may "evolve and change"?

No, Sminky, not in Folk Clubs - the Snelgrove Process isn't going to get out of bed for a Folk Club. Where people sing with their workmates during the day and sing with their friends in the evening - ordinary people who wouldn't dream of going to a Folk Club - that's where the Snelgrove Process happens.

What's that, Skippy? Most people don't do that kind of thing any more? Well, stone me.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 03:24 PM

The IFMC still exist, the name has been changed. They do not tend to use the term "Folk Music, having long ago replaced it with "tradition music", and they lean more toward "Ethnomusicology" to describe their work.
International Council for Traditional Music


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 03:48 PM

Sminky, given to over-dramatisation, are you?



Nevertheless, watch my lips: it's not my fault!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 03:57 PM

I disagree that the folk process has stopped. I see it at work all around me all the time, in my playing and that of my friends.

I don't agree. Something happens every time someone plays a song a bit differently, and every time someone listens to a song played a bit differently and likes it - and, since it's hard to play a song without playing it a bit differently, that something happens quite a lot. But there's more to the folk process than variation, just as there's more to evolution than the occurrence of mutations. If lots of people are singing the same songs, and those songs survive 100 or 200 years without being written down or recorded, and in the process they sprout different variants, shed verses, acquire new verses, lose old tunes, gain new tunes - that's the folk process.

I'm not against new songs - I just don't believe they're folk songs. I'm not saying they won't become folk songs - I'm just saying I think it's very unlikely, because of the way society's changed in the last 200 years. Above all, I'm not saying I don't want there to be any new folk songs - I think it'd be great. I just don't think it's very likely.

As for the "Snelgrove Club", that was just my way of pointing out that the dispute over the word "folk" isn't going to go away*. Sure, we could all accept a situation where folk clubs host traditional music and just about anything else, but my experience of that setup is that you end up with not very much traditional music and a great deal of everything else.

*Although some contemporary singers refuse to go near it. For me the word "folk" has always meant traditional folk so for me the word "folk" doesn't describe what I do because I write pop songs, even though they're not very popular. - James Yorkston. (Maybe it's different in Scotland.)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 04:37 PM

The "dispute" over the meaning of the word folk is actually over, and has been for a long time--as mentioned above, researchers, academics, anthropologists, ethnomusicologists, have moved on and found other words, and definitions for what they do.

The word "Folk" has pretty much been left for people to use as they please--the discussions about definitions here are pretty much irrelevant to anything--


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 05:13 PM

M.Ted

The IFMC still exist, the name has been changed. They do not tend to use the term "Folk Music, having long ago replaced it with "tradition music", and they lean more toward "Ethnomusicology" to describe their work.
International Council for Traditional Music


Sorted.

The International Council for Folk Music has become the International Council for Traditional Music so the 1954 definition of folk music becomes the 1954 definition of traditional music.

There might be one or two people who need a little re-education though. From another thread - "For more than 30 years Mudcat's Dick Miles has been play and writing traditional music in England and Ireland."


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 05:47 PM

The IFMC still exist, the name has been changed. They do not tend to use the term "Folk Music, having long ago replaced it with "tradition music", and they lean more toward "Ethnomusicology" to describe their work.

So, there we have it - the International Council for Traditional Music. Maybe they got wise to the nebulosity of the the term Folk Music too. Their objective: to assist in the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music and dance, including folk, popular, classical, urban, and other genres, of all countries. One wonders how much credence they still give to the 1954 definition of Folk Music - after all, 55 years is a long for an academic theory to remain unchallenged. In the reactionary backwaters of the Folk Revival 55 years is just about long enough for it to become written in stone. Ethnomusicology is defined (by Carole Pegg) as the study of social and cultural aspects of music and dance in local and global contexts. I've known ethnomusicologists do their post-graduate research into everything from Gamelan of Java to the Barbour Shop Quartets of Teeside. I dare say, too, one might study the Folk Songs of amateur Folk Singers as practised in the Folk Clubs of Lancashire irrespective of whether or not what they're singing fits with some archaic criteria that to many here has such an absolute currency.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 06:03 PM

There might be one or two people who need a little re-education though. From another thread - "For more than 30 years Mudcat's Dick Miles has been play and writing traditional music in England and Ireland."
Snail,
he probably meant,playing traditional music and writing traditional sounding music,I am pleased he liked my music,that is all that matters as far as I am concerned.
it will not be the first time songs have been mistaken for traditional.
Bob Dylan is one person who has made this mistake on occasions.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 06:52 PM

M.Ted, thank you for this:

The "dispute" over the meaning of the word folk is actually over, and has been for a long time--as mentioned above, researchers, academics, anthropologists, ethnomusicologists, have moved on and found other words, and definitions for what they do.

The word "Folk" has pretty much been left for people to use as they please--the discussions about definitions here are pretty much irrelevant to anything--


I have said more than once in these threads that the work folk needs to be simply abandoned as something useful.

""Folk" as an adjective is almost completely worthless. Take any phrase that has it and remove the word "folk" and you'll find that the phrase still means exactly the same thing, without the excess verbiage."

I was with Sinister Supporter at the beginning of this, as I think his idea of "folk" being "anything designated as such" is basic common sense -- from a pragmatic, descriptivist perspective. Then he started to make what I see as an irrelevant (and inaccurate) division between "academics" and non-academics, in order to dismiss "academic" notions. Lost me there. The reason being, that, as M.Ted says, "academics" have questioned and argued over "folk" from all these perspectives, including the supposed non-academic perspective that S.S. advocates.

This is why I never use the word "folk" when I am trying to convey something precisely or trying to understand something truly. This is why, sorry to tell you Sinister S, true "academics" rarely use the word; it's very old fashioned-- consider that the Society for Ethnomusicology, ushering in a newer approach, was formed in 1955. Now, I may use the term, for convenience's sake, in those "designated contexts" where imprecision is desired or where mutual understanding is implicit (like Mudcat, for example).

In the first type of scenario, it is meaningless and excess verbiage. In the second case, not using "folk" could mean having to use excess. Isn't this the case with most words?

Use it or lose it. Words are functional.

Gibb


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:13 PM

Gibb - get over yourself and read my last post.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:21 PM

Sinister,

One wonders how much credence they still give to the 1954 definition of Folk Music - after all, 55 years is a long for an academic theory to remain unchallenged.

Yes! See, this is what has had me confused about some of your statements. Since it is such a long time, i.e. since common sense dictates that it probably would have been challenged many times, why have you preceded to characterize "academics" as if they adhered to 1950s ideas? Even if you were not aware that they had not, you'd have had reasonable doubt. I have been scratching my head, and I gave up on posting to these topics because the logic didn't make sense to me, because...The idea of "folk song" is decidedly not academic. Maybe all along you've meant "amateur academic," "crappy academic," "weekend academic," or "non-academic academic"?

I think what you really mean is "folk academic"!

I dare say, too, one might study the Folk Songs of amateur Folk Singers as practised in the Folk Clubs of Lancashire irrespective of whether or not what they're singing fits with some archaic criteria that to many here has such an absolute currency.

I dare say they have done that many times over. But the focus would be more on the cultural who? - what? - when? - why? of it, less than how it was labeled.

Gibb


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:25 PM

Gibb - get over yourself and read my last post.

!
My timing here is off (lots of typing/reading), but I eventually got there.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:35 PM

Gibb Sahib

I think what you really mean is "folk academic"!

No Sahib, he means "traditional academic".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:45 PM



he probably meant,playing traditional music and writing traditional sounding music

I can only go by what he said. I'll leave it to you to put him right.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:44 AM

Another serious organisation focused on research into 'traditional song' preferencing the term 'traditional' here, with some names I recognise:

TFS Website

TFS Yahoo Group


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 06:51 AM

Then he started to make what I see as an irrelevant (and inaccurate) division between "academics" and non-academics, in order to dismiss "academic" notions.

Maybe I did at that, Gibb - but the divisions are in no way irrelevant, nor yet are they inaccurate. On one hand you have the thing that is being studied, and on the other you have the academics who are studying it. The thing exists quite happily without the academics - as in the case of people singing and playing music as part of their day to day life without realising that what they're doing is Folk Music, or Traditional Music, or Ethnic Music. It's the academics who decide that - then they decide what Folk Music is (and by implication what it isn't), and so they come up with a set of criteria to determine that.

Such criteria however, is just a theory, just as The Folk Process is just a theory. As theories they remain fluid, but somehow they have been seized upon by the Folk Faithful who assume that because they have once enjoyed a degree of academic sanction that they must, therefore, be objectively true. Thus does a theory become a theology - a theology which accounts for much of the reactions we have seen in this thread, by the non-academic folk-faithful carrying the dead weight of redundant theory around with them as if it was fact if only to justify that what they're doing is, therefore, Real Folk Music. We used to see reasoning like that from WAV, who, for all his qualifications in the field of anthropology believed that the only way forward for humanity was the implementation of Ethnic Cleansing. I see similar ideas afoot here, where what is, after all, merely personal taste must be then be justified, indeed sanctified, with respect of what has become the Holy Law of the 1954 Definition - and woe betide the heretic who dares suggest otherwise.

It matters not to me whether the academics at the ICTM still abide by the 1954 Definition or still believe in the fairy tale that is The Folk Process. I used to believe in it myself until I realised there are other far more plausible ways to account for such things (such as individual creativity and vernacular variation, things which still occur, and will keep on occurring as long as people sing songs) - and that consequently once we remove The Folk Process, what we have come to think of as The Tradition might not actually exist beyond the imaginations of those who really, really want it to. Preciousness is all very well, but Fundamentalism is unforgivable. One thing in which there can be no dispute however, is that the music exists, likewise the songs, and what makes it Folk Music is the context in which it occurs and the individual singers and musicians who, whether they believe in the 1954 Definition or not, keep it very much alive simply because it suits them very nicely to do so.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 06:58 AM

PS -

Thanks for those links, Rosie.

Here's another which I'd say is the most important page any self respect Folky / Traddy should have bookmarked if they didn't already:

http://www.tradsong.org/link.html


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:16 AM

"Such criteria however, is just a theory, just as The Folk Process is just a theory. As theories they remain fluid, but somehow they have been seized upon by the Folk Faithful who assume that because they have once enjoyed a degree of academic sanction that they must, therefore, be objectively true. Thus does a theory become a theology - a theology which accounts for much of the reactions we have seen in this thread, by the non-academic folk-faithful carrying the dead weight of redundant theory around with them as if it was fact if only to justify that what they're doing is, therefore, Real Folk Music. We used to see reasoning like that from WAV, who, for all his qualifications in the field of anthropology believed that the only way forward for humanity was the implementation of Ethnic Cleansing. I see similar ideas afoot here, where what is, after all, merely personal taste must be then be justified, indeed sanctified, with respect of what has become the Holy Law of the 1954 Definition - and woe betide the heretic who dares suggest otherwise."

What utter specious nonsense!

As a scientist I know that all theories are provisional and can be replaced by alternative, more comprehensive theories with greater explanatory power. I have not, to date, seen any such comprehensive, alternative theory emerge from the Folk World. All I've encountered are Dave Harker's outrageous and mischievous proposition that the wicked Middle Classes stole the Workers' Music (a view endlessly expounded by WLD until he left this forum) and an endless stream of people who demand that 'experts' should admit their particular favourite form(s) of contemporary music to the Folk Canon - and, presumably, take some sort of responsibility for such decisions (?) To this latter group my view has always been - Go away, make your own decisions, and take responsibility for them!

As for bringing 'Ethnic Cleansing' and 'heretic hunting' into this discussion, that is really, really beneath contempt! Those of us who happen to believe that the 1954 definition has great explanatory power (in spite of its age - it is, in fact, younger than me!) have no desire to dictate what other people listen to and no power to enforce anything even if we wanted to. Disagreeing with an alternative point of view is NOT the same as heresy hunting.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:19 AM

Please don't bring WAVery into this. I put as much time and energy into trying to argue sense into that guy as anyone here.

what is, after all, merely personal taste must be then be justified, indeed sanctified, with respect of what has become the Holy Law of the 1954 Definition - and woe betide the heretic who dares suggest otherwise

What - or who - are you talking about? As some of us keep saying, "these things are different from those things" is not a value judgment.

the fairy tale that is The Folk Process. I used to believe in it myself until I realised there are other far more plausible ways to account for such things (such as individual creativity and vernacular variation, things which still occur, and will keep on occurring as long as people sing songs

Individual creativity and vernacular variation aren't an alternative explanation to the folk process - they're a central part of it. And yes, they still occur, but clean, unaltered reproduction of songs with their words and tune intact occurs a lot more. As I said above, there's more to the folk process than variation, just as there's more to evolution than the occurrence of mutations.

the music exists, likewise the songs, and what makes it Folk Music is the context in which it occurs

Is Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez folk music? I've heard it at a folk club.

Really, it comes down to one question: is it ever possible to listen to someone performing at a folk club or singaround and then say, "that was good but it's not what I'd call folk music"?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 08:49 AM

Hmmmm - Methinks I'll ignore Shimrod's post as being typical of the fundamentalist hysteria I've encountered on this thread thus far. I will, however, take issue with his calling my last post specious - nothing in the world is more specious that the 1954 Definition or yet its adoption as absolute by the Folk Faithful. As I've indicated here already, maybe WLD had a point after all...

Otherwise:   

As some of us keep saying, "these things are different from those things" is not a value judgment.

To say that a Folk Song can only be a Traditional Song is a value judgement; it is rejecting all the other music that occurs within a Folk Context as not being real Folk Music because it is judged not to be so by a set of (quite possibly specious) criteria. Accordingly, most of what will be heard at, say, The Fylde Folk Festival this year won't actually be Folk Music, and most of what will be heart at The Steamer Folk Club tonight won't actually be Folk Music. It also says that the 100% improvised music I play on folk instruments isn't Folk Music, nor yet is 97% of Kip of the Serenes by Dr Strangely Strange. How is that not a value judgement?   

Individual creativity and vernacular variation aren't an alternative explanation to the folk process - they're a central part of it.

Individual creativity and vernacular variation are an observable alternative to a theory which in no way can be subjected to any sort of empirical scrutiny. The evidence is circumstantial and the interpretation of that evidence as a Folk Process remains suspiciously (and quite possible speciously) convenient. Interestingly, I first came across the term in a sleeve-note by Roger Nicolson to his 1976 album Times and Traditions for Dulcimer thus: Almaine. Adapted from a piece based on a traditional dance form by Bartholomew Penkil (?-1670) in the Baltic Lute Book. The folk process continues...

I'm cool with that.      

Is Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez folk music? I've heard it at a folk club.

Me too, although not with the orchestra, which is perhaps a crucial factor in my accepting it as folk music in that context. As I've said elsewhere in other contexts it might be something else altogether, but when Folk play Music, in the name of Folk Music, then what else can it be other than Folk Music? This is my Folk as Flotsam theory by the way; anything that floats can be Flotsam - it is defined by context alone. Of course there might be those who insist that only articles accidentally discarded from a ship can be real Flotsam (and that those articles deliberately discarded are Jetsam) but for the purposes of us every day beach-combers, Flotsam is defined simply, and pragmatically, as something from elsewhere that has been fetched up by the sea - be it a fishing float from France, a For Sale sign from the Wirral, or a tree trunk from the Liffey. There is also a generality of understanding here; Folk Musicians and Singers in Folk Clubs and singarounds aren't professionals, they are hearty amateurs, very often non-musicians; non-musos certainly. Therefore much of the charm of actual folk music (its folk character if you will) lies in the evident and entirely corporeal shortfall between intention and result. It lies in the immediacy of its empirical realisation and experience thereof; it can never happen that way again. This is not to justify the GEFF conspiracy, just to recognise that some of us will never amount to anything more than bad pop singers. So - Come-All-Ye!   

Really, it comes down to one question: is it ever possible to listen to someone performing at a folk club or singaround and then say, "that was good but it's not what I'd call folk music"?

If that's the case you must ask yourself (as I have done many the time) why it wasn't folk music? And how it might have been folk music? And by what means a definition of Folk Music (even the 1954 Definition) might be vague enough to allow for the fact that it is, in fact, folk music?

*

This is an epiphany for me; I've emerged out of a crisis of the faith in which I very nearly rejected the whole idea of Folk Music simply because of the impossibility of the 1954 Definition and those who adheer to it. However, when I do THIS, I am doing Folk Music, Feral folk indeed; and in doing so, the folk process continues...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 10:52 AM

"Hmmmm - Methinks I'll ignore Shimrod's post as being typical of the fundamentalist hysteria I've encountered on this thread thus far..."

Fundamentalist hysteria! Talk about the 'pot calling the kettle black' - I would say that hurling around accusations of 'ethnic cleansing' and 'heretic hunting' is pretty hysterical! In what way was my post more 'hysterical' than yours, SS?

Your last post is a cowardly cop-out (and that is the most 'hysterical that I'm going to get). All of your posts seem to suggest that you possess some sort of moral superiority (not to mention esoteric knowledge) which allows you to summarily dismiss the opinions of others. You remind me of someone from my past whose main fault was that she wasn't very good at arguing. When she was losing an argument she would resort to the underhand tactic of saying, "I find your views to be offensive" - which crumbled all but the toughest of cookies.
Suggesting that the 1954 definition still has a lot going for it is, I insist, not any sort of 'moral failing' (I feel no guilt) but part of a stand against the 'anything goes in a folk club' brigade and their endless whining.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:03 PM

Hey, Shimrod. I'm sure we're all eternally grateful to you for your 'stand' against anything new being sung in folk clubs.

Be sure to let us all know if anyone has the temerity to ignore you, now won't you?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:16 PM

Endless whining..? and this from a member of the 1954 Brigade? It'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad. The answer is simpy, if you don't like what's going on the folk clubs, don't go..see how easy it is?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:19 PM

Depressingly, I find myself being able to see both sides of the argument.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:24 PM

Sinister Supporter: you can, of course, call anything you like folk music, and noone can stop you. And you can see a black and white striped horselike creature walking down the road, and call it a giraffe. Maybe it is, to you. Good luck. But I shall carry on calling it a zebra, because I find it convenient to do so. I have listened to the music you have posted as "folk" or "feral folk". Well, you call it folk. I don't. I can define what I call folk in terms of observable characteristics. Could you list the characteristics by which your posted music is defined as "folk"? Or, indeeed, "feral folk"?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Banjiman
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:25 PM

aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:26 PM

Spleen Cringe

Depressingly, I find myself being able to see both sides of the argument.

Really? I find myself disagreeing with both of them.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:28 PM

This thread courted me
twelve month or better
they fairly won my heart
e-mailed me a letter
with their mouse in their hand,
they look so clever,
and if I could be with my love
I would live forever.

- trad. arr. written 2009


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM

Greg Stephens: "I can define what I call folk in terms of observable characteristics."

Not being arsey or anything, but a lot of these discussions become confusing when we are discussing music - and there are no illustrations or examples.

In fact I posted a thread earlier which asked a very similar question (What is 'Folk Character'), though not many people responded. The 1954 definition refers to 'folk character', and similarly there has been mention here of Peter Bellamy's own use of the term 'Folk Idiom'. Yet I'm not sure I personally know what either of these terms actually mean!

So, how would you describe 'observable folk characteristics?'
Or indeed how would anyone else watching this thread for that matter..


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:52 PM

"Be sure to let us all know if anyone has the temerity to ignore you, now won't you?"

But they do ignore me - all the time! Sob, sob!!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:54 PM

I am not an accademic nor an ethnmusicologist, I am a lover of what I CALL FOLK MUSIC. What that is, is, at least to me, hard to define, so I'll fall back on a quote I heard many years ago. Q "What does an okapi look like? A. "It's hard to describe, but you'd know it if you saw it". In the same way I know what I regard as folk song when I hear it. As to the 54 definition, I can understand it, and to some degree agree with it, however times move on, and so do definitions [or should do]. I have no argument to the 54 definitiobn if it refers to 'traditional', but to cast songs, and music, composed in the 'folk idiom' into the outer darkness I find unacceptable. Lets face it, some of Kieth Marsden's songs were [are?] thought to be 'trad', Poverty Knock was believed to be, and how many times has John Connelly's Fiddler's Green been credited as {Irish} traditional. To me they are as 'folk' as The Outlandish Knight, not YET traditional but still 'folk'. Of course lots of stuff performed in folk clubs isn't, by any definition folk music [unless you go with the "...never heard a horse...."], and that I regret, but that says more about me that the perf


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:02 PM

Sleepy Rosie: a couple of the "observable characteristics" of folk music (using the term as a lot of longterm folk enthusiasts do) would be
1) Collectively owned
2) Collectively and successively modified over time.

I appreciate, of course, that a lot of people have totally different definitions of the word (see a million threads and books on the subject). Most of these other defintiions do nothing for me. eg defining stuff as folk because it is "played on folk insruments"(whatever they are), or "because it is played in folk clubs" or "because I like it" or "because I put it on youtube". These are all definitions which have been advocated here, but I find them uninformative and of no use to me. So, I don't use them.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:03 PM

Fundamentalist hysteria! Talk about the 'pot calling the kettle black' - I would say that hurling around accusations of 'ethnic cleansing' and 'heretic hunting' is pretty hysterical! In what way was my post more 'hysterical' than yours, SS?

I only mentioned Ethnic Cleansing and Heresy with respect of the cultural fundamentalism that invariably attends the 1954 Definition. Most folkies, it would seem, don't need a definition - it's something they love, and they do it & enjoy it accordingly. It being Folk Music, which, according to the 1954 Fundamentalists, probably isn't folk music at all - like Tommy Armstrong's Marla Hill Ducks, which I'll be singing tonight at the Steamer in Fleetwood.   

Your last post is a cowardly cop-out (and that is the most 'hysterical that I'm going to get).

Accepted. I was just trying to avoid another over long post whilst answering Pip's points with the attention they deserved.

All of your posts seem to suggest that you possess some sort of moral superiority (not to mention esoteric knowledge) which allows you to summarily dismiss the opinions of others.

A somewhat fundamentalist reaction to my particular heresy. I am not possessed of any moral superiority or esoteric knowledge, nor am I dismissing the opinions of others. What I am doing, however, is reporting on what I have seen & heard being done In the Name of Folk over the last 35 years and wondering how this may or may not relate to the 1954 Definition. I've done this by suggesting (and indeed demonstrating) that the 1954 Definition is so nebulous that it might well define any music, and is, therefore, well past its sell-by date. Once can't help but wonder if in changing their name the International Council for Traditional Music feel the same way, and, if so, they are aware of the somewhat cancerous legacy they have left us in the 1954 Definition which no longer fits the facts of Folk but sits as a tumour at its very heart. Benign or not, I think it's time we cut it out.      

You remind me of someone from my past whose main fault was that she wasn't very good at arguing. When she was losing an argument she would resort to the underhand tactic of saying, "I find your views to be offensive" - which crumbled all but the toughest of cookies.

A charming but irrelevant anecdote. I don't find any views to be offensive, and my central point, however so wayward at times in its delivery, is that Folk Music is Empirical rather than Theoretical and that we must, therefore, consider the facts over and above the somewhat antiquated theory.

Suggesting that the 1954 definition still has a lot going for it is, I insist, not any sort of 'moral failing' (I feel no guilt) but part of a stand against the 'anything goes in a folk club' brigade and their endless whining.

In my experience it is the 1954 Faithful who do the most whining; the AGIFC brigade just get on with what they do in the sure knowledge that what they're doing is Folk. They run Folk Clubs, Festivals, Fora, Singarounds, Magazines, Agencies; or else they do that amazing thing which is to actually turn up at Folk Club or singaround and sing a Folk Song, traditional, or otherwise. Like me, tonight, when I'll be singing the Tommy Armstrong song indicated above; in no way traditional (except the tune) but a Folk Song notwithstanding.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:03 PM

"Endless whining..? and this from a member of the 1954 Brigade? It'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad. The answer is simpy, if you don't like what's going on the folk clubs, don't go..see how easy it is?"

Reminds me of, "if you don't like it here, go back to where you came from!" Not a very enlightened attitude (now who's got the moral failings?).

Apart from that, I've been going to folk clubs for over 40 years (that's where I come from) and for all of that time there have been people who have wanted to replace the music sung or played there with the latest fads in popular music. I have always resisted those people because I go to folk clubs to hear traditional songs and tunes - if I want to listen to pop music I can get as much as I could possibly need by switching on the radio.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:40 PM

if I want to listen to pop music I can get as much as I could possibly need by switching on the radio.

Yeah but, if a Folk Singer sings a pop song in a Folk Club (as my wife does from time to time) then that becomes uniquely folk according the idiosyncratic characteristics of the singer. Dig? Hell, I've got a recording of Seamus Ennis singing Football Crazy, and what about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXAeL5qe5_o

I have listened to the music you have posted as "folk" or "feral folk". Well, you call it folk. I don't. I can define what I call folk in terms of observable characteristics. Could you list the characteristics by which your posted music is defined as "folk"? Or, indeeed, "feral folk"?

Mostly I call it folk because whilst it is 100% improvised it is nevertheless dependent on the structures, drones, modalities and rhythmic patterns of Indo-European traditional music which are hard-wired into my musical psyche and which must, as a consequence, emerge through the music however so obscure such considerations might first appear. Feral Folk is indicated by the wilderness such a music must, out of necessity, exist in; seeking back to well-springs (what the 1954 Definition calls rudimentary beginnings) of a music whilst at the same time looking forward.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:47 PM

But is this a folk song and is the singer a folk singer?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:52 PM

Depressingly, I find myself being able to see both sides of the argument.

Even more depressingly, so can I...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:56 PM

But is this a folk song and is the singer a folk singer?

This is an example of the transferability of Traditional Song; even Henry Purcell wasn't above setting traditional songs, and they don't suffer in an way because of it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:57 PM

"Yeah but, if a Folk Singer sings a pop song in a Folk Club . . . then that becomes uniquely folk according the idiosyncratic characteristics of the singer."

And if I'm a cabinet maker and I build a table, then that table becomes uniquely a cabinet according to the idiosyncratic characteristics of the cabinet maker(?)

A definition that can encompass just about anything is just about worthless.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:07 PM

A definition that can encompass just about anything is just about worthless.

Not if it reflects the reality of what is actually happening in Folk Music. How can that be worthless? I'm not advocating this - I'm telling it like it is!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:13 PM

"I call it folk because ... it is ... dependent on the structures, drones, modalities and rhythmic patterns of Indo-European traditional music"

I think an elaboration of *this* kind of answer was rather what I was hoping for when asking 'what is folk character'? Though I think I didn't ask the right question.

Perhaps I'd have been better off asking what are the identifiable *musical characteristics* of 'folk'?

Unfortunately for me to actually make sense of a decent answer in this vein, would probably require a far greater understanding of musical theory than I possess. Not to mention a long sit in a dictionary what has words like ethnomusicology in it...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:15 PM

Then maybe you need a different term. Traditional singers (or folk singers, or source singers) often made distinctions between older songs, 'family songs', etc. and newer material (music hall, vaudeville, tin pan alley, pop, etc.). Playing Nirvana on an acoustic guitar in a smokey pub doesn't make it Folk Music, even if you play Cobain's version of 'In the Pines'.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:53 PM

In The Pines (Black Girl) is variously described as country blues or blues, which is has been described as the folk music of The U.S.A.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 03:02 PM

Yes, I know. There are several threads on the song active right now. But my point should be clear enough.

And of course there are lots of different 'folk musics' in the US, but that's another topic.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 03:12 PM

"Reminds me of, "if you don't like it here, go back to where you came from!" Not a very enlightened attitude (now who's got the moral failings?)."

oops did I just rile up the politically correct. Too bad.*LOL*

I'm not so perfect as to not have "moral failings" (whatever that means)AND please don't equate what I said with the "go back where you came from" mentality. If I don't like something I'm certainly not going to torture myself listening to or watching itover and over, you know, once bitten twice shy and all that sort of stuff?

Michael I understand perfectly what you're saying. Personally I dislike Cobain's version of 'In the Pines, I find it a tad over wrought, but that's neither here nor there


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM

In the Pines??


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 03:47 PM

Yeah, 'In the Pines" AKA 'Black Girl' AKA 'The Longest Train' etc.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:09 PM

Here you go.

Don Firth

P. S. I used to do this song (learned from Leadbelly's Folkways recording of it), but got so much static from the PC folks that I dropped it. It seems that, since I am the wrong color, it was "not appropriate" for me to sing it.

Great song! Hearing it again, I may just re-up it and them as don't think I should sing it don't have to listen to me do it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:15 PM

AKA "Where did you sleep last night?"


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:19 PM

Known by various names by various people, but Leadbelly called it "Black Girl." Or so it was listed on his record.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:12 PM

The question is about trying to define what is and what is not acceptable in a "folk context". That is impossible - it depends on the folk club, the audience and the individual. Where I draw the line is probably different from where you draw it. To make things harder, it can shift according to circumstances - so an established performer of traditional songs throwing in a pop song as a light-hearted encore is more likely to get away with it than an unknown floor-singer who is trying to build his act around it.

I have had some great evenings at folk clubs listening to music which on paper I wouldn't think was "acceptable".

It's simply impossible to define where to draw the line.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:59 PM

fair play to PEARS, he ploughed on regardless,of the harmonies.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 06:10 PM

Are you in the right thread here, Cap'n? There is a discussion of harmonies for trad music elsewhere, were you thinking of that?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:08 PM

It also says that the 100% improvised music I play on folk instruments isn't Folk Music, nor yet is 97% of Kip of the Serenes by Dr Strangely Strange. How is that not a value judgement?

Not to me, it isn't. It would never have occurred to me to call either of those things folk music; I wouldn't have called them Motown, either. As far as I'm concerned, calling something 'folk' isn't a mark of approval, and it isn't anything to do with the quality of the performance. I've seen some gloriously individual, messily exuberant performances of contemporary songs, & some dull and 'professional' performances of traditional songs. So what? There's still a difference between the songs. (On the other hand, I have seen far more dull performances of contemporary songs - some of them seem to be written for a dull performance.) For as many as will is a brilliant LP; some of it's folk, some of it isn't. Rocket cottage is a mediocre LP; some of it's folk, some of it isn't. "Folk" isn't a value judgment.

Individual creativity and vernacular variation are an observable alternative to a theory which in no way can be subjected to any sort of empirical scrutiny.

The theory is based on the reality of individual creativity and vernacular variation - and it can't be observed because it's a theory about things that take a long time to happen.

People copy what they've heard; some of the time they get it wrong, or shift it around a bit, or add an extra bit. Performers have always done this to some extent, just as composers have always borrowed from one another's work to some extent. What's different about the folk process is that lots of people whose names we don't know are doing the copying and the altering - and, more importantly, that the songs get copied again, in those altered forms. And the same processes of individual creativity and vernacular variation happen again. Give it long enough and you end up with Seeds of Love/Let No Man Steal Your Thyme/When I Was In My Prime, and 20-odd versions of Child 10.

Ron:
I have no argument to the 54 definitiobn if it refers to 'traditional', but to cast songs, and music, composed in the 'folk idiom' into the outer darkness I find unacceptable.

Nobody's casting anything into the outer darkness! I'd be overjoyed if I could walk into J. Random Folk Club and hear either folksongs or songs in the general neighbourhood of folk. (Three or four people sang Ewan MacColl songs at the last mostly-trad singaround I went to, and I was one of them.) All I'm saying is that some songs are folk songs (whatever you do to them) and some aren't - and that a folk club where folk songs are the exception, not the rule, should probably call itself something less misleading.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:24 PM

Greg, Replying to the Snail


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:34 PM

Two comments on my singing, in my lifetime, that I treasure: One from Maud Karpeles. We had just met, and she had asked me to illustrate a longago lecture in NYC. She introduced me with: "And here is Jean Ritchie to sing the songs. She cannot be termed a folksinger, because she has been to college."

The other one from Alan Lomax, also to an audience, "Of course it's a folksong, because she's a folk."


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 05:34 AM

Guess what I'm listening to when I switch on the laptop this morning to check out Mudcat?? The Smithsonian Folkways CD of Ballads so exquisitely sung by a certain Jean Ritchie. It's one of those things I reach for after a rough night - a sweet salve to the very soul so it is. Although I didn't get to hear it until 2004, I see this was recorded in 1961 - the year, indeed, I was born. How cool is that?

She cannot be termed a folksinger, because she has been to college

Priceless.

And for those who don't know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IBuW1HA5x0


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,sPLEEN cRINGE
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 05:45 AM

Thanks for that link, Sin, absolutely wonderful. When you listen to something that haunting and beautiful, all these discussions start to feel somewhat irrelevant.

Nice to see there are so many enthusiasts of the godlike genius of Elmer P. Bleaty on this thread, too.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 05:48 AM

I hesitate to follow a post from the great Jean Ritchie (respect, Ma'am!)but her quotes from Maud Karpeles and Alan Lomax suggest that even the great and the good occasionally say things which are, to say the least, debatable!

I think that it needs to be re-stated (for the umpteenth time) that this is NOT about dictating to people about what they can or cannot sing or questioning people's taste(s) in music or in labelling types of music 'good' or 'bad'. It is really about whether Folk Music is a limited, definable genre or not. Some of us say that it is and believe that the 1954 definition is a good guide to the limits. Others are insistent that it isn't (limited and definable) and further insist that music that they like is Folk Music. The 'music-that-I-like-is-Folk-Music' brigade then go on to insist that the people in the first group drop their opinions and agree with, and endorse, their views. Naturally we are reluctant to do so and are subsequently accused of all sorts of wickedness (of being 'folk policemen', 'folk fascists', 'ethnic cleansers, 'heretic hunters' etc., etc.). This doesn't seem to me to be a very adult way of conducting a debate and it's high time that the 'music-that-I-like' brigade took responsibility for their own views and stopped insisting that other people support them; it might also prove useful if they got into the habit of thinking things through a bit more thoroughly.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 06:58 AM

Just to point out that the second long paragraph of my last post was not intended to be a comment on anything that 'kytrad' had said previously - it was just a continuation of the '1954' debate.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 07:14 AM

it might also prove useful if they got into the habit of thinking things through a bit more thoroughly.

Shimrod - to clarify, I'm not proposing anything that isn't there already. By its very usage Folk Music can no longer be contained by the 1954 Definition; even the International Folk Music Council (who came up with the 1954 Definition) have changed their name to the International Council for Traditional Music, their objectives being to further the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music, including folk, popular, classical and urban music, and dance of all countries. So - think that one through, if you will. Clinging on to the 1954 Definition is not only reactionary in the extreme, but counter-productive to the very nature of Folk Music itself which, one would would hope, is primarily about the Folk rather than the Music - Folk exploring their diverse specialisms and passions under the all-encompassing umbrella that Folk now must be - indeed, which Folk now is.

To insist upon the 1954 Definition is to dictate; worse, it is to accept the vaguest of theories as an absolute theology. As it stands, it might serve as a basic model to aid an initial understanding of Traditional songs and how they may (or may not) have come about, but the reality of Folk Music in 2009 is that Traditional Song is but one of many specialisms.

The 'music-that-I-like-is-Folk-Music' brigade then go on to insist that the people in the first group drop their opinions and agree with, and endorse, their views.

On the evidence of this thread I'd have to say the real music-that-I-like-is-Folk-Music are the 1954 faithful. Last night at The Steamer we had Kipling songs, Chanties, Bothy Ballads, Traditional English songs, Ron Baxter songs, Richard Thompson songs, Self written songs, Gillian Welch songs, Ivan McKeon songs, Debbie McClatchy songs, Traditional Irish songs, Droll Monologues, Norwegian Eventyr, Cyril Tawney songs - and all in the one cosy friendly space we call The Fleetwood Folk Club. We don't have any views, only an all encompassing need for the inclusivity that is Come-All-Ye!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 07:55 AM

Let's just take a step back from all the bickering for a moment. It happens every time and leads us nowhere.

Let us take a practical, longer-term view:

IF you believe folk music to be THIS (by whatever definition - right or wrong)

BUT public opinion (the folk) believes it to be THAT (by whatever definition - right or wrong)

THEN .....

....and your may supply your own answer.

But think very carefully of all the implications.

For example: the issue of funding is often raised in these debates as a reason for the need for the 1954 defintion. But who will the funders listen to in the future - you or everybody else?

I agree with Shimrod (yep, really) when he says that people need to start "thinking things through a bit more thoroughly". Because what he proposes entails taking on the rest of the world - and there is only ever going to be one winner in THAT contest.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 10:39 AM

Perhaps 'Sminky' has got us a little bit closer to what this debate is really all about - prevailing orthodoxy. We must bow to the weight of "Public Opinion". And these days Public Opinion tends to favour lowest common denominator pop music - and it is my observation that the musical horizons of Mr/Mrs/Ms Average extend no further than the latest, fashionable 'sounds'- and I can get those anywhere. As for "taking on the rest of the world" all great changes and reforms have come about because people have been prepared to do that. After all MacColl, Lloyd, Lomax etc. were taking on prevailing orthodoxy after the War - and look at the enduring legacy they left behind!

It is my belief (and it is not my attention to force anyone to believe what I believe - even if I could!) that if we remove the limits all we will get is a sort of 'lowest-common-denominator' mush (which will, incidentally, no longer be of any interest to me). I've been interested in Folk Music for over 40 years now and fashionable mush clubs have come and gone but it's the clubs which favour trad. song which have tended to endure.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 11:20 AM

"quotes from Maud Karpeles and Alan Lomax suggest that even the great and the good occasionally say things which are, to say the least, debatable!"

Naturally. It should also be recognized that a debate does not mean that one side is right and the other wrong.

"It is really about whether Folk Music is a limited, definable genre or not. Some of us say that it is and believe that the 1954 definition is a good guide to the limits. Others are insistent that it isn't (limited and definable) and further insist that music that they like is Folk Music. "

There are two HUGE assumptions in that statement, both of which tend to cloud the debate.

One assumption is the statement whether folk music is definable. I don't think anyone is arguing against a definition - the arguement is how that definition is interpreted.

The second assumption is that "music that they like is Folk Music". No one is making an assumuption that everything is folk music.

I think all these threads are filled with people talking over each other and not enough time spent trying to understand the other sides views.   There is more common ground than people wish to admit to.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 01:54 PM

Folk as Flotsam:

Fleetwood Beech, North Fylde, Lancashire, England, Friday March 27th 2009


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 03:14 PM

"Lowest common denominator"....??? Now there's a class ridden statement if ever I saw one, and 'e goes on at me for being 'unenlightened' HA!!!

I was going to throw a spanner, regarding the great hurdy-gurdy player, Nigel Eaton (he late of Blowzabella) playing for Loreena McKennit, and Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, but I won't *tee hee*


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 03:26 PM

The question wasn't "what music is acceptable at a folk club?", it asked for a definition of "folk music". Whilst I agree that the usage has gone far beyond "1954", I don't think it is possible to define it in this usage, particularly at the outer limits.

So far as I can see, there are no defining characteristics which can be applied to the wider usage. It seems to me to be fairly random what is accepted and what is not. Of course there are some modern songs which stylistically fit comfortably alongside traditional songs, but there are others which I've seen described as "folk" which seem to me to have absolutely nothing in common. It seems to depend as much on the credentials of the songwriter and/or performer as anything.

By way of an example, on the "BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2008" CD set there is a song, "Bricks", by Tuung. The song is not traditional, nor does it resemble a traditional song, and the style of performance is not what I would consider "folky". In my opinion it's not folk, and I'm bewildered why it's on the CD at all - it doesn't seem to tick any of the "folk" boxes. Clearly, in someone else's opnion (and I don't want to start another Smoothops-bashing debate!) it is folk.

The general public would probably describe songs by Ewan McColl or Cyril Tawney or Ralph McTell or early Dylan as "folk". I'm not so sure they would include Richard Thompson, although for most of us his his songs are probably acceptable in a folk club (I hope so, because I sing some of them). I very much doubt the general public would regard songs by the Beatles or Oasis or Nirvana as "folk", not even when performed in a folk style on acoustic guitar.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 03:51 PM

Rifleman: I was going to throw a spanner, regarding the great hurdy-gurdy player, Nigel Eaton (he late of Blowzabella) playing for Loreena McKennit

I don't give a monkey's who Nigel Eaton plays with or what he plays. If it sounds good, great. If it doesn't, too bad. If it's folk, it's folk. If it's not, it's not. Two completely separate questions.

Ron: I don't think anyone is arguing against a definition - the arguement is how that definition is interpreted.

I think the argument is what that definition is. Nobody's really advanced an alternative to 1954 other than "what gets played in folk clubs".

Having said that, I did like SS's comment -

Folk Musicians and Singers in Folk Clubs and singarounds aren't professionals, they are hearty amateurs, very often non-musicians; non-musos certainly. Therefore much of the charm of actual folk music (its folk character if you will) lies in the evident and entirely corporeal shortfall between intention and result. It lies in the immediacy of its empirical realisation and experience thereof; it can never happen that way again

That suggests it's not so much a matter of what gets played in folk clubs as of how it's played in folk clubs. And it's true that a song has to get its tie loosened and its hair messed up by that entirely corporeal shortfall between intention and result if it's ever going to become a folk song. So folk clubs - whatever kind of material you hear there - are one of the places where bits of the folk process can still operate, and that's worth celebrating in itself.

BUT (it's a big but)... there's still a difference between songs that have been marinated in the folk process for a couple of centuries and songs that get dunked in it every other Wednesday - not least because, in between times, I can always go away and find the correct words to a ballad or play a recording of Anne Briggs doing it properly. Not only that, but traditional songs almost invariably sound different from new ones - they tell different stories in different ways, they require a different kind of concentration from the singer and a different kind of attention from the audience. It's great to get up in front of other singers and sing something by Dylan or Neil Young or Morrissey in your own arrangement, or something you've just written yourself; it's great to do something that hasn't been done before, and it's even better when it goes down well. But if so much of that kind of 'folk character' comes in the front door that traditional songs go out the back - which is the case in the club nearest to me - then something's going wrong.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM

This reminds me of religious changes in the C16th when belief became an intellectual assent to a credo. If 1954 is a closed door it's pernicious nonsense. Folk cannot be academic, it's oxymoronic to believe it can, all top down definitions will fail a bottom up form.

But then I don't accept folk music is a museum piece any more than classical music died with the nineteenth century. The atomisation of humanity didn't end with the railway and he gramophone.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 04:50 PM

what I actually said was
"I was going to throw a spanner, regarding the great hurdy-gurdy player, Nigel Eaton (he late of Blowzabella) playing for Loreena McKennit, AND Robert Plant and Jimmy Page".

Of course the latter two definitely don't fit into the trad folk idiom, for which I am eternally grateful.

Folk music ain't a museum piece or yer grandmothers clock sitting on the mantlepiece, collecting dust, it's a living, vibrant, and, I hope, an ever evolving music.
You want museum pieces? Go the V & A.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 05:28 PM

" "Lowest common denominator"....??? Now there's a class ridden statement if ever I saw one,..."

So, so keen to identify moral failings, aren't you, Rifleman?

Why do you assume that this is a 'classist' statement? After all much popular music, these days, is a mass-produced 'product' to be passively consumed by people of all classes - and a huge percentage of them don't know any better because they've never experienced anything else. And this huge edifice of manufactured pop-pap is so monumental that it tends to overwhelm everything else. Also, let's face it, a huge majority of 'music consumers' don't have their own tastes at all but are completely under the influence of various 'arbiters of cool'.

I don't think that class comes into it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 06:57 PM

songs that have been marinated in the folk process for a couple of centuries

Oh how sweet the assumptions of the faithful!

Otherwise, I did this (images & music) today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EznkdwwOg0w

How folk is that?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 07:23 PM

I'm sorry, SS, but let me reorder the words a bit:

How is that folk?

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass. I'm just curious as to how that qualifies "folk." I'd put it in the category of "new age."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 07:32 PM

what I actually said was
"I was going to throw a spanner, regarding the great hurdy-gurdy player, Nigel Eaton (he late of Blowzabella) playing for Loreena McKennit, AND Robert Plant and Jimmy Page".


And what I actually said was that I don't give a monkey's who Nigel Eaton plays with or what he plays. If it sounds good, great. If it doesn't, too bad. If it's folk, it's folk. If it's not, it's not. Two completely separate questions.

Oh how sweet the assumptions of the faithful!

Again, you're mistaking me for someone else. 'Faithful' is denying that Bert Lloyd ever lied about his sources and claiming that the Blackleg Miner is 200 years old. I try to go by what we actually know, e.g. that Farewell my Dearest Dear was collected over 200 years after its first appearance on a broadside, or that Willie of Winsbury also answers to the name of Thomas (and to John from the Isle of Man). Something happened back there; I don't think there's anything mystical about saying that what happened was oral transmission with variation, i.e. the folk process.

How folk is that?

Is that a trick question? It's weird, striking, uncompromising, idiosyncratic, obstinately glitchy and pretty cool, but it's about as folk as Nelson's column.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 08:05 PM

Folk music ain't a museum piece or yer grandmothers clock sitting on the mantlepiece, collecting dust, it's a living, vibrant, and, I hope, an ever evolving music.
and can be found on football terraces.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 08:05 PM

I'd put it in the category of "new age."

New Age? You know, I think that hurts even more than Jim Carroll dismissing efforts at Traditional Balladry as bad pop singing.

Anyway, the music was realised by filtering & looping one of my rubber squeaky penguin toys as a real-time improvisation on my lap-top by way of an analogous folk process. One of the things we used to hear a lot on the old Harvest Home forum was that a lap-top computer was just as valid an instrument for folk music as a concertina. So here we have a single squeaky toy reed transfigured (beyond recognition) into the three elements of Traditional Folk Music (drone, rhythm and melody) to accompany the image of the bestial simulacra as found today on the beach. This sculpture was the the product of nature (sea & wind) rearranging various man-made artefacts (the seaweed notwithstanding) into something with string echoes of certain folkloric & ceremonial ritual masks. Also, I reckon a more extended version of this music would make an ideal accompaniment for a spirited rendering of Child #36. Also, for all us Darkly Wyrd Goth Trad Folk types in the UK, any such obvious a homage to Jonathan Miller's 1969 adaptation of Monty James's Oh Whistle and I'll Come to You My Lad is to honour that which is integral to the whole Folk Concept.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 08:34 PM

Well, I just looked at and listened to 'Fylde Coast, March 27th 2009' and I now know why you and I will never agree on an appropriate definition for Folk Music.

"Anyway, the music was realised by filtering & looping one of my rubber squeaky penguin toys as a real-time improvisation on my lap-top by way of an analogous folk process."

Sorry, but there is no 'folk process' - analogous or otherwise - involved in running random sounds through a computer program. Interesting, even mesmerizing, but not folk.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 08:36 PM

"One of the things we used to hear a lot on the old Harvest Home forum was that a lap-top computer was just as valid an instrument for folk music as a concertina."

Quite possibly, but that doesn't make any music made on a lap-top "folk", any more than any music played on a concertina is folk.

SS, apart from "drone, rhythm and melody", which are features of pretty much all music, not just folk, can you please explain what elements of your Fylde Beach track you consider qualify it to be "folk". Then we might understand your perspective.

Also, could you explain why it is so important to you that it should be described as "folk"?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 09:25 PM

Most of the traditions that preserved and transmitted the "traditional" music that we love , at least, the English speaking ones, are gone.

Mercifully, a lot of it was taken down, recorded, transcribed, and even better, a whole contingent of others have embraced it, learned it, tried to recreate the way it was performed, or tried to use it in more modern ways, or tried to make new things out of it, or tried to make new things like it.

For good or ill, folk/traditional/ethnic music got swept up into popular music for a period of time, and that created a tension amongst collectors, performers, listeners and fellow travellers that out lasted long after the last song fell off the pop charts.

After Jean Ritchie posted here most amusing introductions above, I pushed a couple buttons and listened to the Edna and Jean Ritchie version of The Four Marys, followed by Alameda Riddle, and then by everyone who was posted to YouTube. It was entertaining, educational, and ocassionally electrifying.

My point is that everybody showed a different aspect of the song, from traditional ballad to ersatz pop tune, to quasi-historical document, to an excercise in midi programming, to feminist tract, to just plain fun.   

I could have found a principled objection to each one, from "sterile museum relic" to "rip-off of the folk art of the people", to "academic self-indugence" to "mass-produced 'product'--but the fact is that each, had an integrity of its own, and I wouldn't give up the experience of having heard all of them for anything.

The reason that this song survived is because it speaks to different people in different ways over time. That's why there are a lot of different, and sometimes incompatible ways to look at it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Betsy
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 09:49 PM

Were all discussing this matter through a medium, (on this Internet thread ), which could never ever been conceived during my childhood ,teenage, or young adulthood .
The whole story has moved on , and so must we, and the music we love.
Criticise people for not sticking to the 1954 definition , and you shackle people .
It was a honest definition generated some 50 years ago - since then, people have landed on the moon , many unbelievable things have been invented happened and evolved .
Keep the music simple and entertaining - WE all know what Folk music is, (in our own individual minds so stop beating ourselves up, and enjoy the good bits , and forget about the indifferent bits .


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 03:55 AM

Amen


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Peace
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 03:57 AM

Amen to your Amen.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:29 AM

The fly in 1954s ointment is nostalgia. Attribute authenticity because you can't trust people to trust their ears. Bunkum. My ears are fully functioning folk-o-meters.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:53 AM

Sorry, but there is no 'folk process' - analogous or otherwise - involved in running random sounds through a computer program. Interesting, even mesmerizing, but not folk.

In selecting a sound by editing & sampling (so hardly random) and treating this via Ableton Live (not so much a computer programme as a way of life with a tradition & community all of its own) I am, in terms of the 1954 Definition, evolving a music from rudimentary beginnings and re-fashioning and re-creating that music (with respect of the community) to give it its folk character. Otherwise, see my response to Don's New Age comment.

Also, could you explain why it is so important to you that it should be described as "folk"?

I am a Trad / Folk Artist - a storyteller in essence - working with both primal & contemporary technology and all points in between. What interests me is the availability of that technology and how that might be considered with respect of Trad. or Folk Arts. Can photography ever be a Folk Art? What about film making? Or sound? Certainly there emerges a Folk Character with respect of the sorts of things people can do with these available technologies, and, much as we might accept (say) quilting, knitting, sour-dough modelling and macramé as being Folk Arts - crafts if you like - I feel computers enable another level of creativity which remains very much Folk in terms of its humanity, creativity, collectivity, and availability. It also allows for a very essential idiosyncrasy which, I feel, is Folk by default - the realm of the outsider in terms of any given establishment. I don't see myself quite as an outsider - I get paid very handsomely & pride myself on providing a reliable & professional service - but to lose sight of the actual nature of any given Folk Art with respect the human creative genius (that idiosyncratic spark which is common to all!) is to miss the point rather.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 05:47 AM

Sorry, Sinister, but I only see an individual there, not a community. Even if lots of people are involved in the computer program, there is only one person involved in developing the music. The 1954 definition's use of the 'evolution' and 'community' seem to be quite different to the way you are using the words.

There was a comment above - way above - saying that classical music for example is also a fresh interpretation each time. This ties in to me with the idea of generations and also what I understand by 'evolution'. In classical music, the written form we can call generation 0 (G0). Normally, each interpretation is based on that, so (almost) every performance is G1. Occasionally, a movement will be dropped and this will become established, or similar variation become the norm, so you get to G2, i.e. an interpretation based on a G1 version, not G0 directly. Getting to G3 and G4 is rare in classical music. For 'evolution' in the 1954 sense, G4 and much higher generation numbers are common. Singer-songwriter material is in this evolutionary sense closer to classical music in that people try to stay close to the G0 version.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 06:01 AM

SS, your argument appears to be that you're a "folk artist" so anything you produce will be "folk". But how can you be considered a "folk artist" unless you're playing folk? This is another circular argument, just like your earlier position that anything played in a "folk context" is therefore folk, when a "folk context" can only mean somewhere folk music is played.

You can call it what you like, but it doesn't help us either to define "folk music" or to stablish what is acceptable in folk clubs (which is a slightly different question).


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 06:42 AM

Thanks, DMcG - well put.

What I've been saying is that folk music is music that's come through - that's been preserved without being written down, by people other than the original writer/performer, and developed & changed in the process.

I don't think there's any such thing as "folk character", "folk style" or a "folk performance".

I don't think "folk" is a value judgment.

I don't think folk songs are 'museum pieces', or that they have to be sung in a certain style, or accompanied on certain instruments. Folk songs have survived this far - they can take whatever we throw at them now. Jim Moray's Lord Bateman (arranged in 5:4 for keyboard & beatbox) is as "1954" as any other version of the song.

I don't think that people like me saying that the 1954 definition makes sense is going to stop everyone in the world using "folk" to mean, er... whatever it is that they're using it to mean. I do think it's a point of view worth expressing - and, frankly, one that's held by more people than I thought at the start of this thread.

"Is" and "ought" are never that far apart; if you talk about how the world is, you're usually also saying that you like it that way, or else that you'd like it to change. (Unless you're a geologist.) I think we can all agree, by this stage, that in practice the word "folk" means anything and nothing. The disagreement is about whether we think that's a good thing or a bad thing.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 07:28 AM

Even if lots of people are involved in the computer program, there is only one person involved in developing the music.

Just like there is only one person involved in singing an unaccompanied traditional folk song you mean? When I say Community and Tradition with respect to Ableton Live, I mean the community of musicians who use Ableton as a tool for music creation & production. Indeed, Ableton themselves describe Live as an instrument, and just like any other instrument, there will emerge techniques and conventions readily identifiable as part of its character which is defined by traditional & communal usage.

The 1954 definition's use of the 'evolution' and 'community' seem to be quite different to the way you are using the words.

The 1954 Definition is wholly redundant and inadequate to reflect the actual usage of the term Folk Music in 2009 - in other words the reality of folk in the light of which even the IFMC have change their name. I wonder - how many folkies does it take to change a light bulb? Maybe back in the day the 1954 Definition was illuminating, but it's long since popped. By all means go sing a song about good it was, but until you replace the bulb you're blundering about in the fecking dark.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 10:16 AM

No one is disagreeing that the term "folk music" has widened to mean more than "traditional music". The trouble is, what it has come to mean is so nebulous that it is meaningless. Everyone has different ideas what it encompasses. For me SS's Fylde Beach offering doesn't tick any "folk" boxes, but for him it clearly does - who is to say either of us is right?

I don't think SS's claims that his music is folk because he is a folk artist, or that folk music is what is performed in folk clubs, are helpful because they are circular arguments. Also, there is stuff performed in folk clubs which quite clearly is not folk music.

The one thing we can say with confidence is that traditional music is folk music. The problem lies with the other stuff. What shared characteristics does the other stuff have which enable us to recognise it as a genre?

By definition, we're talking about composed music. It seems to depend in part on whether the composer or performer has "folk" credentials (whatever that means). So Richard Thompson is OK, Lennon/McCartney aren't.

Instrumentation is no help. Traditional folk is performed unaccompanied, with accepted "folk" instruments such as guitar or concertina, with electric or electronic instruments, or with an orchestra. Performing a traditional song in a non-folky way doesn't make it any less of a traditional song, so why should performing a composed song in a folky way necessarily make it "folk"?

And yet, having said that, a folky style of performance is one of the things which makes a song acceptable in a folk club, at least to me. But it still doesn't make it folk: "Lola" isn't a folk song just because Swan Arcade sang it in folk-style harmony in folk clubs, "Sweet Georgia Brown" isn't just because Hobson & Lees played jazz guitar duets in folk clubs.

None of this brings us any closer to a definition. The best I can do is to say that I have my own idea of what "folk" is, but I recognise that it may not be the same as yours, and it's certainly not the same as Sinister Supporter's.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 12:09 PM

Precise definitions are important for the commodification of a music but not necessarily for its dissemination. Many people buying an album of a mainstream artist like Kate Rusby would be pressed to tell the difference between one of her own compositions and traditional material.

If the delivery, instrumentation and style are identical one has to ask what this quantitive difference is? Taxonomists create theoretical divides that have nothing to do with aural reception. 1954 is a comfortable framework for those who seek (un)certainty in their musical provenance but tells us little about folkishness and (IMO) has contributed to the the form becoming a hobby - and a hobbyhorse - that's light years away from its origins.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 12:14 PM

"Why do you assume that this is a 'classist' statement? After all much popular music, these days, is a mass-produced 'product' to be passively consumed by people of all classes - and a huge percentage of them don't know any better because they've never experienced anything else. And this huge edifice of manufactured pop-pap is so monumental that it tends to overwhelm everything else. Also, let's face it, a huge majority of 'music consumers' don't have their own tastes at all but are completely under the influence of various 'arbiters of cool'

None of which is really any of your business. People will choose to listen what they want to listen to, regardless of who suggests what and to whom. Face it, "folk" music is a minority taste and always will be, I personally don't see the masses being converted anytime soon. Good God! then folk would become "popular" music and the 'arbiters of (folk) cool' would be telling people what to listen to.

*wanders off singing Will The Circle Be Unbroken*


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 01:08 PM

If the delivery, instrumentation and style are identical one has to ask what this quantitive difference is?

I'll answer that one by echoing Howard:

Traditional folk is performed unaccompanied, with accepted "folk" instruments such as guitar or concertina, with electric or electronic instruments, or with an orchestra. Performing a traditional song in a non-folky way doesn't make it any less of a traditional song, so why should performing a composed song in a folky way necessarily make it "folk"?

Personally I'm not talking about what individual pieces of music sound like. Unaccompanied folk, acoustic guitar folk, concertina folk, laptop folk, drum and bass folk, string quartet folk, death metal folk - it's all folk music if the song is a folksong to begin with. And if not, not.

If you're not an enthusiast for traditional music (and you sound fairly dismissive of the idea of being an enthusiast), then you probably aren't bothered about how much traditional music people are able to hear. I am, and I would really like to hear more folksongs in folk clubs. There are lots of acoustic clubs and singer-songwriter clubs and open mic clubs where folk music is treated as just another speciality, and a slightly quaint one at that ("and here's Pip, who I expect will give us something traditional"). I don't object to those clubs - I've been at some great nights of assorted vernacular creativity and artistic imperfection. But I do object to being told that a completely undefined and open-ended mishmash of material, from Dylan to Rudyard Kipling to free improv, is in some mysterious way the definition of folk.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 01:10 PM

"In selecting a sound by editing & sampling (so hardly random) and treating this via Ableton Live (not so much a computer programme as a way of life with a tradition & community all of its own) I am, in terms of the 1954 Definition, evolving a music from rudimentary beginnings and re-fashioning and re-creating that music (with respect of the community) to give it its folk character."

A rubber ducky? OK, maybe I should have said 'found sounds' - is that terminology still current?

". . . not so much a computer programme as a way of life with a tradition & community all of its own . . ."

A way of life? Good grief. But where is the 'folk process' at work upon your composition? Do you mean this as a metaphor? Because I honestly do not understand what you mean. Traditions take time to develop, the folk process takes time. It's not something you put together in a afternoon with a rubber ducky and a laptop.

Here's an idea: Early 20th century fiddle music in North America used repetition of commonly known melodies, floating lyrics, drone notes, etc. Musicians would 'sample' bits and pieces of popular tunes and work them into new compositions. Similar principles are used in the production of contemporary 21st century dance music. Therefore, Fiddle Music is Techno. Right?

Your definition of Folk, as I understand it, follows a similar logic.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 02:12 PM

"If you're not an enthusiast for traditional music (and you sound fairly dismissive of the idea of being an enthusiast), then you probably aren't bothered about how much traditional music people are able to hear. I am."

FWIW almost all the 'folk' music in my collection is authentic traditional music, much of it older recordings.
It has almost nothing to do with folk club and leather tankard hobbyist end of the 'scene'. I bought it because I like the way it sounds, not for actual or spurious reasons of authenticity. I dig simple, straightforward music with limited or non-existent production values. Those preferences inevitably put folk music in my sights.

I think you can tell contemporary music that is folk that may - or more likely may well not not be played in traditional modes or instrumentation, by its intentions but a listener has to trust their ears.

I doubt the atomisation of communities prior to the industrial revolution or mass transport or recording leant their music anything wholly exclusive - at least I've never heard any regional form that wasn't at least half some other form - so I'm forced to conclude those divisions are arbitrary. And if form is notional, then why not other accrued values?

One of the problems (for me) with clubs is performers and bookers believe singer-songwriting that resembles traditional styles will be acceptable to its audience. I'd be more well disposed to SS's loops and digital sequences if it had genuine folkish marks than new writing in old styles if it was merely pastiche. It relies on being able to tell and I'm afraid that requires discrimination and - dare I say it - knowledge and taste.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 02:12 PM

"Face it, "folk" music is a minority taste and always will be, I personally don't see the masses being converted anytime soon."

Rifleman, I've already faced it! Converting the masses has never been any part of my agenda (where did I say that it was?). Actually, I rather like the fact that folk music is a minority taste - I've never been keen on crowds and I can't really see any disadvantages.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 02:15 PM

By all means go sing a song about good it was,
ummm....
The Ballad of '54
In 1954 We Had It So Good (non-folk song)

oh and I came across this in something I was reading

Why is a critic like a eunuch in harem?

He sees sex every day, he knows what sex is, he knows how the sex act is performed, but he can't do it himself.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 05:15 PM

A way of life? Good grief. But where is the 'folk process' at work upon your composition? Do you mean this as a metaphor? Because I honestly do not understand what you mean. Traditions take time to develop, the folk process takes time. It's not something you put together in a afternoon with a rubber ducky and a laptop.

It was a rubber penguin not a duck.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 05:26 PM

"But I do object to being told that a completely undefined and open-ended mishmash of material, from Dylan to Rudyard Kipling to free improv, is in some mysterious way the definition of folk. "

We kinda understood that several hundred posts ago. The reality is, no one gives a flying fuck about your opinion, my opinion, or any opinion that has been posted here. The reality is reality.   You have an issue with the music that is being presented in clubs, so what do you do about it besides posting here? What are you trying to do to promote the music that you excited about? (If you think that you are more of an "enthusiast" than those that disagree with your opinions, you are living in a fantasy!)

This issue is not going away if we call it "folk". Let's just say that we all agree with the 1954 definition. Laws are passed that forbid the signing of Richard Thompson whenever the word "folk" is on a banner. Do you honestly think that agreeing on a definition is going to change interests and tastes?

If you want a REAL folk song - you sing it. Some punter on a stage is making music to entertain,perhaps educate, and hopefully to enjoy the experience of making music.   Folk music can be found in a community brought together in song. The application is just as important a part of the definition as the content.

Traditional music is not going to die out. There will be an interest, and the great work that many of you have done to preserve it is a treasure that people of my generation and younger generations can look to with deep respect and sincere thanks. You cannot alter the way the world spins no matter how many threads are started and opinions shared.

As I said in my first post in this thread - the topic is only going to create flames - and judging from all these posts, my thought came true.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 05:30 PM

Somewhat further back, I concluded that this thread, similar to some others like it, was degenerating into a series of hissy-fits and was going nowhere. Yet, miraculously, it seems to have developed into a fairly reasonable exchange of viewpoints.

My record and CD collection consists pretty much of the same sort of thing as yours, glueman. Mostly traditional songs (songs I have always thought of as "folk songs"), some sung by traditional singers such as Jean Ritchie, many sung by non-traditional singers (urban-born, not raised in a folk singing tradition or community) who sing traditional songs, some in a more or less traditional manner, others (like Richard Dyer-Bennet) not so. But traditional—folk—songs nonetheless.

However a folk song began, whether written by a professional composer (such as an ancient troubadour or minstrel who made his living writing songs to sing) or a couple of guys sitting in an ale house making up new verses to a well-known tune, it doesn't become a "folk song" until it acquires certain characteristics that come only from being learned and sung by other people, and being gradually modified through conscious or unconscious "editing." This takes time, and it also requires that a sufficient number of people over, perhaps, a number of generations, like the song enough to learn it, sing it, and pass it on to others.

One of my grandfathers was a shoemaker. I have the hammer he used all his life. The wooden handle is polished from decades of use, and there are indentations worn in the handle by his thumb and fingers. The essential characteristic of a genuine folk song is that it have this kind of polish and wear from being used over a period of time, and in the case of a folk song, by many hands.

That is the intrinsic quality that a song must gradually acquire before it becomes a folk song. And it is this intrinsic quality that I referred to above as "prestige." Now, whether anyone recognizes this prestige or not makes no difference to the song. And since this is an intrinsic quality, it has nothing to do with who sings it or how or where it is sung. A folk song sung by an operatic baritone from a concert house stage and accompanied by a piano or symphony orchestra is still a folk song. And the words and tune to "The Anvil Chorus" from Giuseppe Verdi's Il Trovatore, whether you are singing it a folk club or in your own back yard while chopping firewood, is not a folk song.

It is this "prestige" or intrinsic quality that someone is trying to claim when he or she announces that "this is a folk song" that they have just written. It is not a folk song. It's fresh from the factory, right out of the box, and has not yet acquired any of the polish and wear that comes from the kind of usage that makes a song a folk song.

Now, this is not a qualitative judgment. The folk song in question many be a really dorky song—such as "Billy Magee Magaw," a degenerated form of "The Three Ravens" (Child #26), which, in Thomas Ravenscroft's 1611 collection, Melismata, is well-constructed, poetic, and haunting. Traditional songs and ballads can degenerate into doggerel in this manner—through the folk process, which does not always improve a song. Yet, it's still a folk song.

The newly composed song may sound like a folk song, be really well-constructed, expressing emotions that resonate with just about everyone who hears it, or that tells a really gripping story that rings true, while, at the same time, is set to an interesting and memorable tune. It may inspire may people to want to learn it and sing it. In short, it may be a really great song.

But—it is not yet a folk song.

Now, I don't derive this viewpoint form the 1954 definition, but from years of association with folk music, much reading on the subject, and many conversations with folklorists, ethnomusicologists, and singers of this kind of material, some of whom have been raised in the tradition and many who have not.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 06:04 PM

I don't think anyone is going to question anything you say with respect of Traditional song, Don. Folk song, however, is in no way synonymous with Traditional song, rather, Folk song is an umbrella term for many types of songs, including Traditional, which occur in a designated folk context, such as a Folk Club, Folk Festival, Folk Radio Show etc. This isn't a matter of opinion, but a matter of observable fact.

Great post though!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 06:19 PM

no one gives a flying fuck about your opinion, my opinion, or any opinion that has been posted here

On the basis that "no one" includes you, Ron, I'm slightly hurt. Then again, on the understanding that "no one" includes me, I don't have to pay any attention to your opinion - so never mind.

Still. Just between us Mudcatters, in the full awareness that hardly anyone outside the hallowed virtual precincts of this site gives a damn, what do you think the definition of 'folk' is? Or do you think it's better left undefined? It's just that it seems to me (just between us Mudcatters, etc) that leaving it undefined has had deleterious consequences, particularly in terms of limiting people's exposure to traditional music. You may not be an enthusiast for traditional music, in which case you won't necessarily think that's a problem, but I am and I do. Obviously the opinion of one keyboard-bashing traddie isn't going to change the world, but I think it's worth expressing - just between us Mudcatters, you understand, and in the full awareness that hardly anyone outside the hallowed virtual precincts of this site gives a damn.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 06:29 PM

It's just that it seems to me... that leaving it undefined has had deleterious consequences, particularly in terms of limiting people's exposure to traditional music.

You're beginning to sound like WAV, Pip.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 06:32 PM

This isn't a matter of opinion, but a matter of observable fact.

I refer the learned gentleman to my earlier squawk:

""Is" and "ought" are never that far apart; if you talk about how the world is, you're usually also saying that you like it that way, or else that you'd like it to change. (Unless you're a geologist.) I think we can all agree, by this stage, that in practice the word "folk" means anything and nothing. The disagreement is about whether we think that's a good thing or a bad thing."


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 07:03 PM

The disagreement is about whether we think that's a good thing or a bad thing.

It matters not what our personal tastes might be, or yet our specialisms; we get on with that regardless and bring that to the pot. The important thing is the sense of unity we find in the Folk Scene as a whole which comes through the mutual appreciation of the diversity which is essential to the very nature of Folk. You know - this sort of thing:

Matt Armour - When the Saints go Marching In

Matt's legacy is the human warmth of inclusivity. His singarounds were legendary in this respect - a utopia of perfect belonging & community regardless of whatever stripe of folk you were.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 07:42 PM

"It was a rubber penguin not a duck."

My apologies.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Betsy
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 09:07 PM

I don't have a CD player, but I have loads of CD's which people have sent me, because they have recorded my songs. All of them sing (as I understand) the songs better than I do ,(or did) so let's all think about what we're saying on this thread, because,the music and song come come first.If there is no fun in folk music - I want to be out of it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 09:51 PM

". . . no fun in folk music?"

Betsy, I've had a lot of fun in folk music, and even made my living at singing songs--traditional, or "folk" songs--for a goodly portion of my life. And I don't write songs at all. I know several hundred tradtional songs, and rummaging through various collections of traditional songs, I have found more really good songs than I can possibly learn in several lifetimes. Fun? You bet!!

Maybe you don't really like folk music.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 11:57 PM

"I have found more really good songs than I can possibly learn in several lifetimes."

And we keep finding "new"ones, or at least, ones that are new to us all the time.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 03:34 AM

It's hard not to feel slightly sorry for those who insist on 1954 accreditation. It reminds me of old Harley owners who insisted Japanese V-twins lacked something because they didn't shake themselves and their rider to pieces, or Bentley owners who turn a blind eye to the fact they lured their chief designer from Skoda.

It isn't hard to understand why someone would want to label traditional music but it's impossible to comprehend why they'd marshall their musical preferences around it. Hobbyists are harmless enough but they're curators at best and you wouldn't necessarily want a museum keeper as a musical guide.

Folk enthusiasts have a balanced view to 1954, generally speaking. When the gate keepers bolted the door they went ahead and fitted a perfectly usable entrance round the side. So we're down to labels and badges and by and large, labels are only important to people who like labels.
My acoustic tastes fit the traditional pretty well but not exclusively and I don't need kite marks to know what's folkish.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 04:49 AM

SS - don't ever, ever, compare me to WAV. Ever.

It's hard not to feel slightly sorry for those who insist on 1954 accreditation.

Word to the wise - it's probably a good idea not to say that kind of thing in front of the people you're talking about. It makes you look a bit of a dick.

My acoustic tastes fit the traditional pretty well but not exclusively and I don't need kite marks to know what's folkish.

My acoustic tastes fit the traditional pretty well but not exclusively, and I'm happy to say that not everything I like is folk. Now who's marshalling their tastes around a label?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 05:05 AM

It's a point of view in the light of what I listen to and read here. I never got snippy or used the word dick. I stay out of folk clubs because while I might like the music, they may contain people who are snippy and use the word dick about those who disagree with them.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 06:08 AM

SS - don't ever, ever, compare me to WAV. Ever.

Sorry about that - a tad below the belt I admit. In my defence, I was thinking of WAV at his most Quixotic; boldly tilting at those flailing windmills of folk generality that obscured his vision of a properly traditional music as defined by a similarly redundant and essentially divisive criteria to that of the 1954 Definition.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 06:35 AM

"...a similarly redundant and essentially divisive criteria to that of the 1954 Definition."

Aye.
It's a queer thing that yer always come away from traditional music feeling better but leave talking to people about traditional music feeling worse and like you've just had your pocket picked.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 07:06 AM

It's dawned on me that perhaps the problem here is an assumption that only "folk" can legitimately be performed in a "folk context". It is demonstrable fact that a far wider range of music than simply traditional folk is performed in these places, and so there seems to be a desire to label all of this as "folk" in order to bring it into the fold.

I am quite happy to accept that in a folk club you can expect to hear more than traditional folk. I've sat in folk clubs and listened to, and enjoyed, music hall songs and monologues, Django-style jazz guitar, singer-songwriters, comedians, and Les Barker's poetry - none of which I would consider "folk" but none of which felt out of place in that context. The question is, where do you draw the line? The answer to that depends not only on your personal preferences but also on the preferences of the audience and the musical policy of the club.

If you want to have a club or singaround where people can do their versions of chart hits, I'm the last person to stop you - but I share the view of those who've suggested that if this makes up the majority of what is performed then perhaps it shouldn't be called a "folk" club.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 07:10 AM

It's a queer thing that yer always come away from traditional music feeling better

At least we can agree on that.

As I said above, when I started going to the local singaround I'd been going to a folk club for five years on a pretty regular basis (sometimes weekly). In that time I'd had some great nights (and some mediocre ones), but I'd never heard Ranzo or Jones's Ale or Thousands or more. (I knew Thousands or more because I'd heard the Coppers do it on telly. Never heard the other two.) I like traditional music & I'd like to hear more of it - and I'd like more people to have more chances to hear more of it. Folk clubs seem like a good place to start.

On the other hand, SS has got something...

The important thing is the sense of unity we find in the Folk Scene as a whole which comes through the mutual appreciation of the diversity which is essential to the very nature of Folk. You know - this sort of thing:

Yes, I'll drink to that sort of thing.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 08:52 AM

A few random thoughts in this rather silly thread -

What is the definition of a "folk context"?

perhaps it shouldn't be called a "folk" club

Perhaps not but there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. In analogy with the tins of soup, read the the small print, the mnufacturers name, the list of ingredients and additives. If you're still not sure, give it a try and if you don't like it try a different one next time.

An interesting anecdote from the excellent evening with Tom McConville, Claire Mann and David Newey last night (see separate thread) at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club last night, a young woman we had never seen before did a floor spot and said "I'm sorry, but I don't know any traditional songs but here's one by John Martyn." and then sang Spencer the Rover. Make of that what you will.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 11:10 AM

"It isn't hard to understand why someone would want to label traditional music but it's impossible to comprehend why they'd marshall their musical preferences around it."

I've read this sentence several times, Glueman, but I don't really understand it. Does it mean that you don't particularly like traditional music so you can't understand why anyone else does? If that's the case, why are you here? Would you really like to replace it with something that you find more acceptable?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Darowyn
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 12:01 PM

People have been dismissive of the idea of an Ableton community- but it does exist.
Somewhere about two generations away from most Mudcatters, there is an Ableton community. Groups of young musicians spend a lot of time swapping and sharing loops and tracks, and building evolved works of considerable complexity.
Have a listen to my former student- Snakeman- especially the track called "Colourblind Cafe"
You can find the track here:
Snakeman's Myspace Page
In the context of the internet age, the process is similar to the folk process, as the piece changes and incorporates the contributions of many people.
I'm not saying it's folk music in the English traditional stylistic sense, but its creation has a lot in common. Listen and you will see my definition of World music in action too.
This is not a live recording- it has been assembled from samples recorded separately-even the ambience is flown in from the Motorway services on the M5!
Everyone on this track is an former student of mine, except the guitarist, who was a colleague.
I'm really proud to have worked with them.
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 01:13 PM

"I've read this sentence several times, Glueman, but I don't really understand it."

In the the Mudcat world 1954 definitions exercise some people because they believe they lend traditional music something 'more'. More what is the question.
More authenticity? More quality? More bangs for your buck? I've no idea because I can't hear the difference. If I have to look up in a book whether a piece is original or a pastiche it doesn't matter, I've already left the aural dimension music occupies. So it's of interest only to people who are interested in non-musical factors.

Fans are fully entitled to like Bolivian jula julas or lyrics containing a plethora of consonants, that's their business. What they aren't entitled to do (IMO) is dictate where the boundaries of folk are in musical terms.
The reality is an unhealthy number of folk enthusiasts believe this dubious historical verissimilitude translates into something they can hear and it informs their tastes. Well sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, I certainly wouldn't rely on it and yet many people seem to think folk is what-they-like musically which is completely illogical.

The problem may well be in the club rather than folk. I enjoy traditional music as a consumer but participatory folk music that isn't progressive seems a complete absurdity.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 01:47 PM

Darowyn/Dave--I listened and I loved it!

I also think that this Ableton business, while, it seems to have little to do with folk clubs, folk festivals, and such things, is of great importance to those of the anthropological/ethnomusicological bent who study "the folk process", and, even as we speak, there are probably a number of people who are studying it.

Also, the guitarist was great--


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 01:58 PM

"...the sense of unity we find in the Folk Scene..."

That's that irony thing, right?

And who the hell is WAV?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 02:00 PM

More authenticity? More quality? More bangs for your buck? I've no idea because I can't hear the difference.

I'm fairly pragmatic about this, actually. I know from experience that traditional music is likely to interest me and that singer-songwriter work is likely to bore me. Some traditional performances are arse-achingly boring, and some singer-songwriters are stunning, but (for me) the balance of interest vs boredom is mostly the other way round. As far as I'm concerned, an awful lot of traditional material has something - does something - which only a little contemporary material does. So I don't think throwing open the doors to contemporary material is likely to result in a more interesting evening.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 02:54 PM

I agree, Pip.

". . . an awful lot of traditional material has something - does something - which only a little contemporary material does."

One of the major things that attracted me to traditional songs in the first place is that these songs have a history, a provenance—roots. Singing them gives me a sense of connection with the people and events that produced them in the first place and then sang them for their own enjoyment and expression.

I do sing other songs, some very good songs that are not traditional, but the majority of the songs I sing are traditional. And, no, I don't sing them merely because they are traditional.

####

Perhaps I don't even have a horse in this particular race. Out here on the west coast of the U. S. and A., I've never been to an English folk club, but the impression of them that I get from reading various threads here on Mudcat is that I probably wouldn't like them all that much.

First, there was a discussion of some clubs prohibiting, or at least frowning fiercely upon anyone who sang a song that wasn't from his or her own culture and background. For example, if you're from Cornwall, don't sing a song from Yorkshire. If you're an American dropping in, sing American songs, even if you're especially interested in songs from the British Isles and that's what you're there to learn. And God help you if you try to sing in an accent or dialect not your own, even if you do it well enough that most people can't tell that it isn't your own.

Rules, regulations, restrictions, prohibitions.

Then there is the war over the "infamous" 1954 definition. Apparently, in a "folk club," no two people can agree on what "folk" means. And in some "folk clubs," one rarely if ever hears a song that might actually fit the 1954 definition, in preference to a mix of songs that the singers themselves have just written (and declared "folk" songs) along with the latest popular hits liberally mixed with Beatles' songs.

In the one, you stand there in a straitjacket with a sock in your mouth, afraid that you'll have the buttons cut from your uniform and be marched around the compound in disgrace if you pick the wrong song to sing, and in the other, the club is as shapeless as Odo, the security officer in Star Trek:   Deep Space 9, a shape-shifter who has to sleep in a bucket or he'll simply flow down the nearest drain.

I've never been to the British Isles. I would love to go for a whole variety of reasons. But if my reading on the folk clubs (derived from what has been written in these threads by people on the scene) is correct, I would undoubtedly visit just to see for myself, but if they are, indeed, as described here, I probably wouldn't hang around very long.

Okay, folks, rip me to shreds.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 03:12 PM

'Maybe you don't really like folk music.'

'Does it mean that you don't particularly like traditional music.'

variations on the stock answer from the pro 54 crowd to anyone who even remotly dares criticise or disagree with the '1954 definition'


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 03:53 PM

You might need more compelling logic than an indefinable something before anyone gets to ringfence music definitions for the rest of us. My background is not a folk club so bad authentic singers and competent inauthentic ones go right over my head.

I buy traditional music I like, consume, purchase in the market place, attend festivals if there's someone I especially want to hear but as far from a back room creation of the good old days as it's possible to imagine.
Where do we devourers of songs go when the clubs don't serve our requirements for folk?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 03:57 PM

That's that irony thing, right?

Not in the slightest.

And who the hell is WAV?

Perhaps the Definitive WAV Thread


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 04:34 PM

Don Firth

I've never been to an English folk club, but the impression of them that I get from reading various threads here on Mudcat is that I probably wouldn't like them all that much.

Actually, Don, I think you would like the ones that I know very much indeed. They are populated by people who value and love the traditional music of the British Isles while recognising the quality of music from other parts of the world; Judy and Dennis Cook did a floorspot at The Lewes Arms Folk Club last night.

The campaign about how awful UK folk clubs are seems to be lead by people who remember how bad it was thirty years ago and have rarely been in a folk club since. The scene they describe bears no resemblance to the scene I know in the 21st century.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 05:53 PM

"I've never been to the British Isles. I would love to go for a whole variety of reasons. But if my reading on the folk clubs (derived from what has been written in these threads by people on the scene) is correct, I would undoubtedly visit just to see for myself, but if they are, indeed, as described here, I probably wouldn't hang around very long."

Don, I assure you that you would be very welcome!

As for these slightly ridiculous 'definition' threads, I have a feeling that they are partly to do with our very British reserve. We all attend folk clubs, and all applaud each other very politely, but inside we're all ABSOLUTELY SEETHING - and have been for years. You see this conflict has very deep roots, some of which, I suspect involve the personality and politics of Ewan MacColl (he may have been dead for 20 years but some people have never got over him - even some of us fans).
The other problem, I believe, is related to the nature of British folk clubs 30 or 40 years ago. At that time folk clubs were very popular and provided an easily accessible platform. Certain artists and agents, who couldn't get platforms elsewhere, began to colonise the clubs and some people became alarmed at this and began to fear that the music that they liked to listen to in the clubs (i.e. traditional folk music) was being displaced by a mish mash of singer-song writers, comedians, guitar heroes, pop-based material etc., etc. When some of us protested (usually in a very mild-mannered, typically British fashion) we were accused of being 'folk policemen', 'folk fascists'etc., etc. Since then our folk clubs have become polarised between clubs which have a traditional policy and others where 'anything goes'(and whose members and organisers, I suspect, don't really like folk music).
Even now any hint from people like me that folk music might be a definable and limited genre is met with howls of outrage and hysterical, and completely baseless, accusations of authoritarianism. In actual fact I've never heard anyone dictate to anyone in an actual folk club what they can or can't sing - and I've been attending British folk clubs for over 40 years. I'm sure that lots of wild anecdotes, about being beaten with rubber truncheons for singing a Bob Dylan song at the Singers' Club in 1968, will follow - complete bullshit, of course.

In conclusion just ignore our silly arguments and come on over. In my experience American guests are very well received.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 06:18 PM

You might need more compelling logic than an indefinable something before anyone gets to ringfence music definitions for the rest of us.

On the contrary, I think the fact that a definition which was formulated 55 years ago - some time before I was born - works for me now, in the sense of being a reasonably good guide to music I enjoy, is a very good reason to retain it. It's not a value judgment, just a suggestion that one thing is not like another thing.

The campaign about how awful UK folk clubs are seems to be lead by people who remember how bad it was thirty years ago and have rarely been in a folk club since. The scene they describe bears no resemblance to the scene I know in the 21st century.

For what it's worth, my main point of reference is a folk club that was founded less than ten years ago, and pitched towards singer-songwriters right from the off (the MC sings his own stuff, which is mostly in a C&W style; very good stuff, incidentally, but quite a long way from trad). I haven't been back much recently, but the last time I went it was packed to the rafters - so many performers that we were down to one song each - and I reckon about 1 song in 10 was traditional. Not all singer-songwriter stuff - some Beatles, some Radiohead, some George Formby. It was a good night in its way - certainly never a dull moment.

Snail, it sounds as if the "anything goes in a folk club" problem* - like the "can't be bothered to learn" problem - isn't one that your club encounters much. Maybe when Jim gets back from his hols we can restart this discussion on an Asking Bryan How He Does It thread. Or maybe not.

*Yes, I realise not everyone thinks it's a problem. Not everyone's typing this comment.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 06:31 PM

I've never heard anyone dictate to anyone in an actual folk club what they can or can't sing

See also this thread.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Nick
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 07:48 PM

Don

I'm sure that if you went to some places your worst concerns would be realised but most of the places you'd find in the part of the world I frequent I think you'd enjoy. Most places I go have a bunch of people who enjoy song, enjoy the company of others and enjoy sharing songs and music. From what I can see that's what you do too so I don't think even the fact we speak different languages would make too much of a problem.

I hope you make it one day. Let us know and I'd sure we'd make you welcome.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 08:33 PM

Don Firth

You would have liked tonight's (technically yesterday's...) Brighton SIngers' Folk Club singaround.    see: myspace.com/fyviesfolk   

Visiting us tonight - a harmony band singing traditional English folk songs - and the average age of the band well under 50! Lots of hope for the future I'd say.

Last December, another of our local singers' club sessions (Brighton Cellarfolk) booked a brilliant 5 piece harmony band from 30 miles along the coast. Again people come together from outside the folk scene "establishment' to enjoy our rich unaccompanied harmony folk heritage - taking it to wider and younger audiences.

Slightly off thread but...... if you're worried about what you might have read about the folk scene in England, don't be. It is, as it always has been, extremely diverse. Websites make it easier than ever to find what you might like and what might not be to your taste.

My highly personal opinion is that traditional English folk is on the up. My examples above show people a lot younger than me taking a keen interest in traditional folk.

Disagreement in my experience of mudcat debates seems to be between the camp that sees Folk as the consumer product - all else is inferior/not valid; and those who prefer folk as it should be- folk sharing folk songs. It's nothing new, indeed some say it goes back to the indignation the commercialised (albeit 'not-for-profit' commercialised) folk scene had for Ewan McColl and his London based Singers' Club of the 1960's.

Folk has survived this antagonism for 40+ years and mudcat will also show you that both SIngers' Clubs and Concert Clubs are all doing reasonably well and should have no problem surviving the likely depression.

Ian Fyvie


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:56 AM

Thanks for posting that link to the Aug/Sept 08 thread, Pip. Not a lot of evidence there for 'folk police'.

I was amused by the anecdote of the woman at a singaround who insisted on using a taped backing track. I once encountered a woman whose performance consisted of playing a tape of herself!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:46 AM

It's dawned on me that perhaps the problem here is an assumption that only "folk" can legitimately be performed in a "folk context". It is demonstrable fact that a far wider range of music than simply traditional folk is performed in these places

That is the very crux of what this thread is about - Folk Music and Traditional Music are not synonymous.

and so there seems to be a desire to label all of this as "folk" in order to bring it into the fold.

Not to bring into the fold as just, just recognise what happens in a folk context as folk music, irrespective of genre. Folk music isn't about genre, its about context. I think, perhaps, that this has always been the case.

The question is, where do you draw the line?

There is no line. This is an evidence based music, strictly empirical. Folk Music is what Folk Music does.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:41 AM

SS hits a bullseye again.

Folk isn't being threatened by drippy singer-songwriter birds who want to replace identikit folk chicks doing authentic material, but by artificially constructed and out of date barriers.
I like traditional material too, and I certainly don't need anyone wafting a piece of paper to validate it. There is indeed, no line.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:13 AM

Pip Radish

For what it's worth, my main point of reference is a folk club that was founded less than ten years ago .... the last time I went it was packed to the rafters .... certainly never a dull moment.

So what's your problem? The fact that it calls itself a folk club but doesn't do folk music to the 1954 definition? Tough. There is nothing you can do about it. If you enjoy going there, enjoy it for what it is. If you don't, go somewhere else. If there isn't anywhere else, get together with a few like minded friends and start something. As you said, the character of that club is defined by the chap who runs it. Go thou and do likewise.

Asking Bryan How He Does It thread

Not He, They. We have a large group of residents all of whom care about what they do. I'm not saying we're superstars but some of us are pretty good. By our own attitude and the sort of guests we book we create an atmosphere and a culture which is self reinforcing.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: mark gregory
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:40 AM

For a long time folklorists were loath to recognise that folk songs don't have to be rural, anonymous, unaffected by print or records or radio ...

I was just reading the NYT obit for Archie Green and came across this:

"Mr. Green, a shipwright and carpenter by trade, drew on a childhood enthusiasm for cowboy songs and a devotion to the union movement to construct a singular academic career. Returning to college at 40, he began studying what he called laborlore: the work songs, slang, craft techniques and tales that helped to define the trade unions and create a sense of group identity.

"He countered the prevailing, somewhat romantic notion that folklore was isolated in remote, marginal groups," said Simon Bronner, who teaches folklore at Pennsylvania State University. "He showed that each of us, in our own work lives, have a folklore that we not only perform but that we need."

I think folklorists like Archie Green and before him George Korson, A.L.Lloyd, Ben Botkin, Alan Lomax, with their interest in the folklore of industrial workers - Industrial Folk Song - pushed the reach of folk song a long way beyond the 1954 definition.

However the search for a watertight definition of folk music remains as seemingly unreachable. Some suggest we abandon the term and talk instead about vernacular song or poplore. I think we just have to put up with folk music as a workable if evolving concept. As Charles Seeger put it "the folk have changed and their music has changed with them"


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:50 AM

There is nothing you can do about it. If you enjoy going there, enjoy it for what it is.

I'm slightly puzzled by this response. Obviously there's nothing I can do about it (other than encouraging traddies to go along in large numbers). I was just pointing out that your experience isn't universal, and that the people being critical of actual existing FCs aren't all people who remember how bad it was thirty years ago and have rarely been in a folk club since.

Anyway, what goes on at the local FC doesn't bother me personally - I know where to find the kind of stuff I want to find. I'm more concerned about people in the same position I was six years ago, wandering along to their first FC and thinking "Hey, people singing whatever they like in whatever style they like, and not bothering too much about practising or getting it right! This folk stuff is a good laugh!" It is a good laugh, but an evening of traditional music is something else. FCs where anything goes are a lousy gateway drug - they don't do nearly enough to get people on to the hard stuff.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:33 AM

Years ago when I was studying for an MA the tutor was keen on primitive Swedish cinema, Russian silents and the problematics of the French nouvelle vague. Anyone wanting to examine Carry On films, or Hammer schlock or look at tv ads seriously met resistance which was in the end, snobbery.

Now I enjoy a Victor Sjostrom silent or Nikolai Larin as much as the next man but the faculties for criticism and pleasure are the same for both. The folk argument is stuck at the same stage of cod purity dressed up as taste. Folk has never had its reformation.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 08:21 AM

Pip, please go abck and read my post of 29 Mar 09 - 04:34 PM. You are attacking me for things I haven't said.

What I meant you couldn't do anything about was the fact that the club you describe calls itself a folk club. The 1954 definition isn't binding in law.

FCs where anything goes are a lousy gateway drug - they don't do nearly enough to get people on to the hard stuff.

Why should they? You said that it was "pitched towards singer-songwriters right from the off". Why should they be obliged to promote traditional music any more than we at the LSFC are obliged to promote singer-songwriters?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 08:35 AM

FCs where anything goes are a lousy gateway drug - they don't do nearly enough to get people on to the hard stuff.

Or...

Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suite on hire purchase in a range of fucking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life...

But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got Traditional Folk?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 09:38 AM

I am not sure why any of you need to define what "folk" is. I am also baffled as to how and why the notorious "1954" definition has either meaning or importance to any of the people here.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 09:52 AM

It gives people a cosy feeling. Us-them, before-after, pure-impure, real-unreal.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 10:31 AM

"I think the fact that a definition which was formulated 55 years ago - some time before I was born - works for me now, in the sense of being a reasonably good guide to music I enjoy, is a very good reason to retain it. It's not a value judgment, just a suggestion that one thing is not like another thing."

Here is the fallacy - you say the definition is a "reasonably good guide to music I enjoy".    The 1954 definition only describes how a traditional song was created but says absolutely NOTHING about what kind of song it is. You say it is not a "value judgement", but when you claim that a defintion of a songs creation is a guide to the music you enjoy you are saying that the "label" is what guides you. Some people will only wear designer clothes, but it doesn't make it a comfortable fit.

There are wonderful blues songs which fit that catagory - and I've always felt that blues are a style of folk music.

The 1954 definition does nothing more than recognize a tradition.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 10:51 AM

Here is the fallacy - you say the definition is a "reasonably good guide to music I enjoy".    The 1954 definition only describes how a traditional song was created but says absolutely NOTHING about what kind of song it is.

I know. Where's the fallacy? In my experience, the traditional definition (which does indeed include a lot of blues songs) has proved to be a reasonably good guide to music I enjoy. (Not, just to be clear, the only music I enjoy.)

Why should they be obliged to promote traditional music any more than we at the LSFC are obliged to promote singer-songwriters?

Mainly because we've got this word 'folk', and most newcomers aren't likely to know that it can mean two almost completely different things.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 10:51 AM

If only they had gone for a non-exclusive "description" rather than a rigid "definition" back in 1954, we would have had no problem.

If they had chosen a different word to "define", other then "folk", say "George"; but then the Georges of this world would be complaining that their name has been usurped. And rightly so.

When a word exists for decades already, if not centuries, why do you feel the need to "define" it? I cannot help feeling that intellectual arrogance is involved.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 10:58 AM

"Mainly because we've got this word 'folk', and most newcomers aren't likely to know that it can mean two almost completely different things. "

Why only "two" completely different things? Do you feel a blues song and an old English Ballad and an Italian folk song are the same? Industrial ballads, logger songs, songs of the George Sea Islands, Mexican folk tunes are all "folk songs" by that 1954 definition - but saying "folk" does not describe anything.   If you recognize that "contemporary" folk songs spring up from a contemporary community and fit most of the terms of that definition - with the exception of recognizing modern transmission methods - you have "folk music". That does not make it traditional.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 11:08 AM

Pip Radish

Mainly because we've got this word 'folk', and most newcomers aren't likely to know that it can mean two almost completely different things.

Only two? Yes, that is the situation as it exists and (deep breath) there is absolutely nothing that you can do about it. The club you describe is not going to stop calling itself a folk club just because you tell it it is not conforming to the 1954 definition so stop agonising over a couple of words and concentrate on the music. Go to the clubs that sing and play the music you like and recommend them to anyone who shows an interest.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 11:18 AM

SS, a definition which encompasses anything is no use as a definition.

I'm quite happy to agree that songs which aren't traditional can be performed in a "folk context". Broadly speaking, I think these fall into 3 possible categories:

1) Traditional songs, which I think (hope) we can all agree are "folk songs"

2) A loosely defined genre of non-traditional music which is easier to recognise than to define, but which is generally described as "folk" (as opposed to another genre).

3) Music which is recognisably from another genre, performed in a folk club.

I think it's entirely admirable if people wish to gather together to play music of any sort. If it's music from the third category, I don't see why it is necessary to reclassify this as "folk" - it doesn't need validation, and no one is fooled, if someone plays a jazz classic or a piece of Bach, no one is going to go away thinking it's folk music, just that it's good music.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 11:44 AM

SS, a definition which encompasses anything is no use as a definition.

The reality is that anything goes in a Folk Club, or a Folk Festival, or even a Folk CD / CD-R. If people can play it or sing it, then bet your arse that they generally do. I'm looking at context here - the context of Folk - which is pretty big I'd say, or small, depending how you look at it. Thus, Folk is like Flotsam, which can encompass anything by way of context (just as long as it floats) but remains pretty useful as a definition nevertheless. Thus Flotsam might encompass a Rubber Duck from the 2006 Liffey Rubber Duck Race washed up on Fleetwood Beach is Flotsam; likewise a French Fishing Float washed up on Brighton Beach or indeed the Fish Crate from Castletownbere or even a Salmon Crate from Connemara (both washed up at Fleetwood).

In a Folk Club or Folk Festival there is Individual Diversity yet there is a Communal Unity - and Unity in Diversity is a very good thing; a tad ecumenical for fundamentalists perhaps, but the Folk Thang rides on its own sweet groove, regardless. So whatever your particular stripe, whatever your dig-bag might be, we welcome you in the name of Folk and the message shall forever be - Come All Ye!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM

Do you feel a blues song and an old English Ballad and an Italian folk song are the same?

No, I think they're all traditional. They've all gone through the kind of process DMcG eloquently described several comments back, of communal adoption, preservation & transmission in more or less altered forms. As such, I think - if they're done reasonably well - I'm likely to like the way they sound. (This is not true of singer-songwriter material, even (or especially) if it's done well.)

I might end up doing an Easby and abandoning the word 'folk' altogether, but for now I still think it's worth trying to nudge the meaning of the word a couple of notches back towards 'traditional'. While folk means "traditional songs, mostly" and also means "anything which anyone's prepared to listen to in what they consider to be a folk context", a lot of people are liable to miss out on hearing the good stuff, and never know they have missed out.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:57 PM

Pip - so are you saying that English Ballads or a traditional blues song are not folk songs? Have they not gone through the same process?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM

"I still think it's worth trying to nudge the meaning of the word a couple of notches back towards 'traditional'"

'ang on I'll unplug me Strat....


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 01:38 PM

While folk means "traditional songs, mostly"

Depends where you are really. Do people think this is generally the case? I can think of many clubs & festivals where it isn't true in the slightest. So Folk means Folk Songs, including some traditional, or not, as the case might be. Personally, I no longer see why traditional songs should get special consideration other than one of personal taste justified by some fantasy of a folk process by which they may (or may not) have come down to us.

Go check out Ron Baxter's songs over at The Fleetwood Folk Club myspace page - there're all his words, set & sung by various artists. When Ron writes a song, he does so to a Traditional Tune, but when he gives you the words, he doesn't tell you what that tune was, so whoever he gives the song to has to come up with one to fit. This is an empirical Folk Process, resulting in some amazing Folk Songs, echoing The Tradition and written by one whose dedication & erudition in the field of Traditional Folk Song is legendary.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:10 PM

The reality is that anything goes in a Folk Club, or a Folk Festival, or even a Folk CD / CD-R. If people can play it or sing it, then bet your arse that they generally do."

You have argued against the 1954 'definition' (really just a description of the some of the processes by which 'folk' music has evolved historically) because you feel it is out of date and too restrictive. Fine, you're hardly the first person to prefer a more inclusive interpretation of folk/vernacular music (see the work of Archie Green, Norm Cohen and plenty of others). But for a term to have any value, it has to have some boundaries. What, if anything, would not fit your open-ended definition of Folk? If some of my buddies and I showed up at your club with electric instruments and performed Slayer's 'Reign in Blood' in its entirety, would that be Folk Music?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:15 PM

"What, if anything, would not fit your open-ended definition of Folk? "

Pop, show tunes, rock, classical, jazz - not folk songs, but they can be sung as folk music


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:19 PM

But Sinister Supporter (name?) seems to believe that all of the above (plus rubber squeak toys and computer programs) all fall under the umbrella of 'folk' (as long as they are performed in a 'folk context') . . . or have I misunderstood you, SS.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:32 PM

But for a term to have any value, it has to have some boundaries.

It does have boundaries, just as Flotsam has boundaries; the boundary is context.

If some of my buddies and I showed up at your club with electric instruments and performed Slayer's 'Reign in Blood' in its entirety, would that be Folk Music?

Personally I feel a bunch of guys doing cover versions of heavy metal is Folk Music by default, but would it be worth the effort of setting up all your gear just for a couple of songs in a floorspot? One things clear, from past evidence you'd go down a storm at Fleetwood.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:43 PM

MM, it's only an issue in a folk club context. At a festival people attend shows they'll like or head for the bar if it's not their bag. All perfectly natural.
The main reason I don't attend clubs (or church services) is I wouldn't want to offend by yawning or standing up and leaving the room if I didn't like what was on offer. If staying is part of the deal it makes for small attendances lead by the musical tastes of the few regulars, or a very conservative/inoffensive booking programme.

A range of styles under the folk umbrella is the ideal; unaccompanied traditional, accompanied trad, traditional with contemporary instruments, modern lyrics on old tunes, right through loops, freon horn drones, Xpelair samples from the Gents, Bert Lloyd overlays and sequences. All with the greatest respect for the nameless ones who went before.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:43 PM

"If some of my buddies and I showed up at your club with electric instruments and performed Slayer's 'Reign in Blood' in its entirety, would that be Folk Music"

talk about taking things to the extreme just to prove a point, whatever that point is.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:52 PM

If you wish to be strict about following the 1954 definition, NOTHING sung if a folk club is really folk music. Once you take the song out of the context of the community, it is merely entertainment.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:11 PM

I've no idea because I can't hear the difference.

Well, maybe this is the problem. Many of us hear strong differences between traditional music and contemporary music. This is why we would like them to be separate genres. This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the song is any good. It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not people should sing it, or where they should sing it. It just means it's a different genre of music.

Before I read this thread, I had never heard of the 1954 definition, and yet I've been playing traditional music -- and defining it the same way as the 1954 definition -- for most of my adult life. In saying this, I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to play, or making any judgments about what's good and not good. I'm simply saying that there are two quite different genres of music encompassed by the "folk" label, and they are mutually exclusive.

The 1954 theory is somewhat like the theory of evolution. No one would say it covers every possible scenario, or that it supplies the whole answer for anything. It is, however, a theory that describes and accounts for a set of observed phenomena. It tells us how and why the music sounds like it does, has the variants it has, and has spread the way it has.

I don't know why anyone thinks that those of us who are arguing in favor of the 1954 definition are trying to put music on a shelf, draw rings around anything, or tell anyone what they should or shouldn't play. Most everyone has been at some pains to say quite the opposite. No policing! Just a discussion of the definition of a word. Traditional music is certainly not on a shelf for me. It's a living, breathing thing and can be handled in almost any way that anyone likes. It is as much a folk song when done by a rock band as it is when sung unaccompanied -- something that can't be said about most singer/songwriter music. I've often thought that giving a singer/songwriter a big recording budget tends to change the music from "folk" to either pop msic or country music.

Traditional music is just not the same as contemporary song, and no amount of saying "it's all folk" is going to make many of us start using the word "folk" to describe anything that gets done in a "folky" context.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:14 PM

"It does have boundaries, just as Flotsam has boundaries; the boundary is context."

So now I understand (I think): Anything played in a 'folk context' (including death metal) is folk music. So it's not the *music* at all that makes it *folk*, it's the context(?).

What you describe as folk clubs, etc. sounds like open mike night at any one of a half dozen coffee houses within walking distance of my house. Therefore, these are folk clubs and this is folk music? Or does it only become folk music when you call it folk music (in a 'folk context')? You are using the word to define itself, a circular argument and hopelessly imprecise.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM

When I said "I can't hear the difference" I almost qualified it but didn't want to labour the point. I can perceive differences because my expectations are fulfilled but as SS suggested it's mostly about context.
Such differences as there are come down to lyrics, style or instrumentation, none of them totemic or particular to folk. It comes back to this 1954 more/less thing. I find the transcendent and numinous in the tradition (especially on a scratchy 78) but I find it in Robert Wyatt and Bellowhead, Major Lance and Edith Sitwell.

You say there are strong differences between the tradition and contemporary music John P, can you point out how exactly?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:43 PM

I can't help but agree wholeheartedly with John P's comments just above.

####

Thanks for the comments on British folk clubs. I figured they all couldn't all be either as rigid or as sloppy-loose as many posts made them seem. I would, indeed, like to make it to the British Isles sometime in the near future, but due to my physical limitations, it seems pretty unlikely. By the way, how are the British Isle in general for things like wheelchair accessibility?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:00 PM

By the way, two comments:

First, be it noted that, no matter what it has come to mean now, initially, the word "folk" referred to "the rural peasant class." In these days, despite incredible disparities in personal wealth, power, and social position, we like to think that we live in a "classless society," and that the word "folk" has come to mean "people in general." Not a particular group or class, but to all people. This, of course, renders a term like "folk music" essentially meaningless. All music becomes folk music. [Do I hear a bit of whinnying and neighing off in the distance?]

And second, in reference to George Papavgeris' comment just above, "If only they had gone for a non-exclusive 'description' rather than a rigid 'definition' back in 1954, we would have had no problem," I take that "definition" as a description rather that a list of rigid prohibitions, and since it is a good description of what I have always considered to be "folk music" (before 1954 and now), I have no problem with it. If one reads the "1954 definition" (in italics in the first post in this thread) without prejudice and reflexive knee-jerking, one can see that it is a pretty good, well-thought-out description. It does not include bodies of music such as symphonies, string-quartets, opera, or short-lived commercially written popular music. Nor does it include songs written last Tuesday morning while sitting on the commode in the company men's room and sung for the first time at a folk club or open mike the following Saturday evening, preceded by the announcement, "This is a folk song. . . ."

One of the advantages of eliminating all definitions (especially the ones we don't particularly like because they don't include what we would like to include) is that we don't have to spend any time learning a cohesive language in which we can communicate with a fair degree of precision. It allows us to merely point and grunt.

Think of all the tax money we spend on education that we can now save!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:06 PM

Pip - so are you saying that English Ballads or a traditional blues song are not folk songs?

Certainly not. I'm saying they're all traditional songs, which I guess we'd all agree makes them folk songs.

'ang on I'll unplug me Strat....

Why would you want to do that? I think they had electricity in 1954, and I'm sure they didn't say not to use it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:16 PM

The 1954 attempt to define this music sounds good to me--as far as it goes. To the extent that a given folk presentation stays within the parameters of all that I did musically over the years, that defines folk music for moi well enough for most practical purposes.

Buy my issued recordings. Listen to 'em. There will be my views on this topic graphically depicted in the ear of the behearer.

Other than that, I don't seem to need these semantic exercises now.

Art


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:20 PM

There seem to be about half a dozen separate but connected arguments going on here. It's a shame this seems to have turned into another 'definition of folk music' thread.

A few points:

1. The "folk process" is probably alive and well in those bits of the rainforest where the inhabitants have yet to make contact with the modern world.

2. In the UK context "traditional music" has become a genre: its a body of work from the past that is sung or played usually in a particular context in a particular style. You can take it out of that context and sing (or play) it in a different style, but that's the exception rather than the norm. Personally I rather like those exceptions when they're done well (so keep that Strat plugged in and cranked up, Rifleman!) but can totally understand why others wouldn't. I don't think it's likely that the 'traditional music' canon can be added to in an age of modern technology and communication. Even on the Steppes of Siberia the Tuvan throat singers are groovin' to the sounds of Sonic Youth...

3. Folk music can either mean 1954 definition folk music (which describes - imperfectly or otherwise - a process not a type of music; or it can mean folk club music/folk scene music - a context not a type of music; or it can mean what the general public/media/music industry think of as folk music (everything from Waterson Carthy to the Corrs to KT Tunstall to James Bl*nt to a metal band with a bit of acoustic guitar) - a marketing concept not a type of music. There's no point in trying to bolt any stable doors: the horse has bolted and he's singing his little head off.

4. The one thing that unites the three variants on 'folk music' above is that none of them describe a genre/type/style of music - they are all simply convenient shorthand for describing something else.

5. This leads me to the conclusion that there is no such thing as folk music.

6. Don't get me started on the folk. What have we/they/it got to do with folk music?

a)I'd suspect that 1954 folk music, to paraphrase Morrissey, "says nothing to us about our lives". I'd suggest it was the soundtrack to the lives of some of our ancestors. Everyone likes a sing song, don't they? And once upon a time we didn't haave radiogrammes and the like... Now this music is the tipple of choice for a proportion of those who identify with folk music. It may also all be a bit arbitrary because it's dependent on who was collecting what and when and with what agenda.

b) As far as folk club music goes, it's up there with train-spotting and ferret-fancying as a Great British Minority Enthusiasm. Nothing wrong with that, but only the music of a very narrow band of the folk who happen to like going to folk clubs rather than consuming a different sort of music in a different context.

c) The folk probably tolerate the marketing guru's take on folk far more than the first two, because it fits in with the other stuff that saturates the airwaves, the adverts and so on that is part of the fug we all have to breathe. Plenty of the folk bought "Beautiful" by James Bl*nt. Plenty are happy enough to sing along to "American Pie" in the pub. If it's about the folk as in the people, there's yer folk music!

7. So maybe folk music, which we've already established doesn't exist as a type of music, also no longer exists as the music of the folk.

8. Personally, I'd sooner listen to the sound of my own ears being forced though a traditional Spong meat mincer than have to sit through another bearded loon puking his way through Hotel California or have to endure another throw-yer-head-back-and-mewl-and-emote The Fields of friggin' Athenry, but that's not the point is it? It's not about what I want. It's about what we've got.

And we haven't got folk music. Because there is no folk music.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:08 PM

Such differences as there are come down to lyrics, style or instrumentation, none of them totemic or particular to folk. You say there are strong differences between the tradition and contemporary music John P, can you point out how exactly?

The differences aren't at all about style or instrumentation. They are about lyrics and melodies. I don't have the learning, inclination, or time to do a thorough analysis of the differences between traditional and non-traditional melodies and lyrics. The best I can offer is an assignment: listen to 100 traditional folk songs. Then listen to 100 contemporary songs. If your ears work the way mine do, the differences (and similarities!) will be extremely obvious in about 95 of each 100. The other 10 songs will be in a gray area somewhere.

After listening to and playing traditional folk music for the last 35 years or so, I can hear a melody and say, "that sounds traditional" or "that sounds modern". When I'm wrong, it's usually because the modern song was written by someone who has been listening to and playing traditional music for most of their life. But then, that's my one quibble with the 1954 definition: there are newly composed songs that, for me, fit in the traditional music genre because they are melodically and lyrically indistinguishable from traditional music. I don't know if these should be considered folk songs or not, and it doesn't really matter much to me.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:21 PM

"there are newly composed songs that, for me, fit in the traditional music genre because they are melodically and lyrically indistinguishable from traditional music."

I agree. And some of them don't even sound like folk.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:22 PM

"I'm saying they're all traditional songs, which I guess we'd all agree makes them folk songs."

I guess it boils down to a disagreement that "Folk" and "Traditional" are interchangeable words.   I agree with you 100% on the aspects that make music traditional, and disagree that "traditional" means the same as "folk".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:28 PM

I guess it boils down to a disagreement that "Folk" and "Traditional" are interchangeable words.

Actually I've given up on making that strong claim - too quixotic even for me. What I meant was that some people here say that the "folk" category consists mostly of traditional music, while others say that it consists of traditional music and a lot of other stuff. So the one thing we can agree on is that if a song's traditional, it can be called a folk song.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:38 PM

Spleen - well put. Mostly, anyway.

I'd suspect that 1954 folk music, to paraphrase Morrissey, "says nothing to us about our lives".

I know what you mean - I quite fancy singing The old cock crows, but if I did I'd have to point out that every single line was a lie ("I like to hear the old cock crow early in the morning"... well, er, no actually). But still - no death, no heartbreak, no horror, no riotous boozing, no opportunistic seduction? No nights that you wish had lasted seven long years? (You don't have to answer that one.) No morns that look bright and clear, but the forest won't yield me no roses? You must lead a sheltered life.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:10 PM

SS, what you're describing is a philosophy, not a definition. You're celebrating that ordinary people are coming together to make music. I agree, that's worth celebrating. However, according to you, when people get together to make music, of whatever origin, that's folk. It's a point of view, but I don't think it's one that many would share, and neither does it reflect everyday language or experience.

There are recognisable genres of music, although they many not be easy to define, and playing them out of their usual context doesn't alter that. A jazz piece is still jazz, whether it's played in a folk club or a jazz club, just as Bach is still Bach, or hip-hop is still hip-hop, wherever it's played. Similarly, a folk song is still a folk song whether it's played in a jazz club or a classical concert hall. You cannot define "folk", or anything else, simply by its context.

The "folk club" is not as unique or special as we like to think. Everywhere, amateur musicians are coming together to make music, in choirs, orchestras, jazz clubs, and countless other venues. They're all sharing the same experience of making music. To label what they're doing as "folk" because it's done by folk is actually quite patronising.

What you are really saying is that you have something which calls itself a "folk club" at which all and any kinds of music are welcome. That's great. I won't even argue with you over whether it should be called a "folk club". But to call everything that is played there, or which might be played there, "folk music" doesn't help us towards a definition of "folk" in its modern usage, which is what I had understood to be your question. The club could be called something quite different, the music would remain the same.

Why not just say that at your "folk club" people are encouraged to perform not only traditional and modern folk songs but any other genre as well? Why does it all have to be forced into the label "folk"?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:56 PM

Pip - you slightly miss the point I was trying to make. For me, personally, some of these songs speak volumes and are things of great beauty that articulate all manner of human emotion and experience. On the other hand, why is it that when I pop a folk CD on the player, the normal response from most of my friends - and they're nearly all music fiends of one kind or another - is not to be able to get beyond the 'funny voices' or 'archaic language' or 'odd tunes' or 'strange instruments' or horrors upon horrors utter lack of instruments? This isn't an isolated response. It's what I've come to expect. Traditional music sounds like it is made by aliens, so it would seem. This doesn't happen when I play them James Blackshaw or Nancy Wallace or The Accidental or Mary Hampson or many of the singer songwriter/nu-folk/Green Mannish albums I also have lurking on my miseryPod (TM). Hmmm...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 08:03 PM

How about viewing folk in terms of what it's not - rock/pop.

Then add a few positives as well like....   problems....

.....what can we add that hasn't exceptions?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:25 AM

When I washed up up on these shores I was roundly - and immediately - abused for describing any non-traditional music as folk music. That flies in the face of web sites, record labels, radio programmes, shop filing systems, folk clubs (AFAIK) and festivals agreeing with my suppositions. If there was a war, it was over before I arrived.
Except on mudcat where, like those Japanese soldiers on pacific islands, the war rages on.

I would suggest that the tradition and folk are both alive and well.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:51 AM

Why must you use emotive language, 'Glueman'? Who 'roundly abused' you? Do you really mean someone disagreed with you? That's permitted in a discussion forum, you know!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:12 AM

This leads me to the conclusion that there is no such thing as folk music.

Probably the most sensible thing I've seen so far on this thread - and the 3 propositions from the esteemed Spleen that preceded it also made damned good sense.

It doesn't matter whether we agree with the 1954 definition totally, partially or not at all. The process by which those songs came to be over a period of time has now stopped - and the stoppage began, unwittingly, when RVW and C# and others "meddled and muddled" as Diane Easby put it. The very act of writing it all down and recording it has been the thing that fixed it in time.

So what we have now in the UK - unless the process as defined by the 1954 words is still going on unnoticed somewhere - is a body of work that entertainers can draw on if they feel fit. I doubt that many of us who perform in clubs, sessions, singarounds, open mics (call the components of this generally acoustic scene what you will) are connected in any way to that unconscious process. We draw on the material as we find it in our chosen sources, and we draw on other materials if we so choose and if we think they're appropriate for the moment. Whether others think they're appropriate is all down to personal taste in the end.

By singing traditional material, i.e. that largely within the scope of the 1954 definition, we're not keeping the tradition alive in any sense - we're choosing material to perform which appeals to us as performers and which we hope will appeal to the audience. It's good that the body of traditional music exists, and it's good that many performers draw on its beauty for performance purposes. But let's not be fooled - it's entertainment, and I doubt that even an informal and boozy sing-song in a pub is carrying on the tradition as defined.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:14 AM

After my first or second post (I forget which) one of the regulars said - forget it, this ones not worth it! The kind of playground control freakery I hadn't heard since, er..the playground. What a welcome. Hilarious - except adults still think and talk like that.

SS suggested his friends thought folk music didn't speak to ordinary people, I can relate my friends think it's for nutters and pedants and wonder what I get out of it.
Fortunately the music is there for all and so long as you don't visit folk clubs, limit festival visits and don't spend too much time on Mudcat, you can listen to the stuff unsullied by people who want to write history (with committee approval in case they're unsure whether to enjoy what they're hearing or not) in their own image.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:46 AM

SS, what you're describing is a philosophy, not a definition. You're celebrating that ordinary people are coming together to make music. I agree, that's worth celebrating. However, according to you, when people get together to make music, of whatever origin, that's folk.

Maybe Folk itself is a philosophy? A way of life, a way of being. Maybe we should be a bit more specific here and say that Folk Music is music done by Folkies; and if that includes the late great Matt Armour and company doing When The Saints Go Marching In and Jim Eldon's inspired reconstruction of The Tide is High then so much the better. It might also include a lot of other things too, but in the end this is a music which defines its own parameters according to no other set of criteria other than what Folkies are moved to do in the name of Folk. If this argument is somehow circular then so be it; and let the circle be unbroken.

It's a point of view, but I don't think it's one that many would share, and neither does it reflect everyday language or experience.

It reflects 35 years of experience of Folk; I'm sure I'm not alone in that. Go to any cub or festival; even listen to Mike Harding's radio show; look through the Folk section of your local HMV; look through the threads on Mudcat...

There are recognisable genres of music, although they many not be easy to define, and playing them out of their usual context doesn't alter that. A jazz piece is still jazz, whether it's played in a folk club or a jazz club, just as Bach is still Bach, or hip-hop is still hip-hop, wherever it's played.

A jazz piece doesn't stop being jazz just because it's played in a folk context no more than a Fish Crate from Castletownbere stops becoming a Fish Crate because it's adrift on the Irish Sea. It is Folk; it is Flotsam.

Similarly, a folk song is still a folk song whether it's played in a jazz club or a classical concert hall. You cannot define "folk", or anything else, simply by its context.

I'd say that was true of a Traditional Folk Song, but really a Folk Song only exists in a Folk Context; take it out of that context and it invariably becomes something else. Like when the Fish Crate is returned to Castletownbere Fisherman's Co-op.

The "folk club" is not as unique or special as we like to think. Everywhere, amateur musicians are coming together to make music, in choirs, orchestras, jazz clubs, and countless other venues. They're all sharing the same experience of making music. To label what they're doing as "folk" because it's done by folk is actually quite patronising.

It is the Folkies who call these places Folk Clubs, or Folk Festivals, or Folk whatever; it is the Folkies who do these things in the name of Folk. And yes, the Folkies do not have a monopoly on amateurism (in the best possible sense of a word that all too often is used derisively). However, a Jazz Club is not a Folk Club, although there are crossovers, such as when the same individual attends both. One night he'll have his Folk Hat on, the other his Jazz Hat. But it's only when he does Jazz with his Folk Hat on that Jazz is Folk. Of course the question must then be asked would he do Folk with his Jazz Hat on? Well, I do occasionally - I'll sing a Traditional Folk Song in the context of a performance of Free Improvisation (call that Jazz? it's not even fecking music!), but to me it's all Folk Music anyway because - guess what? I never heard no horse sing a song!. And I really, really, really, deeply, honestly, sincerely, believe that to be true. To me, the ultimate Folk Context is Planet Earth, but I'm not about to bring that into the discussion, just let you know that ultimately, that's where I'm coming from. Everything I do is Folk - from THIS to THIS to even THIS.      

What you are really saying is that you have something which calls itself a "folk club" at which all and any kinds of music are welcome..

No - what I am saying is that all Folk Clubs and festivals are like this. The Folk Club in Fleetwood is just one example.

That's great.

Not always, but such is life.

I won't even argue with you over whether it should be called a "folk club". But to call everything that is played there, or which might be played there, "folk music" doesn't help us towards a definition of "folk" in its modern usage which is what I had understood to be your question. The club could be called something quite different, the music would remain the same.

I disagree. Folk in its modern usage is almost entirely about context. And would the music remain the same? Certainly the ethos would change - the weight of meaning which is carried by the term Folk Club which ensures we get a regular rosta of visiting floor singers bringing everything from self-penned ukulele songs (in the Tradition of George Formby) to Scottish strict-tempo accordionists, to singer-song writers, to unaccompanied singers of Traditional Song, to players of Segovia on classical guitar, to blues singers. They all come because it's a Folk Club.

Why not just say that at your "folk club" people are encouraged to perform not only traditional and modern folk songs but any other genre as well? Why does it all have to be forced into the label "folk"?

The label isn't forced, it's what it is; it's out there in all its empirical diversity. This is not my personal opinion, but an observation of a reality. I may not like it any more than you do, but such is life - if life offers you Lemons, you make Lemonade.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 06:08 AM

PLEASE come back, Jim. At least I understood what I disagreed with you about.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 06:21 AM

"After my first or second post (I forget which) one of the regulars said - forget it, this ones not worth it! The kind of playground control freakery I hadn't heard since, er..the playground. What a welcome. Hilarious - except adults still think and talk like that."

Was this 'abuse' that you suffered in this thread, 'Glueman', or in a previous thread? I can't seem to find it in this one.

Anyway, you shouldn't take anything said on here too personally - it's only words, after all! For example, my position was equated with 'ethnic cleansing' on another thread - a position so ludicrous that, after bringing it to the attention of the poster, all I could do was laugh!

Seriously though, people who take the position that the folk genre is limited and definable are still being accused of being authoritarian and all sorts of other crimes. In my view this represents either an hysterical over-reaction or blatant mis-representation, and does not move the debate forward - this sort of thing is the true 'politics of the playground'.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 06:48 AM

An old thread, a year ago perhaps Shimrod. It wouldn't matter at all, I certainly don't feel wounded, except there is a perception that folk is about being right, scoring points, being pedantic, cantankerous, exclusive - usually under the banner of inclusion and bonhommie (on certain terms!) - anything but the damned music, which that sort of response plays into the hands of.

Those involved would say those who 'get it' get it and those who don't are beyond help. The question is what is this 'it'. The more I read the more I conclude there is no it, or one person's it is different to another's. You want to make 1954 a shibboleth? Fine, we'll write one for 2009. As someone noted, they ain't legally binding, they're notions, abstracts, an attempt at a history from scattered fragments and high ideals.

The funny part is my taste is very traditional (when we're talking about the tradition and not contemporary folk music), something I fear is lost on the critics.
I agree with SS and Will Fly's observation that tradition or folk, it's all entertainment now. When people get that, the BS wars will be over.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 08:20 AM

Of course, I could rest my entire case on the Singers and Songs that Stunned Me thread, where what we have in a few passionate posts represents a reduction to the consummate essence of what people think of as being Folk Music, including a few Traditional Songs, but only one, so far, sung by a Traditional Singer... Hmmm - needs must I rectify that one!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 08:36 AM

Well SS, I think I'd call Gary Davis a very traditional singer - just not in the UK tradition! I certainly count seeing him as an absolute privilege.

Broonzy was perhaps more urban - I won't say more sophisticated - than Davis (the Rev. had a stunning knowledge of the guitar), but he still represented one of the last of a tradition of blues singers who got it "on the hoof".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 09:16 AM

Sorry about that, Will - missed those! I think it's these solvents I'm working with today. I missed the whole point of the thread too; whilst I have seen some Traditional Singers in Folk Clubs etc. I wouldn't say I was ever particularly stunned by them, though I'd love to know the name of the guy who sang Plains of Waterloo as a floorspot at The Bay Hotel Folk Club in Cullercoats back around 1979 - now that was stunning!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 09:39 AM

SS, I do understand what you're saying. But you were asking for a definition. What I'm trying to get across is that if you say that "folk" can encompass absolutely everything, then it fails as a definition, because it doesn't tell us anything about the music except the context in which it is performed on a specific occasion. To say it can be "folk" as well as jazz, or classical, or hip-hop doesn't help us to recognise a piece of music as being "folk" - which is the purpose of a definition.

Do the George Formby uke-players or classical guitarists really believe their music is folk, therefore they go to a folk club to play it? My guess is they think, "OK, this isn't folk, but if I go to that particular folk club they'll let me play it anyway."

What you have done is to define the music policy for your club. By extrapolating from that to claiming that all music is folk music you are implying that all folk clubs should have the same policy, and that any "folk club" which turns away the uke-players or classical guitarists has no grounds for doing so.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 09:48 AM

"what you're describing is a philosophy, not a definition."

That is the most intelligent statement that has been made in this or any thread on the subject of "folk music". Well done!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 09:58 AM

Glueman, I still don't believe that I'm being authoritarian by sticking to my point view that folk music is a limited and definable genre. And even if I wanted to 'throw my weight around', and dictate to people what they can and can't sing, how would I go about it?

The only feasible way that I can see is to be a folk club organiser and to run a club with a clearly defined policy. Surely, no-one could object to that - especially if it is a democratic policy agreed upon by all of the club's members. But I'm not such an organiser and, therefore, have no powers whatsoever. All of these unfounded accusations of authoritarianism are mischievous and stop the debate from moving forward.

Nevertheless, I am entitled to my point of view - no matter how unpopular it might be in some quarters. I think that this debate may well boil down to Pip Radish's assertion above (I think it was you, Pip?) that some people can't tell the difference between 'is' and 'ought'. The 1954 definition is a good guide to what folk music 'is' but some people think that it 'ought' to be something else and, hence, reject the definition. Incidentally, I have met this attitude in several other areas of my life and have come to recognise it for what it is.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 10:13 AM

doesn't help us to recognise a piece of music as being "folk" - which is the purpose of a definition.

If the definition of Flotsam is some anomalous artefact adrift in the sea, then the definition of Folk I'm suggesting is valid as a definition. It might define the music in terms of genre, but it does define the music in terms of its human & social context which I would have thought was more important to a music called Folk. The 1954 Definition does that too - it never once nails a genre as such, just gives a catalogue of criteria by which a song might be considered Folk. So Folk has always been a matter of contextual criteria rather than musical content - it has never been a genre as such, more of a construct.

Do the George Formby uke-players or classical guitarists really believe their music is folk, therefore they go to a folk club to play it? My guess is they think, "OK, this isn't folk, but if I go to that particular folk club they'll let me play it anyway."

My guess is they come because a folk club is one of few places they can get to play their music to an appreciative & warm hearted audience, which is generally what you find in a folk club and why the music - any music - tends to be accepted as such.

What you have done is to define the music policy for your club.

Not just our club - all clubs & festivals are like this to a greater or lesser extent. It's the wider condition of this thing called Folk Music.

By extrapolating from that to claiming that all music is folk music you are implying that all folk clubs should have the same policy

I've yet to go to one that doesn't. In fact - if there's anyone reading this who knows of an exclusively Traditional Folk Club or Singaround I'd be interested in hearing about it - if only so I might come along one day!

and that any "folk club" which turns away the uke-players or classical guitarists has no grounds for doing so.

I can't conceive of any such club. Seriously - in my time I've been to hundreds of clubs, and even the most traditional of them wouldn't be so callous as to turn anyone away. That is one of defining attributes of Folk Music - inclusiveness on a human level.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 10:16 AM

Correction!

It might not define the music in terms of genre, but it does define the music in terms of its human & social context...

Solvents!!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 10:27 AM

"All of these unfounded accusations"

They are not unfounded, the guilty party may well intervene on the thread before long with an explanation. It was a swift baptism of fire in internet folk debate.
However you look at it today's activities are pastiche. Even clubs who'd insist on unaccompanied traditional songs sung without any tonal accuracy or intrusive mannerisms - a small market and one probably incapable of local support - are dealing in re-enactment. Nothing wrong with that so long as it's seen for what it is and they don't make intellectual land-grabs on the wider folk estate.

I can't make my point better than it's all entertainment, singers of traditional songs aren't preserving anything more than public singing in member's clubs, which is fair enough. What's not to like?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:44 AM

"My guess is they come because a folk club is one of few places they can get to play their music to an appreciative & warm hearted audience, which is generally what you find in a folk club and why the music - any music - tends to be accepted as such."

Unfortunately, there's a lot of truth in that! It's what I've been saying for ages! Far too many people have taken advantage of the easily accessible platform provided by folk clubs. My view is that if such people can't get platforms anywhere else it's their problem, and they should not be making it a problem for folk fans like me!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 12:06 PM

singers of traditional songs aren't preserving anything more than public singing in member's clubs, which is fair enough. What's not to like?

Realising after five years of regular attendance at a folk club that traditional material isn't just another specialism - like "sung by Donovan before he went electric" or "made famous by Hank Williams" or "about my recent relationships" - but a vast ocean of music, with enough songs to keep any singer going for a lifetime. I didn't like that.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM

"that traditional material isn't just another specialism"

Oh yes it is, don't kid yourself. It's a minority taste, always has been, electrification not withstanding. I won't hold my breath waiting for a mass conversion to 'the cause'


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 01:58 PM

Try reading to the end of the sentence, Rifleman.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 02:14 PM

Oh but I did, and what I posted previously still stands, so get over. it


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:06 PM

If you can't spot a difference in scale between "sung by Donovan before he went electric" and "every song with the word 'trad' after it", either you're badly misinformed or you need new glasses.

But I'll gladly take the opportunity to clarify. The only thing I've really disliked about going to my local FC was the realisation, after five years of regular attendance, that traditional material isn't just another specialism, a little store of a couple of dozen songs which one performer can make his/her own - like "songs sung by Donovan before he went electric" or "songs made famous by Hank Williams" or "songs about my recent relationships" - but a vast ocean of music, with enough songs to keep any singer going for a lifetime. The realisation that I'd been missing out on all that music - I didn't like that.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:25 PM

The realisation that I'd been missing out on all that music - I didn't like that.

Sounds like an Epiphany to me, Pip - significant cause for rejoicing! Just on relearning The Molecatcher today; I've decided to relearn all the songs I've ever forgotten - not as easy at it sounds believe me.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:31 PM

Pip Radish: "a vast ocean of music, with enough songs to keep any singer going for a lifetime. The realisation that I'd been missing out on all that music"

Again very seriously not being arsey here. But yes, me too. Except I feel that partly (if not greatly) to blame for my lack of exposure to Traditional Song is that it was/has been utterly lost and overwhelmed by a surfeit of eclectic material which has - like it or no - mushroomed beneath the fungal folk umbrella.

Not sure I buy the OP's thesis myself; preferring 'Folk as Genre' (which tends to be the way most people organise music) though frankly on logic and empirical evidence, SS's reasoning seems hard to fault!

So, I'd like to see 'Traditional [Folk] Song' out from underneath the suffocating umbrella of Folk, where it is utterly LOST! And indeed will ever remain so - irrespective of whatever a tiny few would prefer to be the case.

Prioritise! The songs matter more than some verbage!

Of course while the annoyed scratch their itching sores, and grumble, thankfully there are real YET real live boys n' girls like Mawkin Causley, and Bellowhead, going out there and doing the REAL work of communicating folk songs to those who might still actually give a damn... ;-)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:36 PM

Crow Sister, welcome to the madhouse...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:15 PM

Indeed, I took my 11 year old, 3/4 size Les Paul totin', rock luvvin son to see Mawkin Causley and Bellowhead and they're now on his iPod - his decision.
I wouldn't know how to operate an iPod. With my eyes vinyl is a problem! Sly and Robbie were doing some similar arrangements twenty odd years ago. Music is seamless.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:23 PM

Well, I guess I'm not only in the wrong pew, I'm in the wrong church. I found myself agreeing with what Crow Sister just wrote, then, unfamiliar with Mawkin Causley and Bellowhead (out here on the west coast of the U. S. and A.), I pulled them up on YouTube.

What I heard was with what came on like symphony orchestras with whatever solo singers I could pick out being backed by choirs of other singers.   The songs being sung (at least the ones I listened to) seemed to be what I would consider (in my narrow, twisted little mind) to be "folk" songs—or "traditional" songs (if there really is a difference, which I can't see myself), but the presentation reminded me of some of the major stage productions put on by Harry Belafonte back in the mid to late 1950s.

Whatever happened to the singer (just one) singing a traditional song (like a Child ballad, for example) to the accompaniment of a guitar—or a banjo—or a concertina (just one, not all of them together)? Or possibly even (shudder of horror!!) unaccompanied?

Oh, I see! Dull! Weird! Boring! Nobody wants to listen to that stuff anymore, I guess.

(But—fortunately, that doesn't reflect my experience out here in the wilderness).

'Scuse me for now. Lunch time here.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:13 PM

Sounds like an Epiphany to me, Pip - significant cause for rejoicing!

Oh, it was that all right - life-changing experience. But I did then start thinking where have you been all my life?, and one of the answers I came up with was not at the Folk Club, that's for sure.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:14 PM

If Bellowhead are a bit raucous for your taste Don try Mawkin:Causley. Botany Bay is a good'un, enough rum, sodomy and the lash to keep any traditional party going.
http://www.myspace.com/mawkincausley


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:35 PM

The 1954 definition can be applied cross-culturally. It doesn't define 'what folk is' but describes the processes by which folk music - in its myriad forms - has evolved.

Sinister Supporter's definition - 'folk is flotsam' - apparently describes what goes on in many English folk clubs. Would 'folk is flotsam' work as a definition outside this specific context? If you visited a country and failed to find a folk club that resembles yours, would you conclude that said country has no folk music?

If you want to update the accepted definition of folk music, you're going to have to do better than (I paraphrase) - "Folk is anything that washes up on the shore of my club."


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 06:21 PM

1954 has nothing to do with folk music. It's an arbitrary date that is used because someone said something about it.

This new debate is like the snake swallowing it's tail or as Shake said "sound and fury...."

Before this definition came up, scholars and folklorists were saying the same thing.
What's so new about 1954?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 06:44 PM

1954 is just a shorthasnd way to refer to a particularly way of defining the term folk music. The definition had been in use for many many years before that, obviously, and has been used ever since as well (with, as befits something folkie, slight continuous modification!)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 07:24 PM

Well, yeah, Pip. The "Botany Bay" rendition was good, very good, but still there is the matter of
Jim Causley - vocals & accordion
James Delarre - fiddle and backing vocals
Alex Goldsmith - melodeons and backing vocals
Danny Crump – 5-string electric bass, piano, and backing vocals
David Delarre - acoustic guitars and backing vocals
I have nothing against the idea of "folk bands," I mean, after all, I weathered the onslaught of groups like the Kingston Trio, the Brothers Four, The New Christy Minstrels, and dozens of clones and imitations. Then and now, I sometimes find that all that instrumentation and the backing vocals tend to overwhelm a song, especially one that has a story to tell.

There was quite an onslaught of this sort of thing back in the late 1950s and early 1960s, and if you want to introduce people to folk music, I'm not sure that this doesn't present a problem in "truth in labeling." I recall one evening during my regular weekend gig at "The Place Next Door" in 1959, someone requested "The Wreck of the Sloop John B." So I sang it. The person who requested it grumped a bit that I hadn't sung it right (I believe I first heard it sung by The Weavers, and I'd learned it in 1956 from Carl Sandburg's American Songbag). "Why?" I asked. "What isn't right about it?" "That's not the way the Kingston Trio does it," he complained. "Well," sez I, being quick of wit, "there are three of them and there's only one of me."

Groups of this kind are very entertaining. I really enjoyed The Weavers, The Gateway Singers, The Clancy Brothers, Peter Paul and Mary, The Chieftains and others when they passed through Seattle. But as to "introducing people to folk music," I think that these often slick and carefully arranged ensembles give a somewhat bogus impression.

One thing for which I give Harry Belafonte high marks is that often when he went on tour, after he had the audience thoroughly warmed up, he would bring out people like Odetta or Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee, say" These are the people who inspired me," and then turn them loose to do what they had always done.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 07:30 PM

So is that another new definition of folk? A solitary pursuit?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 08:13 PM

Hi Don,
One of the reasons I keep playing at the Folklife Festival even though I'm sick of the crowds is because every year someone comes up after our set and says something like, "I've never heard anything like that before. I love it! Where can I find more music like that?" There is something about traditional music that compels certain people; I think they are responding to the melodies, rhythms, and words. I've never done a solo set in my life, and my music tends to be highly arranged (although my first rule of arranging involves making sure the arrangement supports the song rather than replacing it). I spent years playing in a duet with about a dozen instruments on stage with us, and now play in a five-person band with lots of instruments and harmonies.

I agree that there is something special, and in some ways more traditional, about the unaccompanied or minimally accompanied song (I credit Chris Roe with first turning me on to traditional music), but I also think that music in a more "normal" format sometimes sucks in folks who wouldn't pay any attention to a solo singer doing trad material.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 09:38 PM

Here in the US, we've always had "real" traditional music that was accessible--performers and recording of performers who were actually part of the various living musical traditions--not everyone listened, or liked it, but it was there--there was nothing on the other side of the pond corresponding to "The Anthology of American Folk Music"--


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 04:20 AM

If you want to update the accepted definition of folk music, you're going to have to do better than (I paraphrase) - "Folk is anything that washes up on the shore of my club."

Your paraphrase is inaccurate. Better would be Folk Song can be any song sung in the name of Folk in a designated Folk Context. A DFC is not necessarily a Folk Club. Whilst I haunt the amateur fringes of folk, there is nothing in the folk world as a whole (festivals, magazines, record companies, radio shows, internet fora etc.) that would contradict my proposition of Folk as Flotsam, which is to say a generality of music performed in the name of folk and defined by context rather than genre. I say again, I base this on observation of the evidence - I'm not making it up.

So is that another new definition of folk? A solitary pursuit?

How lonely are we Folkies in the real world? How often in the course of our every day lives do we cross paths with another of our breed? Not that often in my experience! Head for the local folk club and no longer feel alone! Kindred spirits and like minded souls! And a network of community, belonging and togetherness brings you into the bosom of the fold. Hell, I even my wife in a Folk Club and how happy I am that we might bring our Folk home with us; I know singers of both sexes who married and were never heard of again. I know others who married outside of Folk and brought their new spouses into the fold where, although they might never sing, are as much a part of it as anything else. And what proportion of Folk is the singing? As oppose to the banter and the crack (I am a Geordie) and the Jouissance that might well come through the music but which is, in actual fact, the consequence of context alone? Hmmmm - Folk is a community thing; I may sing my songs solo (though rarely unaccompanied) but the experience is collective.

If you visited a country and failed to find a folk club that resembles yours, would you conclude that said country has no folk music?

Even the IFMC (who came up with the 1954 Definition) have changed their name to the ICTM; so Traditional music makes greater sense, although their remit does state: The aims of the ICTM are to further the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music, including folk, popular, classical and urban music, and dance of all countries. But this isn't about Folk Clubs per se, rather Designated Folk Contexts which in British Society include Folk Clubs, Festivals etc, but in other cultures might be very different as a casual glance at YouTube might reveal. British Folk Music (as we understand it, or don't as the case may be) is not and nowhere near the whole of the case for British Traditional Music or British Ethnic Music, rather something very particular with respect of a Revival largely determined by a particular generation whose musical concerns, as I am attempting to show, are not wholly traditional.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 04:30 AM

"Well, I guess I'm not only in the wrong pew, I'm in the wrong church. I found myself agreeing with what Crow Sister just wrote, then, unfamiliar with Mawkin Causley and Bellowhead (out here on the west coast of the U. S. and A.), I pulled them up on YouTube.

What I heard was with what came on like symphony orchestras with whatever solo singers I could pick out being backed by choirs of other singers."

As usual, Don, spot on! I couldn't have said it better myself.

The trouble is that all of these new 'Folk Wunderkind' really aspire to being in a band. There's no doubt that they know a lot about traditional music (quite possibly more than I do!) but they seem to see it as just a vehicle for their 'being-in-a-band' ambitions.
For me one of the the refreshing thing about folk music is that, generally, it doesn't need the band treatment. Applying such a treatment is 'over-egging the pudding'. If I want to listen to bands of musical prodigies I'll just switch on the radio (maybe I wont!) - I like my folk music straight and undiluted - otherwise it's like every other noisy, over-hyped racket that saturates our contemporary environment.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 04:41 AM

In the UK people have to find their own way through the folk maze. I can't speak for the present day but as someone born in the late 50s my introduction to folk was throught the half-arsed but well meaning attempts to get country dancing on the curriculum (stripping the willow and other comic nightmares) and the BBC schools broadcasts (cut glass classically trained vowels intoning Child ballads).

Pub folk consisted of - to use a broad but well placed brush - drink addled amateurs singing in a way they hope their great grandparents might have to others on the same nostalgia trip. Better stuff sometimes made its way onto John Peel's programme or the discerning could hang around the few specialist shops for tips.

The very few clubs I attended were replete by Mary Hopkins clones doing folk-lite by the early 70s or members out puritan-ing each other much as bird watchers might tick off near-extinct varieties they'd seen.

For the ordinary person folk was a complete irrelevance: maxi or mini skirts, a few Jesus freaks, grumpy old men. About as far from it's community routes as it's possible to imagine.

IMO folk music has survived despite folk clubs, not because of them.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 05:02 AM

This whole thread isblown to hell. Recent research, published today in the Musicological Review, has revealed, shockingly, that Cecil Sharp and Ralph Vaughan Williams did not collect the folk songs they had claimed to collect - but actually wrote them all themselves.

I'm shocked and distressed beyond measure.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 05:49 AM

I've just read that, Will. It follows on from similar claims made against one Albert Lancaster Lloyd. Perhaps more alarming (to me) are the revelations concerning the creations of a certain Francis J. Child - all 305 of them. They're calling it a literary hoax on a par with Ossian. Question is though - are they still good songs?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 05:54 AM

"Designated Folk Contexts" indeed. Who does the designating? The Home Secretary? The Ministry for Homeland Security and National Culture? Spare us, please.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 06:11 AM

Who does the designating?

Anyone who calls what they are doing a Folk Club, Folk Festival, Folk Party, Fok Singaround, Folk Session, Folk CD / CD-R, Folk Radio Show, Folk Forum, or Folk whatever is designating a folk context.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 06:47 AM

"Question is though - are they still good songs?"

Perhaps the only question?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 06:59 AM

I designate my bicycle as a folksong. I have also decided to de-designate "Searching for Lambs", which is now no longer an English folksong. However much its characteristcs might might you think it actually is one.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 07:09 AM

I'm reminded of Tracy Emin being asked why her unmade bed was "Art". "Because I'm an artist. I went to art school."


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 07:12 AM

What I find interesting is the kind of contemporary stuff the "designators" do designate as folk. And the kind of stuff they don't. The distinguishing feature is often that the stuff designated as "folk" was in fact created by the "designator". Tunes made up by rough working class youths with electric guitars, or young rappers, somehow doesn't make the grade quite so often.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 08:55 AM

"I'm reminded of Tracy Emin being asked why her unmade bed was "Art". "Because I'm an artist. I went to art school."

She was absolutely correct of course. Her installations have been commodified in the art market, ergo, they're art.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 10:24 AM

I'm reminded of Tracy Emin being asked why her unmade bed was "Art". "Because I'm an artist. I went to art school."

Here in Lancashire, Granada once had daytime TV show called Brit Art Challenge, inspired by the popular Watercolour Challenge, and aimed at the same general demographic, albeit those with more conceptual inclinations than the rural picturesque. In one episode Mrs Delia Fairhaven, 73, of Lytham St. Annes, won the prize simply by neglecting to make her bed that morning - and in another Mr Albert Cockerham, 68, of Knot End-on-Sea, nearly scooped the gold almost quite literally having replaced the water in his goldfish tank with formaldehyde. The prize was snatched from him when the RSPCA intervened and given to runner up Miss Joyce Clitheroe, 60, of Great Eccleston for another post-Emin homage entitled Everyone I've Never Slept With - 1946-2006 - a symbolically white one-person tent with no names in it whatsoever.

Tunes made up by rough working class youths with electric guitars, or young rappers, somehow doesn't make the grade quite so often.

That would come under the general heading of Traditional Music & Ethnomusicology rather than Folk Music per se, although here the 1954 Definition fails once more because it doesn't allow for the given Tradition be in any way Creative, or else essentially improvisatory, as is the case with much popular & traditional musics the world over. I'm glad to see the remit of the ICTM (formerly IFMC) is to further the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music, including folk, popular, classical and urban music, and dance of all countries. Just a shame those who cling doggedly on to the 1954 Definition in the name of Folk Music can't do likewise.

We had some young rappers in a folk club recently - The Kingsmen of Preston I think - many of whom didn't look old enough to be in the pub but who danced like madman all the same.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 10:28 AM

Following that logic, if there was a folk market, this whole question could have been settled simply and quickly. Sadly, there is no folk market.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 10:32 AM

If Joyce Clitheroe won the gold for maintaining that she'd never slept with anyone between 1946 and 2006, then she's lying. In 2002 I slept with Joyce Clitheroe in Great Eccleston.

Sorry - no - my mistake. I slept with Joyce Eccleston in Clitheroe...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 11:32 AM

Clithero Joyce was the reason Tracy's bed ended up like that.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 11:38 AM

What? Joyce was doing it with Tracy?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:06 PM

"This whole thread isblown to hell. Recent research, published today in the Musicological Review, has revealed, shockingly, that Cecil Sharp and Ralph Vaughan Williams did not collect the folk songs they had claimed to collect - but actually wrote them all themselves."

RVW was know to ermmmmm..change the odd word or six, shall we say, mind you so did A. L. Lloyd


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:14 PM

"For me one of the the refreshing thing about folk music is that, generally, it doesn't need the band treatment."

Of course this eliminates much of the tradition of dance music and front porch picking which I feel is an important part of folk music.

I do agree with Don though - often the "big band" approach kills the message of the song.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:26 PM

Was just watching Bellowhead's take on Rambling Sailor, that's the stuff!!
Bellowhead are fun with a capital F.U.N, and that lads and lassies, at least for me, is the key and always has been.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:58 PM

Folk Song can be any song sung in the name of Folk in a designated Folk Context"

This is a circular argument.

"A DFC is not necessarily a Folk Club."

I still don't understand how a "designated Folk Context" (club or otherwise) as you have described it differs from open mike night at a coffee house. I frequent coffee houses, and often visit open mike's when I'm out for a walk, and I have never found one referred to as a "designated Folk Context" (which does have the ring of apparatchik lingo). Further, the singers, musicians, poets, cranks and maniacs who participate in these sessions do not generally (in my experience) identify themselves as 'folkies' or 'folk artists' or anything like that. Presumably, though, they would become such if someone "designated" my local coffee house as a "Folk Context"(?) . . .


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:59 PM

"Bellowhead are fun with a capital F.U.N, and that lads and lassies, at least for me, is the key and always has been."

I think that is one thing we forget when talking about folk or traditional music - FUN. These songs that have been carried down were sung for many reasons, including to have fun! We need to remember that in days before ipods, this was entertainment. People always use whatever tools are at their disposal.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 01:00 PM

I think of folk as essentially a doing thang, rather like sex; maybe listening to folk is like erotica, in that it might inspire you to do the real thing - but there again I've always preferred the amateur / vintage / field-recorded stuff to the slick, glossy, professionalism which leaves me cold to be honest. It has been said that the essential difference between erotica and pornography is that whilst pornography exploits the subject as an object, erotica celebrates the object as a subject. Does folk (on any level) objectify its subjects or subjectify its objects?

I wonder, is all music like this? In the house, with one or two exceptions, I listen to anything but Designated Folk Music. I might play to occasional Peter Bellamy album, or Shirley & Dolly Collins, or Jean Ritchie, or Seamus Ennis, but as a rule folk as a recorded / performance medium bores me rigid. I like Jazz, Hip Hop, Dub Reggae, Early Classical, Ethnomusicology and other such Exotica - in other words music that I'm not involved in personally. Or maybe that's objectifying subjects? Or just a matter of individual taste anyway, which ultimately is all that matters. One man's fun with with a capital F. U. N is another man's hell with a capital H. E. L. L.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 01:10 PM

I still don't understand how a "designated Folk Context" (club or otherwise) as you have described it differs from open mike night at a coffee house.

The only difference that I can figure out is that one designates itself as being Folk - rather like those times when I turn on radio two of a Wednesday night and only know that it's Folk Music I'm listening to when I hear Mike Harding's voice. Times I've gone to an open mike night and performed Traditional Ballads I've been quite keen to stress that it isn't folk music.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 01:53 PM

Ron you've hit the nail right on the head.
Bellowhead, are, after all, a dance band, interactive as it were, not a 'sit on your hands and "please entertain me" act'

I love the tale about how the dancers at one of Bellowheads gigs ( I believe it was at Sidmouth) actually broke the dance floor. How true that is, I have no idea, but it's the perfect illustration of the power of music and how an audience can get os their arses.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 02:07 PM

"The only difference that I can figure out is that one designates itself as being Folk . . ."

This is fascinating because I've never known a venue to 'designate itself'. Someone has to do the 'designating'. Perhaps designation works like Transubstantiation: The words are spoken by authorized persons and the bread-and-wine of coffee-house-amateur-music is transformed into Folk Music.

"Times I've gone to an open mike night and performed Traditional Ballads I've been quite keen to stress that it isn't folk music."

My first response to this was to conclude that you are off your rocker. But then I realized that I really have no idea what you mean. Traditional Ballads at an open mike aren't folk music because Open Mike is not a Designated Folk Context? Well, suppose you designated it as such before performing (a sort of blessing) . . . then would Traditional Ballads be Folk Music? What if I stood outside and pronounced the blessing whilst you sang? Would that be close enough? Because if death metal is folk music but traditional ballads aren't, then I'm afraid your newly-minted redefinition is already in need of some serious revision.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 02:37 PM

I shall have to disagree with SS on the last post. Listening to recorded folk music may be a vicarious activity but the alternatives aren't all that attractive. Folk clubs, in my admittedly limited experience and from what I've read on here, are a varied commodity.

At their best they're a good communal sing-song, an activity there's precious little opportunity for these days and one shouldn't be too choosy about the material that prompts it. At their worst they sound like attending a conservative religious service, calls and response, breast beating, earnest nodding and memories of things dark and half-remembered.
Sitting next to my record player I can slap on some sea shanties, a bit of folk rock, The Morris Motors Band, or any number of Celtic twilight folk as well as some tear jerking English ballads. Folk festivals are a different matter, you can hear your favourites or make for the beer tent.
Perhaps I'm missing out but if someone invites me to a riot I don't want to discover it's a meeting of The Sealed Knot Society. Bellowhead do a much better impression of genuine civil disorder when they're in full flow, kinda like The Bonzo Dog Band storm the Bastille with Mariachi brass and a string section. Which is folk enough for me.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 02:49 PM

Ok, that's what you want

Bellowhead Civil Disorder at the Royal Albert Hall

Now get up and dance !!!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 03:12 PM

This was quite a night too. Can you spot Jim Causley in a daisy, er conga chain?

Shepley B'Head riots


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 03:23 PM

I now have my 5 year old dancing up a storm to the Rochdale Coconut Dance (lots of jumping up and down involved) *LOL*


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 03:28 PM

"I now have my 5 year old dancing up a storm to the Rochdale Coconut Dance (lots of jumping up and down involved)"

And THAT is how traditions start! Most dance moves evolve out of a joyous reception to the music. I'm sure some of the dances that Cecil Sharp mapped out a century ago could be traced back to a move made by a five year old ages ago!   

Long live evolution!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 04:46 PM

This is fascinating because I've never known a venue to 'designate itself'.

Of course the venue doesn't designate itself; bad choice of words.

Someone has to do the 'designating'.

Yes - it's the organisers who do the designation.

Perhaps designation works like Transubstantiation: The words are spoken by authorized persons and the bread-and-wine of coffee-house-amateur-music is transformed into Folk Music.

I believe the process to be as occult as the one you describe, but, alas, it's something I've never really been privy to. Something weird does happen though; like sitting in the club room of a pub on a non-Folk Club night.   

My first response to this was to conclude that you are off your rocker.

Very possibly.

But then I realized that I really have no idea what you mean.

Ditto.

Traditional Ballads at an open mike aren't folk music because Open Mike is not a Designated Folk Context?

Traditional Balladry isn't automatically Folk Music any more than a fish crate is automatically flotsam. As I've said elsewhere a Traditional Ballad might be sung in any musical genre context without injury to its integrity. The International Folk Music Council got rid of Folk from their name owing the term being essentially meaningless, changing their name the International Council for Traditional Music instead. So when I do a Traditional Ballad at an Open Mike Night, I'm doing Traditional Balladry, not Folk.
   
Well, suppose you designated it as such before performing (a sort of blessing) . . . then would Traditional Ballads be Folk Music? What if I stood outside and pronounced the blessing whilst you sang? Would that be close enough?

Whilst the process is occult, I don't think you can change the nature of a musical context mid-way through the proceedings. If you announced to an audience of non-folkies that they were now in folk club, the effects, I fear, would be catastrophic. There would be fatalities.

Because if death metal is folk music but traditional ballads aren't, then I'm afraid your newly-minted redefinition is already in need of some serious revision.

Both Death Metal and Traditional Music can be Folk, though it's perhaps less likely with the former (although there is a thread about Folk Metal going on around here). I'm trying to stick to the facts here - the evidence of what happens in the Name of Folk, so hypotheticals don't really help, despite my own stated personal feelings on the matter which you might be getting confused with.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 04:55 PM

I don't recognize a lot of the music that Bellowhead is playing, but it sounds like folk tunes. Indeed, they are a lot of fun.

But—

Bellowhead, or Harry Belefonte, or The New Christy Minstrels, or Gladys Swarthout singing songs by John Jacob Niles, or Kathleen Ferrier's recording of English folk songs, or operatic baritone Thomas Hampson singing a program of American folk songs, or a program of folk songs sung by the King's Singers or the Mormon Tabernacle Choir are all experiences totally different from listening to folk songs in their natural habitat(s) (whatever those might be). When I see the drum set and the brass section and the musicians themselves jumping up and down like fleas on a hot rock, well. .  .  .   

Academicians and ethnomusicologists would agree that the songs being performed are, indeed, "folk" or "traditional," but that the manner of presentation is anything but.

What drew me to folk music in the first place was hearing a concert given by a local singer of folk songs, Walt Robertson. One single singing voice accompanied by a single guitar, singing a wide variety of songs, American (from all over), some blues, British songs (from all over), some songs in French, a few Canadian songs, a number of Child ballads. These songs ran the gamut of emotions from tragedy to comedy, and some of the ballads verged on epic poetry. Walt held the audience—and me—enthralled for a couple of hours. I thought it over for a long time, then decided, "I want to do that!"

Most people I know who are involved in folk (traditional) songs became actively interested pretty much the same way I did.

I don't think Bellowhead, despite the quite contageous exhuberance of their performances, or any of those I mention above, would have done it for me.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 05:15 PM

singing songs by John Jacob Niles

I've only become aware of JJN in the last year or so but I'm intrigued by his idiosyncratic approach. Here's a few JJN links:

http://mewzik.com/research/niles/

http://www.myspace.com/johnjacobniles01

http://www.myspace.com/johnjacobniles01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpaAeqBhwrM


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 05:23 PM

"... or Gladys Swarthout singing songs by John Jacob Niles, ... are all experiences totally different from listening to folk songs in their natural habitat(s) (whatever those might be). "

You can also add John Jacob Niles singing songs - or Richard Dyer Bennett.   Great & unusual voices - but could you call that "authentic"?

I do agree with you Don - but frankly any artist standing on a stage singing a folk song is far removed from the natural environment.


"When I see the drum set and the brass section and the musicians themselves jumping up and down like fleas on a hot rock, well. . . . "

I guess you could say the same thing about a square dance, contra dance or those crazy Brits who love Morris dancing!!    Of course, the drum IS the original folk instrument!


"I don't think Bellowhead, despite the quite contageous exhuberance of their performances, or any of those I mention above, would have done it for me."

To everything there is a season. One man's ceiling is another mans floor. (Add additional cliche's here)

I agree with you again Don! For you it was Walt Robertson, each of us have our own inspiration that drew us to the music. I guess we can never tell what is going to inspire others but we can only encourage those that get there!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 05:59 PM

SS, I had thought I'd understood your argument, even though I disagreed with it. I thought we all accepted that "folk" is at least traditional music, and that the discussion was about all the other types of music which get performed in "designated folk contexts".

Now you appear to be saying that even a traditional song is not folk unless it's performed in a "designated folk context". If it's performed in another context, it's not folk. So if someone plays jazz in a folk club, that makes it folk, and if someone plays folk in a jazz club, that presumably makes it jazz.

There is a logical consistency to this argument. However, and with the utmost respect, its utter bollocks.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 06:14 PM

True indeed, Ron. Frankly, I thought a lot of what the Kingston Trio did when they first got under way (frequently using songs as the basis for a cheap joke) was a travesty. But the KT was the introduction to folk music for a lot of people.

". . . but frankly any artist standing on a stage singing a folk song is far removed from the natural environment."

And I'm fully aware that that includes me.

Like Richard Dyer-Bennet, who considered himself to be a modern day minstrel (a particular kind of professional entertainer), and who gave me a lot of good advice early on, I don't regard myself as a "folk singer," although that's what other people usually call me.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 07:01 PM

However, and with the utmost respect, its utter bollocks.

You can't play Folk in a Jazz club because Folk does not exist as a corporeal genre - it is vague umbrella term for a variety of possible genres including Traditional Balladry. Traditional Balladry existed long before anyone thought up the term Folk Music; it will exist long after the term Folk Music has been forgotten. You have a lot of hypothetical objections, but nothing (apart from insults) to support your counter-argument. Meanwhile, here is some Jazz being played as Folk Music by Folk Musicians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88cJTlXU42k

And here is some Jazz being played as Jazz by Jazz Musicians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyLjbMBpGDA

I love both these people dearly; both sing to me with equal beauty and human warmth. One is Folk, the other is Jazz (although wasn't it Louis Armstrong who once said...?)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 07:42 PM

"Folk does not exist as a corporeal genre"

You seem to be just about the only person who thinks that. True, we have some difficulties in defining the boundaries, but the same can be said for most musical genres.

I'm now confused by your introduction of the term "Traditional Balladry". Are you now excluding traditional songs which are not ballads? Or is this just a fancy way of referring to traditional songs?

I can see differences in the styles in which the two versions of "Saints" are performed, but they are fundamentally the same song, and the structure of the tune says "jazz" rather than "folk". I understand the point you're making, but it describes the performance rather than the song. If I only listen to the soundtracks rather than watch the videos, I've no way of knowing that one took place in what you call a "folk context" and therefore no way of knowing that the song has suddenly, if temporarily, undergone genre reassignment.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 07:43 PM

The mistake may be to assign Bellowhead as being emblematic of anything - except a good time and the following hangover. Spiers and Boden can and do create authentic English folk music. Do they stop being folk musicians when they become part of a larger band?

Younger people may hear their rendition of The Rochdale Coconut Dance and wonder as to its origins who'd never have given it a second thought. Folk isn't a reductive enerprise with austere perfection at one pole, it's a layered cake of ideas.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 09:33 PM

So anything you play in a jazz club is, ipso facto, jazz? And anything you play in a folk club is folk? Anything?

Here is a diagram that a very wise man once gave me:
X <--- Horse goes here    ||    Cart goes here ---> X
Always glad to help.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 09:45 PM

"And I'm fully aware that that includes me.

Like Richard Dyer-Bennet, who considered himself to be a modern day minstrel (a particular kind of professional entertainer), and who gave me a lot of good advice early on, I don't regard myself as a "folk singer," although that's what other people usually call me."

Folksinger, singer of folk songs - the title is not important to me. The beauty of the performance is what counts, and Don - your passion is evident in the music that you sing.   It's folk music to me! :)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 10:01 PM

The difference between the two clips is one of quality, the song, and the idiom, are the same. Actually, a pretty good arguement could be made that Louis Armstrong and company are folk artists playing a traditional, or "Folk" tune, and that the other people are a pop musicians playing a jazz tune, or, as some are prone to say, "ripping off a jazz tune"--it certainly isn't part of their musical tradition--   

And now we know where you are coming from, Sinister Supporter--your examples are really helpful--


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:02 AM

You're a better man than I am, M.Ted - I don't know where he's coming from, and I know him!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 04:42 AM

"You're a better man than I am, M.Ted - I don't know where he's coming from, and I know him!"

I think, Pip, that he's making it up as he goes along (?)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 05:41 AM

SS, the problem I have with your definition (although I can see your logic) is that it is self-referential - "whatever I do is folk because I do it in a 'designated folk context'". It is also an attempt to justify your club's open music policy by saying that because it calls itself a "folk club " then anything that takes place there must therefore be "folk", whereas it would be less misleading to say the club does not limit itself to folk but welcomes all genres of music. As a "definition", all it defines is your and your club's activities.

According to your definition, if I sing a song in a "folk context" it is "folk", but if I sing the same song in exactly the same way at a different type of venue - an Arts Centre or village hall, or concert hall for that matter, it is not "folk".

I distinguish between "folk song" and "folk". To me, a "folk song" means a traditional song, whereas "folk" means the wider genre which has traditional song at its core but which includes a lot of other material. So "Streets of London" is not a "folk song", but it is "folk".

To be "folk", non-traditional music has to tick a number of boxes:

1) Musically, the tune should share the broad melodic and rhythmic structures of traditional music. This is more obvious with tunes, where to be accepted into the "folk" repertoire a newly-composed tune generally needs to follow the traditional idiom fairly closely, not least because there is still a strong link with dancing, and tunes need to fit the pattern of the dance. With songs, this is less important. but it is still there. Someone in an earlier post commented that folk music seems to some to have been written by aliens. In a sense, this is correct - for about a century popular music has been largely based on the rhythmic, melodic and harmonic structures of black American music, and to people brought up on this music the rhythms and melodic patterns of English traditional music as as alien and foreign as those of Japanese or Arabic music. To qualify as "folk", the tune should bear at least some resemblence to traditional idioms rather than those of popular music.

2) The words generally contain some sort of narrative, and probably stand alone when separated from the music.

3) The song itself is important - it is not merely a part of the musical sound, it is at the centre of it. With a popular song, it may not matter that you can't hear all the words or that they dont make much sense, provided the overall sound is enjoyable. With an operatic aria, whilst there is an underlying story, the main point is to show off the singer's voice and it doesn't matter if the words are in a foreign language. With "folk", if you don't hear and understand the words you've usually missed the point.

Whilst there is a certain "folk" style of playing, usually involving acoustic instruments especially guitar, fiddle or free reeds, there are so many variations to this that I don't think it is entirely helpful when defining the music. A traditional song is still a "folk song" whether it's sung unaccompanied by Walter Pardon, with guitar accompaniment by Martin Carthy, with a rock band by Steeleye Span, with Bellowhead's madhouse big band, or in a classical arrangement by Benjamin Britten. A pop song is still a pop song even if it's played in a folky style - this may make it more palatable to a folk audience but doesn't alter its fundamental nature.

A composed song which ticks the other boxes may be "folk", even if it's performed in a non-folky style eg with an electric band. Where I start to have difficulty is when songs with no musical resemblance to traditional music and performed in a non-folky style are nevertheless described as "folk" - some of Tuung's music, for example. I can't see how these can fall within the genre.

"Folk song" can be identified because it has gone through a particular process. "Folk" as a genre is easier to recognise than to define, and there will always be difficulties and disagreements at the margins (as there are with other genres). But it definitely exists.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 05:49 AM

You seem to be just about the only person who thinks that. True, we have some difficulties in defining the boundaries but the same can be said for most musical genres.

Give me a single example of Folk Music as an exclusive corporeal genre & I guarantee you a pint if ever our paths should cross.

I'm now confused by your introduction of the term "Traditional Balladry". Are you now excluding traditional songs which are not ballads? Or is this just a fancy way of referring to traditional songs?

I used the term Traditional Balladry (implying the stuff I do personally) because it can be defined as a genre, whereas Traditional Music can't (What sort of Traditional Music? Irish? Norwegian? Northumbrian? Sephardic? Inuit?). Traditional Songs might include ballads too, of course. As I say, even the 1954 Definition isn't a defining Folk Music in terms of a genre.

I can see differences in the styles in which the two versions of "Saints" are performed, but they are fundamentally the same song

They are conceptually the same song certainly, but the corporeal, cultural & contextual realisation makes them very different. It is not merely a matter of style.

and the structure of the tune says "jazz" rather than "folk".

That is to treat Jazz and Folk in terms of being genres, which they aren't, although Jazz would appear to be the more exclusive of the two in terms of musical parameters. There is, for example, a considerable difference between Folk Rock and Jazz Rock, not just in terms of genre, but of pragmatic usage. Rather like Pork Butcher and Family Butcher.   

I understand the point you're making, but it describes the performance rather than the song.

A Eureka moment here methinks. The performance is the context, the point where the conceptual becomes corporeal; when a mere idea is brought forth into the world to shine like a star, which both of these do, for me anyway. The difference is that whilst you'd really have to have your shit together to play with Louis Armstrong, such a consideration is less important with the late Matt Armour, in whose company even the most timid shaky-egg player would have been welcomed into the fold. As I say I love them both - I never knew Louis personally, but I knew Matt, whose musical parameters were as big as his heart.

If I only listen to the soundtracks rather than watch the videos, I've no way of knowing that one took place in what you call a "folk context" and therefore no way of knowing that the song has suddenly, if temporarily, undergone genre reassignment.

Oh no? Put a blindfold on and I'll see if I can come up with some more examples! But seriously, with folk music it is really the being there, the living breathing inclusivity that demands we check in our egos, aspirations & expectations at the door, which I'll be doing tonight, in The Steamer in Fleetwood, where anything can happen & probably will. Such is Folk Music.

*

Meanwhile, an almost relevant anecdote.

In the good old days in England Sam Smith's pubs carried music licenses and sold cheap (though barely drinkable) bitter such as Old Brewery, which at one Durham public house could be had for a quid a pint, thus making it very popular with musicians. Thursdays was the Folk Club; Tuesdays the Trad Jazz, and Mondays was the Irish Session, the players of which took themselves Very Seriously Indeed, and rightly so in terms of the impeccable standard of their playing which existed in direct correlation to the utter tedium it inspired in the casual listener, such as myself. Said public house was also the scene of many an hearty outrage; one night, for example, I was in there when a fight broke out in the bar between several inebriated men of the same family after a funeral. It was a Tuesday, and the Dixieland Jazzers played on as the chairs flew, and the men brawled, and the locals stood there as if nothing was happening. A lovely summer night it was as I recall, the sun shining, the doors open, and everything at peace with the world; a peace barely disturbed by the proceedings in the bar.

Anyhoo. One Monday night after an arduous coach journey from London I popped in for a pint (those who say to travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive have never travelled by National Express). The Session Musicians were through in the club room, playing their particular brand of music with fierce concentration and earnestness - a music which filtered through to the bar as a mildly irritating ambience: difficult to ignore, but not really loud enough to engage your attention, especially when one was in there on one's own, enjoying a solitary pint of an autumn evening with a half-ounce of Golden Virginia (Job papers & Swan Vesta matches) and a copy of Heart of Darkness (if only to get a literary measure of Apocalypse Now). Into the bar comes an old lady in her slippers, hair-net and dressing gown. In the absence of the barmaid, she helps herself to a large glass of Grouse from the appropriate optic. Taking a sip, she savours the poison, pondering all the while the nature of the entertainment taking place through in the club room, where our Session friends are playing with such indefatigable gusto they might well get through the whole of O'Neill's before closing time. Then a look of realisation dawns on her wrinkled face as it all becomes clear; something at least approaching a smile plays about her lips as she turns to me (there is, alas, no one else in the bar) and utters the immortal words:
"Eh, that's that Riverdance music isn't it?"
"It most certainly is," I reply, happy for the first time since parting from my girlfriend at Worth Abbey some ten hours earlier.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 05:57 AM

Howard - that seems to me to be a very logical and persuasive comment, and a very clear statement.

Much of this thread - as usual - concentrates on the songs. I'm still interested in views on whether the tunes are as easily categorised. Sure, some are overtly traditional and others are overtly composed, but I think there's a deal more shading somehow. Others may differ. I always quote Carolan as a composer who, because he lived so long ago, and because much of his music has been assimilated into the tradition, now seems to be a "folk composer".

A lot of discussion is generated about songs as springing from the working class, for want of a more appropriate phrase, and articulating, through the folk process (as defined by the 1954 def) stories, experiences, feelings of the common folk. But tunes, to my mind, are classless. Simple, sophisticated and all shades in between, but classless all the same.

Just a passing thought...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 06:01 AM

Cross posted there...

SS, the problem I have with your definition (although I can see your logic) is that it is self-referential - "whatever I do is folk because I do it in a 'designated folk context'".

No. Whilst I personally believe that the ultimate Folk Context is Planet Earth, this is not my argument here at all. I'm sorry brought the self-referential stuff into it all, it's muddied the waters of what was intended as a purely objective observation of what is done in the name of Folk Music.   

It is also an attempt to justify your club's open music policy by saying that because it calls itself a "folk club " then anything that takes place there must therefore be "folk"

Not just our club. This is true of all Folk Clubs, not just ours; it is also true of all Folk Festivals, Folk Radio Shows etc. etc.

whereas it would be less misleading to say the club does not limit itself to folk but welcomes all genres of music.

We do say that, but as I say folk is not a genre - it never has been, not even by the 1954 definition.

As a "definition", all it defines is your and your club's activities.

No - if defines the nature of Folk Music as it occurs throughout the world; in England certainly. Go to any folk festival, listen to any folk radio show, look through the folk section of your local HMV, and you'll see this to be true.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 06:06 AM

SS - there are all sorts of interesting logic questions in your descriptions of musical moments. I'm reminded of some of the questions posed by Lewis Carroll (C.L. Dodgson) in his various writings - and hinted at here and there in his Alice books. He noted the differences between, in logical terms:

- the name of it
- what it is called
- what it is
- what it is known as
etc.

Not the same things at all. You wouldn't, by any chance, be a connoisseur of the odd Oxford Don, would you? :-)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 06:57 AM

"...Bellowhead's madhouse big band.."

That description is symptomatic of the thinking behind this issue. Bellowhead, whatever one may think of them are undoubtedly folk and do what the name implies - provide a traditional bacchanalia: eat drink and be merry for tomorrow is the press gang, the hanging, love lost or at least the miserable bugger in the office to face.
To problematise what the band do by counterpointing it with the solo voice is disingenuous; it comes down to taste, not definition.

People seem to imagine B'Head and their like are a Trojan horse in the folk paddock waiting to kick the stable doors down. I see no evidence of that, they're fulfilling one side of the folk remit. It's up to other performers to chip in with the rest and find an audience.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 07:29 AM

So, Howard Jones, black American music doesn't include any traditional idioms?


And, Sinister Walkabout, "corporeal, cultural & contextual realisation" while entertaining diversions, make very little practical difference, because, as long as you can play the song in time, you could play "The Saints" with either Louis Armstrong or Matt Armour--that is, in fact, true of all music and all musicians-


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:17 AM

"So, Howard Jones, black American music doesn't include any traditional idioms?"

Of course it does. But on the whole they aren't the same idioms found in English traditional music, which is why people raised on popular music find it so hard to understand folk, especially English folk - Irish tunes somehow seem to be more accessible.

I once played for a ceilidh at a folk festival which had attracted quite a large crowd of the local youth. Watching them trying to dance to a hornpipe was highly entertaining - they just couldn't get the hang of the rhythm. I'm sure they were well able to dance to the rhythms of their own preferred music.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:25 AM

As a "definition", all it defines is your and your club's activities.

No - if defines the nature of Folk Music as it occurs throughout the world; in England certainly. Go to any folk festival, listen to any folk radio show, look through the folk section of your local HMV, and you'll see this to be true.


Actually in my experience, most folk clubs, festivals, radio shows etc stick more or less to my understanding of "folk". Likewise the folk section of my local HMV - I certainly wouldn't look there for George Formby imitators or renditions of "When the Saints go Marching In".

I accepted in my previous post that there are uncertainties around the margins, and certainly I do hear things in all these contexts which strain my understanding of "folk", but that doesn't mean that anything or everything can, or does come, under the umbrella


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:26 AM

Glueman, my description of Bellowhead was meant as praise, not criticism. My point was that a "folk song" remains a folk song no matter how it is performed.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:52 AM

Glad to hear it HJ. So much of what passes for folk's critical theory is preference dressed in a different hat.
If Bert Lloyd and the rest of the collectors were discovered to have written every word it wouldn't make an ounce of difference to the continued performance and reception of folk. Like the adherents to Genesis (the biblical prologue, not the popular music combo) if people's beliefs stretch no further than literal truths they're destined to be endlessly disappointed.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 12:35 PM

"If Bert Lloyd and the rest of the collectors were discovered to have written every word it wouldn't make an ounce of difference to the continued performance and reception of folk"

A similar thought occurred to me when I discovered that 3/4 of The Sloe Gin Set, from Bellowhead's Burleque recording, was actually written by Messers Spiers and Boden. I had a brief vision of the traddies screaming that therefore it wasn't folk music...but it passed *LOL*


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 02:27 PM

"With an operatic aria, whilst there is an underlying story, the main point is to show off the singer's voice."

Just a small nit-pick to set the record straight.

The purpose of an aria in an opera is essentially the same as that of a soliloquy (a dramatic monologue that represents a series of unspoken reflections) in Shakespeare's plays, or in a novel when the author takes you inside a character's head. Simply put, it's a piece of inner dialogue. And this, of course, can be an essential part of the story.

That's the intent that the librettist and the composer have in mind. Whether or not it is a show piece for the singer's voice is the singer's worry. There are a number of operatic arias that are actually not all that difficult to sing.

In most opera houses today, the problem of an opera being in a foreign language is taken care of with "supra-titles;" like the sub-titles in a foreign movie, but projected on a panel just below the proscenium arch above the stage. The Seattle Opera House is so equipped.

#####

Sin, you're hanging in mid-air twenty feet out from the canyon's rim, just like Wile E. Coyote before he looks down and realizes his situation.
corporeal :   having, consisting of, or relating to a physical material body.
The species we refer to as "elephants" are a corporeal genre. I don't see how the word "corporeal" relates to music of any genre. The idea of "genre" itself is an abstraction.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 02:59 PM

The species we refer to as "elephants" are a corporeal genre. I don't see how the word "corporeal" relates to music of any genre. The idea of "genre" itself is an abstraction.

I use corporeal in terms of empirical actuality; corporeal as oppose to conceptual, or even yet abstract. I don't suppose you've read Harry Partch or even listened to his music. Corporeal is a word he uses a lot to underline this vividness of musical experience; a vividness I regard as being integral to the experience of Folk Music. You know, the material physicality of sound which resonates in the physical material air, from one physical material body to another.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:06 PM

I use corporeal in terms of empirical actuality

Pray tell what that actually means, please. You are so far up your own arse...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:10 PM

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone," it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less."


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:10 PM

In case anyone doesn't understand what "up your own arse" means, there's a good definition here


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:34 PM

With due respect, Sinister Walkabout, it became clear a long time ago that, though you say a lot, you don't have a lot to say.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:38 PM

The above quotation from Monsieur Dumpty is most apt, especially within the context of this thread.

I remember a bizarre conversation I had back in the 1950s with a fellow who was hanging out in the University District, but was not a student. He favored the abolition of all dictionaries. In fact, he favored the abolition of all books and other reading material. He was cognizant of the fact (one of the rare facts he was cognizant of, actually) that the English language had a rich vocabulary of over 600,000 words, each of which signified a concept, and that by mixing and matching, one could fine-tune meaning quite precisely.

He maintained that this led only to confusion, bewilderment, and ultimately to misunderstanding. His recommendation for saving the world was to issue a mandate reducing the English language to no more than 350 words. Think of all the money society could save if it didn't have to spend it on such things as schools, colleges, and universities.

I don't know what ever became of him, but last I heard, he was seen in a back alley somewhere in the University District shopping for lunch in a Dumpster.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:55 PM

"I now have my 5 year old dancing up a storm to the Rochdale Coconut Dance (lots of jumping up and down involved) *LOL*"

Nice one! My six year old counts as his favourite songs Bellowhead's "Up to the Rigs of London Town", The Clash's "Rock the Casbah" and Kirsty McColl's "There's a Guy Works Down the Chipshop..." Result!!! I reckon.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 04:08 PM

PS This thread is just getting abusive now. Guest, Ed: if you don't understand what Sinister is saying, why not ask him to clarify rather than stoop to playground tactics? Don and M. Ted, you're not so far behind... And Ted, if you read Sin's posts you'll quickly realise he has BUGGER ALL to do with the ubernationalist pillock you so wrongly conflate him with. I don't wholly agree with SS's thesis (and I suspect he wishes the scenario he describes not to be the case, if only to avoid people singing Hotel California), but I understand exactly where he's coming from. I don't believe he's trying to redefine folk, but merely to understand and describe what he sees when he goes into, erm, designated folk contexts.

Having said that, a singaround pal last night suggested to me that "Spleen Cringe" was in fact Sin using a second Mudcat ID...

Off to turn my bathroom into a temporary DFC...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 04:43 PM

1954--a peaceful time: and a more bland and gray time it was too here in the USA. Kids I knew had a toy back then--the President Dwight D. Eisenhower doll. You wind it up------and it sits on it's ass for eight years! Lurking as a subculture in the back o' the yards was this folk revival---happening incrementally----until the '60s happened. The music burst forth with all it's scholarship and ballads, striped shirt trios and field recorded songs from the collecting done through the last 30 or 40 years---just to save it, and have it for us here and now.

People, it's no wonder at all that we graphically illustrate the resultant folkie hodgepodge every time we post something to a Mudcat thread.

I love it---all of it. Go for it. Find your niche in it and uphold and defend your found querencia. It's a dry place, and warm. It is as good as any place to spend a life. Parodying Woody Guthrie, I respectfully put a sign on my banjo: This Machine Kills Time! Looking back from age 67 now, it was and is glorious, and a farce as well. As Robert Cantwell intimated, "When we did it well, we could be very good." ("Making music" he meant.) And that was in his book "When We Were Good" -- a sometimes right-on volume that was also often infuriating and naive.

With admiration for you all no matter whatever,

Art


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 04:50 PM

Mr. Cringe, I hardly thing M.Ted and I are "stooping to playground tactics." And I understand perfectly well what Sinister is trying to say. I've heard that sort of circular argument before, in both this and other contexts. It's hardly "abusive" to point out to someone that their argument is full of ad hoc re-definitions, and is, hence, nonsensical.

One can "prove" anything, if you suspend the rules of logic and are allowed to define words any way you want to. And it certainly looks to me as if he's trying to redefine "folk" and "traditional" to mean anything he wants these words to mean.

If M.Ted and I are being "abusive" and resorting to "playground tactics," then so were Aristotle, Socrates, and a whole pantheon of logicians and philosphers.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 05:26 PM

Sorry Don, slight overreaction on my part in defence of a pal. I doubt SS will be eating from dumpsters just yet, however...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 06:19 PM

If Bert Lloyd and the rest of the collectors were discovered to have written every word it wouldn't make an ounce of difference to the continued performance and reception of folk.

What interests me about this hypothetical is that we already know it's not going to happen. Take (for example) Skewball, Reynardine and the Recruited Collier. In every one of those cases I can show you Bert Lloyd's version & I can also show you what was there before he got to work on it. This isn't speculation or blind faith - we've got the data. When people talk about the folk process they're talking history, not religion.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 06:37 PM

Ah, but suppose it became clear old Bert had inserted the odd verse, or indeed made whole songs around, say, a discovered song title and got a taste for period songwriting. Would it matter? Not a jot. Some might suggest they could no longer be described as traditional but the song would remain identical.

As for Sinister, I find him a vision of clarity compared to those who insist a song has qualities by the mere expedient of it being old. Qualities apart from oldness that is.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 07:06 PM

Ah, but suppose it became clear old Bert had inserted the odd verse, or indeed made whole songs around, say, a discovered song title and got a taste for period songwriting.

Again, we don't need to speculate - we know that he did this, sometimes improving the song, sometimes buggering it up. You can imagine a kind of alternate Bert Lloyd who was an incredibly skilled ethnographic forger, with access to the Bodleian ballad collection and the ability to control Cecil Sharp's thoughts, but if you're going to do that you may as well imagine him with X-ray vision and leaping tall buildings at a single bound. Back in the real world, there are some cases where we can see what was trad. and what was Bert, and others where we can make a pretty good guess. It's history, not religion.

those who insist a song has qualities by the mere expedient of it being old

Who would those people be? There's a big difference between an old song that's been through the folk process and an old song that's been preserved unchanged - songs in Shakespeare's plays, for example.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Betsy
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 07:21 PM

Thanks Pip - you make a lot of sense to me.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 09:13 PM

". . . those who insist a song has qualities by the mere expedient of it being old." I don't think anyone ever said that, glueman. It's a bit more than longevity that gives a folk song its essential qualities.

Don Firth

P. S.   A Fable:   Someone asks Big Bill Broonzy if the song he just sang is a folk song. Broonzy responds (allegedly), "It must be. I've never heard it sung by a horse."

At which point, the Truth Fairy swoops down and announces, "Wrong!! Broonzy was just moving his lips! The horse is a ventriloquist!!"


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 01:19 AM

Mr. Cringe--Though your pal may not share the political views of Mr. Walkabout, he shares the style of presentation, the techniques of argumentation, the same supreme self confidence, and the same propensity for going on and on...

I don't think it is abusive to point these things out, but perhaps am being a bit tedious, I apologize for that, but, in my defense, I am not the only one.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 03:14 AM

Spleen Cringe:
Guest, Ed: if you don't understand what Sinister is saying, why not ask him to clarify

I'd have thought "Pray tell what that actually means, please" was doing just that. Obviously not...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:37 AM

Define 'clarify'!

I'm sure that, in this context, SS will tell us that it means something completely different from the mundane "make clear ..." definition in my, oh so mundane old 'Oxford Dictionary'. Why, in a 'folk context' it can mean anything that SS wants it to mean!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:41 AM

This started out with a disambiguation of the terms Folk and Traditional with respect of the 1954 Definition of Folk Song as originally stated by the International Folk Music Council. As we have seen, the IFMC changed their name to The International Council for Traditional Music, to clarify their objectives with respect of traditional music, including folk, popular, classical and urban music, and dance of all countries.

Whilst we don't know the status of the 1954 Definition with respect of the ICTM, but we do know the status of the 1954 Definition with respect of certain Folk Fans, which is to say that of a shibboleth, the questioning of which is heretical despite that fact it does not adequately describe the sort of musics being performed in the name of Folk Music in the Folk Clubs, Folk Festivals etc. in 2009 - and some time before that.

Having attended Folk Clubs, Folk Festivals etc. for some 35 years, I ventured the suggestion that Folk Music as more a matter of Context than Content. This is no idle theory, but an observation of the sad fact (for a Traddy like me) that precious little of the music performed in Folk Clubs, Folk Festivals etc. is in anyway Traditional Music. Indeed, from what I have experienced, it can in fact be anything from amateur stabs at operatic aria to (and it hurts me to even write it it believe you me) Hotel California.

Some posts ago I summed up my position by saying if life offers you leons, make lemonade.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:42 AM

Ignore that. I'm still working on it. Hit the Submit Message Button by mistake.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:46 AM

"Some posts ago I summed up my position by saying if life offers you leons, make lemonade."

There's your problem. If life offers you leons, you need to make leonade.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:08 AM

I quite like the Kings of Leons.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:09 AM

Pip - Not very helpful. As I said, I hit the Submit Message button by mistake - when I was clocking to correct the spelling of LEMONS actually. Amended post to follow.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:14 AM

PR - posters on this thread have insisted folk music has an exceptional quality to it. I'm still asking what it is? I'm not being obtuse, I can hear subject matter, musical modes and presentation that suggests folkishness but none that are exclusive enough to justify those who say only traditional music has these qualities.

Traditional music provided a template for the future with the different qualities alluded to. If Bert Lloyd records twenty traditional songs but only has a first verse to go on for the 21st and embellishes the rest based on the idiom he's familiar with, is that song audibly different to the others? If there's no difference I can hear, no nuance, stylistic trait or whatever the characteristics lie in the textual origins, fascinating in their way but of no consequence to a living music.
Intellectually, those who say they prefer traditional music exclusively because of the way it sounds simply haven't thought the matter through.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:15 AM

I quite like the Kings of Leons.

And they play folk songs


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:57 AM

This started out with an attempt to effect some sort of disambiguation between the terms Folk and Traditional with respect of the 1954 Definition of Folk Song as originally stated by the International Folk Music Council. As we have seen, the IFMC changed their name to The International Council for Traditional Music, to clarify their objectives with respect of (and I quote) traditional music, including folk, popular, classical and urban music, and dance of all countries.

Whilst we don't know the current status of the 1954 Definition with respect of the ICTM, we do know the current status of the 1954 Definition with respect of certain Folkies - which is to say that of a shibboleth, the questioning of which is heretical despite that fact that it does not adequately describe the sort of musics being performed in the name of Folk Music in the Folk Clubs, Folk Festivals etc. in 2009 - and, indeed, for some considerable time before that.

Having attended Folk Clubs, Folk Festivals etc. for some 35 years now, I ventured the suggestion that Folk Music was more a matter of Context than Content. This is no idle theory, but an observation of the sad fact (sad for a Traddy like me that is) that precious little of the music performed in Folk Clubs, Folk Festivals etc. is in anyway Traditional Music. Indeed, from what I have experienced, it can be anything from amateur stabs at operatic aria to (and it hurts me to even write it, believe you me) Hotel California (fruitcake anyone?)

Some posts ago I summed up my position by saying if life offers you lemons, you make lemonade. So I make an attempt, as objectively as possible, to define Folk along the lines of Folk Is What Folk Does - in other words, Folk Song is that which is sung by Folk Singers in Designated Folk Contexts such as Folk Clubs, Folk Festivals, etc. and includes pretty much any type (or genre) of music, or attempt at same, by musicians both amateur and professional, who evidently believe that Folk Music is a matter of context too - otherwise they wouldn't do what they do. Does Jez Lowe do Folk Music? What about Rachel Unthank? Is her cover of Robert Wyatt's Sea Song folk music? What about the unaccompanied version I heard some weeks ago sung by a female singer in a singaround who had never heard of Robert Wyatt but had assumed it was (and I quote) a proper folk song?

So these are the facts of the case. I have seen nothing in 35 years of attending Folk Clubs, Folk Festivals etc. to convince me otherwise. Indeed, interest in purely Tradition Song is often wholly anomalous in a Folk Context - and as a few people here have pointed out, there are depressingly few singarounds that actively welcome big ballads. Indeed, at one Folk Festival we regularly attend, there is a session devoted exclusively to Ballads which follows on from a general singaround mid-way through the Saturday afternoon in the same bar. I have never seen a room empty so quickly as when the announcement is made that the Ballad Session is about to commence. Once I heard the comment (from an otherwise respected singer of traditional songs) that singing Child Ballads was a bit dodgy with the present concerns of Paedophilia. I kid ye not.

So - if life offers you lemons, you make lemonade. Which is all I'm attempting to do here by the way, to take a look at this thing we call Folk Music as an empirical phenomenon of human music making and how it might differ from other musics. In many cases the only difference is that it calls itself Folk Music, which is telling in itself and leads one to consider if it can really be so simple as a matter of designation. I look a bit deeper and see there are other differences afoot; a certain philosophical mindset perhaps that might will any music to be Folk Music simply by saying it is so, and a certain something I have no hesitation in calling Cultural Autism which many Folkies and Traddies (myself included) suffer from to a greater or lesser extent.

One clear manifestation of this autism is a fear of change and a need for clearly defined boundaries; a lack of personal security and a deep seated need for belonging which exists, paradoxically, alongside ones status as a resolute outsider. In The Tradition we often find the collective meme being safeguarded by the most idiosyncratic of performers - Davie Stewart is a classic example of this, known as The Galoot even by his own community. In the old songs, the traditional songs, we find a tangible link to a vanished past; it's comforting, reassuring; and for many this is all they want - comfort and reassurance - and who can blame them? Maybe it's these same individuals who then go on to write their own songs about the past - idiomatic laments and paeans that still might pass as Folk Song (though not by the 1954 Definition) and might be sung heartily in singarounds. I think of Scowie's When All men Sing as a near perfect example of this. When I sing this in good company, I cease to exist; my corporeal body is absorbed into a greater human whole much as it might be in the singing of Sorrows Away or Blood Red Roses.

Nostalgia is a persuasive beast. It might make those same singers throw in the occasional bit of pop music from the past, or some Dylan, or whatever; something special to them, something they want to bring into the fold in the name of Folk, and something which becomes a Folk Song simply because it embodies a similar level of meaning to the singer as might any old traditional chestnut. Did I mention the chap who once sang his own composition which he introduced as a Folk Song about Rock n' Roll? To me, that says it all really.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:47 AM

The folk process, by any but the most dogmatic definitions, has shortened immesurably since 1954. The expansion of popular music on the radio, the accessibility of classical works from the auditorium through tv, radio, magazines; jazz, funk, soul, house, all forshortened with their own myths, histories, heroes, gods and demons.

"What about Rachel Unthank? Is her cover of Robert Wyatt's Sea Song folk music?" SS

Rachel Unthank's Sea Song is Meta-Folk but folk nontheless. It is self-conscious second generation performance revival folk with Prog Rock sensibilities but contains all the audible ingredients that mark it out as folkish.
If the tradition connects us with an imaginary or real musical Eden, technology has allowed new creation myths, some so close to the origin as to be undetectable, some only covering themselves with the glamours of the garden, other's with no more than a passing salute. Technology gave us the time machine to glimpse the past and see it all at once 'as in a poet's eye.'
An audience can connect with its heritage singing, "partly fish, partly porpoise, partly baby sperm whale" as with When All Men Sing.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:21 AM

It is self-conscious second generation performance revival folk with Prog Rock sensibilities but contains all the audible ingredients that mark it out as folkish.

I find it a lot easier to recognise the sound of a traditional song than to follow you into this thicket of qualifications and corollaries.

Let's start at the end: all what audible ingredients? Can you list them? Which of them are essential to mark a performance out as folkish? Can a Designated Folk Context host performances which are un-folkish?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:27 AM

Heh heh - interesting idea there, Pip. If a Non-Folk performance enters a Folk Designated Context, does it become Folk? and if enough Pop-Song performances enter a Folk Designated Context, does it then become a Pop-Designated Context?

Dance, Angels, Dance - the pin's head is big enough.

Remember Carrollian logic questions: what It is may not be the same as what you call It. And who will care?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:54 AM

"this thicket of qualifications and corollaries"

Thicket; nice folk word Pip.

"It is self-conscious second generation performance revival folk with Prog Rock sensibilities but contains all the audible ingredients that mark it out as folkish."

Try the easy version then: "self-conscious".

All modern performances of folk, traditional or in-the-style-off are one would hope, self-conscious. Unless you believe dangling a leather tankard and hooting 'as I roved out' means you've done any actual roving lately or the pub ran out of glasses.

"second generation"

The Unthank girls family 'tradition' is the folk revival, especially sea shanties IIRC. They therefore have the sensibilities and material of that revival and being modern geordie lasses, a good ear for pop and rock too. Not Venus from the clamshell perhaps, but a fair chance of doing justice to traditional material.

"prog rock sensibilities"

My guess is progressive and experimental blues rock, to give it a more descriptive title, formed a fair bit of many folkies musical education. Remember we're talking folk revival here, a fashion, a response to the political and social climate of the 50s and 60s, not mainlining tunes heard on mother's knee from her mother's mother. On that basis why not sing Wyatt?

Rather than list which audible ingredients suggest it is folk can you list the musical factors than means it isn't? We're talking things you can hear and repeat remember, not stuff that has to be checked in a library; stuff of the common man and woman not intellectuals, taxonomists or PhD students.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 08:49 AM

" ... and a certain something I have no hesitation in calling Cultural Autism which many Folkies and Traddies (myself included) suffer from to a greater or lesser extent.

One clear manifestation of this autism is a fear of change and a need for clearly defined boundaries; a lack of personal security and a deep seated need for belonging which exists, paradoxically, alongside ones status as a resolute outsider."

I prefer the word 'alienated' to 'autism'. I find myself alienated with respect to much modern, popular culture - which seems shallow and lacking in 'texture' to me. And I have been thus alienated since childhood. I distinctly remember, in the mid 1950s, my younger self's delight in the English traditional songs that we learned at school and my antipathy towards the alien rock-'n'-roll which was just beginning to flood our culture. My main motivation for contributing to threads such as this is to argue against the replacement of traditional-type music by rock-based 'pap'.

As for "fear of change" - yes, I'm terrified of change - I freely admit it. And that's because of the havoc that I've seen wrought on the world by uncontrolled, unregulated change in my lifetime. I think that, from now on, it should be the duty of every responsible citizen to resist change with all of their might!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 08:57 AM

Hi Shimrod - I also remember, even now, much-loved songs I learned at school, and I still like them. I also remember Elvis singing "That's All Right Mama" and "Hound Dog" and thinking "Yes!"

One doesn't have to replace the other. Elvis also had his roots - they may not be our roots, but they're worthy ones, just the same. There's something very seductive about the rhythms and riffs of 50s rock'n roll and rockabilly - so much so that I played it for 13 years. Didn't stop me going to folk clubs, though. :-)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:06 AM

"As for "fear of change" - yes, I'm terrified of change - I freely admit it."

It would be easy to take the piss out of that response but it's an attitude that runs deeply within some sectors of the folk community and one should recognise that. It is still wrong headed. Nostalgia for a golden age, politically, socially, musically is based on myths and elegies are by and large, mischief.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:32 AM

I hope I didn't give the impression that I was taking the piss either. It's every person's choice to position themselves where they want to in society, and who am I or anyone else to comment on that?

I also have a fear, that I will get so stuck in my ways, in likes and dislikes which have accumulated over the years, that I end up refusing to listen to - and thereby miss out on - things of interest and value and substance. My son - 30 years younger than me - has evolved his own musical tastes, many of which are not mine and some of which are. What pleases me beyond measure is that, when he comes to visit, he brings music with him on CD, or on his laptop, that he thinks I might be interested in listening to. It's his taste - not mine - and what amazes me is that, when I listen to it, I find something interesting and worthwhile in more than I expected of it.

When the day comes that I can't do that, then I'll give up.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:38 AM

"I find myself alienated with respect to much modern, popular culture - which seems shallow and lacking in 'texture' to me."

Shimrod, I assume you are using threads like this to help you work out your problem, which based on your last post is evidently a singular issue that you need to resolve. Your resistance to change is obviously a personal issue as evolution continually bring change and the way we adapt to it will progress. You statement about "the havoc that I've seen wrought on the world by uncontrolled, unregulated change" indicates you are blinding yourself from the positive changes that have improved our condition and instead focusing on the issues that have yet to be resolved. You come across as dwelling on the negative and not allowing yourself the opportunity to be positive.   Good luck with working it out.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 11:12 AM

I hesitate to intrude when you seem to be enjoying yourselves so much, but there is something in what Shimrod says without assuming he "dwells on the negative". For decades, in every field, especially work and technology, there has been the implicit assumption that new=improved. It is hard to keep detached from that, as every advertisement bellows it constantly. But the truth is, paraphrasing Bob Copper in "Early to Rise", you shouldn't adopt the new without at least considering what you are losing from the old. For lots of things, we are carried along by the change whether we like it or not, but that does not diminish the past.

As it happens, I'm quite happy listening to Bellowhead et al, and can see something of value in it. But I can also - admittedly after applying some patience to the mix - see something of value in this. (Wait for the singing!)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 11:36 AM

"For decades, in every field, especially work and technology, there has been the implicit assumption that new=improved."

This is not "work" or "technology" - this is art and heritage. Change does not necessarily mean "replacement" in this area, but rather "addition".

With all due respect to Bob Copper, the idea of change in music is not meant to replace what already exists. The works of Michaelangelo are on view for all to enjoy and learn from, but we do not want to discourage artists from creating their own. It is the same thing with music.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 12:00 PM

I can't see any allusion anywhere to a credo which says that new necessarily equals better either. Nor would I ever suggest replacing something old with something new for its own sake - let new and old exist side by side and take your pick. What I never want to do is to refuse to listen to the new on principle - simply because, if I do so, I may actually be losing out on something worthwhile.

Just take a look at 1954, the year in which, not only was the 1954 definition of folk music published, but also the year in which:

* The first public demonstration of a machine translation system was held in New York at the head office of IBM.

* The first nuclear-powered submarine, the USS Nautilus, is launched in Groton, Connecticut by Mamie Eisenhower, then the First Lady of the United States.

* President Dwight Eisenhower warns against United States intervention in Vietnam.

* CBS television broadcasts the See It Now episode, "A Report on Senator Joseph McCarthy," produced by Edward R. Murrow.

* Bill Haley and His Comets release "Rock Around the Clock"

* Roger Bannister becomes the first person to run the mile in under four minutes.

* World's first nuclear power station opens in Obninsk, near Moscow.

* In Memphis, Tennessee, WHBQ becomes the first radio station to air an Elvis Presley record.

* The Fellowship of the Ring, the first part of The Lord of the Rings, is published in the UK.

* The U.S. Navy submarine USS Nautilus is commissioned as the world's first nuclear reactor powered vessel.

* The Viet Minh take control of North Vietnam.

* Texas Instruments announces the first Transistor radio.

* The first human organ transplant, of a kidney, was performed by Doctors Murray and Harrison at Peter Bent Brigham Hospital in Boston.

Quite a year! It's interesting to see the simultaneous emergence of the transistor radio, Presley and Bill Haley - signs of things to come. When Elvis and Haley exploded on to the UK scene in early '56, the soundwaves from that reverberated around the nation's youth. The beginnings of conflict in the Far East, the kidney transplant and the rise of nuclear power are also signifiers of things to come. Whether any or all of these new things is good or bad is in the mind of the beholder.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 12:10 PM

I'd agree with that, as a matter of principle, but in music (and indeed some of the other arts) we do seem to find it difficult to do that without disparaging those that differ from Our Personal Preference.

As to whether we are talking about work or not, that depends. In my case, I rarely sing in any sort of club, but have done. Most of the time I sing it is purely for my own entertainment and for the displeasure of evesdroppers. But for Bellowhead, et al, it is certainly work in the sense of an activity undertaken for monetary gain. And who can blame them if they look at what sells best and adapt their style to suit it? As I was once told at during some art lectures, you must never lose sight of the fact that Rembrandt's main goal was to earn enough to survive.

Anyway, I'm interested in people's reaction to the link I posted. That is folk in the 1954 sense (albeit with microphones); I doubt if many UK or US folk clubs would give them a half-hour slot.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 12:21 PM

One of the benefits of technology is art is simultaneously on record for all to enjoy. There is no displacement, supplanting or superseding of previous forms; they're all on text, youtube, tape and every conceivable digital format.

You can hear a shanty and follow it through to the music of British Sea Power if you were so inclined, then all the way back to shantys by a different route, being informed and entertained along the way.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 12:32 PM

Then Be VERY afraid!!

There's This

The Louder and Brasher Version of the Same Thing

No more going back I don't think


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 12:51 PM

DMcG

But for Bellowhead, et al, it is certainly work in the sense of an activity undertaken for monetary gain.

I'd given up commenting on this increasingly surreal thread, but, I happen to know some of those guys and that is a gross slander on people who are deeply committed to what they do. They are fortunate to have the talent to be able to make a living, although probably not a luxurious one, doing what they love.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 12:59 PM

Well I perform, as a solo and in a couple of bands, and we play for money PLUS!! we pay for the love of it. Snail's right, the pedigree of Bellowhead is impeccable, witness Benji Kirkpatrick, you've asleep in some isolated cave if you don't know who Benji's dad is.

DMcG - if that's the best you've got......


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 01:23 PM

Suggesting that Bellowhead, RU and the Winterset, Kate Rusby or any successful folk artist do what they do for monetary gain is plain barmy.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 01:53 PM

Besides everything else, the profit margin, if any, would be extremely low for the 11 piece band (or a small European country, as some have described them) that is Bellowhead. Once more illustrating that DMcG's comment makes absolutely no sense at all.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 02:13 PM

SS, we both agree that the music played at folk clubs, festivals etc is much broader than traditional folk. However, your reaction to that appears to be to re-classify the non-traditional music as "folk". I prefer to recognise it for what it is: traditional, "folk", or something else.

I don't think your approach is helpful, for two reasons. Firstly, it tells us nothing about the music, only about what the venue or event chooses to call itself. Secondly, I think it is actually damaging, since it validates the non-folk stuff and encourages people to perform it at folk clubs, when they should really be finding more appropriate outlets for their music.

I am confused by your attitude to this. In your earlier posts you appeared to celebrate the fact that your local club encourages people to play any kind of music, and yet in your latest post you appear to deplore the fact that so little traditional music is to be found at folk clubs and festivals.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 02:44 PM

Sorry to all, especially to the players in Bellowhead, and those who think I have offended them. That was certainly not my intention. I was not meaning to suggest that they they were only concerned with money, nor that it was even necessarily that important to them. I was simply meaning that they will consider factors - such as the entire visual impression - that simply don't apply to such as me who almost never sing in public. Being professionals they will present such things in a way that is as appealing as possible, and factors like this - lighting, backdrops and so on - are influenced by the current fashion.


Again, apologies if I phrased things in an offensive way.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 02:52 PM

"lighting, backdrops and so on - are influenced by the current fashion. "

True, but I think you also need to put things in perspective. Many of the traditions that were handed down were also influenced by the fashion of the time - or the circumstances in how the songs were sung.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 03:00 PM

The lighting rig on the youtube footage I flagged up was at Shepley festival. It was the same one for every artist, in a freezing tent - the audience had thermals and coats. Rock and roll, it wasn't.
There were performers in the traditional, singer-songwriters, bands, duets and solo. There was music that ripped your heart out, stamped on it and threw away the left-overs and with Bellowhead, stuff that made you want to do a hornpipe.

Keeping Bellowhead on the road must be a labour of love. I shall look forward to seeing them at Holmfirth.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 03:12 PM

I am confused by your attitude to this. In your earlier posts you appeared to celebrate the fact that your local club encourages people to play any kind of music, and yet in your latest post you appear to deplore the fact that so little traditional music is to be found at folk clubs and festivals.

I'm trying to be objective and dispassionate, Howard. For my personal (and polemical) feelings on the matter see my blog The Liege, The Lief and the Traditional Folk Song.

Irrespective of what I feel is the reality of the situation, which is what I'm trying to accommodate, and what, ultimately, this thread is all about irrespective of what the likes of Primadonna Firth has to say on the matter.

Anyway, here's Dido & Aeneas on BBC4 - an unexpected treat, though I saw it before back in the Purcell tercentenary year (1995). Maria Ewing is repulsive but she sings Dido like a demon and even though the setting looks like a bad Kate Bush video the music is, as ever, sublime - just about as sublime as the half hour of vintage Oscar Peterson footage that preceded it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 03:43 PM

I always forget what a fine bit of writing "The Liege, The Lief and the Traditional Folk Song" is. You need to lose the "as Nigel points out" line, though...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 03:46 PM

"One clear manifestation of this autism is a fear of change and a need for clearly defined boundaries; a lack of personal security and a deep seated need for belonging which exists, paradoxically, alongside ones status as a resolute outsider."

Hmmm, I'm one of those who think that traditional folk and contemporary music are different genres. I accept, for the most part, the 1954 definition as a good description of where this genre of music came from. I lament the fact that the concept of folk music has come to mean so many things that it means nothing. Oddly, I'm not afraid of change, I'm not autistic, and I don't have a need for clearly defined boundaries. I am something of an outsider, but I'm certainly not resolute (or particularly concerned) about it. I just like different things than most of the people around me.

I love traditional music when well played in the most "traditional" method imaginable, and I love it when well played with prog rock (or other) sensibilities (I do a fair bit of that myself). I dislike badly played music of any genre. I like a lot of contemporary music, and play a fair bit of that also, mostly rock, blues, and jazz. I confess to disliking most singer/songwriter music I hear. This is because so much of the lyrics are about the unremarkable emotional state of the songwriter, and so much of the music is bland. A good songwriter can still make my hair stand up, hit me in the gut, make me think, or whatever.

The quote above, and several others in this thread, seem to be saying that accepting the 1954 definition means a person is trying to tell others what to play, that they only like music if it's old, that all modern music is by definition inferior to all traditional music, etc. I'm tired of hearing that, especially since I've read every post in this thread, and almost everyone has been at some pains to make it clear that they're NOT doing any of that. Get off it, folks. Let's talk about music and stop making unfounded assumptions about other peoples' inner emotional landscapes.

Everyone plays the music they feel called to play, and enjoys the music they enjoy. No one thinks anyone should change their mind about that, or is stupid enough to think it's possible to do so.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 03:54 PM

You need to lose the "as Nigel points out" line, though...

I invoke the name of The Rover to ground me in the good sense of good influence thus moderated and inspired; he is, in many respects (and total respect) a guiding light in the all too mutable folk firmament.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:17 PM

"I love traditional music when well played in the most "traditional" method imaginable."

it dosn't get anymore traditional than:

Pete Flood (Bellowhead) - Drums, glockenspiel, stomp -box, FRYING PAN, KNIVES & FORKS, PARTY BLOWERS ,COAL SCUTTLE, clockwork toys, Casio VL-tone, megaphonic scratching.
I couldn't resist*LOL*


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:30 PM

Rather than list which audible ingredients suggest it is folk can you list the musical factors than means it isn't?

Not really, since I've never heard it. Besides, the assertion you made wasn't that it sounds vaguely folkish but that it "contains all the audible ingredients that mark it out as folkish". Serious question: what did you mean by that?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:34 PM

I don't think this "afraid of change" idea stands up, either. Afraid of losing something valuable, perhaps, but that doesn't sound quite so neurotic. Put it another way - is change always positive? If I say that I prefer the 1945 version of Labour Party values to the 'New' variety, does that necessarily mean I'm a hidebound old reactionary who needs to get hip to the programme daddy-o? I rather think not.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:54 PM

". . . the likes of Primadonna Firth. . . ."

Really, Sinister! Descending to taking cheap shots, then?

You seem to be saying that anyone who has a viewpoint a bit less maleable than Silly Putty, especially one that doesn't square with your own, is a "primadonna." If so, then take a good look in the mirror.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:57 PM

The bullshit factor has overwhelmed the discussion as usual. Nobody owns folk, let alone definitions of it. If 1954 makes people feel safe, that's their Alamo. Enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:20 PM

'Round and 'round the mulberry bush,
The monkey chased the weasel. . . .

They could be circumnavigating at 7200 rpm, but the mulberry bush seems to be staying right were it is.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM

The bullshit factor has overwhelmed the discussion . . . If 1954 makes people feel safe . . .

Rant:
Glueman, with all due respect, what the hell makes you think you have any insight into what makes anyone feel safe or otherwise, based on the contents of this thread? And what does anyone's security or lack thereof have to do with this discussion? Comments like this are extremely offensive when offered without invitation and without evidence. If you don't like the bullshit factor, cut the bullshit. If you don't want to talk about the music, please go away.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:37 PM

Despite the best efforts of Mr McGregor, Jemima Puddleduck and Peter Rabbit the Mulberry Bush grew wild and free, spread it's seeds, threatened to take over the neat lawns and herbacious borders, drove the head gardeners almost mad but is alive and well, flowing and dropping berries all over the place.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:39 PM

John P, nobody owns folk; not you, not me. It's hard but there it is.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:54 PM

Who said that they own folk music? I didn't hear anybody say that.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:00 PM

Don, you couldn't have been listening. It's written through the posts like Blackpool Rock. Just bite a little harder, it's there.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:26 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHQaUNeErVM


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:26 PM

Glueman, I've been following this thread right from the start, and no, I haven't been listening, I've been reading. "Owning" folk music and endeavoring to distinguish folk music from other forms of music are not the same thing.

One can tell when a thread has reached its sell-by date:   when the cheap shots and personal attacks start proliferating.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:40 PM

No shots from me, especially cheap ones. I utterly reject any attempt to impose theoretical limits on my traditions wherever they're from. If people accept that they'll get no problem from here.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:54 PM

John P, nobody owns folk; not you, not me.
It's written through the posts....


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Glueman, that was supposed to be funny, right? Oh, you were serious?? How tiresome.

Just for your benefit, and in the full knowledge that I'm being tiresome myself, here's some quotes from my posts on this thread. If you can find any indication that I think I own folk music (what's that mean, anyway??), I wish you'd tell me so I can learn something. If not, please stop casting unfounded aspersions.

By the way, I don't care much about defining folk music as a part of my playing. My only interest in definitions is so we can actually talk about the music.

I'm a big fan of inclusiveness and personal taste in music making, but not in definition making.

I gave up years ago on trying to maintain a definition of "folk song". I know that most people who use the term use it very loosely.

How interesting that, because I favor a less broad definition of the term "folk music", some folks seem to think I'm some sort of folk police. I've said it before and I'll say it again now: YOU SHOULD PLAY AND LISTEN TO WHATEVER KIND OF MUSIC YOU LIKE!!!! Clear enough? None of this is about what people should sing or listen to, what happens at folk festivals, whether or not a song is any good, or whether or not a singer has any value. It's about the definition of a word, nothing else. No real-world repercussions for anyone's music making or enjoyment.

As someone who has been accosted by the authenticity-snob folk police in real-world situations (like during performances), I would never tell anyone they were playing the wrong music or that they were playing it wrong.

It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not people should sing it, or where they should sing it.

I'm simply saying that there are two quite different genres of music encompassed by the "folk" label, and they are mutually exclusive.

No policing! Just a discussion of the definition of a word.

A good songwriter can still make my hair stand up, hit me in the gut, make me think, or whatever.

Everyone plays the music they feel called to play, and enjoys the music they enjoy. No one thinks anyone should change their mind about that, or is stupid enough to think it's possible to do so.


Sorry to be beating this over the head, but I'm getting tired of leaving threads that I'm enjoying because I don't want to put up with people engaging in name-calling and jumping to negative, unfounded conclusions. I will cheerfully confront this type of behavior in uncompromising terms.

Now, can we please talk about music?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:04 PM

Anyone who starts a thread with hahahahaha is neurotic. You were right about the tiresome list though.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:25 PM

Glueman,
Here's what I mean by uncompromising terms: You are behaving badly, sort of like a nasty child. You are insulting people and calling them names without any real reason to be doing so. You are rude. You are part of why Mudcat has acquired a bad name for nastiness. If you can't bring yourself to have an adult conversation, please at least stop inflicting yourself on the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:41 PM

I'm curious about folks' opinions about something that has been touched on in this thread, but not really discussed fully. What about traditional music that is played in a way, or in a place, that doesn't have any real part of the tradition that started the music? Full band arrangements of music that started as solo songs, performing on a stage with a PA system, using electric guitars and synthesizers, getting paid for it, that sort of thing.

My own definition of traditional folk, being musical-based rather than context-based leads me to say it's all traditional music, some of which is played in a traditional way and some of which isn't. Opinions?

Also, if we use the context as part of the definition, where do you draw the line? Is there a way to know the original "use" of the song? Has the same song been used in different contexts within the original tradition? What, really, is the traditional way to play a song, and how do we know?

What about the evolving tradition? I'm from the United States, and as such have no chance of ever being part of the original context for English traditional music. Does the fact that the same English songs are sometimes played slightly differently in this country mean they have left the tradition, or just that there are now new variants?

What about variants that occur in modern times? I sometimes hear distinct differences in my playing from my source version. Is that a new variant, or am I just playing a traditional song "wrong", or is it no longer a traditional song, since it's now different than anything that was ever in the original tradition? What about regional styles of Irish tune playing in the United States? Is a Kerry tune still a Kerry tune if folks in Oregon play it a bit differently than folks in Kerry, or is it now an Oregon tune?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:49 PM

You're confused John P. I disagree with you about the validity of the 1954 definitions. You conflate my attitude to that definition with a maverick approach to the tradition. I feel your approach to the tradition harnesses it to an agenda that's ultimately very destructive.

I didn't begin the rudeness, I found it surrounded discussions of the OPs title.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 08:12 PM

Give it a rest, glueman.

Interesting questions, John. I'm going to be busy for the rest of the evening, but I'd like to get back to examining that some.

In the meantime, here's a little rant I just had:

It strikes me that things have gone a bit nutso when a singer of traditional American songs, the son of two prominent American folk song collectors, and who has impeccable credentials of his own, contacts a local folklore society to inquire if they would be interested in sponsoring him in a concert, and they turn him down based on the fact that he is not a singer-songwriter. He doesn't write the songs himself.

What's wrong with that picture?

There are some really excellent songs being written by singer-songwriters. But, unfortunately, there is also a great deal of really miserable stuff. And interestingly enough, it is usually the poorer songwriters who are the ones who insist on calling their songs "folk songs." And it's pretty obvious that they do so in an attempt to stamp their songs with a distinction and respectability that they have not earned.

As I believe I said somewhere above, this is an example of Gresham's Law as it applies to things other than money

Considering some of the things that are being labeled "folk songs" these days, I sometimes feel motivated to try to distance myself from the label "folk singer" or even "singer of folk songs." It seems that the way the word "folk" has been used and abused within recent years, associating myself with the word "folk" tends to create a false impression of the kind of songs I sing.

(How's that for "primadonna," SS?)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:37 PM

Hi Don,
It fits the theme of this thread: a folklore society turning someone down because they are folkloric. The "Folk" part of the name I can almost put up with, given our language's current use of the word "folk". But perhaps they should leave off the "lore" if they want to have a concert series of modern folk.

Having finally been forced to accept that "folk" has taken on such a broad definition that it is meaningless, I fell back on "traditional folk", only to be told that pretty much the same broad definition can be applied to the word "tradition". What do we have to do, capitalize the words, to make it clear we are referring to a particular tradition: Traditional Music? Well, that still doesn't solve the problem when confronted by a traditional musician who is a singer/songwriter, the tradition in this case being a solo singer with a guitar who writes their own songs. No shit, I've heard this. What, does the fact that string quartets traditionally have two violins, a viola and a cello mean that they're playing traditional music?

Another problem with trying to pretend like it's a particular tradition when we say Traditional Music, of course, is that it's not any one tradition. Which brings us back to 1954, and part of why I find it useful; speaking of traditional music in this context is speaking to the process which produced it, not to the specific traditions or ethnicities from which it sprang.

So, having lost "folk" and having people trying to take over "traditional", we now are losing the "lore" from a folklore society. I know it's all just a matter of semantics, but it does leave me wishing it were easier to hang a label on it when people ask me what kind of music I play. I think part of what rankles is that these changes have been made, and are being made now, by people who ought to know better. In the name of inclusiveness, they are taking away part of the identity of a whole genre of music and the people who play it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 02:28 AM

Refreshing and new the way this thread has ended up, hey what?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 03:50 AM

All too familiar. Agree or suffer scorn. Respond and get ridicule. SS's "autism" with the greatest respect to those suffering it, is a perfect analogy. Sinister spends a great deal of time putting together consistent and logical explanations of how folk works on the ground, with intelligence and wit and more forbearance and humour than I could ever muster to be confronted by illogicality.

It comes down to the same old twaddle; folk is in danger, the tradition is being blurred, definitions are our guarantees, what about 'our' music. All complete bunk. No evidence whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 04:07 AM

Re John's post of 7.41 above. My own view is that when a full electric band (for example) takes traditional songs or music (from any tradition - this argument equally applies to all traditional musics) and cranks it up, works out new arrangements, takes it to a new audience etc, what they are doing is still playing traditional songs and music, but has nothing to do with folk. If this matters, which I really don't suspect it does. I also think if they are throwing some of their own tunes into the mix - written in a style of and displaying a deep understanding of and appreciation of the tradition they are working from (as opposed to in), this is a good thing and to be saluted and encouraged: especially if we accept that traditional musics are now about entertainment and enjoyment rather than a visible manifestation of some mystical process of transmission. Check out some of the brilliant French bands who create music based on their own regional traditions: they don't seem to have any difficulties with these issues (of course, there may be a French equivalent of Mudcat seething with conflicting passions about this...). I'd also say there was a world of difference between music written in the style of the tradition and most of the singer songwriter stuff and cover versions you hear at folk clubs (or other DFCs). Which is not a value judgement, just a statement.

Does anyone want some examples of what I'm talking about? It's all good stuff... Tenareze, for example


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 04:08 AM

Well, that's novel - two old codgers grumbling in a corner about all these upstart traddies and how they're ruining Mudcat...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 04:45 AM

It's interesting that this thread started out as a debate between those who believe that folk music is a limited and definable genre, with the 1954 definition being a good guide to the limits,and those who don't.

It has now turned into a slanging match between those who believe that folk music is a limited and definable genre etc. and those who insist on insulting them, baselessly accusing them of authoritarianism and speculating about their emotional states. I rather think that the second group have run out of arguments; perhaps we should stop now(?)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 05:05 AM

My notion is that Folk Song is a matter of context whereas a Traditional Song is a matter of definition. You can put a Traditional Song into any musical context (including folk, as does occasionally happen I believe) and it remains a Traditional Song. I'm not sure about traditional ways of performance however, because our culture doesn't have those sorts of parameters, thank God. I use a Turkish kemence / Black Sea Fiddle, not because it's Traditional to Traditional English (speaking) Song & Balladry, but because in some serendipitous moment a few years ago I discovered it to be the perfect instrument for me.

Whilst this sticks in the craw of anally retentive little fuckwits like Walkaboutsverse, I don't think anyone who cares about MUSIC is going to be too bothered by it - and if they are I might efer them back to a notion of Cultural Autism, which, although I mean it with genuine kindness, isn't something I'm exactly proud of personally.

I am proud that I was once a member of Rhombus of Doom however. There is a now a 25th Anniversary myspace page where you might enjoy the exquisite sounds we made back in the day.

http://www.myspace.com/rhombusovdooom

That's me on electric viola (and bass on Kallisti!)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 05:05 AM

Some of us are still trying to have civilised debate, honest, guv! Let's not stop the party just because a couple of people have had one too many... the occasional slanging match is merely a sideshow to the main event. Mudcat - even threads like these - is a paragon of decorum compared with some internet boards...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 05:25 AM

"...speculating about their emotional states"

IIRC correctly you volunteered the idea that change terrified you. It was a rare and honest insight. However as change is part of the human process the sensible thing is to engage with it. Any other approach is doomed to failure.

"perhaps we should stop now"

Perhaps, perhaps not. Have people reached an accomodation with the other's point of view?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 05:28 AM

Er - 601?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 05:45 AM

And no end of 404s.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 07:51 AM

SS, you haven't addressed my point, which is that your contextual definition tells us precisely nothing. If "folk" is what happens at a folk club, and (as you've also told us, apparently with pride) anything goes at a folk club, then what's the point of calling it anything? If exactly the same thing is taking place down the road at something which doesn't call itself a folk club, is that still "folk"?

To pick up on an earlier example, I don't believe that an operatic aria, performed half-heartedly or not, can be "folk". It is conceivable that it might be re-interpreted in a folk style, and that might make it acceptable to some folk audiences, but it still doesn't make it "folk". To draw a parallel with an earlier example of mine, Swan Arcade's version of "Lola" was acceptable to folk audiences because of the style, but that doesn't make "Lola" a folk song.

If you admit your would-be opera singer as "folk", what do you do when he turns up the following week with 20 of his mates and wants to perform "La Boheme"? You can't tell him it's not appropriate, you've already re-defined it as folk. But is that what your audience wants, or expects, to hear?

The reluctance of the folk world to draw boundaries means that it has become the remedial class for those musicians who don't play folk music but lack the talent, or more likely the inclination to work hard at their music, to be admitted into other venues. There are plenty of opportunities for amateur musicians, including brass bands, choirs, amateur orchestras and operatic societies. However most of these demand high standards of musicianship, and expect their members to work hard to achieve and maintain these. It's only the folk world which allows, in fact sometimes encourages, poor standards. It's bad enough when this applies to folk music, we shouldn't allow musicians from other genres to take advantage.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 08:21 AM

On another thread I suggested folk, like stadium rock when punk emerged, was using the same misplaced exemplars of musicianship and virtuosity to condemn the usurper. If any form puts musical skill at the service of the message and a makes a lack of it is no disadvantage to taking part, it's surely folk.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 10:59 AM

Some of you all seem to think that, because you play music from folk/traditional sources, or at least play music in places where others, that you are part of the traditions. If you get that idea out of your heads, then the dreaded "1954" is no longer a problem.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 11:22 AM

M. Ted,
I agree, although at least a couple of us here have been at some pains to say that we are not products of the tradition. I think, however, it would be interesting to pursue the question of whether we need to redefine the tradition for the modern age. The agrarian/working class society that was the source and conduit for this music is pretty much gone. Now we all use the internet, listen to CDs, perform music for money, live in the United States, and so forth.

Are we to say that the folk process has stopped, and that there can be no new variants of songs, no new transmission routes, no more polishing the rough edges of melodies? Or should we start with the body of music we all know as traditional, keep it in circulation, and start watching what sort of changes come about as a result of the music being in our society, instead of a society from the past?

Part of this, of course, would require that people learn the songs and stop looking at the music and listening to the CD. Anyone who constantly refers back to the source and tries to maintain its nuances in their playing is, in effect, saying that their source is the final version. An evolutionary dead end for that song.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 11:36 AM

Glueman,
I'm not sure exactly what you were saying there. Are you saying that lack of skill is, or shouldn't be, a deterrent to taking part in folk music? If so, I agree with you with some reservations. I think people who are out singing in public ought to take the time and effort to get good at it. Until then, I wish they'd stay home or be an audience member. Come to think of it, I feel the same way about all music, not just folk.

A big part of the appeal of punk music was the fact that it was a much-needed backlash against the disco/corporate rock that dominated the popular music scene at the time. The severe lack of musicality on the part of some of the practitioners was, for me, more a part of the message than a celebration of lack of skill. I also noticed that a lot of the punkers went on to actually become good musicians.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 12:18 PM

"It has now turned into a slanging match between those who believe that folk music is a limited and definable genre etc. and those who insist on insulting them, baselessly accusing them of authoritarianism and speculating about their emotional states. I rather think that the second group have run out of arguments; perhaps we should stop now(?)"

Well it really all boils down to two groups, those who actually play the music (which we did last night to great success)and those who are content with their "archives" and "libraries" and sitting around over (insert appropriate libabtion) and talking up a good gig.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Darowyn
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 01:17 PM

It seems to me that there are two ways of looking at the concept of definition.
I shall try to put this in value-neutral terms, so I'll stress that none of the classifications I use are intended to be insults, or compliments.

To some of the posters on here, a definition is handed down from an authoritative source, and should be respected because the the authority of the source is respectable.
With no derogatory implication, this approach can be described as authoritarian.

The underlying argument of Sinister Supporter's proposition is that definitions are a result of consensus. Thus a song sung in a context in which the performer believes is Folk is folk to that performer. Similarly, if I hear "English Country Garden" and think it's a folksong, (although deluded) I am, in my own opinion, attending a folk event.
The definition is democratic.

Now the big problem between the viewpoints comes from the use of the word "designated".
The authoritarians immediately assume that there must be an official designator to make the decision. The democratic advocates leave everyone to their own individual devices to designate the event folk or not.

Either view seems perverse to the holders of the other.
You are never going to agree, so shall we just sing a few songs now, hey?
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 01:22 PM

Got anything on Youtube or Myspace we can take a peep at, Rifleman? Cheers.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 01:26 PM

An excellent summary Darowyn.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 01:36 PM

Spleen Cringe.
we are filming out performances, and our bassist who doubles as our film editor (his real life job *LOL*)is working as time will allow, we hope to have a Youtube channel up and running by the end of May, if all goes according to plan. The we, by the way, is one of the bands I perform with


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 01:50 PM

Looking forward to it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 02:29 PM

One more small thing, someone back up yonder was going on about not being able to distinguish the tunes or something vis a vie Bellowhead, well here ya are as part of our public service:

The Sloe Gin Set: Frozen Gin / The Vinegar Reel / The Sloe

Frozen Gin composed by John Spiers
The Vinegar Reel composed by Jon Boden
The Sloe trad. arr. Jon Boden

couldn't resist, once more *LOL*


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 02:42 PM

Sorry Darrowyn, far, far too simplistic.
Most people I know and have worked with have based their conclusions on a whole heap of things; reading, personal experience in the clubs or in the field, listening to records, discussion and argument (such as this), or a combination of all of these and simple common sense.
To reduce all these to two camps just doesn't work.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 02:50 PM

To some of the posters on here, a definition is handed down from an authoritative source, and should be respected because the the authority of the source is respectable.
With no derogatory implication, this approach can be described as authoritarian.


Darowyn, thank you for putting that in value-neutral terms. It's appreciated, even if I have to say that, in my case at least, it is incorrect. I never heard of 1954 before a few days ago, I don't know who devised it and don't care, and I question authority as a way of life. I like 1954 because it is a useful description of a phenomenon that I have been aware of and involved with for a very long time.

That said, I do know people who take on the mantle of the tradition and can quote every authority to prove how right they are. Every group has its assholes. The only ones who are a real problem to me are the ones who want to tell me what I'm doing wrong while I'm actually playing music. Ugh!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 03:01 PM

"Sorry Darrowyn, far, far too simplistic."

But, of course..There's always someone or someones who want to make things more complicated than they actually are...typical!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 03:16 PM

Question:

I don't really 'care' about the definition. I have no issue with those who DO care about the definition. (Just to make that clear.)

It seems to me that the definition 'freezes' the meaning of what qualifies as traditional material, but also engendered within the definition is that the song is one that changes as it passes from person to person, area to area. I'm ok with that. However, how then does a person say that a song MUST be done this way or that way embrace that aspect of the definition?


("Do unto others as they would do unto you" is very different in meaning from "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.")

And other than for 'scholarly research', why should a traditional song be archive. The definition implies that the song will take its own course. Kinda like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle: The actuality of measuring the speed of something interfers with the speed of that being observed. Or the anthropological observence(sp) of a culture interferes with that culture and hence changes it.

Anyway, from one old fart to a few others, have a NICE day.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 03:17 PM

"But, of course..There's always someone or someones who want to make things more complicated than they actually are..."
Just as there are those who prefer soundbites to discussion.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 03:33 PM

Following Darowyn's succinct appraisal of the debate I'll attempt to state where I stand, rather than respond to individual posts and risk the sense being lost in accidental or deliberate misrepresentation.

The fiercest advocates of the 1954 definition generally believe the conditions which gave rise to the tradition no longer pertain because of the popularisation of commercial forms of music through commodification, technological changes and advances in communication. Although there are some inconsistencies in that position it is a reliable, even orthodox one to hold. It does however signal certain consequences - folk is not living in the sense that new texts can be mined, only developments from existing material can take place because the seam that informed it has been exhausted.
Enthusiasts for traditional material endeavour to keep these musical texts alive by playing them to other fans in the knowledge that the contexts for their original performance cannot be recreated, or even imagined fully. The music is not 'dead' because it can be performed but it's re-exposure is mediated by the sensibilities of the performer, the staging of it (clubs, festivals, etc) and the sensitivity and imagination with which the original material is handled.

The counter argument runs thus: folk's wellspring was an atomised and economically disenfranchised agrarian working 'class'. Either its subjects are so remote that performances are pure re-enactment and audiences forced to imagine the vicissitudes therein or the subjects are human and universal. If they are ubiquitous and its issues relevant, definitions are a barrier to what is a seamless and continuing populist form.
The two positions are polarised but consistent. Problematisation occurs through a number of factors. First, contemporary folk music is a revivalist form. The sutureless, unthinking, inter-generational accomodation of folk music had largely died out leaving material to be collated by those outside the culture which gave rise to it. Conclusions were formed at every level from a narrow range of 'heard' songs and an 'exoticisation' of both the performer and the material took place. Contemporary audiences know very little about how the material was perceived originally - was it serious music, did it have wide currency, was it gender neutral, was it thought of as coarse, unfashionable, political and so on.

Secondly, polemicists have aligned folk music with nationalism, left-field counter culture, a re-emergent peasantry, fashion and a variety of other hosts. Folk cannot be divorced from the cultural forces that mediate it, it is in harness to multiple meanings simultaneously.
Thirdly, commercial forces have 'plundered' the tradition causing resistance and fiercely guarded lines of meaning. Vying attitudes to what is irreducible have created an unstable and inherently conservative form with austerity valorised and process mythologised.

I'd like to develop these themes with regard to the OPs question but opera at the Met calls me....for the moment.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 03:52 PM

Darowyn, right off, your use of words like "authoritarian" and "democratic" (normally political terms, each with its own emotional baggage) in this context is loaded against what you consider "authoritarian."

The "authoritarian" viewpoint in question, such as the infamous 1954 definition, comes from those who are steeped in the material and know it as well as it is possible to know it: song collectors, ethnomusicologists, and folklorists. I will take the word of someone like Cecil Sharp or Alan Lomax a lot quicker than I will take that of someone who knows next to nothing about traditional folk music, but writes his or her own songs and wants them to be given instant acceptance and an immediate stamp of approval by the simple but deceptive expedient of calling them "folk songs." Or from someone who want to sing songs by Jacques Brel and finds he can get an instant audience by finding a "folk club" that is sufficiently "democratic" that it's very looseness constrains it to embrace anything that anyone cares to offer.

And—if one wants to sing and be listened to by others, one must earn the privilege by knowing the material, and performing it sufficiently well that the audience doesn't start looking around desperately for the nearest exit. "I don't have to be able to sing well because I sing folk songs," is simply unacceptable.

This doesn't mean one has to be able to offer competition to singers like Dmitri Hvorostovsky or Renée Fleming. Dave Van Ronk had a voice like a rusty hinge, but boy! could he put a song across!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 04:04 PM

A most interesting analysis Glueman. Looking forward to reading further elaboration.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 06:52 PM

Rifleman: those who actually play the music (which we did last night to great success)

And as I did this afternoon. We seem to be on the same side. Jolly good.

Darowyn - no, it's not about authority. It's partly about having a consistent, comprehensible and usable definition for a recognisable body of material, so that we can agree (in most cases) that song X is traditional and song Y isn't, and then get on with singing them (or not). I think the 1954 definition is consistent, comprehensible and usable, partly because (as Spleen said) it's all about where the material caem from: you can have a traditional song sung in a singaround, played in the Albert Hall or played in a ska-punk stylee through a Marshall stack, the 1954 definition doesn't care.

But mostly, I think, it's about whether we think the other two dimensions of the 'folk' definition Spleen mentioned - marketing and club performance - are fine as they are, or we think they're lacking a certain traditional something. Would you be happier if, on hearing a new album described as 'folk', you could safely assume there'd be some traditional material on it? Would you prefer it if, going out for an evening at a folk club, you could confidently expect to hear a couple of traditional songs? I'd answer Yes to both, and I guess some people would answer No. Ultimately that's what we're arguing about. It's an argument that's never going to be resolved; as I've said before, the only thing that keeps me coming back to it is trying to understand what an alternative definition of 'folk' might be.

I mean, is May You Never a folk song? If so, why? Does it depend on where and when and how it's performed? Was it a folk song when John Martyn recorded it, or has it become one since? Is it a folk song when someone who's never heard it plays the album for the first time? Say what you like about the 1954 definition, it's a lot simpler.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 06:56 PM

Re--Glueman at the Met: I hope that his seats are in the Orchestra--Otherwise, I am afraid that he might walk down the aisle and step off into the open air without realizing that there is nothing supporting him at all.

If his seats were in the Parterre or Grand Tier, he could easily injure himself or others, and I dread to think what would happen in the Balcony or Family Circle--


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 07:39 PM

Were I to go to a folk club and not hear any folk songs, una furtive lagrima might slowly trickle down my cheek.

(Glueman should get this, even if no one else does.)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 02:01 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Funp7JTWp2A.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 02:03 AM

The Above Mentioned Work


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 03:47 AM

I'd like both sides to clarify what they mean by a performance. Does the guy who unselfconciously "whistles while he works" ((c) Disney) give a performance? Or the one who, on climbing a hill, sings something for the pure joy of it? Or does there have to be an audience involved? You see, I suspect there are a great many people who sing without ever having the courage to give a public performance and while the 1954 definition does include these for traditional songs, I'd like to understand how the other proposed definitions include them - or even whether they do.

Before anyone raises the obvious point: yes, they could sing anything - traditional song, opera, Queen, the Beatles ... We don't need a label to *decide* what they choose to sing. But a label is helpful to *describe* what they choose if they want to tell this to others.

Also I think it would be necessary to make a distinction between the person singing for the pure joy-of-the-moment and the one who is conciously rehearsing for a public performance to be undertaken on some future occasion. But if that makes things a little complicated, I'd be happy to leave it on one side at the moment.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 05:27 AM

Re Whistling. My default tune setting is "the Cruel Mother/Carlisle Wall" with the tune used by Silly Wizard and Alasdair Roberts. My inability to whistle in tune creates a number of interesting variants and might be taken as evidence that the folk process is still alive - if not very well...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 05:32 AM

"Folk" long ago ceased to mean just "traditional" - Woody Guthrie was being described as a "folk singer" in the 1940s. (Is there a difference between American and UK usage? Did "folk song" ever mean "traditional" in the way it did in the UK, at least prior to the second folk revival?)

There can be no question (I hope) that "folk" includes "traditional". The question is, what besides traditional music can be considered to be "folk"? The OP has argued that anything can be "folk" if its performed in a "designated folk context". Leaving aside what is meant by "designated", this still leaves the problem of defining what is meant by a "folk context" - even if it is just a gathering together of people with intent to commit folk, this still demands some understanding of what "folk" means, which brings us back to where we started, needing some sort of definition.

If I see a CD labelled "folk", I don't expect it necessarily to contain traditional songs. I do expect to find songs which have some affinity with traditional songs, and/or performed in a style which has some affinity with either traditional or revival performance styles. I don't even necessarily expect to enjoy it, but the description "folk" gives me a pointer towards music which I'm likely to enjoy.

In reply to Pip Radish, I don't consider "May You Never" to be a "folk song" - in my mind that is still synonymous with "traditional". It is "folk" in the wider sense. A subtle distinction,which perhaps others won't agree with.

I am not so hidebound as to insist that "designated folk contexts" should put on only folk, whether meaning traditional or in the extended sense of the word. This is, after all, entertainment, not an academic exercise - if a performer wishes to occasionally throw in something from another genre, then I'm happy to tolerate that, especially if it's performed well and preferably in a folk style. But it shouldn't be necessary to pretend that it's folk, and it should be the exception rather than the norm.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 08:01 AM

My inability to whistle in tune creates a number of interesting variants and might be taken as evidence that the folk process is still alive

I realise that was tongue-in-cheek, Spleen, but if someone overheard you, thought "That's a catchy little tune" and whistled it themselves later, that would, to my mind, be a perfect example of the folk process in action today - and not a folk club or archivist in sight!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 03:23 PM

Were I to go to a folk club and not hear any folk songs, una furtive lagrima might slowly trickle down my cheek.

(Glueman should get this, even if no one else does.)
I think it was Douglas Adams who wrote that the world really dislikes a clever clogs...anyway...

Una furtive lagrima


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 03:28 PM

DMcG, good question.

Performance

The word "performance" has wide application, and in its broadest sense, just about anything one does can qualify as a "performance." But in the sense that I'm using it in above posts (3b, "a public presentation or exhibition") , it's an interchange between someone, a singer, actor, tap dancer, stand-up comic, or such, and an audience—whether from a concert stage or at a folk club, or in someone's living room, in which other activity stops to listen to or watch what that person or persons are doing.

If you're whistling while skipping down a country lane or if you're Ridi Pagliacci-ing at the top of your lungs in the shower, one could say that's a "performance," but that's not the sense in which I am using it. In these circumstances, you are not charging anyone to listen to you, nor are you demanding anyone's attention, you are doing what you are doing for your own enjoyment. You are your own audience. If the birds in the trees along the country lane look at you in horror and clap their wings over their ears, or if your upstairs neighbor just above your bathroom starts stomping on the floor and shouting "Shaddap!!!" because you're louder than an air raid siren and way to hell-and-gone off pitch, it doesn't really matter—unless the birds decide to dive bomb you with poop or the upstairs neighbor runs downstairs, crashes through your front door, pulls back the shower curtain, and punches you in the nose.

But if you are charging people to attend to what you do by asking them for money or by requiring their time and attention, then, to my mind anyway, you have an obligation to be worth asking people to fork over their money or spend their time and concentration on what you do.

Different venues demand different standards. If you're singing from the stage of Carnegie Hall or Royal Albert Hall, you'd damn well better be pretty good! But assuming that you are at a folk club (if I understand correctly what they're intended to be), or the Seattle Song Circle, or sitting around a table at a pub, or at an informal gathering in someone's home, if you are a beginner and you know only three songs, and have finally worked up the courage to try to sing them in front of other people, then more power to you! Give it a go! The people there will be (or certainly should be) tolerant, even if you blow it, and generally be encouraging and supporting. After all, if you keep plugging away, perhaps in a few years you will develop into a singer who is most enjoyable to listen to and can easily pack them into Carnegie and/or Royal Albert Halls at fancy ticket prices. They can always brag that they were there at your birth.

But before trying to perform, even in a "warm plunge" venue, learn the song first. Know the words, know the tune, try to learn something about the song (this will help you in knowing what it is you are actually singing about), and practice it by yourself until you have it down solid. Otherwise, even in that "warm plunge" venue, the folks there may not be all that tolerant next time, if you were obviously ill-prepared. And, believe me, lack of preparation is all too obvious!

Even if it's folk music.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 04:08 PM

In other words what you're saying is, be prepared in everyway before getting up on stage? ;-)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 04:53 PM

Exactly so, Rifleman. Especially on stage.

But this doesn't always have to be deadly serious. I know that there are a lot of people around who just want to sing for fun and have no particular wish for any kind of professional singing career. However, I would think that if a person enjoys singing at all, they would want to do it at least reasonably well.

And as to serious aspirations, I've heard it said that if a person doesn't enjoy practicing, they'd better reconsider any ambitions for a career in music.

####

As to the diversion into Italian opera, this is just a slightly self-indulgent display of the dazzling brilliance of my wide-ranging cultural awareness.

Una Furtiva Lagrima ("a furtive tear") is the main tenor aria from Gaetano Donizetti's opera, L'Elisir d'Amore ("The Elixer of Love"), the opera on Saturday's Metropolitan Opera broadcast, which for which glueman absented himself temporarily from this forum to listen to.

Briefly, the plot of the opera is that Nemorino (tenor), a likable but naïve country bumpkin, is hopelessly in love with a beautiful local girl named Adina (soprano), who apparently can't see him for dust. A charlatan, snake-oil salesman type (bass), passes through the village and sells Nemorino what he tells him is a love-potion, and says that if he drinks it, Adina will fall in love with him. Nemorino guzzles the "elixer of love" (which is actually a large bottle of cheap wine). He gets stinkin' drunk, and in his cups, he becomes thoroughly charming. At the same time, and unknown to him, he inherits a big wad of money. There are other plot complications going on, but this is the main thrust of it. Partly because of his newfound charm and partly because he's almost rich, all the local girls gather round him making goo-goo-eyes. While this is going on, he doesn't pay any attention to Adina, who really does care for him. He rouses a bit from his boozy state, and in a slightly more lucid moment, notices that while he was enjoying the attention of the other girls, a furtive tear trickled down Adina's cheek. He suddenly realizes that Adina, for all of her previous aloofness, loves him after all. The aria, una Furtiva Lagrima is the point at which he realizes this. Happy ending.

Luciano Pavorotti said that this was one of his favorite operas to sing. "It's all good fun and nobody dies!" he said.

But enough of this. Back to our customary jousting!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 05:27 PM

Howard Jones--Though you might not think of him that way--Woody Guthrie was a tradition/folk singer in the strictest, "1954' sense of the word. He learned folk/traditional music from his father, played and performed it in the rural community where he was born and raised, and became a traveling musician with the thousands of other Okies who were scattered by the Dust Bowl.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 07:47 PM

The main thing that calls songs written by Woody Guthrie into question as to their being "folk songs" is that we know who wrote them. But mitigating against this is that fact that when Guthrie wrote a song, he often took an already existing song and modified it to fit the story he wanted to tell.

Also, a good lesson for the current crop of singer-songwriters is that Woody figured that if he wrote enough songs (and I understand that he wrote over 1,000), at least a few of them might turn out to be pretty good just by accident if nothing else. And—if he sang a song for a bit and it didn't go over all that well, or if he eventually decided that it really wasn't all that good, he had no hesitation about tossing it into the round-file.

I had a good friend years back, an artist, who once remarked that "The most valuable tool that any artist has is his waste basket. And knowing when to use it!"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 04:44 AM

My comment about Woody Guthrie was simply intended to illustrate the point that "folk singer", and by extension, "folk song", has long ceased to mean "traditional". I don't disagree that Woody was undoubtedly working in a folk tradition and in a folk idiom, and indeed some of his songs can now be considered traditional.

I'm not trying to reclaim the original meaning. I'm simply arguing for some recognisable boundaries to what we now call "folk", while accepting that these will inevitably be a bit blurred and subject to some individual interpretation at the margins.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 05:05 AM

SS, you haven't addressed my point, which is that your contextual definition tells us precisely nothing..

I disagree, Howard - I think it tells us all we need to know.

If "folk" is what happens at a folk club, and (as you've also told us, apparently with pride) anything goes at a folk club, then what's the point of calling it anything?

Well - there must be a point, otherwise the word wouldn't have any value. That the word has value can easily be demonstrated so perhaps its meaning is its value? Certainly it has greater value that it does meaning, as, in effect, it can mean everything, and nothing, and yet it still has value. I see a Folk Club advertised and I know, pretty much, what I'm in for - and seldom am I surprised or disappointed because whilst anything does, indeed, go, there is an Familiar Overarching Living Kinesis which I feel, just possibly, might well be the very context of the thing and the willingness of those therein to engage with one other in a name of the principle of value, if not meaning, in which they are gathered.

If exactly the same thing is taking place down the road at something which doesn't call itself a folk club, is that still "folk"?

It wont be exactly the same because it's not being done In the Name of Folk. As I say, I go to such events from time to time and perform Traditional Balladry almost as a form of studied classical music, something along the lines of Piobaireachd perhaps, but it's not Folk Music, and it doesn't feel like folk either.

To pick up on an earlier example, I don't believe that an operatic aria, performed half-heartedly or not, can be "folk".

I have experienced otherwise. This is the thing with folk - it is, essentially, empirical; very much a matter of being there, or even seeing is believing. Same with Hotel California - it happens, I know it does, but these days I take it as a cue to head for the bar. I'm not saying it's good, all I'm saying is it happens.

It is conceivable that it might be re-interpreted in a folk style and that might make it acceptable to some folk audiences, but it still doesn't make it "folk".

In my experience folk audiences aren't in the least bit discriminating - except when it comes to Traditional Balladry of course. I've seen them giving warm appreciation to all shades of singer / songwriter schlock, piss-poor pop covers and Bob Dylan sing-a-longs, but bristle with barely repressed hostility when someone has the temerity to sing an unaccompanied ballad of a greater duration than 5 minutes.   

To draw a parallel with an earlier example of mine, Swan Arcade's version of "Lola" was acceptable to folk audiences because of the style, but that doesn't make "Lola" a folk song.

Please be so good as to define what you mean by Folk Style.

If you admit your would-be opera singer as "folk", what do you do when he turns up the following week with 20 of his mates and wants to perform "La Boheme"? You can't tell him it's not appropriate, you've already re-defined it as folk. But is that what your audience wants, or expects, to hear?

Again you're dealing in hypotheticals, Howard. Folk isn't a matter of hypothesises, it's a matter of experience. Folk is as Folk does. If it happens, then fine, but it never would. Just as Meatloaf isn't about the turn up and sing Bat Out of Hell - but Jim Eldon might, in which case it is very much folk music. Hold on - I've just had a vision of Jim Eldon performing La Boheme in its entirety...   

The reluctance of the folk world to draw boundaries means that it has become the remedial class for those musicians who don't play folk music but lack the talent, or more likely the inclination to work hard at their music, to be admitted into other venues.

Not true. I know a lot of fine & gifted amateur players & singers. In fact I don't listen to professional folk musicians simply because I don't have to - I know where to go to hear my favourite singers and players because they are right there in my favourite folk clubs. Granted there are lesser musicians and singers, but its never an issue - not with me anyway - and I wouldn't never be so inhumane dismiss anyone with the language you've used here. Shameful so it is.

There are plenty of opportunities for amateur musicians, including brass bands, choirs, amateur orchestras and operatic societies. However most of these demand high standards of musicianship, and expect their members to work hard to achieve and maintain these. It's only the folk world which allows, in fact sometimes encourages, poor standards. It's bad enough when this applies to folk music, we shouldn't allow musicians from other genres to take advantage.

When I say Folk Music is Defined by Context, I don't mean we get renegade tenor horn players sneaking in because they've been given the boot by the local brass band. I've never experienced anything like this. It's the Folkies themselves who do the borrowing, although I've known a few otherwise Professional Musicians who are also folkies - classical singers, for example, who might come down to the local singaround and sing a few ballads or traditional songs, and who might, if drunk enough, and with enough encouragement, sing something operatic. But never is it a matter of poor standards.   

Leaving aside what is meant by "designated", this still leaves the problem of defining what is meant by a "folk context" - even if it is just a gathering together of people with intent to commit folk

You can't leave Designated out of the equation - this is the Invocation of Folk that determines the context; it is saying that what will take place here will do so In the Name of Folk. Defining a Folk Context is, therefore, largely a matter of designation. From the available evidence a Folk Context is where Folkies gather to play and listen to live music of a number of possible genres which might fall under the umbrella of Folk Music simply because they're acceptable in a folk context.
   
this still demands some understanding of what "folk" means, which brings us back to where we started, needing some sort of definition.

Maybe Folk doesn't mean anything at all, or else, more likely, maybe it means all things to all people, though there is an evident consensus amongst Folkies that it must mean something otherwise they wouldn't use it. However, when one tries to explore what Folk might mean, one is directed to the 1954 Shibboleth which hardly suffices for the amount of music on offer In the Name of Folk in any given Designated Folk Context. So we move on to Folk as Philosophy, Folk as a Feeling, Folk an an Overarching but Essentially Meaningless Aesthetic, Folk as a Societal Opiate, Folk as Political Union, Folk as a Gathering of Similar but Essentially Disparate minds, or even Folk as Familiar Overarching Living Kinesis.

Essentially, it is my belief that Folk doesn't need a definition simply because, from the available evidence, Folk is quite happy to be undefined.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 06:50 AM

In my experience folk audiences aren't in the least bit discriminating - except when it comes to Traditional Balladry of course. I've seen them giving warm appreciation to all shades of singer / songwriter schlock, piss-poor pop covers and Bob Dylan sing-a-longs, but bristle with barely repressed hostility when someone has the temerity to sing an unaccompanied ballad of a greater duration than 5 minutes.

What I don't understand is why you're celebrating this situation.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 07:03 AM

Sinister Supporter

I've seen them giving warm appreciation to all shades of singer / songwriter schlock, piss-poor pop covers and Bob Dylan sing-a-longs, but bristle with barely repressed hostility when someone has the temerity to sing an unaccompanied ballad of a greater duration than 5 minutes.

I'd just like to say that, in getting on for forty years on the folk scene, I have never encountered anything like that.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 07:42 AM

What I don't understand is why you're celebrating this situation.

I'm doing so by way of facing certain realities concerning not only the condition of Folk Music in 2009, but also the condition of myself and my particular - ahem - specialism. Essentially it comes down to the people I know & love and what they represent and believe in; the music they play and the songs they sing, very few of which would hold up to the 1954 Definition but which are, nevertheless possessed of a rare and persuasive potency. The spirit of this is Folk Music, the experience of which can't be bottled.

If I had to choose one revival folk album as coming anywhere close to that spirit, that album would be Bright Phoebus which though it contains no traditional songs is possessed by the soul of the tradition which seeps through every word and note of the thing. If I had to choose one song from Bright Phoebus as being the core of the thing, that song would be Danny Rose which features Folk Musicians trying boldly to play rockabilly and coming up with something so surreal it beggars belief. On the other hand, however, one is hearing Messrs. Thompson, Hutchings et al unencumbered by their Folky Affectations, and so the music is theirs by cultural default, much as on the first Fairport album which is possessed of a sincerity entirely absent from the rest of their work. Here there is an evident paradox, whereby the less obviously Folk in terms of Form becomes the so much more satisfyingly Folk in terms of Content, and that Content is truer to the actual value of Folk Music than any affectation (or electrification) of Traditional Songs ever could be.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 10:46 AM

"I see a Folk Club advertised and I know, pretty much, what I'm in for"
How? So far you've given us everything between 'Come Into The Garden Maud' and 'an unaccompanied ballad of a greater duration than 5 minutes.'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 11:30 AM

PS
Are you taking this all in Bryan???
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 11:53 AM

I like and play all kinds of music. Play jazz, some rock, some "mighty wind" type songs but when I hear folk music I keep coming back to the basic common denominator. It's simple, accessible and the songs that remain are "singable". It's not abstruse, hip, convoluted, terribly sophisticated and the plain language is what EB White talked about in how to write.

It's not a cult.

It has nothing to do with 1954.

There is no "new" folk music. That's an oxymoron.

That said, there are some pretty good songwriters out there who attempt to write in the folk style. Some do pretty well. Others stumble into the folkwhiner category.

Steve Earle and Utah Phillips carry on that good honest kind of songwriting legacy.

One of the things I've observed is that folksongs tend not to be introspective or preachy.
They state the historical "facts" of the time, accurate or not.

They are not Modrin Psychological States Of Mind which gets old pretty fast.

The tried and true songs of yesterday are still with us because they have a universal
quality to them in their themes and accessibility.

Frank


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM

How? So far you've given us everything between 'Come Into The Garden Maud' and 'an unaccompanied ballad of a greater duration than 5 minutes.'

I might whisper that experience has taught me to temper my expectations somewhat, but whatever the material on offer there is a generality of familiar conviviality in which I feel well at home. There are exceptions of course, but I've never been entirely disappointed - not often anyway! I guess that's the quality that's kept me going back all these years.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 12:13 PM

"In other words what you're saying is, be prepared in everyway before getting up on stage?:

Again why is it I can say what has to be said in 16 words...and Carroll it's got bugger all to do wth sound bytes(the correct spelling ) it has to do with a bit of judicious self-editing, whilst putting ones thoughts down on paper, or in this case Mudcat. Anyway for the next few days I have to actually engage with the music, it's called practicing, and to arrane or should I say re-arrange a number or that will take the said tunes oout od the realms of "1954"


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 12:33 PM

"Designated Folk Setting"

"Familiar Overarching Living Kinesis"

"Invocation of Folk"

"I use corporeal in terms of empirical actuality"

Sinister Supporter, these are truly awful phrases, crimes against the English language.

"You can't leave Designated out of the equation - this is the Invocation of Folk that determines the context; it is saying that what will take place here will do so In the Name of Folk. Defining a Folk Context is, therefore, largely a matter of designation."

In other words, defining folk is really just a matter of defining folk. You will forgive me if I don't find this particularly helpful.

"Well - there must be a point, otherwise the word wouldn't have any value. That the word has value can easily be demonstrated so perhaps its meaning is its value? Certainly it has greater value that it does meaning, as, in effect, it can mean everything, and nothing, and yet it still has value."

I'm going to start calling you Sinister Jabberwocky if you keep going on with this sort of thing.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 01:51 PM

Jim Carroll

Sorry - want to respond but if I don't go soon I'll have to endure another wek of 60mph West Clare sea mist.

I think you were refering to my post of 24 Mar 09 - 11:48 AM. perhaps You'd like to go back and read it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 02:41 PM

I'm going to start calling you Sinister Jabberwocky if you keep going on with this sort of thing.

What is it with certain Mudcatters that they can't play nicely without resorting to abuse and name calling? There's been too much of that on this thread as it is. So please, Michael - if you've nothing constructive to add to the discussion, just stay out of it.

SS

PS - And it's Designated Folk Context.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 02:56 PM

"Again why is it I can say what has to be said in 16 words."

If I seem to be a bit verbose at times, Rifleman, it's because I have learned on these threads that if I don't plug absolutely every hole where a possible misinterpretation (either unintentional or deliberate, but mostly deliberate) can be crammed in, someone will try to tell me that I said something that I didn't say at all.

It's a Mudcat thread hazard that I've discovered from long experience at discussing topics upon which not everyone agrees.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 03:18 PM

Rifle
"arrane or should I say re-arrange a number or that will take the said tunes oout od the realms of "1954"
The correct spellings are 'arrange', 'out' and 'of' - in that order (if you mean what I think you mean).
Bryan
No; I was referring to the long running 'crap begets crap' argument - of which we have a fine example.
Tried to take the argument off-line so as not to nause up a good discussion.
SS
".....familiar conviviality "
Whoops - my mistake; I thought this was about a definition of folk song.
Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 03:27 PM

"Designated Folk Context"

That's even worse. No one I know talks about music this way.

'Sinister Jabberwocky' wasn't name-calling, it was a literary reference based upon your tortured prose and your uses and abuses of logic.

Again (feeling like a broken record, or a sample loop), your argument is circular and self-referential. The 1954 definition describes the processes by which folk music evolves. It's not where the song comes from, but what happens to it along the way. It can be applied cross-culturally. Your definition – 'Folk Music is anything that happens in a Folk Club' (I paraphrase) - does not seem to be an improvement, not to me anyway.

I thought our exchanges had been friendly so far. I'm not trying to be offensive, but I know that I come across that way sometimes.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 03:33 PM

I think we are trying here to simultaneously describe and define folk. The two things aren't the same. References to, for example, a folk "style" are pretty meaningless.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 03:35 PM

What is it with certain Mudcatters that they can't play nicely without resorting to abuse and name calling?

Um, "Primadonna Firth"?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 03:44 PM

Here there is an evident paradox, whereby the less obviously Folk in terms of Form becomes the so much more satisfyingly Folk in terms of Content

Mu. I'm starting to think La Easby has a point (although I h*te those wr*tch*d *st*r*sks) - the problem we've got here is actually the word 'folk'. If you'd said, for example, that you prefer Fairport's first album, even though it's not traditional material, because it sounds more rough-edged or full-on or heartfelt than the others, then we could have talked about the music. If you say that it's more *folk* even though it's less *FOLK*, and yet somehow it's *F*o*l*k* in a way that transcends f/o/l/k, then we just end up talking about words.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 03:47 PM

I'm starting to think La Easby has a point - the problem we've got here is actually the word 'folk'

EUREKA!

(Or should I say E*R*K*? Or *U*E*A?)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 04:29 PM

SS,
Having somersaulted somewhat clumsily away from your statement that you 'know what you are in for' in a folk club, can I draw the conclusion that, given your definition (sic) you haven't the slightest idea what you would find there (pig-in-a-poke keeps springing to mind). If so, doesn't that take away my right to choose what I would like to hear - especially as I think I know what a folk song is, I have hundreds of friends who think they do, and if any of us are in any doubt - well - there's always 'The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs' to fall back on.
The nonsense of all this is, if it were ever to be taken seriously (and we burn all the books mentioning the word), it would seem that I could go down to the Dog and Duck Folk Club and listen to songs that might be booed off the stage at the Pindar of Wakefield Folk Club.
What I could (or not) expect could depend on the organisers' personal taste, Judgement, knowledge, or lack of any or all of these - or even what he or she had for breakfast that morning.
This is 'singing horse' writ silly - or as Humpty Dumpty was reported to have said:
"When I use a word, it means what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less".
And what ARE we going to do about the related disciplines? Are we going to declare UDI from folklore, folk dance, folk tales, folk customs, folk music?
The term 'folk' did not originate with the IFMC in 1954, but was coined as 'folklore' by William Thoms in 1846 - 160 odd years old and still going strong! It was adopted in relation to song some time around the beginning of the 20th century and incorporated into the 1954 definition because of the common origins shared by all the disciplines I've just mentioned.
As I said earlier in this thread, none of this nonsense makes the slightest difference in the long term.
Folk song is fully documented and will survive long after the clubs have distorted and diluted themselves out of existance and all the hangers-on have moved away to find another peg to hang their musical hats on.
Somebody mentioned the term 'democratic' earlier. Personally I can't think of anything more George Orwellish than to sit back and allow a tiny splinter group to re-write the dictionary to suit their own lack of imagination.
'Tradition and folk different'
No they're not; they are two sides of the same coin - folk referring to the origins of the songs, tradition to the transmission and filtering process that made them what they evolved into - joined at the hip.
'The word 'folk' has pretty much been left for people to use as they please'
Only within the narrow Freemasonry of the folk clubs – and not universally there, but only where personal tastes and interests have made it convenient to have it so. Elsewhere, where it is used, it still retains its meaning - want a list of books, articles, collections of music, dance, folktales, folklore, customs.... which still sit comfortably with the term in its original sense – can't wait for the huge J M Carpenter Folksong Collection to see the light of day.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 05:26 PM

Thank you, Jim. Thank you. And thank you again.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 06:38 PM

Um, "Primadonna Firth"?

A justified retaliation given DF's somewhat magisterial approach to matters of philosophical absolutes, a vanity which extends so far a put himself (and M.Ted) on a par with (and I quote) Aristotle, Socrates, and a whole pantheon of logicians and philosphers. I might even add a sic here, in honour of the pedantry embodied by DF himself, however so heartened I might be that even He might make the occasional mistake.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 07:29 PM

Got at you a bit, eh, Sinister?

If you will reread the context within which the remark was made, you will see that I was merely citing the principles of rational debate laid down well over two millenia ago and which have proven useful in arriving at a conclusion that will reflect, as much as is humanly possible, what is going on in the real world.

Even when one finds that conclusion is at odds with what one would wish it to be.

Some folks find this sort of approach far too restricting because it frowns on the ad hoc redefining words in order to slither, serpent-like, through the thorny thicket of the rules of logic in an attempt to dupe others into accepting the ridiculous.

Perhaps if you acquaint yourself with the works of the ancient Greek philosophers I referred to, you will see that I am merely reiterating what they said, not setting myself on the same level. Hence,the error of your characterizing me as a "primadonna."

And the fact that you admit that this characterization is a "retaliation" speaks for itself.

Have a beer and simmer down a bit.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 08:04 PM

Don, mate, calm down! The man's simply attempting to describe and understand what he sees when he visits a folk club in the UK. In doing so, he's putting forward the not-that-controversial idea that "f*lk" is what you've got, rather than what you want. The traddies are a minority within a minority. That's not an attack on traditional folk music (if it was I'd be guilty of self-loathing, as a bit of a traddie myself). It's the reality of what's out there. We can piss and moan all we like, but as Canute demonstrated, we can't turn back the tide. It's been coming in for about fifty years! I'm just glad there is a small but healthy scene of young people singing and playing traditional music (not always to my taste - some of them can be a little anodyne) that exists on the festival scene, the arts centre circuit and parts of the folk club scene. I'm glad that there are troopers like Dick Miles and Keith Kendrick and Brian Peters (to name but three) out there. And I'm also glad that there are singarounds like my local at the Beech where I can hear and participate in mainly traditional music once a fortnight and enjoy the company of some fine (and some not so fine, but that's life) singers. But that doesn't escape the fact that at the popular well attended local folk club we have near us, you'll hear loads of homemade music that the players, singers and listeners happily call folk... yet nary a traditional song between them. We can stand around grumping about how "that's not folk" or we can mount pickets and write letters or we can piss on their chips in whatever way we can... or we can just accept that if they want to call what they do folk, that's okay. No-one's getting hurt. The traditional songs and ballads and tunes are still there. We can still sing them, play them, study them - whatever we want to do. All we have to do is let go of that pesky, confusing, meaningless little four letter word... we don't even need it any more.

And we don't want to end up like those sad individuals who still haven't got over the fact that gay now describes a sexuality not a mood.

Meanwhile, I want to second Rifleman, way up this thread, who gave us a timely reminder that listening to and participating in music is supposed to be fun.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 08:38 PM

Don't need to calm down, Spleen, I'm fine.

The opening salvo in this little exchange was the descent into personal put-downs, and I will no longer participate because it has degenerated to a slagging match. Sinister may be a very fine fellow in all respects, and judging from what I've seen of his work on YouTube, he does some quite interesting stuff. Whether it can be called "folk" or not is certainly debatable, but frankly, I'm not too sure that the outcome of that debate one way or the other is worth the time an effort.

And again, from the impression I get of English folk clubs, at least on these threads, I think I'll just stay where I am. I do, however, hear far different reports from people I know who have been to English folk clubs. But perhaps not the same ones you folks frequent.

I still maintain that the 1954 "definition" is a description of what is rather than an ironclad rule about what ought to be, and I personally can't find much fault with it--save that there are people who get bent out of shape if something they cobbled together two days ago falls short of fitting the description, and they insist on having instant acceptance of their efforts as a "folk song."

You can't just sit down with your ball-point pen and a sheet of paper and write a folk song. It just ain't done that way, never has been, never will be.

I might add at this point that since when does singing songs that fit right in with the 1954 definition mean that it's not fun to do so? I think it may be that there are people here on this very thread who just don't really like folk music!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Peace
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 08:43 PM

I like a few of them. But then I can't recall EVER liking the total volume of any type of music.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 08:54 PM

I've read every post on this thread, some very well thought out, others reactionary. There are far too many egos involved, and too much mindless verbiage.

So now, let's stir the pot with another definition of folk song from Mark Twain:

"A folk song is a song that nobody ever wrote."


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:12 PM

I don't mind being set on a par with Artistotle, Socrates, etc--with study and discipline of thought, one may ultimately contribute new ideas to the philosophical canon--you can't contribute to the folk/traditional canon that way though.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:32 AM

666!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:39 AM

Nero, is that you?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:48 AM

"I will no longer participate because it has degenerated to a slagging match."
Hope you're not serious about this Don.
'Sinister Jabberwocky'
Personally I've always found them pretty cuddly.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:53 AM

"I think it may be that there are people here on this very thread who just don't really like folk music!"

I see no evidence of that Don. There may be a few who believe music isn't about pleasure however.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:02 AM

"I can't recall EVER liking the total volume of any type of music."

Amen to that! This could also apply to the total volume of music created via a particular process, or the total volume of music sung in a particular context. There again, does anyone like a song just because it's traditional? That would be plain weird...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:22 AM

"There again, does anyone like a song just because it's traditional? That would be plain weird..."SC

A point I've tried to make repeatedly. Exclusiveness of this kind does suggest a condition or mental state everyone is anxious to distance themselves from. I can't get past the barminess.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 05:11 AM

SS, you and I seem to be talking about different things. I have been attempting to establish some parameters for determining whether or not a piece of music is "folk". You appear to be talking about an attitude of mind.

The difficulty I have with this approach is that in order for people to get together "in the spirit of folk", or for them to decide to designate their event as a "folk" club or "folk" festival, or even if just in their own mind what they are doing is "folk", they must have some concept in their mind of what "folk" is. It cannot be because of the type of music being played, because according to you folk music is defined by the context, not the other way around. So what distinguishes these events from other people getting together to play or listen to music in more or less formal contexts who would put a different label on what they are doing? What is it that makes them decide to label these events "folk"?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 05:33 AM

Jim Carroll

No; I was referring to the long running 'crap begets crap' argument

...and quality begets quality. Your point?

I really wish you'd read and respond to my post of 24 Mar 09 - 11:48 AM.

"arrane" is the Manx for song by the way.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 05:42 AM

Exclusiveness of this kind does suggest a condition or mental state everyone is anxious to distance themselves from.

If nobody is willing to admit to suffering from this condition or mental state, might it perhaps be that nobody does?

I've made my own position very clear: "I know from experience that traditional music is likely to interest me and that singer-songwriter work is likely to bore me. Some traditional performances are arse-achingly boring, and some singer-songwriters are stunning, but (for me) the balance of interest vs boredom is mostly the other way round."

Of course, I also like loads of music that can't be described as either 'traditional' or 'singer-songwriter'.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 05:48 AM

Spleen Cringe

Don, mate, calm down! The man's simply attempting to describe and understand what he sees when he visits a folk club.........

Excellent post, Spleen. I would only say that I refuse to give up the word "folk" just because others use it differently.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:20 AM

What is it that makes them decide to label these events "folk"?

I will leave it to our pantheon of Great Philosophers to answer that one, Howard. All I've done here is to report on the facts of the case and conclude that Folk Song is demonstrably different from Traditional Song and make a few suggestions as to why that might be.

Elsewhere on Mudcat we find this actuality of Folk readily and rightly celebrated, such as in the love the young people writing folk thread, where my only concern might be with the comments regarding the artist's evident youth, comments which reflect the general Folk Demographic which I feel (and fear) informs much of reactionary carping we have seen on this thread.

That said, I find myself in generally agreement with many of the points put forward here, especially those of Jim Carroll & Don Firth, even though I feel the conflation of Folk Song and Traditional Song is no longer appropriate to the realities of either, nor yet helpful to our understanding of them in terms of ethnomusicological phenomena. Maybe this is why the International Folk Music Council changed their name to the International Council for Traditional Music, the stated aims of which are to further the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music, including folk, popular, classical and urban music, and dance of all countries.

That makes perfect sense to me; to look at music the way it is, not how we might wish it to be according to some long redundant and essentially divisive criteria.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:21 AM

Speaking purely from observation, there are people who simply don't like music. Apart from humming the odd music hall tune my mother never put music on the radio or gramophone purely for pleasure in her adult life, neither would she seek out places where music was played. My father likewise, though he had a few army songs he'd come up with on a long walk. Now you could say they were both conduits for the folk process in action, or you could say they just didn't respond to music that went much further than a nursery rhyme to fill an empty moment.

Experience suggests some people who claim to like folk music exclusively operate with a similar emotion detachment to what most of us might understand by music. The tradition in its more austere forms requires little intuitive response to musicality but is more demanding on recall, repetition and what one might call poetics. I defer to no-one in an enjoyment of austerity in folk, classical or any other genre but the 'pleasures of the text' are undoubtedly different from those of tuneful forms.
Clearly there are exceptions but if I were to make a box that fit a larger percentage of arch traditionalists than excluded them it would be one that contained structured works which did not rely on empathetic musical emotion for their thrall.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:32 AM

Howard - The difficulty I have with this approach is that in order for people to get together "in the spirit of folk", or for them to decide to designate their event as a "folk" club or "folk" festival, or even if just in their own mind what they are doing is "folk", they must have some concept in their mind of what "folk" is.

Oddly enough I don't have any difficulty with this, partly because I've seen it happen. Week 1: a Folk Club is announced; six singer-songwriters, one traddie and a hopeful who knows a couple of Dylan songs turn up, and do three songs each (the last guy struggling a bit with the third one). Week 2: eight singer-songwriters, two traddies and two hopefuls turn up and do two songs each. Week 92: 16 singer-songwriters, four traddies and eight hopefuls turn up and do one number each. What you can expect one week is mostly determined by what went on in the previous weeks, which in turn was mostly determined by what had gone on before. It's a self-sustaining, iterative mechanism, sustained by feeding on itself and on innovators who wander in. You could call it the folk club process...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:45 AM

And another thing...

I do believe people to be more important than what type of songs they sing. In this sense folk is simply the people who turn up a the end of a hard working week to share a few songs in good company. I go to Folk Clubs as much for the crack & the banter as I do for the music. I'd even go so far as to say, no crack, no good, BUT rarely have I come across such a club - maybe once, naming no names, but the occasion was marred when I complemented one guy at the bar and he took this as a cue to try and sell me his CD-R.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 07:30 AM

Pip: when this hypothetical folk club was set up, the person doing so must have had an idea of what sort of music they were expecting to attract and what they meant by "folk", or they would not have used that label. Likewise the singer-songwriters presumably also have a notion of "folk", which they consider their songs fall into. People who write songs which they consider to be in other genres are less likely to assume that a folk club is a natural venue for them. So we need, if not a definition, at least an understanding of what is folk, and what is not.

SS, what you described can just as easily be experienced with other musical forms. I have a friend who plays classical music with an amateur orchestra, and that's as much to do with socialising as it is with playing music. I don't see any difference in concept between that and a folk club. Where I do see a difference is that a folk club should present folk music, but you've ruled that out because to you anything played there is de facto folk. So there must be something else which makes it justify the label "folk".

Hardly anyone, with one or two exceptions, is arguing that "folk" should mean only "traditional". That meaning was lost long ago. However, if a song is not traditional then it must have something else which qualifies it to be thought of as "folk". The further a song gets in style and content from traditional idioms, the more difficult it is for me to recognise it as "folk".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:13 AM

Definition schmefinition. Our club in Exmouth uses the appelation Folk night.I have found it hard at open Mics inviting people to come to the event because they don't believe they are folky enough. Theyb are not using gtheir own definition, rayher an assumed identity projected by others. I now use the term acoustic night as often as 'folk' just so people don't get put off. A typical night will include a shanty crew, an acoustic band playing english/irish tunes, a couple of unaccompanied traddies, some blues, a couple of singer/songwriters, some appalachian stepping to fiddle accompaniment,a young man of 17 playing hendrix and pink floyd covers, a veteran of the fifties playin rock n roll and some groups or individuals playing mainly trditional stuff to instrumental accompaniment. Sometimes we also get a close harmony group. Not a microphone in sight, and intense listening and appreciation.
    Basically 'folk' to us means anything that you can get up and do without technology, that people can enjoy and perhaps join in with and owes some debt to ordinary music of the people ( not necessarily Folk of the ( non-folk) elite).
    Just like it was when I first went to clubs in the sixties when there was an eclectic mix of contempoorary American, blues, sea songs,Irish rebel songs, a few unacompanied traditional singers, ragtime and singer sogwriters. There was a time when 'traditional'became de riguer, which was fine for those like me who love that style, but it meant a generation seeing 'folk'as stuffy and not to do withy them. The new generation have joined back inn to reclaim mlive acoustiv music, so our folk nights have performers representing each decade from teens to octogenarians. All the folk, not just some.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:31 AM

I get very angry when I see the term 'singer-songwriter' used so disparagingly in some of these posts.

Who the bloody hell do you think created 'folk' songs in the first place?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Spleen O'Cookieless
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:35 AM

Who the bloody hell do you think created 'folk' songs in the first place?

James Taylor?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:45 AM

James Taylor?

Ewan MacColl?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:55 AM

A L Lloyd?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:57 AM

And if clutching a guitar is a pre-requisite for the sneering term then you can add Nic Jones, Martin Carthy, Dick Gaughan, plus any number of others, to the list.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 09:00 AM

Definition schmefinition.

This is more like the sort of post I was expecting when I opened this thread, with my request Likewise, if you will, your experience of what is actually being sung in The Name of Folk these day and how you feel this fits, or doesn't fit, with the 1954 definition.

Exmouth, eh? Sounds like my sort of place!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 09:14 AM

The Name of Folk

It seems to be the non-1954 definitioners that are turning Folk into a religion.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 09:17 AM

"Basically 'folk' to us means anything that you can get up and do without technology, that people can enjoy and perhaps join in with and owes some debt to ordinary music of the people"

As good a definition of folk as I've come across in this bearpit.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 11:42 AM

It seems to be the non-1954 definitioners that are turning Folk into a religion.

I think the 1954 Definitioners did that when they turned a theory into a holy writ; a shibboleth by which to judge the true words of Folk thus revealed to Mankind by dint of Holy Folk Process alone.

Seriously, Snail - what goes on Lewes on an average night? And would a boring old traddy like me be welcome?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 11:51 AM

"I think the 1954 Definitioners did that when they turned a theory into a holy writ; a shibboleth by which to judge the true words of Folk thus revealed to Mankind by dint of Holy Folk Process alone."

This is nonesense. Why do you use this pompous sort of language?

And this comes from someone who admitted that his theory of 'designation' was akin to Transubstantiation, or an 'occult practice' . . .


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 12:06 PM

"I think the 1954 Definitioners did that when they turned a theory into a holy writ; a shibboleth by which to judge the true words of Folk thus revealed to Mankind by dint of Holy Folk Process alone."

I might be wrong but I get the feeling someones taking the piss, least that's the way I read it, so , please, lighten up a wee bit, if that's posible.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM

"I think it may be that there are people here on this very thread who just don't really like folk music"

I blieve I've commented elsewhere that posts like this are variations on a theme (dare I say trad. arr.?) and a standard response from the pro 54 crowd who don't agree with anti-definition crowd. I've see similar remarks posted again and again.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 12:24 PM

I get very angry when I see the term 'singer-songwriter' used so disparagingly in some of these posts.

Who by? Which posts? Genuinely puzzled here.

Snail: It seems to be the non-1954 definitioners that are turning Folk into a religion.

There certainly seems to be a lot of resistance to the idea that there are good and bad folk performances - that you can be bored to tears by something that's undeniably folk or transported to another dimension by something that undeniably isn't.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 12:26 PM

I like the idea of folk music being a group of people getting together at the end of the work week to enjoy a few songs. From a definition standpoint, of course, it includes all genres of music, but from a process standpoint it suits my experience of making music in a social context. I'm not sure about the no electricity thing, however. While it is true that no amplification is needed to produce a great evening of music, I don't think it ruins it, either. We live in a world that includes electricity, and some folks' instruments require it.

Sinister Supporter, I'm sorry if you think that about the people who find value in the 1954 definition. Would you be willing to consider the idea that the attitude you describe is taking place within yourself, and not in the posts on this thread, nor in the minds of anyone here? Most of us have been at some pains to try to make everyone understand that there is no policing, authoritarianism, demands for anyone to do anything, or the making of holy writ. It's odd to see a intelligent and thoughtful person like yourself drawing conclusions that are at such variance to what has actually been said.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 12:41 PM

Apart from the hotline to merrie olde england that is Lewes folkclub, where are these venues that serve up a diet of traditional and only traditional tunes? Am I debating with those who claim to sing and play trad. and are talking up some trade or is there a healthy audience all over benighted albion who receive such undiluted pleasures?

I smell humbug.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 12:54 PM

Our local singaround bills itself as 'mainly but not exclusively' traditional songs. I'd guess about 70 - 80% trad most nights ... except a few weeks back when it turned into a bit of a McColl-fest.

BTW, Sminky: The James Taylor thing was a joke.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 01:04 PM

Just poking a little fun at the capitalisation of Folk and the definition that it is whatever takes place in the sacred precincts of a Designated Folk Context.

Seriously, Snail - what goes on Lewes on an average night? And would a boring old traddy like me be welcome?

The first entry in our list of objectives is -

To provide a programme which reflects the club's long-established interest in traditional music and song and contemporary folk music/song derived from the tradition.

That is, essentially, what happens. If you come into the club, you will be asked if you want to do a floor spot. While we might be able to tell by looking if you are old, that is no bar. We will only find out if you are traddy (which is welcome) or boring (which is not) when you do your spot. We tend to give performers and the audience a bit of advance warning of ther turn so any sudden rush to the bar on your subsequent visits is nothing to do with me.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 01:16 PM

Well, Sminky, I think you WILL hear a prejudice against "singer-songwriter" music around these parts. We've listened to many, and we've found them boring. I think the implication of the term "singer-songwriter," is a person who sings almost exclusively the songs he/she has written. And most often, those songs don't "work" when anybody else sings them.

There are exceptions, of course. In the U.S., Bill Staines is one songwriter whose songs are eminently singable. If you go to a Staines concert, you will hear the whole audience singing along. That's because there's a communal aspect to his songs, and you won't find that characteristic in the songs of many who call themselves singer-songwriters. Also, his songs usually tell a story that begs to be told over and over again.

Mudcat, after all, is a traditional music forum, interested primarily in music that has withstood the test of time - and music in that style. Many of us primarily sing songs written by known songwriters, so they're not purely "traditional" - but they share that communal element and an element of storytelling that you will find in traditional music.

The performers I like are ones who sing songs from a variety of sources. They may write some of the songs they perform, but they perform only the best of their songs in public.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 01:32 PM

Rifleman, regarding my observation that there are people on this thread—and others involved in folk music groups—who don't really like folk music, there are precedents in reality for that statement. I am acquainted with a woman who calls herself a "folk singer" and who tells me she writes "folk songs." I've heard her sing some of her songs and even though she's somewhere in her thirties, she is still writing songs about teenaged angst, particularly her own, which she seems unwilling to outgrow. Typical navel-gazing stuff. Her tunes are not very interesting because she, herself, has a limited singing range. They tend to be a cluster of unrelated notes, and for the life of me, I can't recall any of the tunes she has written. And if she didn't repeat some of the lines over and over again, her songs wouldn't last much more than a minute, but they generally go on for at least three.

"What sort of songs do you sing?" she asked me. I reeled of the names of a few songs in my repertoire. Traditional British and American. She wrinkled her nose as if there were a bad smell in the room and said, "Oh! That kind of stuff!" generally dismissing the whole field of traditional music and me with it.

And I have mentioned before the fellow whose repertoire consists of the songs of Jacques Brel. Traditional songs don't interest him in the least, and he suffers through others singing them so he can get a chance to sing Marieke or Ne Me Quitte Pas with his absolutely atrocious French accent. Wot the bloody 'ell is 'e doin' there in the first place? He's there because there is a gathering of people who come together to sing traditional—yes, folk songs. He doesn't give diddly-squat for folk music. He just wants an audience for what he wants to sing.

And these are not isolated incidents, nor are these people all that rare.

And another thing:   it isn't a matter of liking only traditional songs, or liking them only because they are traditional, or liking all traditional songs. I can't speak for others, but my personal musical tastes are pretty broad, including early music, Baroque, classical, some chamber music, some opera, some country and western, some popular music, but I don't much care for a lot of rock and rap. I sing mostly songs from the British and American folk traditions, but I also sing a few songs that are not, but in terms of style, fit nicely into a program of traditional songs. And of the traditional songs I sing, since there are usually several versions available, I select the version that I prefer, since, due to their varying poetic, musical, and generally aesthetic qualities, I don't consider all versions to be equally good. And there are some traditional songs that don't appeal to me at all, so I don't sing them.

Where I get a bit fed up with discussions of this kind is that those who disagree with a particular viewpoint soon resort to attempting to belittle those who hold the viewpoint by accusing them of being incapable of independent thought and adhering to their viewpoint because they are intimidated by some higher authority and haven't the guts to question it or even examine it, thereby dismissing both them and their viewpoint.

This (Pedant alert! Pedant alert!) is an example of the argumentum ad hominem fallacy:   trying to refute an argument, not by addressing the argument directly, but by attacking the person making the argument.

And there's a lot of that going on in this thread.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 01:35 PM

By the way, that was 700.

Whoopie. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 01:43 PM

It's becoming clear the only people who expect to hear a performance of exclusively traditional material are the six individuals who hang around Mudcat's 1954 threads.
If a death metal band performed Lord Bateman from a few hundred watts of Marshall stack those six might applaud the folk process first time around but would they return for Lord Rendal and Blackbirds and Thrushes and offer the band a residency - or head for somewhere serving up fiddles and whistles?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:15 PM

It's becoming clear the only people who expect to hear a performance of exclusively traditional material are the six individuals who hang around Mudcat's 1954 threads.

Seconds out - glueman meets strawman, round 94.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:22 PM

Presentation has quite a bit to do with it. If a rock band or the Mormon Tabernacle Choir or Kathleen Ferrier sing a folk song, the presentation removes it from the "folk context" that SS loves so much, but it does not alter the fact that it's a folk song.

Would I make an effort to hear a program of folk songs done by a hard-rock band? Probably not, especially when there are other options available.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:27 PM

Further comment:   to me, the words of a song, especially a folk/traditional song, are important, and I find that with most rock bands, the words get lost in the "wall of sound" that comes out out the sound system. Most of the time, I don't know what the hell they're singing about.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:56 PM

I'm trying to winkle out a self-evident truth - folk music is both material and presentation when it comes to audience expectation. My death metal band - we'll call them Skullkrusher - might have impeccable sources but unless they use acoustic instruments they'd be unlikely to be invited back, even I suspect, to Lewes.

Now if we follow the bouncing ball of logic to the stinking gutter of plain fact 1954 has only limited consequences for what goes on in folk's name. OTOH singer-songwriters emulate the manners and mantle of the tradition (at least the good ones do) while the folk process continues with little recourse to the sustain pedal or the tremelo arm. We are, brace yourself, still looking at two brands of the entertainment industry someone noticed a hundred or so posts back.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:20 PM

so he can get a chance to sing Marieke or Ne Me Quitte Pas with his absolutely atrocious French accent.

Pedant alert: Jacques Brel was Belgian. In the Sinister Supporter Pantheon of Godlike Genii he ranks very highly indeed. For those who don't know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZFr2Fh66zs

Presentation has quite a bit to do with it. If a rock band or the Mormon Tabernacle Choir or Kathleen Ferrier sing a folk song, the presentation removes it from the "folk context" that SS loves so much, but it does not alter the fact that it's a folk song.

Change folk song to traditional song and we're in complete accord on that one, Don. My main point is that we Traddy's can't have it both ways; one word will suffice, especially when the other has become flabby with over use. I think the example of the ICTM is one we should heed.

Where I get a bit fed up with discussions of this kind is that those who disagree with a particular viewpoint soon resort to attempting to belittle those who hold the viewpoint by accusing them of being incapable of independent thought and adhering to their viewpoint because they are intimidated by some higher authority and haven't the guts to question it or even examine it, thereby dismissing both them and their viewpoint.

Loathed as I am to point this out, Don, and with total respect, this is a tactic I'd most associate with your good self, and we've seen a bit of it on this thread. Examples include your likening me to Wile E. Coyote in Canyon Crisis, questioning my use of the word corporeal, and your helpful diagram concerning carts and horses. Otherwise, I'm cool with much of what you say and regard you as a Diamond Geezer. Respect.

*

This is nonesense. Why do you use this pompous sort of language?

Michael - how does Fuck Off sound?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:34 PM

"glueman meets strawman"

Do we Pip? Or is the truth exclusively traditional venues like exclusively traditional audiences are rarer than 1933 pennies for Good Reasons? 1954 may be cranked out like the Wizard of Oz's warnings but behind the scenes do more than a few mudcatter's actually care so long as they get what they expect to hear?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:43 PM

folk music is both material and presentation when it comes to audience expectation

If you define it in terms of audience expectation, that's correct. If you define it in terms of provenance, it's not.

1954 may be cranked out like the Wizard of Oz's warnings

Where do you get this stuff?

but behind the scenes do more than a few mudcatter's actually care so long as they get what they expect to hear?

If nobody cared I don't think this thread would have reached 700, or 100 for that matter.

Besides, the reason I care (as I said earlier on) is that for a long time I wasn't getting what I could have expected - and would have greatly preferred - if only I'd known it was there. Because the label 'folk' had been applied to something else - something which nobody seems able to define, other than as the kind of thing that gets labelled as folk.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:45 PM

I guess you don't want to answer my question.

But I'll take a stab at it.

Maybe you need to wrap your thesis in fancy language because 'folk is what happens in folk clubs' is not a particularly compelling argument.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:53 PM

So we have stuff that can be clearly defined but has no dedicated outlets - so presumably a tiny audience - and a heap of stuff that defies definition but everyone knows what to expect and turns up for in droves.
I'll do my periodic reminder that I like and collect traditional music recordings. In fact I'm thinking of filming (on film) some remaining performers - which has no bearing on the logic I lay out before yuz.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:10 PM

SS, nit-pick alert. If you're saying what I think you're saying, first, I know Brel is Belgian. The atrocious French accent I spoke of is not Brel's, it belongs to the guy who insists on singing Brel's songs to folk-oriented groups.

If I abandon the word "folk," it's because the way it has been used within recent years, it's come to mean anything that anyone wants it to mean. And as to "traditional," there are those who are trying to misappropriate that word also and apply it to things written recently by singer-songwriters, e. g., "Writing folk songs is 'traditional,'" obviously trying to turn that word flabby also.

As to occasionally using the tactics which I deplore, I must plead guilty. My apologies for that. But I find that it's a bit contagious and I will try to inoculate myself against it. I wish others would also.

But I still question you use of the word "corporeal."

By the way, I do like your stuff on YouTube, whether it is ultimately judged "folk music" or not. A lot of it most definitely is.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:48 PM

Has anybody said they only want to hear Folk/traditional music at a folk club? Searched the thread and I'm buggered if I can find such a statement This is still a question of definition, not preferences.
This argument is full of straw men and unanswered questions.
Still trying to work out where SS gets his 'we traddies' reference
Traddie my arseum!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 05:14 PM

But I still question you use of the word "corporeal."

I picked up the word in a musical sense from Harry Partch (who also ranks very highly indeed in the Sinister Supporter Pantheon of Godlike Genii) - in particular from his book Genesis of a Music. Much of Partch's concerns were with speech intonation with respect of song, and to this end (& others, such as perfect non-tempered thirds) he divided the octave into 43 microtonal divisions according to Pythagorean principles. Consequently he had to build a lot of amazing instruments to perform it on giving rise to my favourite Partch quote: "I am not an instrument builder, rather a philosophical music-man seduced into carpentry." One of Americas finest sons!

Lots of Partch on YouTube, including the BBC4 documentary up in 6 parts. Part One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cKnTj2cyNQ


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 07:08 PM

Sinister, I'm not familiar with the work of Harry Partch, but I will endeavor to educate myself. Thanks for the link.

I may have to postpone my education temporarily, as income tax comes due fairly soon, and not only is that tax man breathing down my neck, but my son and his lovely lady will be arriving in a bit from California to visit for a few days and I won't have time to do it when they get here, so I have to get the bleedin' tax return done now (gotta keep those multi-million dollar bonuses flowing to those fired CEOs, and all that!).

"I'll be back!"
             —Arnold Schwarzenegger as "The Terminator."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 07:27 PM

So we have stuff that can be clearly defined but has no dedicated outlets - so presumably a tiny audience - and a heap of stuff that defies definition but everyone knows what to expect and turns up for in droves.

Well, we have stuff that can be clearly defined. Most of the rest you've made up.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 09:42 PM

By the time y'all settle on a definition it'll be as applicable to the then-today as is the 1954 definition TO today.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 02:25 AM

"It's becoming clear the only people who expect to hear a performance of exclusively traditional material are the six individuals who hang around Mudcat's 1954 threads."
I've already asked - but can anybody supply us with an example of this or is it the last gasp of of dying argument by somebody who has run out odf ideas?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 02:37 AM

Sorry,
Before the serial 'correctors' leap in: I intended to type 'run out OF ideas.
By the way 'Rifle'.
"sound bytes - the correct spelling"
Although it is a new-ish word, the spelling that seems to heve been settled on appears to be 'soundbite' - even in the semi-literate 'Wiki'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 04:30 AM

"It's becoming clear the only people who expect to hear a performance of exclusively traditional material are the six individuals who hang around Mudcat's 1954 threads."

In case I'm one of those this comment is aimed at, it's certainly not true in my case. Whilst my preference is for traditional material, I include in my repertoire many songs and tunes by modern writers. There are plenty of traditional songs which leave me cold, and some non-traditional songs which inspire me.

I certainly don't expect to hear only traditional music at a folk event (although I would be disappointed to hear none). I don't mind hearing music which is not traditional being performed, and I perform some myself, and all I ask is that if this is to be described as "folk" it should show some affinity with traditional forms (although not necessarily imitating them). I don't even mind music which clearly comes from another genre, provided it is performed in a style which is appropriate to a folk venue. I just disagree that this last category should be called "folk".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 04:32 AM

Still trying to work out where SS gets his 'we traddies' reference
Traddie my arseum!


For 35 years I've delighted in Traditional Song as a both a singer and listener - and if I listen to Traditional Song, then it will be invariably sung by a Traditional Singer, unless I'm in a singaround when it will be sung by a Singer of Traditional Songs, such as myself. Thus do I call myself a Traddy. What's the problem? It's what I do. Sure it's not all I do, but such are the joys of cultural pluralism.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 05:16 AM

It's like this - Radio, TV, Record companies, Shops, Clubs, Festivals, practically anything one can think of that decides common definitions - have come down on the side of folk being This Thing. It's loose edged what-not, a bit like jelly but even so there are few real surprises. It rarely tastes of cake let alone Lobster Thermidore.
Except on Mudcat.
On Mudcat it's an intensely problematised Thing that resembles a fine wooden box, a box with French polishing and dovetail joints. It's suggested here that traditional music is barely available having been crushed beneath a commercial hegemony of plastic boxes but is something folk woild clamour for if only it was given a little exposure.

I don't believe that to be the case. I believe that even among folk fans traditional works, presented in what the performer imagines to be an authentic way are 'difficult'. That doesn't make them wrong or bad (I loves 'em), it makes them inaccessible and that inaccessibility means they make up a modest proportion of what audiences who keep these events going will pay to watch - except of course in Lewis.
Observation leads me to further believe the debate comes down to True Believers, those who think there's a musical pyramid with the tradition on top like the eye on a dollar bill and those who keep the tradition close to their hearts without feeling it's either on top or trapped in a cellar waiting to be let out before returning again in glory (to continue the splendid religious analogy earlier).

I use the term True Believer because there's an ongoing suggestion other posters don't actually like traditional music but have had their vital faculties weakened by cheap plastic boxed from Lidl and Aldi, which is snobbery in a different hat.

There's a splendid definition of folk music above by Tug the Cox and I commend it to all those with a hole in their arse.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 05:57 AM

Well, Sminky, I think you WILL hear a prejudice against "singer-songwriter" music around these parts.

Thanks for the confirmation, Joe.

Here in the UK we've had singer-songwriters for quite some time (several hundred years in fact). Some of the current ones are listed above. Centuries ago they were known variously as minstrels, troubadours, waits, though they tended to compose to order. However, in between, we've had countless unknown individuals who have sung "the songs he/she has written". They sang them to their friends and fellow workers, at work and maybe later in the village pub. And people joined in because these songs had a "communal aspect".

Some of the songs were obviously not very good and they vanished, never to be heard again.

But some of were obviously deemed so good that they spread outside the village boundaries. Some indeed spread throughout the whole country and beyond (some even spread as far as the US). But because they were passed on by word of mouth and people's memories aren't always reliable, some of the words got changed along the way.

And today, we call this type of "music that has withstood the test of time" traditional . And clubs sprang up where such songs can still be sung and heard. And, with the advance of technology, we have forums like Mudcat where such songs can be discussed.

And it's all down to singer-songwriters. And they are still around.

I do hope you change your mind about them, Joe, because we owe them everything.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 06:46 AM

It's like this - Radio, TV, Record companies, Shops, Clubs, Festivals, practically anything one can think of that decides common definitions - have come down on the side of folk being This Thing.

Have they? I was under the impression that what you get when you go to one folk club is quite different from what you get when you go to another, and that they're both different from what you get when you go to a festival, and that all of the above are different from what you get if you go to a shop and look in the CD rack labelled Folk. And the contents of that CD rack have definitely changed over time - as in, over the last five years.

Jacques Brel, Amsterdam. Donovan, Isle of Islay. Johnnie Mathis, When a Child is Born (complete with spoken-word section). Pleasant and Delightful, sung in two-part harmony, sight-read from sheet music. Can you tell me one thing all those performances have got in common?

Something called 'folk' - something with no identifying characteristics, as far as we can see - is a bit in vogue at the moment, and it's getting a lot of younger people through the doors of FCs. That's good. But tides of fashion (and marketing) go out as well as in; the editor of the NME is going to wake up one morning and decide that singer-songwriters who sound a bit like Vashti Bunyan are just so last year. When 'folk' goes out of fashion, some FCs are going to be hit hard. I think we should be trying to build something solid, by getting a few more people exposed to traditional music.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 07:20 AM

A disagreement with Pip's post above: the 'nu-folk scene' (or whatever you want to call it) has been chugging along quite nicely in its own parallel (to the 'official'* folk scene) universe for at least five years. Ages ranges of those in the audiences and on the stage range from teens to forties, with most in the mid twenties to mid thirties range. Anecdotally - according to some of the older players - it has led to a sizeable increase in people attending local gigs by relative unknowns playing acoustic music. If its just a 'fashion' it's showing remarkable staying power: I suspect, like the 'official' folk scene, though, it will ebb and flow. It has some crossover with the official folk scene and some crossover with the indie/alternative scene, but essentially is very much its own thing. It's mainly singer songwriter stuff and small groups but with less of the sensitive navel gazing stuff and more influences from psychedelia, acid folk, avant rock, american folk, blues and alt-country. You even occasionally hear the odd traditional song. Rather than seeing it as something to sneeringly dismiss as 'fashion' (come on, Pip, you're better than that!), I believe it's something to celebrate - even if the music itself and the trad qotient isn't to your taste. Personally - lack of trad notwithstanding - I find much of what I hear from the nu-folk/Green Man/whatever scene far more to my tastes than the non-trad folk music I hear on the official folk scene.

However, I suspect it will continue to exist in isolation from the official scene except a few acts who break into official folk festivals via reviews in fRoots etc and a few clubs that crossover between the two scenes (the Magpie's Nest et al)... I don't even think most of the acts and audience are even particularly aware of the official folk scene or that arsed about it. Which, of couurse, is entirely as it should be. I might start a thread linking to some of these people: it would act as a refreshing palate cleanser.

* By official, of course, I mean the sort of "designated folk contexts" understood to be such on Mudcat: clubs, festivals, singarounds etc.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 07:29 AM

And it's all down to singer-songwriters. And they are still around.

INCOHERENT RAMBLE ALERT!

A fascinating thesis, Sminky, but one would do well to take a closer look at the actual nature of your average minstrel, troubadour, or wait. The Troubadours, for example, were aristocratic poets of the medieval Languedoc, and the role of the Waits and Minstrels is more akin to that we find today being fulfilled by drum n' organ duos as typified by Les Alanos from Phoenix Nights - musical troupers in other words, grafting away at the daily grind and given the punters exactly what they want for fear of their livelihood. I don't think one can equate your average singer-songwriter with such people, let alone think they will be in any way responsible for the traditional songs of the future.

I think the problem is one of craft and continuity; once upon a time, when these Traditional Songs were written, the conditions were such that craftsmen of every persuasion were an integral aspect of society - rural, coastal or otherwise. There existed a continuity of master craftsmanship (as celebrated by Kipling in A Truthful Song) reaching back thousands of years. Sadly, for whatever reason, with but few exceptions, that continuity has been broken. The rule, the aesthetic, the feel, the touch are long gone; we've lost the beauty once embodied in even the simplest piece of home-crafted treen, and the once glorious interiors of our public houses have been gutted and made over by bodgers whose abilities would have made a Victorian apprentice boy blush with shame.

In Durham, for example, there is a pub called The Shakespeare whose intimate middle snug has been cherished by drinkers for over 200 years. Last time I was, it was no more; the ancient wainscoting stripped away to make a modern style booth on account of the present incumbent being of the opinion that his punters didn't know the snug was there. 200 years of history gone - and we won't be getting it back because joiners and interior decorators these days wouldn't know where to start.   

I think of our latter day singer-songwriters are akin to the DIY bodgers that typify the present age and their bland housing estate style of living. At best, their songs are a bogus pastiche of the picturesque that lingers on, somewhere, but only just; I see the modern barn conversions and for once in my life I am glad I live in a town. Of course there are exceptions - I've named a few on this thread already - those whose songs do manifest considerable craftsmanship and which have already been absorbed into a sort of tradition, which is to say, people are singing them and making them their own. But that is not to think of them in the same way as we think of Traditional Songs, just be glad of the anomalous talents we see around us.

As a rule, however, I think this is why I am a Traddy; it is why I love old songs, old things in general, to touch a world that is long gone. However, whilst I might relish a song sung by my Irish great-grandfather who worked as a tailor on The Castle Garth Stairs in Newcastle back in the 1870s, I wouldn't have liked to have visited his dentist. So in this respect, I am a fervent modernist; I flit between worlds on a whim, glad that I might touch the past with the one hand, but seize the future the other. I do not resent all change, and even though I might be at odds with the crap-begets-crap school of thinking, there is a school of DIY that I absolutely love, that of an outsider folk architecture that creates its own functional picturesque without worrying too much about the past or the future. I see this in allotments and boatyards everywhere I go, so maybe in this respect I might even applaud the most average singer-songwriter (or singer of traditional songs) and might even, at a stretch, uphold the virtues of GEFF.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 07:31 AM

By official, of course, I mean the sort of "designated folk contexts" understood to be such on Mudcat

As far as I know, Mr Cringe, there is only one person in the known universe who understands what a "designated folk context" is.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 08:12 AM

Dunno 'why designated folk contexts' raise such ire. If responses on Mudcat are anything to go by intellectualism and anti-intellectualism are wielded freely in folkspeak and rebuffed or embraced depending on whose side the word-monger is. One would imagine the promoters of '54 might be keen on taxonomic precision but responses suggest linguistic exactitude is frowned upon by and large, in favour of homespun saws and tags.

1954 definitions require mass adherence to be definitive and I see no such concensus.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 08:13 AM

Snail, I'm desperate for the phrase to enter the folk lexicon... come on, you know you want it too!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 08:22 AM

"If responses on Mudcat are anything to go by intellectualism and anti-intellectualism are wielded freely in folkspeak and rebuffed or embraced depending on whose side the word-monger is."

Amen to that. I find the familiar pedantry of the 'you failed to dot your i's and cross your t's!' kind loathsome here. But I think I dislike 'plain English' aggression moreso. As it smacks to me, of inverted snobbery - where here in this preserver of antiquation of all places, one would presume it would ideally not exist!
Long live eloquence. Must be one of the reasons I like to read Victorian childrens literature...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 08:44 AM

I'm sure there's something I disagree with in SS's last, but so far I'm struggling to find it. I'll let you know.

Rather than seeing it as something to sneeringly dismiss as 'fashion' (come on, Pip, you're better than that!), I believe it's something to celebrate - even if the music itself and the trad qotient isn't to your taste. Personally - lack of trad notwithstanding - I find much of what I hear from the nu-folk/Green Man/whatever scene far more to my tastes than the non-trad folk music I hear on the official folk scene.

People keep reading a sneer into what I think are straightforward statements of opinion. It must be the text equivalent of David Baddiel's Man Afflicted With A Sarcastic Tone Of Voice ("Oh, *go on*, I'm finding it *really interesting*... No, what?").

Yes, Green Man and all that stuff (no, what?) is a lot more than just a fashion - and yes, they're a lot more to my taste than a fair amount of Designated Folk. (If I had to choose between Jez Lowe and Espers I'd go for the creepy Yanks every time.) But I don't think it'll last forever. (In terms of coolness or hiposity it's probably peaked already; there's a definite nu-prog thing rolling in at the moment.) The lure of possibly hearing the next Meg Baird or Sufjan Stevens isn't going to get people into folk clubs for much longer, any more than people were going to folk clubs to hear the next Sandy Denny in the 1980s.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 09:06 AM

Something recently occured to me which may inform my position on this subject. Back in the days when I was paid to enlighten the nation's youth rarely a year passed without the new cohort containing a few extolling the importance of jungle, house, shoe-gazing, anti-folk, lo-fi, grunge or whatever, each with matching trousers and haircut.
The uniting factor was that 'nobody understood' the importance of their preferred music nor its powers of transformation but themselves.

Traditionalists remind me of the same impulse. I often got what was good about the other genres too, without feeling the need to wear the T-shirt. That's me all over that is.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 09:26 AM

I'm sure there's something I disagree with in SS's last, but so far I'm struggling to find it. I'll let you know.

I might add to my last sentence thus:

...so maybe in this respect I might even applaud the most average singer-songwriter (or singer of traditional songs) and might even, at a stretch, uphold the virtues of GEFF - and run a mile when confronted with the sort of slick professional virtuosity which in any context usually has me running out the door. This is why, as a rule, I avoid sessions, though once again every rule must have its exception; my favourite Folk Club right now is half session, half singaround and in both respects it's the bollocks. I think this why the piping of Seamus Ennis thrills like an intravenous injection of stupidly hard drugs, but that of (say) Davy Spillane barely registers as a saline drip.

Here's an earlier anecdote for those who might have missed it.

In the good old days in England Sam Smith's pubs carried music licenses and sold cheap (though barely drinkable) bitter such as Old Brewery, which at one Durham public house could be had for a quid a pint, thus making it very popular with musicians. Thursdays was the Folk Club; Tuesdays the Trad Jazz, and Mondays was the Irish Session, the players of which took themselves Very Seriously Indeed, and rightly so in terms of the impeccable standard of their playing which existed in direct correlation to the utter tedium it inspired in the casual listener, such as myself.

Said public house was also the scene of many an hearty outrage; one night, for example, I was in there when a fight broke out in the bar between several inebriated men of the same family after a funeral. It was a Tuesday, and the Dixieland Jazzers played on as the chairs flew, and the men brawled, and the locals stood there as if nothing was happening. A lovely summer night it was as I recall, the sun shining, the doors open, and everything at peace with the world; a peace barely disturbed by the proceedings in the bar.

Anyhoo. One Monday night in the autumn of 1999 after an arduous coach journey from London I popped in for a pint (those who say to travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive have never travelled by National Express). The Session Musicians were through in the club room, playing their particular brand of music with fierce concentration and earnestness - a music which filtered through to the bar as a mildly irritating ambience: difficult to ignore, but not really loud enough to engage your attention, especially when one was in there on one's own, enjoying a solitary pint of OB with a half-ounce of Golden Virginia (Job papers & Swan Vesta matches) and a copy of Heart of Darkness (if only to get a literary measure of Apocalypse Now). Into the bar comes an old lady in her slippers, hair-net and dressing gown. In the absence of the barmaid, she helps herself to a large glass of Grouse from the appropriate optic. Taking a sip, she savours the poison, pondering all the while the nature of the entertainment taking place through in the club room, where our Session friends are playing with such indefatigable gusto they might well get through the whole of O'Neill's before closing time. Then a look of realisation dawns on her wrinkled face as it all becomes clear; something at least approaching a smile plays about her lips as she turns to me (there is, alas, no one else in the bar) and utters the immortal words:
"Eh, that's that Riverdance music isn't it?"
"It most certainly is," I reply, happy for the first time since parting from my girlfriend (now wife) at Worth Abbey some ten hours earlier.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 12:23 PM

Sinister Supporter, I'm in agreement with everything you said in your last two posts. The bit about the building resonated because my dad is an old school builder. He's old now and retired, but he was lucky enough to find a few people now and then who could afford to pay for the time it took to do the really nice work. Of course, whenever he couldn't find that work he took whatever there was, which usually meant intense physical labor outdoors in a climate that ranged from months of freezing cold and snow to months of skin-blistering heat and humidity. There's a huge and beautiful gate on an estate that he built decades ago that he still goes to check on from time to time, just make sure it's still there and not sagging.

I also agree with what you said about which songs make it into the tradition and why. Oh, and the tediously earnest session players. One of the things I love about them is that traditional music, as much as anything, is local music. So now we have people all over the world studiously learning everything there is to know about a tradition from somewhere else. Nothing wrong with that, and I'm glad they're doing it, but it brings two different ways of looking at traditional music front and center.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 12:32 PM

The term is sometimes written incorrectly (or ironically) as "sound byte". [citation needed]

this apparently from Wikipedia......

"1954 definitions require mass adherence to be definitive and I see no such concensus."

and hopefully we never will


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 12:43 PM

"a half-ounce of Golden Virginia"

Now there's a phrase that shall be forever evocative.
Not exactly 'Madeleines' - but my own equivalent nevertheless...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 02:40 PM

There is no 'mass concensus' for any definition of folk music - we've never managed to engage the masses.
The only times we even approached doing so was when Sharp got the songs accepted in the schools, where they were hammered to death by Miss Pringle on the school upright - and during the folk boom when is was represented by The Clancys and The Dubliners and The Spinners.... none of which were perfect but were all far nearer the real thing than the 'make-it-up-as-you-go-along' approach being proposed here.
I'm wodering where does one go for accredition to be a 'designated folk context'; fill in an application form maybe, sit an exam, give the EFDSS a bung....... no, seriously!!!!
Still no answer to my 'exclusively folk venues' question - I'll take that as a 'nowhere' then.
As for the Dog and Duck v Pindar of Wakefield definition.....
You're 'avin' a larf!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 04:36 PM

I'm listening to Fairport Convention's rendition of Richard Thompson's Poor Will and the Jolly Hangman whilst reading Jim Carroll's latest missive, eonough said.....


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 04:54 PM

I've been listening to Pentangle's jazz-rock traditonal.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 04:56 PM

Hush my mouth. That should read jazz-folk.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 05:24 PM

"1954 definitions require mass adherence to be definitive and I see no such concensus."

Do they? Since when?

This reminds me of a colleague at work who seriously believed that complex technical problems could be solved by voting on a series of alternative solutions. The most popular solution just HAD to be the right answer - even though most of the voters had little detailed knowledge of the relevant area. Needless to say this stupid 'method' was shown repeatedly not to work, but this made little difference to this person's 'faith' in it!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 05:27 PM

Ooh, listening to things that Jim Carroll wouldn't consider folk - daring! Me, I'm listening to Scott Walker. What do I win?

(Serious point: if you use the 1954 definition of 'folk' you can listen to what you like, play what you like and play in whatever style you like. And if you don't, you can also listen to what you like, play what you like and play in whatever style you like.)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 05:40 PM

I sense a lot of anger.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 05:44 PM

This morning on the ride to work I listened to Malicorne, Cream, Genesis, Jethro Tull, The Beatles, Telynor, Ranarim, and a nyckelharpa recording (don't remember the player's name). Oddly, I like all this stuff, play all this stuff, and still like the 1954 definition. Let's see, Malicorne had both trad music and not trad, Cream had some old blues (trad enough for me) and some new blues (borderline), Genesis and Tull are straight-ahead prog rock, with great songwriting. The Beatles are unabashedly pop, with many of the songs so widely played in so many styles that they may as well be folk, at least according to most. Telynor and Ranarim all trad, with both trad-sounding and modern-sounding arrangements. The nyckelharpa tunes are all hard-core Swedish trad, except that the composer is known for a lot of that material.

Aren't definitions fun?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 06:13 PM

I've just been listening to Mozart (47-45-42) and playing Freecell.
Wonder where that leaves the definition.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 06:16 PM

Fraid It wasn't in a designated folk context, so it doesn't count.jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 04:27 AM

I'm listening to Scott Walker.

Who also ranks highly in the Sinister Supporter Pantheon of Godlike Genii - in fact, wasn't it Julian Cope's 1981 Scott Walker compilation that gave us the phrase Godlike Genius?

So what Scott you been listening to, Pip? I tend to be happiest with the revised version of Boy Child - the one that begins with Montague Terrace & includes Angels of Ashes. I don't ordinarily go for Best Ofs but it is my belief that Boy Child represents something of a hidden masterwork, bringing together the jewels from his first five (seriously flawed IMO) albums into something of a cohesive whole - although at 70 minutes I think I might have added Two Ragged Soldiers and Two Weeks Since You've Gone. Check out the video we made for We Came Through:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_ktTtAZfV4

This was serendipitous, as we were listening to Boy Child whilst filming our ascent to the top of the car park & We Came Through lasted exactly the duration of the journey. Note the Mondegreen in the lyrics though - these come from the Boy Child CD cover which gives when error dies whereas it is Guevara dies, which pre-echoes Bolivia 95 on Tilt in which in a typical Scott Walker scenario we find a soldier praying over Che's corpse. Here's the original production footage & sound as filmed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqf3TRP7XYs

I bought The Drift on the day of its release when we were on holiday in Norfolk a few years back; a work of intense beauty, although I must admit it doesn't get played all that much. I especially love the Donald Duck Fuck You and the scenario of the ghost of Elvis Presley discussing 9/11 with the spectre of his dead twin Aaron is almost too much to bear. I played Tilt the other day whilst putting the finishing touches to my Green Man mask (I regard Farmer in the City and Bolivia 95 as amongst the most perfect songs ever written) followed by Climate of Hunter - which is an unfinished masterpiece but still engages the heart.

I could talk about Scott Walker all day, and what a fine day it would be...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 04:38 AM

none of which were perfect but were all far nearer the real thing than the 'make-it-up-as-you-go-along' approach being proposed here.

Jim - no one's proposing anything, least of me, just observing & accommodating the facts of Folk as they stand - and accepting that Folk is as Folk does, and being happy we might still call our beloved songs Traditional.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 04:54 AM

But, SS, you started this thread by asking to define folk music. If you're saying that one might hear all kinds of music in a "folk context", I can't disagree - those are the facts, although it tells us more about the events than the music. What I do disagree with is your contention that all kinds of music can therefore be considered "folk".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 05:14 AM

Howard: you started this thread by asking to define folk music.

Wrong! Go back to my OP & you'll see that my original title was simply 1954 and All That. It was added too by Joe as he felt it wasn't clear enough as to what the thread was about. In the OP I outline my intentions quite clearly:

I'm opening this up specifically to discuss what relevance, if any, the 1954 definition has to do with what actually happens in the name of Folk in 2009.

*

Howard: What I do disagree with is your contention that all kinds of music can therefore be considered "folk".

Even the 1954 Definition doesn't outline Folk in terms of genre; indeed, context has always been the defining factor of which music was called Folk and which wasn't, thus do we have the Folk Music of every culture on Planet Earth, in all its ever increasing richness & diversity reflecting as many influences and cross-cultural pollinations you might conceive of but it all might be described as Folk Music. All I'm doing is taking a look at what goes on over here in Designated Folk Contexts (Cubs, Festivals, yada yada yada) and concluding that Folk remains a matter of context rather than genre.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 06:34 AM

Correction:

and the scenario of the ghost of Elvis Presley discussing 9/11 with the spectre of his dead twin Aaron is almost too much to bear.

Elvis's dead twin bother (died at birth) was Jesse, and not Aaron, which was (as any fule kno) Elvis's middle name. Here's the song anyway:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYyOkQUyJZM


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 07:15 AM

As you say - Jesse Garon Presley - and what an amazing song...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 07:49 AM

what an amazing song

Scott Walker pointed out that the guitar part is a perversion of Blue Suede Shoes...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 08:16 AM

I was listening to Boy Child (the song), as it happens, from my own compilation of bits from the first four albums - just his own compositions, and not all of those (I remember thinking Montague Terrace was fantastic, years ago, but now it's the stillness & the eerie strings of Such A Small Love that stick with me).

I've just recently bought the first four albums & worked my way through them; haven't got TTBCI yet. The first two have major cheese problems, although even on them there are tracks that sound like bulletins from another universe. The third is only really let down by the Brel songs (which is saying something), and the fourth is just superb - rises to Climate of Hunter levels in places. I prefer CofH to Tilt, I have to admit, and haven't yet got round to hearing the Drift - it sounds difficult *and* depressing. I'll get to it eventually, one fine day when my serotonin level's high.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 08:18 AM

PS The guitar part is Jailhouse Rock -
ba-DUMMM... pow! pow!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 09:44 AM

Can we either define this 'designated folk context' or recognise it as the nonsense I believe it to be.
Who designates the context and does it mean that anybody can set up a folk club and claim that anything that happens there is 'folk song' or has there to be some general consensus (ie definition) of what folk is before the context becomes 'designated'?
Is there a precedent for a venue being the defining factor of what goes on.
Does everything that happens on the stage of the Royal Opera House automatically become opera because of the venue?
My first regular music venue was The Cavern in Liverpool when it was a jazz club. The group that was eventually to become The Beatles regularly featured in the interval spot - were they a jazz group?
I ask again how do you deal with the inevitable fragmentation of the music if the only defining factor is that it is performed at one of these 'designated venues'?
"context has always been the defining factor of which music was called Folk"
On the contrary, context has never been the, or even a defining factor of folk.
Sam Larner, along with his neighbours, sang reguarly in the back room of The Fisherman's Return in Winterton, yet he told Charles Parker and MacColl that "the serious singing was done at home or during quiet periods at sea.
There were recognised singing and music venues here in the west of Ireland, usually, but not always in pubs. The context here would be a gathering of friends, neighbours, passing strangers, locals returning from abroad, visiting Travellers...... a whole bunch of different people. These events might, but usually weren't planned in advance, or regular gatherings, but they could happen at a whim. The crossroads dances were also regular occasions for singing. All these would be in the context of a gathering of neighbours and friends, but singing would also take place at cattle markets and horse fairs among complete strangers. At the other end of the scale, most singing was done in farmhouse kitchens among intimte friends and family.
Walter Pardon's only experience of singing, prior to his being taken up by the revival, was at home during Christmas parties and Harvest suppers; but his uncle, the source of most of his songs, sang at social gatherings following meetings of the newly revived Agricultural Workers Union.
I wonder how many of these would qualify as 'designated folk contexts'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 09:52 AM

Well, even I can tell the difference between 'the venue' (which is immaterial) and 'the context'.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 10:05 AM

"and doest promyse that when two or three be gathered together in thy name thou wilt graunt their requestes"

"Wild Rover"

"Black Velvet Band"

"Fields of Athenry"

"Streets of London"


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 10:58 AM

Can we either define this 'designated folk context' or recognise it as the nonsense I believe it to be.

A Designated Folk Context = Folk Club, Folk Festival, Folk Radio Show, Folk Record Label, Folk Forum, Folk Magazine, Folk Media etc.

Who designates the context

The organisers of the above and those who subscribe and buy into it on whatever level.

and does it mean that anybody can set up a folk club and claim that anything that happens there is 'folk song' or has there to be some general consensus (ie definition) of what folk is before the context becomes 'designated'?

Observation would suggest the latter to be the general case. These people are Folkies; Folk Fans and Enthusiasts; very often performers in their own right, facilitating a context in the name of folk.   

Context is a good deal more than the physical space, and entirely depends on the designation of the occasion. For example, during The Fylde Folk Festival the Marine Hall in Fleetwood is designated as a folk venue; on the stage I have seen such folk acts as Jez Lowe & Debby McClatchy. On New Year, however, on the same stage, I saw, for my sins, Ken Dodd. The Christmas before last I saw The Fleetwood Choral Society performing The Messiah. Interestingly, one of the singers (my father-in-law as it happens) regularly sings at our Folk Club here in Fleetwood too, but always Traditional.

When I say Folk has always been a matter of context, I'm referring to the conditions of the 1954 Definition which are everything to do with context and nothing to do with genre - social context, cultural context, human context, the context of folk process.

I suspect The Revival defined the parameters of Folk as we understand them today. Besides which I see neither Sam Larner or Walter Parson as being merely Folk Singers - they are Traditional Singers, and thus their songs are defined by a higher criteria (dare I say the 1954 Definition?) than anything we might call Folk.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 11:15 AM

Sminky
This thread is riddled with references to folk venues as part of the definition - I believe I dealt with both.
'Even the 1954 Definition doesn't outline Folk in terms of genre'
Does it have to? No definition, no matter how comprehensive, tells me everything I need to know about a subject but merely acts at a pointer to where I should look if I wish to understand the subject further.
Your 'designated' certainly doesn't - hence the gross inaccracy of your statement that you know what to expect at a folk club (personally I go to my local for conviviality and to a clearly defined music venue to listen to the music of my choice.
I used to know, more or less, what to expect in a folk club; I stopped going when that ceased to be the case. The changes that took place in the revival (it's often forgotten thet that is what we are part of - a revival of folksong) robbed me of my right to choose what I listened to-in the unlikely event of your idea becoming accepted, that would only formalise this situation.
You said earlier that in going to a folk club we should leave our preconceptions and expectations at the door (I think that's how you put it). This is nonsense; nobody does that, whether it is classical music, jazz.... whatever we choose to listen to. To suggest otherwise is an affront on our taste and judgement. Magical Mystery Tour might have been alright for The Beatles - but sorry, I want to be able to choose. I've long outgrown lucky dips.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM

"To suggest otherwise is an affront on our taste and judgement."

Sounds more like it's an afront to Carroll's tastes and judgement to me, because, and I can't over emphasise this point, my taste and judgement are far from affronted, so, please, Carroll, stop trying to speak for everybody else, because you don't!

I like the ideas of A Magical Mystery Tour and a lucky dip, makes life far more exciting (hmmmm...Magical Mystery Tour played on melodeons, fiddle, and other folk oriented instruments...there's a thought...)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 12:34 PM

I speak for me and no-one else, nor have I ever claimed to; I listen to music on the basis of my taste and judgement, nobody elses.
If you want to indulge in a Magical Mystery Tour, feel free to do so and don't impoes it on the rest of us. Where did this 'Carroll' come from - my name is Jim Carroll - just because I beat you four nil at spelling.
For ***** sake grow up - arrogant twat.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 12:50 PM

Is name calling all you have to offer, Carroll, it appears so to me.
Your own arrogance sweats itself out of every single one of you missives, so, please.....anyway, I'll leave you with this, with apologies to Richard Thompson and Dave Swarbrick.

"Rise for the hangman"
Your pleasure is that we should rise
You're the judge and the jury
At this jester's assize.

By the by, the 1954 definition?...irrelevant..it makes a great bitching post, thus avoiding having to look at some of the real issues facing the "folk" community (such as it is)suitable venues, or lack thereof is one I can think of right of the top of my head, attracting people to said venues, (people who don't know about nor do give a tinkers toss for "1954")


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 01:16 PM

You can call me Jim


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:05 PM

The 1956 Definition Of Folk


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:06 PM

"The organisers of the above"
So how do we know what we are going to be given when we pay our pennies at the door - presumably anything from Come Into The Garden Maud to ballads of more than five minutes duration.
"Observation would suggest the latter to be the general case."
But you've given us 'Maud' - where does she fit into the scheme of things.
You have carefully sidestepped all the arkward questions (or backflipped, as in the case of knowing what to expect at a folk club), so I ask again - if one of your 'designated' organisers put on a string quartette playing Schubert's 'Trout' (or Ken Dodd and The Fleetwood Choral Society performing The Messiah) would that then fall under the 'folk' umnbrella?
What do you do about the fragmentation that could (and in some cases has) taken place; what are we passing on what do we point to and say - "that's what I mean"?
"I suspect The Revival defined the parameters of Folk as we understand them today."
Why should you suspect that? The revival stumbled across folk song at a time when the world was listening to Max Bygraves singing 'I'm A Pink Toothbrush'. You can't imagine the relief (and pride) in finding something that was ours rather than coming from the music industry's sausage machine, yet you would happily take that away from us by not just ignoring what it says on the tin, but tearing the label off altogether.   
As I said, the term folk has been used to describe the cultural input of 'ordinary' people like me, and probably you, for 160 years. It has been used to define the creations of those peole since the beginning of the 20th century. The revival did not have to define any parameters, they were firmly in place when they came to the music and have remained so ever since, despite the reactionary attempts to take the credit for our music away from us.
Sam Larner and Harry Cox had no objection to being described as folk singers; the term was well in place when HMV put out records of Joseph Taylor.
Walter described himself as such and his songs as folk songs He had been differentiating between his varios types of song since he came home from the army in 1946 - we have his notebooks of songs to prove it.
Jim Carroll
PS If it is 'merely a folk singer' why is it so important that you include wha you do as 'folk'?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:25 PM

A magical mystery tour or a musical lucky dip does sound like it could be quite exciting. But why describe it as a "folk [insert context of choice here]"?

If I go to a jazz club, I can expect to hear jazz. If I go to a classical concert, I can expect to hear classical. If I go to the opera, I can expect to hear opera. If the local pub offers a "soul night" or "60's night" I know what to expect. So why is it apparently unreasonable to expect to be able to go to a folk club and to hear some folk music?

I am prepared to take a broader view of "folk" than Jim, although I am sympathetic to his point of view. But accepting that "folk" now means more than "traditional" does not mean accepting that it includes absolutely everything.

Actually, I don't think the situation is quite as either Jim or SS are painting. I think there are still plenty of venues where you will hear both 1954 traditional and "folk", and not very much acoustic pop.

I still think it's necessary to try to establish a boundary between folk and other music. SS's point of view is that if you believe it's folk then it is folk, which has a certain hippyish charm but is ultimately a purely personal definition which is of no help when trying to communicate with others about the music we all claim to share an interest in. But after more than 700 posts I think it is clear we are not going to agree on this.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:37 PM

Threads with 1954 in the title are like a bad marriage, both sides pressing the other's button, the recepient pleased to have said button pressed to give them another opportunity to state their case in a fractionally different way. Each party convinced of the absolute rightness of their case, evidence marshalled, the tiniest of nits picked until sated with their own excess they retire to avoid contact until the next opportunity.

Mudcat 1954 counselling anyone?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:45 PM

I'm not quite sure what a "designated folk context" consists of. I have sung what I thought were folk songs in living rooms, and for audiences in meeting rooms, at banquets, in classrooms, in gymnasiums, in the lounge in one of the women's residence halls at Seattle University, in Seattle University's Pigott Auditorium, in a ballroom at the University of Washington Student Union Building, in another ballroom in the Edmond Meany Hotel, at a meeting of retired airline stewardesses, in parks, on the deck of the schooner Wawona, on a dock at the Port of Everett, in a library auditorium, several times in a church parish house and a couple of times in the church itself. Oh, also in the Boeing Airplane Company lunchroom. I once sang in a strip club in San Francisco. I didn't know it was a strip club when they hired me, and I didn't go over all that well; the customers weren't there to hear folk songs.

Did any of these qualify as a "designated folk context?" I can't say that I heard anyone declare any such designation at any of these places. . . .   Perhaps what I sang were not folk songs at all. If not, what were they?

Is it the context that defines the songs sung there as folk songs? Or is it the folk songs that define the venue as a folk context?

(. . . chicken—> egg—> chicken—> egg—> chicken—> egg. . . .)

####

Having just read the 1954 definition for the eleventy-fourteenth time, I find that I am in agreement with it. Works for me.

My bookshelves contain many song books, including the collections of Sharp, the Lomaxes, Carl Sandburg, Evelyn Kendrick Wells, Richard Chase, MacEdward Leach, and many others, along with songbooks consisting of songs recorded by well-known and not so well-known singers (Joan Baez, Peggy Seeger, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Tom Glaser, et al). I didn't just learn songs from these books, I read the texts as well, texts written by collectors of folk songs, scholars in the field, ethnomusicologists. In addition, I studied at the University of Washington with Dr. David C. Fowler, a ballad scholar and author of A Literary History of the Popular Ballad and several other books. In the early 1960s, I attended the Berkeley Folk Festivals, where I attended workshops with luminaries in the field, performers such as Almeda Riddle, Jean Redpath, Joan Baez, Sam Hinton, Mike Seeger, Mississippi John Hurt, Doc Watson, Peggy Seeger, Ewan MacColl and scholars and collectors such as Archie Green, Alan Lomax, and Charles Seeger, and often had opportunities for informal conversations with them. So I'm coming at this with a bit more behind me than the liner notes on my record collection.

And I have passed on what I have learned as a performer, a teacher, and as a participant in workshops.

As far as definitions and word usage is concerned, if I want to know the meaning of a term in physics, I ask a physicist. If I want to know the meaning of a medical term, I ask a doctor. I may be funny that way, but I find that sort of thing helps me avoid talking a lot of nonsense.

But—be that as it may.

Where do I fit in all of this? Do I regard myself as a "folk singer?" Not really, for a number of reasons. I am urban-born and raised and most of the music I heard as I grew up was on the radio, and ran the gamut from "Your Hit Parade" to "Grand Ole Opry" to "The Metropolitan Opera" and back around again, including, from time to time, a few folk songs (Burl Ives' radio program in the 1940s, "The Wayfaring Stranger" and Alan Lomax's folk music programs on "American School of the Air"). I did not learn songs at my grandmother's knee. Although I had no singing ambitions really, when I was in my late teens, I took some singing lesson, largely because some of my friends did (one of them went on to sing in Broadway musicals, and two went into opera).

My up close introduction to folk music occurred shortly after I entered the University of Washington (majoring in English Literature with ambitions of becoming a writer) and met several people who were into folk music, sang, played the guitar, etc. One of these was Sandy Paton, a fine singer who is currently the head of Folk-Legacy Records. Determining early on that I would like to make a career for myself as a singer of folk songs and ballads, I began learning songs at a great rate, took more voice lessons, and supplemented the folk guitar I learned from Walt Robertson by taking classic guitar lessons.

Soon I started getting paid to sing. I did some programs about folk music on educational television, then began singing regularly in the clubs and coffeehouses that were beginning to open, did concerts, folk festivals, more television. . . .

I am a performer. An entertainer. Simply put, I am a singer-guitarist whose repertoire consists primarily (but not exclusively) of traditional folk songs and ballads. I am also something of a ballad scholar, because I find this knowledge aids me immeasurably in my ability to perform these songs and, avoiding the tendency to deliver a ten minute lecture by way of introducing a three minute song, I find that my audiences do appreciate learning something about backgrounds of the songs.

I sing these songs, not because they are "folk" or "traditional," I sing them because, for various reasons, I like them. I like to sing them and I like to hear others sing them, and I find that enough people, both "folkies" and "non-folkies, " like them sufficiently well for me to have made at least a marginal living by singing them.

My quibble with the desire of some people to broaden the definition of "folk" (and some people want to do it to "traditional" also) to include anything they want to include, along with songs they have written themselves, first, renders the word essentially meaningless, and second, it strikes me as a disingenuous attempt to imply that the songs they have written have characteristics and qualities which they may or may not have and tries to stamp them with an imprimatur that they have not yet earned. It is misleading, and rather than increasing the "folk community," this practice can drive away people when they expect to hear something in line with the 1954 definition and find that what they are being offered instead is something quite different.

And it can give a false impression of what I, or other singers like me, actually sing. If someone hears that I sing "folk songs," then under the impression that I'm a singer-songwriter, they may stay away, when, in actuality, I sing the kind of songs they like. Or it may draw people to a performance only to hear me sing a bunch of hoary old ballads instead of hearing new songs, penned by myself, that they expected to hear.

I believe in truth in packaging. If clubs who advertise themselves as "folk clubs" were to adopt different words ("traditional folk" and "contemporary folk" for example), or at least make some attempt to make clarify what actually goes on there, it might alleviate all those cuts and bruises that occur at the door when people dashing for the exit collide with people coming in.

Just a modest suggestion.

Frankly, it makes little difference to me. As long as there are friends who like to get together to sing and listen to the same kind of songs that I like to sing and listen to, and as long as there are enough people around who want to come and hear me when I perform because they know what I do and know what to expect, then I'm fine.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM

Can I clarify my own position here. My greatest influence was Ewan MacColl, someone who was in at the beginning of the revival, who breathed life into 137 of the Child ballads, who introduced me to these, and to the bothy songs, the industrial repertoire and the whole vast range of the folk repertoire, and who WROTE AT LEAST TWICE AS MANY SONGS BASED ON TRADITIONAL STYLES AS ANY SONGWRITER IN MY LIFETIME. Not only do I have no objection to modern songs being performed at folk clubs, I think that the clubs would be little more than museums without the input of new songs.
A major part of our work in The Critics Group was songwriting classes; Peggy produced New City Songster, which ran for almost 20 years and into 20 issues - all contemporary songs mainly based on folk styles. Ewan, Peggy and other members of the group were constantly being asked by clubs that booked them not to sing their contemporary - and refused, but would rather turn down a booking than comply.
Of my own repertoire of around 300 songs when I was singing, around 25% of them were contemporary (though as hard as I tried I never managed to write one).
Our only stipulation in including them in our activities was that they were not, and would probably never become folk songs. As far as we were concerned, the folk tradition was not just to be enjoyed for what it was, but also as a template to create new songs.
Pat's and my intentions when we embarked on collecting was not just to record songs, but also as much information on the tradition as we could - more than half of our collection consists of interviews with traditional singers.
Contrary to what we had been told, we found singers who did discriminate, who did separate their varying repertoirs into catergories, maybe not using the same terminology as we did (though many did refer to themselves as 'folk' and 'traditional' singers). Walter Pardon was foremost among the singers in doing this and filled tapes with his opinions on the subject.
As far as we were concerned they were traditional singers (singers from a tradition) singing traditional folk songs; folk referring to the people from whom the songs originated, tradition to the filtering, adapting and remaking of the songs that filled the gap between how they started out and how they ended up when they got to us.
As tempting as it is, tradition just doesn't hack it as far as what goes on in the clubs. The ones I have been involved in have always presented a mixture of old and new songs, but these have always borne a recognisable relationship to each other.
This is a far cry from using the term as a dustbin to dump anything that will not fit into any other catergory, or to accommodate singers of other types of songs who, frankly, were not good enough as performers to make it in their preferred genre.
This latter was summed up perfectly for me some years ago by a very nice man I was chatting to at the bar, who had just sang a light opera piece (not very well). He told me "I like coming here, I don't get asked to sing anywhere else"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 07:23 PM

My apologies, Jim, I should have realised you would have a broader view.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 07:48 PM

Let me make sure that I've got this clear, Jim. Are you saying that you consider it acceptable for some songs, that aren't folk songs according to the 1954 definition, to be sung in folk clubs?

While you are at it, would you like to respond to my post of 24 Mar 09 - 11:48 AM, before you went on holiday?

Won't be able to reply for the next few days as I'm off to the Gosport & Fareham Easter Festival to help run some workshops in my continuing campaign to lower standards. All concertina players welcome.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 08:04 PM

Why the Perry Mason act, Snail? I don't think Jim's ever said anything different.

My own feeling is that setting up a club with a 1954 Only policy would be setting it up to fail - not least because the MC would have to keep reminding people of it, and bad feeling would ensue. If you've got a 1954 Mostly policy - or an Anything Else Mostly policy - it doesn't neeed enforcing; the regulars will lead by example and everyone else can pick it up. On an average night at the Beech you can expect to hear three or four contemporary songs, along with around 20 traditional. I think that balance works well, & hope it stays like that.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 08:14 PM

Just seeking clarification. The argument seems to be - Folk Clubs should put on Folk Music. Folk Music is defined by the 1954 conference. If it is acceptable to perform music that falls outside the 1954 definition, then what is allowable is purely subjective and SS can have whatever he wants.

1954 + Ewan MacColl doesn't work for me as a definition.

Really must get to bed. It's going to be a busy weekend.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 04:08 AM

Yes, I do believe the clubs can and should present material that is not strictly 'folk' I always have and I believe that this was the aim of the people who set up the revival in the first place - one I have always gone along with 100%.
But I believe that what goes on in the clubs should lie within recognisable parameters, if for no other reason than those we hope to attract will know what they are being attracted to. Also, so those of us who are already involved have a choice of what we listen to. Can anybody seriously claim that what SS is proposing falls within any parameters and gives us any choice other than 'come in, sit down and take whatever type of music we choose to give you - and if you don't like it, don't come back'? The fact that you have chosen 'folk' as a description for your club commits you to presenting something that we can recognise as such.
For me, there are two sides to this question. On the one hand, as a reseacher I need to be clear of what I mean by 'folk' if I am writing or speaking on the subject, which I do regularly. I also need to relate the subject to its fellow disciplines, folklore, folk custom, folktale, folk music, folk dance, all of which have fallen within our scope of work over the last thirty-odd years. No problem here; collections are still being published, articles and books written, conferences and seminars held, all more or less adhering to the 54 definition. Because of this there is consensus - we can communicate.
On the other hand, I came to folk through the clubs. I still get an enormous amount of pleasure from listening to the music that first attracted me back in 1962 (a 21st birthday present of MacColl's Chorus From The Gallows).
I would very much like to be able to point to the folk clubs and say to others who haven't yet had that pleasure, "there, try a puff on that". I don't feel I can do that any longer with many of the clubs being what they have become - cultural dustbins.
There is a further aspect to this.
I grew up with the idea that people like me never produced anything of value artistically; it was hammered into me at school that if I wanted culture I would have to turn to my 'betters' for it. I was actually told by a science teacher that all I needed when I left school was to be able to tot up my pay packet at the end of the week.
Then people like Ewan and Bert introduced me to this huge body of songs, music and tales and told me it was made and shaped by people just like me.
That's a gift I will treasure till I run out of puff.
I will respond to Bryan's request in full later.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 04:49 AM

I was born in 1954.......Does that make me traditional or contemporary?
Do I care?
Not really....


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 05:04 AM

Glad that cat is out of the bag. If it's not strictly traditional we're in the heady position of mere individuals deciding on what's played based on style, context, location with only the line differing on preference. Which is what some of us have argued happens in the last 700 posts.

Phew!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 05:30 AM

Snail, you said earlier on that the Lewes Arms club aims to

"provide a programme which reflects the club's long-established interest in traditional music and song and contemporary folk music/song derived from the tradition."

Jim says,

"Not only do I have no objection to modern songs being performed at folk clubs, I think that the clubs would be little more than museums without the input of new songs. ... As far as we were concerned, the folk tradition was not just to be enjoyed for what it was, but also as a template to create new songs."

I said a couple of comments ago,

"On an average night at the Beech you can expect to hear three or four contemporary songs, along with around 20 traditional. I think that balance works well, & hope it stays like that."

Anyone who didn't know better would think that we were all in agreement.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 05:36 AM

On reviewing this thread I can't help noting that on one side of the argument we've got people like Don Firth and Jim Carroll who have 'earned their spurs', 'sweated at the coal face' or ... well, choose your metaphor, met and listened to the luminaries - both traditional singers and revivalists, read all the books and thought long and hard.

On the other side we've got people who are desperate to have their favourite musical forms classified as 'Folk'(why, oh why??) and start throwing insults around when they can't get their own way.

I know whose judgement I trust!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 05:58 AM

The cult of personality argument. If the arrivistes bit refers to me, I'm in no effort to have 'my favourite music' become folk. I believer the word is fairly useless nowadays as a descriptor and have no 'favourite music' anyway.
How can a C21st sensibility seriously have such a thing if they're over 18?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 07:04 AM

Me, I don't want any thing accepted as anything. I'm more than happy with the 1954 definition as a description of traditional music(s). I just don't think that's what the folk scene gives us. The seeds of this were surely sown at the start of the revival when it was decreed acceptable to write new songs in the style of whichever tradition you were part of (which seems reasonable). This is, however, a very subjective thing. One person's traditional style song is another person's crock of shite that shouldn't be allowed near 'folk' with a bargepole. Like Pip, I'd rather listen to Espers than, say, Vin Garbutt, but I know who the folk club scene would accept and who they wouldn't. Yet I would say that Espers' tunes, once all the marvellous psychedelic flimflammery is stripped away, sound more like ersatz folk ballads than Vin's or some of the other folk club singer songwriters do. But as with all these things, once you move away from the body of work that is considered the tradition, it all enters the realm of individual perception.

I also think this debate is partly about some people feeling more comfortable with rules, parameters and boundaries and others finding such things claustrophobic. If I'm right, this debate isn't so much about music but about the individual's understanding of music an an extension of their personality type. Using Snail (sorry Bryan) as an example, despite not actually knowing him, in terms of taste and activity he appears a bit of a classic 1954er, but he clearly has a healthily anarchic streak that rails against being boxed in as such.... marks out of ten for this pithy analysis, Bryan?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 10:42 AM

Can I just add that no value judgement (such as rule followers bad, anarchists good - or vice versa) is implied above... and the proposition is based on the premise that most people on either side of the debate, as well as the outfielders such as Snail and myself, all identify as people who enjoy traditional music(s).


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 12:31 PM

I also think this debate is partly about some people feeling more comfortable with rules, parameters and boundaries and others finding such things claustrophobic. If I'm right, this debate isn't so much about music but about the individual's understanding of music an an extension of their personality type.

Nope. Parameters and boundaries are amorphous for me, and rules that are more important than the situation they apply to are nothing but a chain around the neck. I like clear definitions, but that's a long way from liking rules and boundaries. I think what I'm trying to say is that definitions, for me, are more in the head, and boundaries carry a connotation of having more to do with how I live my life. Perhaps it would be better to stop ascribing personality quirks to people based on which side of an intellectual debate they are on.

I'm reminded of a co-worker who is a yoga instructor. She was grousing about all the things that are referred to as yoga but aren't, including some things I would have accepted as part of yoga without question. I told her that it was the same with me for folk music -- lots of things get called folk music that aren't. She was amazed that I didn't consider Joni Mitchell or Cat Stevens folk music. It was an interesting moment for both of us, finding out that things we take for granted are often not accepted as such by aficionados. It's hard to have a clear conversation when the same words mean different things to different people. Fortunately, I don't feel any need for anyone else to agree with my definitions of anything. The only reason for seeking definition is so that we can have a conversation from a somewhat similar framework.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 01:07 PM

The worry is that definitions are used simply as a barrier to keep 'them' out. Any enthusiam has its adherents, classic car fans will claim nothing but a pre-72 model can be considered a true Jag, or fishing without a split cane Barder isn't really fishing.

It's my misfortune to be irritated by self-styled gurus who want to draw lines where it suits them without applying serious intellectual rigour and I'm far from convinced by what I've heard. I disliked it at school and I don't think my iconoclastic streak will change now. Besides, music - especially music of the people - is too important to be delivered into the hands of gatekeepers to say yea or nay.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 01:08 PM

"The only reason for seeking definition is so that we can have a conversation from a somewhat similar framework."
Carve this in stone someone.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 01:39 PM

It's my misfortune to be irritated by self-styled gurus who want to draw lines where it suits them without applying serious intellectual rigour

M3 T00!!!!1!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 01:50 PM

I'm anti-line Pip, anywhere and always. Take Jim's stone and mark it with nothing more permanent than chalk.
We just don't need definitions. They're cranky and the people who insist on them need to ask 'why?'


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:06 PM

"The only reason for seeking definition is so that we can have a conversation from a somewhat similar framework."

"We just don't need definitions. They're cranky and the people who insist on them need to ask 'why?'"

And therein lies the fundamental philosophical distinction. The first is necessary for scholarship, the second reflects Steven Colbert's concept of 'truthiness' . . .


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:26 PM

We just don't need definitions. They're cranky and the people who insist on them need to ask 'why?'

One might ask why someone who thinks this is taking part in a discussion that's about finding definitions???

Also, why does anyone need to ask themselves why they like definitions? It makes as much sense to say that anyone who rejects definitions needs to ask 'why'. Which is to say, no sense at all. Different people are different than each other. Again, it might be good to stop ascribing personality quirks -- or make prescriptions for improvement -- to people based on an intellectual discussion.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:28 PM

"They're cranky and the people who insist on them need to ask 'why?'"
You've been given the reason many times on this thread and elsewhere.
In the end all you are entitled to say is YOU don't need definitions.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:31 PM

"The first is necessary for scholarship"

That may be so. I doubt whether those who tune into Folk on 2 and hear they're in for the best of 'folk, roots and acoustic music' engage in some impromtu critical theory before deciding if Mike Harding's proposition is correct.

If I thought this board was about scholarship rather than pleasure I'd have stuck with kerrangandsemiotics.com


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:37 PM

Definitions are necessary for reasonable conversation on topics of interest, and they are helpful when booking entertainment as well.

Glueman - does that refer to your poison of choice? I'm an ale man myself. A little bourbon never hurt, either.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:45 PM

The proposition is fiendishly simple - does a definition matter to listening pleasure? Can fulfilled lives be had listening to folk music without any notion of the '54 definitions? Can you like traditional music that fits 1954, stuff that sounds like the songs Bert Lloyd made up and modern acoustic music and derive pleasure from all without troubling where the lines are?

Is folk music principally about communal enjoyment or an academic discipline?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 03:13 PM

'Either this or that' is a fallacy. Folk as entertainment and folk as a subject of intellectual study have both been discussed in this thread. My feelings: of course folk/traditional music is entertainment - that's how we all ended up here - but is more than JUST entertainment.

But if it's all just entertainment to you, why do YOU care what anyone calls it? If you want to make Folk a pet word for 'stuff you like' then why the attachment to word anyway?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Darowyn
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 03:24 PM

Definitions are needed by lawyers and scientists. They require an impersonal objective boundary to be drawn.
The 1954 definition is based on Process- how the pieces came to be.
However, most people recognise musical genres by that elusive quality, style.
The Cheese analogy has come up a few times earlier. Define Cheese by process- milk treated by biological means, and you will get some odd results. Yoghurt must therefore be cheese- yet it is not seen to be. Fromage Frais, the same applies-though we won't even translate it, in case it is mistaken for cheese. Non-dairy cheese, made from beans, is cheese, or at least cheese substitute, though it lies outside the definition. I'd suggest that most people decide whether or not a substance is cheese by taste and functional value as a foodstuff.
Just as with Folk music. How often have we read, "I know it when I hear it"? Outside Legal or scientific fields, we recognise the style, so a composed song that sounds like a folk song, e.g "Fiddlers Green" is seen as a folk song.
The problem is that style is not a black and white issue. There is a continuum, from 100% authentic folk to "somewhat influenced".
It is not sensible to attempt to draw a line, because there are going to be rational arguments between those who believe that a musical genre is inclusive and those who believe that it is exclusive.
This applies to discussions- which can be equally virulent- about Folk, Jazz, Country, and countless Electronic Dance Music genres.
I don't go along with the argument that we need rock solid definitions for discussion- it is perfectly normal human behaviour for quite long discussions to take place where people disagree wildly about the definition of the topic under consideration. (see above)
Cheers
Dave
p.s.
I'm right and everybody who disagrees is wrong, of course- but that's what they all say!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 03:25 PM

"why do YOU care what anyone calls it?"

I don't. Couldn't care less, truly. I'm responding to the OPs question. My position is the communal pleasure business has to come first, with everything following from that. SS appeared to imply - and I don't want to put words in his mouth - 1954 had run its course as a description of what happens now in the name of folk, if you feel traditional music and folk music are synonymous.

My impression is even those with a laissez-faire or populist attitude to folk do not decry the '54 framework as a definition of strictly traditional music - but that's a different question.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 03:39 PM

The proposition is fiendishly simple - does a definition matter to listening pleasure? Can fulfilled lives be had listening to folk music without any notion of the '54 definitions? Can you like traditional music that fits 1954, stuff that sounds like the songs Bert Lloyd made up and modern acoustic music and derive pleasure from all without troubling where the lines are?

Is folk music principally about communal enjoyment or an academic discipline?


Sorry, glueman. The only thing we might draw from this is that you've not been reading the same discussion as the rest of us. So many people have been at such pains to say over and over and over again that none of this has anything to do with what we listen to, what we play, what other people should do, or why.

Just to be clear, no, folk music is not primarily - not even mostly - about academic discipline. You foolishly present it as an either/or proposition. Like most fields of human endeavor, it's about a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Including, for some, intellectual curiosity and discussion. But saying, as you are doing, that anyone's interest in folk music is primarily for any reason other than the love of the music itself is silly. I could also call it stupid, if you are drawing this conclusion based on the contents of this thread, and/or insulting, again based on the contents of this thread. For someone who claims to dislike lines, you are certainly drawing some.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 03:48 PM

Interestingly, if one goes back to the OP, no attempt is made to define folk, merely to describe what happens in places and contexts that label themselves or are labelled as folk. The opener merely suggests that the 1954 definition may bear little resemblance to what happens in the name of folk in 2009 and invites discussion. Other people decided to turn it into another what is folk thread, which of course delighted SS and allowed him to play the mischievous prankster card to great effect. Meanwhile we are back to the same old circular argument, with a few variations.

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but one thing that does interest me is the new songs in the style of issue Jim wrote about a few posts back. Putting aside the question of whether or not they are folk songs for a while, I find it difficult to understand how this works, other than: i) as a gateway drug to anything goes; ii) highly subjectively (sounds like is in the ear of the beholder); iii) via what I shall call the Darowyn method (I can't put it into words, but I know it when I hear it). I'm probably in group three as I'm not a music scholar or any such thing, so I approach my listening pleasure intuitively rather than academically. I know what type of traditional song flips my universe inside out - but by the same token I know what kind of written song has the same effect. In this scenario, formal definitions are less important. But that's purely a personal thing for me.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 04:08 PM

John P I was responding to the original poster. I fail to see how calling me stupid adds or detracts from his proposition, though name calling is always fun tithead. My conclusion from reading your posts and others is that folk shifts (as I suggested many posts ago) between being an intellectual post-rationalisation of the discoveries of the folk revival and a type of music.

My opinion is that an aural phenomenon (we're talking music here, not dance or lore) will defy historic conventions no matter how well intended or appropriate at the time they were written, to accommodate what happens on the ground. History suggests I'm right, folk (the folk in the title) has shifted its current definition away from the one intended 55 years ago.
Do please concentrate.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 04:12 PM

800


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 04:28 PM

"does a definition matter to listening pleasure?"
Possibly not; though I would not attempt to insist on how others seek enjoyment.
But as a punter looking for folk music, how do I go about finding it and distinguishing it from the tat that SS would try to sell mein the guise of.....?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 06:57 PM

I rather liked feral folk JC, but the name's been baggsied for casual performances. Feral suggests a feeling for natural hybridity, music that outgrows the genre or performer; an aural lamprey, a bracket fungus, considered trifles, the end of roll stuff that defies definition and lives down the back of folk's settee, enthralling and outraging equally.

It deserves its own title certainly because technology has accelerated the changes that previously took centuries. Perhaps Fleetwood is a Darwinian hothouse, a Thomas Huxley to Lewes's Bishop Wilberforce?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 03:08 AM

Feral folk - hmm - sounds like a trip to the zoo by the Blue Peter team.
I have always seen the need for fine tuning the existing definition, but unless and until the singing traditions rise up from the grave and begin to incorporate the navel-gazing mumblers into the repertoire, I really can't see the point in re-definition, especially as the term is doing so well outside the folk-club greenhouses.
Let's face it, this thread started as an attempted challenge of the 1954 definition, and when that fell (at the first fence, as far as I'm concerned), it came down to "Ah well, definitions don't matter anyway."
Not long after I stumbled on this forum (don't think I was a member then) I got involved in a long, convoluted discussion with some burke whose argument ran something like this:
"If I wrote a song and passed it on to my mate, who then passed it on to his mate, then doesn't that make it traditional". His (I think it was a he; women tend to have much more down-to-earth logic about them) conclusion - that I should go off and find a designation other than 'traditional' for what I was doing.
Language doesn't work like that.
All that was, and this has been, is an Orwellian exercise by a small group within a small group, to manipulate our language for their own convenience - Newspeak - so to speak. Otherwise, I'm sure they would have been able to answer some of the fundamental contraditions in their argument. As it was, they didn't even address them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Darowyn
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 03:46 AM

You have written eloquently about why traditional music means so much to you on another thread, Jim, and why you are so ready to leap to its defence, but I cannot agree with your assertion that there have been no counter arguments to your point of view. You are wilfully ignoring what you do not wish to read.
Dictionaries regularly update the meanings of words in the light of common parlance and usage.
Words do mean what people use them to mean. Can you refute that by any argument or example?
As an example of the "more down to earth" usage of language by women, I heard on the radio last week, a woman describing something that she and her family had done on holiday for the past two years.
"It has become a family tradition" she said.
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 03:59 AM

What an extraordinary analysis of the thread! And typically myopic if I may say so JC. Orwellian? Newspeak? Challenge? Who are these barbarians at the gate of folk's civilisation?

Three things - traditional music, played exclusively almost nowhere (why one asks, and why dilute it with stuff traditionalists find incompatible with 1954?), second, the thing called folk which gets its own shows and festivals and thirdly what seems to happen in some clubs; the operetta, bawd, punk rock standard, 60s pop melancholia, sublimely talent free anarchy and free for all.

Number two has become 'folk' by any rational standards, one remains 'the tradition' - apparently too esoteric to support its own repertoire unaided - and three is presumably your 'navel-gazing mumblers', though in fairness I should point out some of my kosher '54 experiences involved ballardeers who were complete strangers to the notion of public performance.

That's yer contemporary folk scene mate!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 04:04 AM

I'd suggest that most people decide whether or not a substance is cheese by taste and functional value as a foodstuff.

I love the idea of Folk Processed Cheese, and the wholesome rusticity implied by Cottage Cheese (which, in the words of Vic Reeves & Bob Mortimer, is not really a cheese but a residue, but a residue that is good for you) which, when pressed, is transformed into Farmer's Cheese, though I believe the Canadians have their own interpretation of that one.

Yesterday, being Good Friday, I bought myself a muckle braw block of Bowland, a particularly folksy cheese being a basic Creamy Lancashire enhanced by various sweet spices and fruits giving it character of, dare I say, fruitcake, though not one that could be said to be in any way discontented, or yet manifesting that discontent through any sort of complaint at all. On the contrary - for it is very good with chocolate, and when grilled on crumpets (Warburton's of course) the effect is akin to John J singing Thousand or More - which is to say, one is transported very much elsewhere, beyond the common realm certainly, even though that commonality is the core of Folk, which is, in any case, and I'm this I'm sure we'll all agree, better experienced than talked about. Rather like cheese.

Furthermore, I have been pretty much addicted to Gjetost, otherwise known as Gudbrandsdalsost, since a summer of 1969, a few weeks of which were spent in Norway, where I also acquired a lingering taste for the Eventyr of Absjorsen & Moe that form the core of my repertoire to this very day. My favourite Traditional English Song I refer to as Camembert Acoustique, which somehow acknowledges one of my favourite albums of all time and the fact that a certain Justly Renowned Singer of Traditional Folk Song & Balladry has been depicted wearing a t-shirt emblazoned with the cover art. Cheese is mentioned in this song, along with other dairy produce, with the suggestion of sexual lubricant, so one might well ponder the type of cheese in question. Butter is famous in this respect of course, largely thanks to a 1973 film starring Marlon Brando, thus giving rise to my other name for this song Ultimo Tango a Wells-Next-The-Sea, which we visited last year on our Norfolk Holiday and were Much Impressed. Indeed, we had a notion that Butter and Cheese and All* would be a blinding name for a shop specialising in Norfolk dairy produce.

In our fridge right now are two other types of cheeses - a tub light Philadelphia (used mostly in cooking; goes well with pasta and spinach) and extra light Laughing Cow, my favourite cheese since childhood. Ten years ago if one collected the required number of tokens and sent them off with a postal order for 50p (or some such pittance) one would receive a Laughing Cow Alarm clock. Mine still has pride of place in my office, despite running a constant ten-minutes fast; the alarm, however, is the most un-cow-like laugh you might imagine, but then again never having actually heard a cow laugh I couldn't possibly say. Perhaps it samples an actual cow, laughing, in which case it is the perfect sound for this devilish little timepiece which is my pride and joy notwithstanding. I call her Henry Cow, after the band that never laughed, although the erstwhile drummer is credited with the Helsinki joke later used by Peter Blegvad in one of his Leviathan cartoons.

In the Miles Na Gopaleen Catechism of Cliché it is asked (and if I paraphrase I do so from memory) Which two substances are commonly held to be dissimilar?, to which the answer is, of course, Chalk and Cheese. I think perhaps some here like our Folk as Cheese, whilst others prefer Chalk. I can't think of too much to say about chalk, despite the lingering pedagogical associations which might well lead me down some other path, away from school as once I wondered, and am wandering still, happily astray, munching on a big block of Edam, and saving the wax to fashion into little red penguins as been my habit now for more than forty years.   

* For a video of my singing this song see : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3FRvTDWqnM, though Jim will no doubt find it more akin to bad pop singing than the True Folk it ought to be. For this I most assuredly do not apologise in advance.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 04:24 AM

SS
Thanks for the clip - made my point perfectly.
Later
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 04:44 AM

made my point perfectly.

But what exactly is your point, Jim? Other than to establish there is such a thing as Folk Correctness, something so febrile that it no longer exists except in the haunted wet cheese delirious dreams (and nightmares) of the 1954 faithful because they can't bear the thoughts that they might have been wrong all this time, for you were sold a whole raft of specious shit in the first place which had more to do with the collectors than it ever did with the singers.

In this sense the Folk Revival is akin to Walt Disney driving lemmings over a cliff if only to prove that they did this by instinct. It is a gross falsification of the evidence by those whose main cause was to prove a theoretical agenda which had little or no basis in reality.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 05:13 AM

Thanks for the clip, SS. Top stuff!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 05:29 AM

My point is - unless you provide an answer to the contradictions generated by your arguments your point is lost.
Sorry, didn't intend to knee-jerk about your clip; on reflection - 'man sings humorous East Anglian song like an epic ballad while wrestling with a psaltry' should do the trick.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 05:32 AM

Whoops sorry, it wasn't a psaltry, was it, just sounds like one.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 05:41 AM

Can you see daylight from that position Jim? It must take years of training.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 05:51 AM

I tried Gjetost once; I remember it had the tawny colour and the grainy texture of fudge, it tasted of bacon and it made me violently ill. I heard later on that it's made from whey, leading to quite fierce disagreements among cheese cognoscenti about whether it's a cheese in any sense of the word (with Gjetost fans on one side of the argument and everyone else on the other).

Just thought I'd mention it.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 06:37 AM

Whoops sorry, it wasn't a psaltry, was it, just sounds like one.

Funny the amount of Folkies who think my wee fiddle is a psaltery, using the term, as you do, in as an abbreviation of bowed psaltery - an entirely unmusical, unworkable, entirely modern invention which has very little to do with the psaltery in its actual sense, for which see Here (though I'm sure there are better pages). That the entirely bogus bowed psaltery has achieved a certain notoriety amongst the Folky Faithful is interesting, and telling. It is a Modern Folk Instrument, invented as such, to which is often attached the provence implying it is somehow related to the psaltery of old. Nothing could be further from the truth; in fact, in lineage, it descends from certain novelty parlour instruments played in America in the 1920s, such as the Ukelin.

My wee fiddle is a Karadeniz Kemence, aka Black Sea Fiddle, from Turkey, which became one of my instruments of choice completely by accident. It is the ideal instrument for the accompaniment of Traditional English Song & Ballad as I feel the clip more than adequately demonstrates even though, like the arrangement of the song itself, the prelude, interludes and coda are entirely improvised.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 07:05 AM

"bowed psaltery - an entirely unmusical, unworkable....."
Depends on how good a musician you are, I suppose. Peggy Seeger uses to superb effect on the Blood and Roses set, on the ballad Queen Elenor's Confession (I think). Also (among others) on the contemporary song 'Swallow and Trout' (Saturday Night at The Bull and Mouth).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 09:45 AM

More time now.
"because they can't bear the thoughts that they might have been wrong all this time,"
All sniping aside; the problem I have with all this is, despite numerous requests you have failed to tell us what your alternative definition is based on. I still have no idea what you mean by 'designated folk context' so I can only assume that you would put the responsibilty for defining our music into the hands of a group of self-appointed individuals who are not even in the position of reaching some sort of a concensus among themselves. So their/your definition of 'folk' is purely an individual one.
You won't address the contradictions that this raises (string quartette, Dog And Duck vs Pindar of Wakefield, etc) so I can only assume that there are no solutions to them.
I may be a romantic, but I have done the groundwork - have you?
When we started collecting we had an extremely vague idea of what we were getting into. From the word 'go' we made a point of interviewing the people we were recording to attempt to find out how the tradition worked (or had once worked). With the Travellers we were extremely lucky. They still had a living tradition, songs were still being taken in by the community, adapted, remade, and passed on, and most importantly, new songs were still being made and absorbed. All this within a non-literate community.
The point is the 54 definition worked; it needed some tweaking, but it was a valid description of what happened within a given community.
All the work we did is freely accessible to be verified at The British Library or in Merrion Square.
If you can provide any information to show where we went wrong and why our work was "a gross falsification of the evidence by those whose main cause was to prove a theoretical agenda which had little or no basis in reality", I really would be interested to hear it.
Yours in anticipation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 12:44 PM

Gawd! 'e don' 'alf goo on...we've 'eard all before, and I still say play the bloody music and stop rabbiting on about in dusty archives, digital or otherwise.

D''ave any other tunes in your repetoire?

"The point is the 54 definition worked; it needed some tweaking, but it was a valid description of what happened within a given community."

the whole statement is in the past tense...suggestive?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 01:01 PM

"Gawd! 'e don' 'alf goo on...we've 'eard all befor"
Still strugling with the spelling I see.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 02:11 PM

No more than you're struggling to convince all and sundry that 1954 is in anyway, shape or form, relevant


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 02:14 PM

Why do people have to be so childishly rude in these discussions?
As I said before, grow up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 02:25 PM

That's the best you can come up with..? Doesn't bode well for the future does it
I grew up along time ago, you apparently can't leave past where it belongs, in the past.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 03:34 PM

I may be a romantic, but I have done the groundwork - have you?

Oh yes - not that what I'm saying is rocket science exactly, simply a matter of accepting that what happens in The Name of Folk Song these days is anything but Folk Song according to the 1954 Definition.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 04:31 PM

OK, quick quiz. SS, glueman, Rifleman, whoever (you know who you are): complete the following sentence.

I don't mind people using the word 'folk' in lots of different ways because:

(a) I don't care how people use the word 'folk'.

(b) I think it's a good thing that people use the word 'folk' in lots of different ways.

or

(c) I think it's a good thing that people use the word 'folk' in the ways that they use it.

Anyone?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 04:44 PM

You been at the Gjetost again, Pip?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 04:13 AM

Don't bother Pip, you're pissing in the wind if you expect a straight answer to any questions - silence is golden, as the old 'folksong' (as long as it's sung in a designated folk context) says,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 04:43 AM

I didn't understand the questions. Happy easter, passover, eostre anyhow.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 05:12 AM

Sorry about that, Pip; after three bottles of ice cold Greene King Sun Dance last night I was feeling a tad flippant. Coincidently, Sun-Dance is also the word for the weekend on my Forgotten English desk calendar, the belief being that the sun came up dancing on Easter morning. Whatever the truth of that, I did not rise dancing myself this morning; it a very fine beer though - more of a lager I'd say, hence I drink it chilled.

Anyway back to your questions - I don't mind people using the word 'folk' in lots of different ways because.... Seems it's all about not caring, or else thinking, which brings in opinion, and subjectivity, which, as far as is humanly possibly, I'm trying to avoid here by looking at the situation as objectively as possible. And just as I do care, I certainly don't think, because the evidence is overwhelming. So can I say N/A?

The main problem I have with the 1954 Definition (and its conventional interpretation) is that like a lot of other Folkloric theory it romanticises community by effectively denying the creative genius of the individual. My feeling is that the creative work of the singers is overlooked in defining them merely as song carriers, who are part of The Tradition, the mechanism of which is The Folk Process.

Defining a song as Anon or Traditional isn't just saying we don't who the songwriter was, rather it subscribes to the notion that these songs are a product of a cultural process in which individual creativity somehow didn't matter. No doubt this is why the 1954 Definition has absurd clauses as: a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.

It is my increasing conviction that many of the songs we now think of as Traditional are the specific creations of the individual singers who have taken the songs from other individual singers and purposefully adapted them to their own purposes. This is is the Folk Process in a nutshell - and it's still happening. We may well find echoes of John England's Seeds of Love in other songs, but to what extent might Seeds of Love be John England's creation? Or must (in the patronising eyes of Folklorist for whom such a Grubby Rustic couldn't possibly be responsible having created his own song) John England be consigned to the status of song carrier entirely passive to a process of which he is as unaware of as the fish of the water through which it swims?

There is precedence for this cultural paternalism in other aspects of folklore (see, for example, the thread Folklore: The Green man); indeed, it might be argued that our very concept of Folklore is very much the product of such cultural paternalism, the gathering of such Quaint Rusticity for the Amusement of the Gentry. Again, how could these Grubby Illiterate Rustics possibly be responsible for the creation of such beautiful songs? Heavens, they couldn't possibly have written them, so there must be an Oral Tradition to which they themselves are merely paying unwitting and innocent lipservice, and in so doing, continuing The Folk Process - which is something else they couldn't possibly understand.

In working with Seeds of Love last autumn for my Naked Season album it occurred to me that this song was very much John England's creation; a song he'd made out of elements of other songs he'd heard, bringing it together into one cohesive whole as an expression of his personal life experience. A bit of a epiphany - for in singing it I was no longer singing an Anonymous Traditional Folk Song, but a very purposeful and particular creation of a named individual. To hear my version, go to www.myspace.com/sedayne - it's the first song you'll hear there. I won't say anything here about the musical accompaniment (rough music?) but if anyone wants to know, then by all means PM me!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 03:09 PM

…… creative work of the singers is overlooked in defining them merely as song carriers, who are part of The Tradition, the mechanism of which is The Folk Process."
The creative work of the singers is certainly not being overlooked by the definition, on the contrary, the whole folk process acknowledges the creativity of the singers in making, taking and reshaping the songs. The creativity lies in the re-fashioning and interpreting. It just acknowledges the fact that the original creators are unknown.
The term 'song carriers' was used by MacColl to describe singers who may not have been part of a living tradition, but rather had remembered the songs when they were collected.

"Defining a song as Anon or Traditional isn't just saying we don't who the songwriter was,"
That is exactly what it is saying – the author is unknown and the song has passed through an extensive process of recreation and change over distance and time.
Most songs started life as specific creations of individual singers or poets, though there is evidence that some were created by more than one composer.
We don't know whether singers consciously adapted and changed the songs, whether they misheard them, or whether they automatically fitted them in to the style they were used to; we simply don't have that information.
Walter Pardon's tunes have been described as unique (see Mike Yates article in Musical Traditions) yet Walter was not sure whether he was singing them the way he had learned them (he thought he was) or whether he had unconsciously adapted them from standard tunes. One suggestion was that, because he had used a melodeon to memorise the tunes, (he was a fairly rudimentary player) the key he had chosen may have influenced their outcome.

"It is my increasing conviction that many of the songs we now think of as Traditional are the specific creations of the individual singers who have taken the songs from other individual singers and purposefully adapted them to their own purposes".
Can a song taken from another singer be "specific creations of individual singers"? Re-creations yes, that's what the folk process is. Whether the changes are accidental or deliberate are unknown and totally irrelevant to this argument.

"in the patronising eyes of Folklorist for whom such a Grubby Rustic couldn't possibly be responsible having created his own song".
Loaded language such as this from somebody who appears to have not spent a great deal of time talking to traditional singers really doesn't help your case'. Of course country singers have been patronised by some collectors, but no more so than by revival singers who refuse to acknowledge definitions because "traditional singers didn't recognise the difference between the different types of song in their repertoire, so why should we".

"John England be consigned to the status of song carrier……"
Was he; I've always heard him referred to as a traditional singer. Acknowledging as singer as being 'traditional' is not to devalue their role or ability. It might be worth your while biting the bullet and having a closer look at the 'academic' writings of collectors like Lomax, Randolph, Goldstein, Mike Yates and some of the people who stepped out of the rarified atmosphere of the clubs to take a look at the singing traditions first hand.

"Heavens, they couldn't possibly have written them….."
Nobody has ever said that the songs materialised out of thin air; only that we have no idea of their origins.

"The Folk Process - which is something else they couldn't possibly understand."
Again, Walter Pardon understood the folk process quite well; far better than most revivalists I have met see Pat and my article on him entitled 'A Simple Countryman?'
I'm afraid much of what you have said here appears to be an exercise in tearing apart straw men of your own creation. Collecting and scholarship has changed a great deal since Sharp's day – read a book.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 03:26 PM

I meant to add;
It is not those who acknowledge the unique role of traditional singers as recreators who are the patronisers; rather it is those who would seek to lump them in with revivalists, singer-songwriters, parlour balladists, music hall performers, C and Westerners.... and all the other different types of performers use the folk clubs to hang their hats on nowadays.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 03:31 PM

I can't be the only one choking on the ease with which the original songwriter is dismissed. Without in any way diminishing the process of domestication and localisation of a song, its popularity must have been in large part due to the excellence of the original material.

By all means fetishise transference but 'anon' does not only mean unknown in the traditional context, it suggests the real fun started after it was written - not only a challenge to authorship but a complete dismissal of its importance.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 04:19 PM

"The main problem I have with the 1954 Definition (and its conventional interpretation) is that like a lot of other Folkloric theory it romanticises community by effectively denying the creative genius of the individual. My feeling is that the creative work of the singers is overlooked in defining them merely as song carriers, who are part of The Tradition, the mechanism of which is The Folk Process."

I don't know, SS. Perhaps it's because we live in different parts of the world, but I have not found that to be the case. I find that there is plenty of latitude for creativity in choosing which version of a song I will sing, more often than not out of many to choose from, how I will sing it, how I will accompany it, and whether or not I will sing the words as I find them or make judicious modifications—without altering the meaning—in order to make a line more singable.

I know that there are folkies who are adamant about singing a song exactly as is, the way they heard someone sing it on a field recording, or exactly as they found it in a song book. The first is pointless because, first of all, the person on the field recording sang the song their own way, which was probably not exactly the same way they learned it, and second, if the field recording is the "definitive version," this brings the folk process to a screeching halt; why bother to learn the song? Just play the recording! And secondly, written music and a set of words in a book only give the most rudimentary idea of how a song (or any piece of music, for that matter) should be performed. And this also goes for classical music learned from a score. You can't help but bring a measure of creativity to learning a piece of music and performing it because you are using your own notions of how it should be done.

Every time a song is performed, it is a re-creation of that song. No singer, no matter how cleverly imitative they are, can sing a song exactly the same way someone else sang it. And further, no individual singer can sing a song exactly the same way every time.

I don't think anyone is cavalierly "dismissing" the original songwriter. With any given song, someone wrote it. And with traditional songs, oftentimes a new set of words is grafted to an existing tune—or vice versa—or an existing song is modified to meet new circumstances or tell a new story. But in the vast majority of cases with traditional songs, we don't know who this person is or who these people are. Who wrote "Barbara Allen?" Who wrote "Jock o' Braidesley?" Were these original songs? Or were they re-doings of prior songs? But they have been modified over time, either intentionally or unintentionally (by mis-hearing words or forgetting them and trying to reconstruct them).

This is the form that communal authorship takes. "Communal authorship" does not mean that a committee of people called a meeting and got together to write a song, although a few early song collecters believed this to be the case.

So with a song like "The Water is Wide" (many versions composed of "floating verses"—verses found in different contexts in other songs) or "The Streets of Laredo" (an example of an old song rewritten to fit new circumstances), who is the original songwriter?

Or did John Jacob Niles invent all folk songs in his basement back in 1910 as he was sometimes given to claim?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 03:17 AM

SS
The more I read your posting the angrier I become.

"In working with Seeds of Love last autumn for my Naked Season album……."
So you got your 'road to Damascus' conversion as long ago as last Autumn?   Some of us 'patonising folklorists' annd researchers have been screaming our message about the creative abilities of our source singers from the rooftops for the greater parts of our lives, largely to deaf ears. The response we often got was summed up nicely by our gun nut friend on this thread a few postings ago:
"I still say play the bloody music and stop rabbiting on about in dusty archives, digital or otherwise."

When we attempted to get our message across, quite often we were greeted by yelps of 'Folk Police', or 'finger-in-ear', or more recently, 'woolly jumper' (have to say, that's a new one on me – never been called one of them before). Childish names such as these (not so much schoolyard childish – rather Lord of the Flies childish) are designed to silence the dissenting voice and quite often manage to make the lives of the dissenters uncomfortable and pretty miserable.
When we ask for real folk music at our folk clubs we are told that 'If we put that sort of stuff on we'll scare away our audiences' – now there's patronising for you - towards the audiences who, it is believed, can't, or won't take the real thing (oooo, those long ballads, how frightfully boring!!!). And doesn't it show wonderful confidence in our traditional music eh???

We didn't always get it right, but at least we PFs got up off our folkie bums and went and found what our few remaining traditional singers had to say. As far as possible we made our findings available to the general public and we (dustily) archived our material with full public access. We even managed (often out of our own pockets, or by relying on the generosity of fellow enthusiasts), to make some of it readily available on CDs.
I presume you were one of those who availed yourself of the wonderful Robert Cinnamond album recorded by that 'patronising folklorist' Sean O'Boyle which was issued by Topic some 3 decades ago (I believe that the sales never made it into three figures).   Or how about 'Bonny Green Tree', the album put together by another 'patronising academic', Tom Munnelly, from his recordings of John Reilly, the Traveller who gave us The Maid and the Palmer (usually referred to as Christie Moore's The Well Below The Valley). The sales of that one were pitifully small, John Reilly died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Boyle and The Maid and the Palmer was copyrighted by Phil Coulter.

And what do you offer in place of our 'dusty folklore'? A Tinkerbell world of 'anything goes – as long as it's in 'a designated folk context', where the real folk songs, quite frankly, are not welcome.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:10 AM

"By all means fetishise transference but 'anon' does not only mean unknown in the traditional context, it suggests the real fun started after it was written - not only a challenge to authorship but a complete dismissal of its importance."

What nonsense! 'Anon' means we don't know who wrote it because history doesn't tell us!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:32 AM

Thanks, but no thanks.

Thing is, Jim - I agree with pretty much everything you say, as evidenced by your reaction to my last post. Odd how after 35 years it did come as revelation that the craft and creativity of the individual singers was the single most crucial element of what I'd hitherto been sold as the quasi-mystical Folk Process, because, as Glueman points out, Anon or Traditional mean a whole lot more than simply author unknown. Every word of your last few posts is music to my ears, as is the singing of John Reilly by the way, though I confess that I've never heard of the Robert Cinnamond record - I did have one of the Folktrax cassettes, though where it is now I couldn't possibly say*.

The main purpose of this thread was, in essence, to sort out the wheat from the chaff - the wheat being Traditional Song, the chaff being all the other stuff currently being done In the Name of Folk, and carries the greater pragmatic weight by way of definition. I came up with the term Designated Folk Context simply as a means of giving unity to the sort disparate amateurism whereby any genre of music might become Folk according to who is playing it and where it is played. But please note I am not making this up; this is what happens in all the folk clubs I have been to in the last 35 years - and has been the cause of much despair in my life for a most of that time. Throughout this thread I have attempted, for the most part, to be objective & dispassionate - on one hand I can see great value in the folk scene as it stands and those who facilitate it as such, BUT, as a consequence, I can no longer think of Traditional Song as being Folk Song simply to avoid the generality of the latter association. Whatever the rule, however, there will always be exceptions. Deo Gratias.

* I hear there are plans afoot to compile the Kennedy archive into a VOTP style series of CD compilations. All very laudable I'm sure, but better by far would be to make the entire thing available as an on-line resource, as with The Max Hunter Archive. Talk about flogging a dead horse.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:35 AM

But the tradition does not valorise the unknown author, 1954 suggests that known authorship precludes the music being folk. Where is the appreciation of the skill of songwriting in that?

My single biggest gripe against the definition is its privileging of obscurity over artizan composing. The idea that 'common music' moves beyond the pale for the sole reason of discovering who wrote the original text seems perverse, unless its to validate the collector over the performer.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:50 AM

1954 suggests that known authorship precludes the music being folk

If you think that's the case, you really haven't understood what we're talking about. The definition is all about transmission, not composition.

My single biggest gripe against the definition is its privileging of obscurity over artizan composing.

The definition distinguishes songs that have reached us one way from songs that have reached us another way. It doesn't 'privilege' anything.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 05:48 AM

If you think that's the case, you really haven't understood what we're talking about.

If that's the case, Pip - I've been labouring under a similar delusion for the last 35 years, which isn't entirely inconceivable I grant you. I think Glueman's bang on the nail there: By all means fetishise transference but 'anon' does not only mean unknown in the traditional context. Indeed, there is a lot of extra baggage carried by Anon or Traditional right up to the point where, as both yourself and Jim have suggested, the conditions for such transference, if it happened at all (which I personally don't believe it did) no longer exist!

I was singing one of Tommy Armstrong's songs recently - The Marla Hill Ducks - a true story, written in dialect to the traditional Northumbrian melody of The Wild Hills o' Wannies. Here was a master versifier writing well within a tradition of narrative folk song; his songs haven't been transferred via any sort of Folk Process, rather they have remained as he wrote them. In my heart, and the hearts of many, they are Traditional Songs, written a known individual and sung by many who regard him with considerable awe. I would hazard a guess that all the traditional songs we know are the work of similar individual genii; master craftsmen, sadly anonymous if only because the collectors had a particular point to prove regarding the communal nature of The Tradition.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 06:55 AM

" ... sadly anonymous if only because the collectors had a particular point to prove regarding the communal nature of The Tradition."

No, no, no!! "Sadly anonymous" because the names of the authors weren't written down! You are surely not suggesting that we should 'demonise' the collectors because of this? In most cases the anonymous nature of the songs was outside of the collectors' control.

Or are you suggesting that Baring Gould, C. Sharp. RVW, P. Grainger et. al. were able (via some mystic process) to divine the authors of the songs but neglected to pass this information on? Are their 'secret notebooks', containing these data, stashed in some archive somewhere just waiting to be stumbled on?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 07:11 AM

"are you suggesting that Baring Gould, C. Sharp. RVW, P. Grainger et. al. were able (via some mystic process) to divine the authors of the songs but neglected to pass this information on?"

Are you suggesting the songs are remarkable because they couldn't find them?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:01 AM

Sorry, the 'Guest' at '06:55 AM' was me.

What the 'Guest' at '07:11 AM' was on about - I'm not sure. I don't understand the question. I certainly didn't remark on the 'remarkability' of any songs because they happen to be anonymous - they just are, and no-one can now do anything about it.

Having said all that the anonymity of some folk songs (not all) is a 'red herring' and always has been. I say 'not all' because we do know the authors of some songs (e.g. 'The Famous Flower of Serving Men' is usually attributed to a 17th Century ballad writer named Laurence Price - and his name appears in Roy Palmer's, 'A Book of British Ballads' (first pub. 1980). Likewise I believe that 'A Rosebud in June' first appeared in an 18th Century play - and a bit of diligent searching could probably come up with the author. The fact that we don't know the original authors of the vast majority of songs is, to quote Bert Lloyd, "an accident of history".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:02 AM

" ... sadly anonymous if only because the collectors had a particular point to prove regarding the communal nature of The Tradition."

No, no, no!! "Sadly anonymous" because the names of the authors weren't written down! You are surely not suggesting that we should 'demonise' the collectors because of this? In most cases the anonymous nature of the songs was outside of the collectors' control.

Or are you suggesting that Baring Gould, C. Sharp. RVW, P. Grainger et. al. were able (via some mystic process) to divine the authors of the songs but neglected to pass this information on? Are their 'secret notebooks', containing these data, stashed in some archive somewhere just waiting to be stumbled on?


*

"are you suggesting that Baring Gould, C. Sharp. RVW, P. Grainger et. al. were able (via some mystic process) to divine the authors of the songs but neglected to pass this information on?"

Are you suggesting the songs are remarkable because they couldn't find them?


Good points, GUEST (S) - & welcome too; but by posting them as GUEST you run the risk of deletion. Could you post them again using a name? I've put them in this post just in case.

In a discussion recently it was revealed that Baring-Gould was of the opinion that the Traditional Singers were too ignorant to fully appreciate the symbolism of the songs they sang. This speaks volumes for the regard in which our heroes were held, and such, indeed, is the way of the folklorist; driven to falsify the facts to fit their pet theories. In many cases, it is their legacy we're dealing with here - as has already been discussed A.L.Lloyd wasn't above doing this himself.

Conspiracy? Perish the thought! After all, this is only the legacy of thousands years of feudal suppression we're dealing with here.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:03 AM

Cross post noted, Shimrod! Catch you later.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:20 AM

Anon was me. There's a theme developing that if people don't agree with the conclusions of 1954 they're a bit stupid or the don't understand the issues.

My hash would be settled by the simple expedient of traditionalists stating the work of known authors can be folk. Until then I see the definition as being arbitrary and sentimental and the underlying polemic artificial. Just one name under the wire would do.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Strippers Routines
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 10:33 AM

My hash would be settled by the simple expedient of traditionalists stating the work of known authors can be folk.

Indeed, and as stated in the MCMLIV Shibboleth: variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual AND can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer - however, this is fucked up by the absurd caveat and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community. Unwritten living tradition? WTF? Ah, the sweet romance of it all! Hardly the wonder the International Folk Music Council changed their name! I once saw a bunch of kids marching along in a Northumbrian Colliery Village, circa 1980, singing Pink Floyd's Another Brick in the Wall in perfect unison, note & word perfect, until they came to the last line which became all in all I'm just another prick without balls. Unwritten Living Tradition, or rather Unwitting Living Tradition as such things invariably are in the more mundane areas of The Living Folkloric Traditions of Our Green and Pleasant Land - and it fits the MCMLIV Shibboleth like a proverbial old shoe.

Talking of old shoe and folklore, in a recent episode of The Apprentice, one of the hopefuls used the colourful expression he couldn't pour shit from a shoe if the instructions were printed on the heel; I've since heard this four times in the field, as it were, and the two occasions I asked after provenance, both sources claimed never to have watched The Apprentice. Methinks I'll be keeping my ears to the ground on this one!

Meanwhile, I have further thoughts on this to impart anon which my present circumstance prohibits, hence the Guest name, which is, of course, an anagram of, yours truly:

Sinister Supporter


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:00 PM

"My hash would be settled by the simple expedient of traditionalists stating the work of known authors can be folk."

Your hash is settled! The work of known authors can be folk ... and who said that they couldn't?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:15 PM

"Baring-Gould was of the opinion that the Traditional Singers were too ignorant to fully appreciate the symbolism of the songs they sang . . . . This speaks volumes for the regard in which our heroes were held, and such, indeed, is the way of the folklorist; driven to falsify the facts to fit their pet theories . . ."

You are painting with a very broad brush. Baring-Gould was condescending toward the singers from whom he collected, therefore ALL folklorists are 'bad guys' and liars? And this comes from someone who defended A. L. Lloyd's fabrications in a recent thread!

"Conspiracy? Perish the thought! After all, this is only the legacy of thousands years of feudal suppression we're dealing with here."

So feudalism lasted thousands of years in the British Isles? That is a very interesting statement. But perhaps you yourself are a folklorist, and hence are 'driven to falsify the facts to to fit your pet theories'?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:26 PM

"The work of known authors can be folk"

Cheers Shimrod, I'll get to work on my list.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 01:11 PM

"The work of known authors can be folk"
Only if it is taken over by the community, adapted and changed to the extent that it appears in distinct versions and is no longer recognised as the work of an individual author.
"The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character"
IFMC 1954.

More later,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 01:22 PM

GUEST, Strippers Routines, the expression "he couldn't pour shit (piss) from a shoe (boot) if the instructions were printed on the heel," along with miscellaneous variations thereof, is one I have heard from time to time for decades. It did not originate in a recent television show.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 01:25 PM

So an individual known author can create folk music so long as it is "no longer recognised as the work of an individual author".

Tricky stuff this tradition.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 01:38 PM

Back from a very enjoyable weekend at Gosport and Fareham Folk Festival.

Seems to have been some relatively intelligent discussion amongst the name calling. I can't cope with it all so I'll pick out a few points.

Jim Carroll

But I believe that what goes on in the clubs should lie within recognisable parameters

What are those parameters? Who defines them? Where can they be found?

Pip Radish

Anyone who didn't know better would think that we were all in agreement.

I have said, a number of times that I think Jim would find much to his liking at The Lewes Saturday Folk Club as, I believe, would you.

OK, quick quiz.

I'm not sure if you are inviting me to take part in the quiz but it doesn't matter whether I mind people using the word 'folk' in lots of different ways because there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. What I do object to is the tendency to declare the folk revival dead just because some people use "folk" in a different way. It seems to me to be more important to concentrate on the music than worry about the word.

Spleen Cringe

Using Snail (sorry Bryan) as an example, despite not actually knowing him, in terms of taste and activity he appears a bit of a classic 1954er, but he clearly has a healthily anarchic streak that rails against being boxed in as such.... marks out of ten for this pithy analysis, Bryan?

Well, not really Nigel. In my 35 years on the folk scene before I joined Mudcat I had never heard of the 1954 definition. I seemed to get by without it. I am happy to describe what we do at the LSFC as "folk" even if it isn't all 1954 compliant. I'm not sure about the "healthily anarchic streak". I gather some strange things go on at some places calling themselves Folk Clubs but I rarely if ever encounter it so I don't feel the need to get over excited about it nor do I feel I have any right to tell them to stop.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 03:35 PM

It did not originate in a recent television show.

I first heard it on a TV show, then I heared it four more times in the following weeks. Coincidence? Odd how these things work - what goes around, comes around...

IFMC 1954.

One wonders how the ICTM view the 1954 definition now that they've changed their name? Note the current remit: to further the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music, including folk, popular, classical and urban music, and dance of all countries. I think I'll join & find out.

And this comes from someone who defended A. L. Lloyd's fabrications in a recent thread!

My only defence of A L Lloyd was that he indicated he'd messed around with the PBOEFS songs in the intro & notes; the full extent to which he did this has been explored elsewhere. I did not defend him for doing this, rather I feel a deep sense of betrayal having held the PBOEFS as sacred since I was 14. That's 34 years. I tell you, this was a bitter blow to my folk faith.

So feudalism lasted thousands of years in the British Isles?

Maybe I'm subscribing to the historical sentiment Rudyard Kipling expressed in The Land which covers 1600 years at least.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 03:42 PM

Hi Bryan, pleased you had a good time.
"What are those parameters? Who defines them? Where can they be found?"
C'mon Bryan, I'm sure you know what these parameters are: MacColl, Seeger, Matt McGinn, Cyril Tawney, Pete Smith, Eric Bogle, Con 'Fada' O'Drisceol, Adam McNaughton, Ed Pickford, Enoch Kent..... all using traditional styles and formats to compose new material. It has even been claimed that songs like Freeborn Man and Shoals of Herring actually passed into the tradition; (not by me, I hasten to add).
Set those parameters, as most clubs I went to did, and your audiences are given the choice of what they wish to listen to - a million miles from SS's 'make it up as you go along as long as it is in a designated folk context'.
Who sets the parameters; the club committee using a bit of common nouse - that's who (you know them - the ones who should also be setting the standards).
Did anybody declare the folk revival dead? - must have missed that one; certainly weren't me.
More later when I tackle your earlier posting.
"Tricky stuff this tradition."
Not when you accept that folk is a process, not a style of composition or a type of song. It's what happens to a song once it is passed on that makes it folk.
Example;
This part of West Clare has had an extremely strong songwriting tradition; during our collecting here we must have recorded dozens of songs composed around incidents or features of the area. These included around 12 political songs from the Irish War of Independance, 3 about local elections (including when DeValera was elected for Clare), 4 on the sinking of the French ship, The Leon X111, 3 on the local single-track railway, comic songs about drunken sprees, fashion, local murders, hair styles, fairs and markets... you name it. The largest section of these were praise songs of the area (Lovely Old Miltown, etc, and emigration). Although nearly all of these must have been composed well within the lives of the singers and in spite of our efforts, we were unable to discover the names of 1 single composer. The composers had never claimed ownership of the songs and the singers either were unable, or were not interested in finding out, so the songs simply passed into the local repertoires. When we recorded the same song from different singers, they were invariably different versions.
Even when singers kept notebooks to jot down their new songs the written version differed, sometimes considerable, from the sung one.
The same applied, to a lesser extent with the Travellers.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 03:54 PM

a million miles from SS's 'make it up as you go along as long as it is in a designated folk context'.

Jim - please read my post of 13 Apr 09 - 04:32 AM will you?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:22 PM

Note the following, SS:

Told by Leo McKellops, Anderson, Mo., May, 1933. An old story, known in many parts of Missouri and Arkansas.

"One time there was a fellow come walking into town, a-hollering how he's going to quit farming and preach the gospel. He was just a big country boy, all pecker and feet, the kind of a fellow that couldn't find his butt with both hands in broad daylight. Anybody could see he didn't know enough to pour piss out of a boot, with directions printed on the heel. But he stood right up in meeting anyhow, and told everybody he had a call to preach."
The story continues. Click HERE and scroll down to "50. The Call to Preach."

And it was undoubtedly around long before that. I think the emperor Caligula said it about Claudius just before, he, Caligula, was assassinated by his many enemies, who then appointed Claudius the new emperor.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:49 PM

"Not when you accept that folk is a process, not a style of composition or a type of song."

And there are enough people that accept that folk is MORE than just a process - and even the process is open to debate.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 05:04 PM

So an individual known author can create folk music so long as it is "no longer recognised as the work of an individual author".

Seems pretty straightforward to me - if it's "one of those songs that we sing" and gets passed on as such, then it's a folk song.

AND THIS IS NOT A VALUE JUDGMENT. Some folk songs are crap; some composed songs pin back the ears of everyone for miles around. They're still not the same thing.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM

What is the minimal level of transference metamorphosis to be considered folk?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 05:56 PM

And does a song stop becoming a folk song once it is collected and that transference ceases?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 06:45 PM

"And does a song stop becoming a folk song once it is collected and that transference ceases?"

Why do you assume that collecting a song stops the process of transference? Folklorists have understood for decades that there is a reciprocal relationship between oral transmission and print. Likewise, American scholars such as D.K. Wilgus, Archie Green and Norm Cohen have demonstrated the role of recordings in transmitting songs. A.P. Carter collected songs from 'folk' sources, revised, rewrote and recorded those songs as commercial 'pop songs' and, through the much-maligned (by some, anyway) marketplace, sent those songs right back to the Folk (folks) who had been singing them for years.

Why the 'Either/Or contruct', Sinister Supporter?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 06:47 PM

"What is the minimal level of transference metamorphosis to be considered folk?"

That is actually a good question, but it's probably unanswerable. It's a matter of degree rather than quantification.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 06:50 PM

What news of song morphology? Presumably a definition based on cultural exchange will have a ruling on the least number of variation transfers?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 06:55 PM

"What news of song morphology? Presumably a definition based on cultural exchange will have a ruling on the least number of variation transfers?"

Huh?

And that should have been 'Either/Or construct' . . .


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 07:16 PM

Aren't thesauruses wonderful!??

(Or should that be "thesauri?")

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 03:20 AM

Just thought I'd swot up on the work of one of those 'patronising academics' and I came across a quote in a collection of essays by Alan Lomax which had made its way onto the shelves only partly read (thanks for that folks).
He opens an essay entitled 'The Good And The Beautiful in Folksong' with:
"Since a folksong is transmitted orally by all or most members of a culture, generation after generation, it represents an extremely high consensus about patterns of meanings and behaviour rather than individual significance".   
One could quibble about the 'all or most', but, for me it sums up what I believe to be the communal nature of folksong; I've never believed that the phrase 'voice of the people' was randomly chosen.
SS
"Jim - please read my post of 13 Apr 09 - 04:32 AM will you?"
I had read it and to some degree I sympathise with your point; however....
I came through the door marked 'folk' nearly half a century ago. Even then, it was a term recognised for what it was, albeit not particularly pleasantly, by a fairly large number of the population via 'Miss Pringle and her school upright'. The folk boom to some degree warmed up that image a little and we fought for our place in the sun by setting up and performing at 'folk' clubs. I now have a foot in both camps and am involved in 'folksong, folklore, folktale, folkmusic, folk dance and folk custom' where the term is still current and is being used to document and research constantly. In order to shift my position on the term, it seems I would have to become both Norman Bates and his mother at the same time (which he did of course - and look where it got him).
I am now being asked to give up my seat to a bunch of squatters who couldn't find their 'folk' arses with both hands, and who haven't either the energy or the imagination to find a name of their own - sorry, I'd rather fight my corner a little longer (like, for the rest of my life).
Your point about the debasing of the term is a valid one (one I have been making to the hoots and catcalls of 'folk police' and 'finger-in-ear for a long time), but for the life of me I can't see the point of debunking a still workable definition (as I said, much in need of updating), apparently in order to accommodate the debasers - sorry.
Thanks for the reminder of the lovely 'Pissing In The Snow' collection Don.
A well known 'dusty academic' collector from Ulster once assembled a similar collection of bawdy tales from his area and, after some difficulty, found a publisher to handle them. The publisher spent a long time dissuading your man from calling them 'F****** In The Frost'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 03:40 AM

Sorry,
Was looking for something else and just found this. It's the last sentence of the series of programmes on the tradition 'The Song Carriers' by that arch finger-in-earer, Ewan MacColl. Not really relevant, but still brings a warm feeling.

"Well, there they are, the songs of our people. Some of them have been centuries in the making, some of them undoubtedly were born on the broadside presses. Some have the marvellous perfection of stones shaped by the sea's movement. Others are as brash as a cup-final crowd. They were made by professional bards and by unknown poets at the plough-stilts and the handloom. They are tender, harsh,, passionate, ironical, simple, profound.... as varied, indeed, as the landscape of this island.
We are indebted to the Harry Coxes and Phil Tanners, to Colm Keane and Maggie MaccDonagh, to Belle Stewart and Jessie Murray and to all the sweet and raucous unknown singers who have helped to carry our people's songs across the centuries."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 03:56 AM

Why the 'Either/Or contruct', Sinister Supporter?

Not so much Either/Or as Subject/Object, which is a curious dichotomy in itself when it comes to humans studying other humans. Otherwise, I was simply asking a question; if a song is removed from the natural habitat that defined it as a folk song in the first place, is it still a folk song when those criteria (i.e. those of the MCMLIV Shibboleth) are no longer being met? Interesting to note that Garfinkel first came up with Ethnomethodology in 1954 as well...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 04:00 AM

Apologies for talking over the head of common man, morphology was a word used frequently in a previous job. I could put in a link of course but look it up if anyone's interested, you never know you might learn something. Try Vladimir Propp and the Morphology of the Folk Tale for starters.
my question is about trying to take a definition from the notional and romanticised to something that'll hold water. If change is fundamental to 1954 there must be a unit of it, or we're dealing with an abstraction and all the subjectivity and confusion it brings. I'm trying to draw out what the least number of lyrical or notational morphs are required to denote folk, so that rather than, say, folk policemen (I prefer vigilante) making it up as they go along to put the rest of us in our place, those of us not in on the joke can see if '54 is said romantic abstraction or something more tangible.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 04:03 AM

that arch finger-in-earer, Ewan MacColl.

A point of pedantry here, MacColl didn't put his finger in his ear so much as cup his ear after the example the Muezzin whose melismatic influence he absorbed into his own singing to great effect, encouraging others to do likewise.

Otherwise, spiffing stuff, Jim - thanks for posting it; my heart is likewise warmed as I'm sure others will be too.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 04:31 AM

The bit in the original 1954 definition about anonymity seems to be derived from the rather romanticed image some of the early collectors had. But lets remember that these were not academic researchers but enthusiasts, driven by not only an interest in the music but often also by socio-political notions of a society and way of life which was already dramatically changing, and which the singers from whom they collected represented the last generation. The methodology and ethics of collecting were still to be established.

I haven't seen anyone here trying to defend every last detail of the 1954 definition, neither is it inconsistent for this to have evolved as the subject develops and knowledge improves. Neither is the 1954 definition in all its detail necessarily relevant to a modern performer, but the concept it tries to pin down certainly should be. As a young performer, I knew about the "folk process" long before I came across the 1954 definition in Bert Lloyd's "Folk Song in England".

With modern research resources, the origin of many traditional songs and tunes is emerging. Many can be traced back, if not to a named composer, at least to an identifiable source - broadsides, theatrical shows, military bands, classical compositions.

It is not knowledge, or the lack of it, of the original authorship which is important. "Folk" is a Darwinian process: it is the evolution of the original piece, whether it came from an individual in the community or a commercial source, which makes it "folk", and gives it its particular character. Like biological evolution, the results could be haphazard, and there are plenty of duck-billed platypuses as well as a few birds of paradise.

Of course "folk" devalues the original authorship, that's the whole point. But it's wrong to say that it devalues the source singers; the folk process means individual creativity operating within a community. Most modern performers are careful to acknowledge the original sources.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 04:56 AM

You raise some interesting points HJ and I'd agree with many. The fact remains that the romantic and abstract were lost at the point 1954 attempted to bring a critical language to the idea of folk. I talked about folk being an 'unstable' entity and much of that instability is due to (what I perceive as) a deliberately evasive use of language which sanctions anyone who styles themselves as emblematic of 'the common man' to insist on his interpretation.

Until transference is based on an agreed form of change and quantified, romantic idealism will be a barrier to widespread acceptance. The cynic might suggest the avoidance of mass take up through institutionalised equivocation is precisely what aspects of the tradition have become known for.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 05:16 AM

"MacColl didn't put his finger in his ear"
Oh, come on - I've been hammering that point since I joined this forum. I knew Ewan and Bert and I know why they sang the way they did.
The technique is centuries, probably millenia old. It is used so the singer can hear the sound of his/her voice and so, keep in tune. If some of the people who took the piss out of it used it themselves, perhaps we'd have less out-of tuners.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 05:19 AM

Do you know, I really think that we're beginning to get somewhere with this! There have been some very interesting and thoughtful contributions among the last few posts (much more civilised than some of the previous insults and backbiting). I'm particularly impressed by Howard Jones's contribution above - I agree with every word. I applaud your eloquence and insight, Mr Jones!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 06:40 AM

"It is used so the singer can hear the sound of his/her voice and so, keep in tune."

Never knew that.
Though I've never seen an opera singer, or a choral singer feel the need for the same technique I must say. It sounds just a bit theatrical to me! I don't see why any singer should genuinely need to resort to such methods in order to stay in tune - unless there's lots of loud instruments perhaps?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 06:44 AM

I thought it was to get imperfect pitch.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 07:08 AM

Crow Sister,
Keeping pitch in unnaccompanied singing can be notoriously difficult
Hand over ear certainly helps.
I think it first came into use in the UK via A L Lloyd who picked it up from Rumanian singers (can't be too sure of this though)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 07:19 AM

Meant to say, even if you don't use the technique in public, it's great for ironing out the bumps when practicing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 07:49 AM

'fingers in ear'! Paul Robson used to 'cup' his hand round his ear. And besides folk, spirituals, popular songs he also, on occasions , sang opera.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 07:58 AM

Sailor Ron
That's the technique
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 08:47 AM

Are you going to Scarborough Fair?
And if so, why? Why do you call it a fair? What do you mean by 'going', anyway?

- Simon and Garfinkel


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 09:19 AM

Any response to my earlier points from the folkier than thou tendency?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:28 AM

Any response to my earlier points from the folkier than thou tendency?

Top tip, O adhesive one: if you want answers from people, it's usually a good idea (a) not to insult them and (b) to answer questions they put to you.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 11:10 AM

Jim Carroll

C'mon Bryan, I'm sure you know what these parameters are: MacColl, Seeger, Matt McGinn, Cyril Tawney, Pete Smith, Eric Bogle, Con 'Fada' O'Drisceol, Adam McNaughton, Ed Pickford, Enoch Kent.....

That isn't a list of parameters, it's a list of names, names of people who represent your tastes. I could put up a similar list which would include some of those names but not at the top and many others involved in folk clubs could come up with their own (probably overlapping) lists. They don't amount to "recognisable parameters".

Who sets the parameters; the club committee using a bit of common nouse - that's who

Exactly, Jim, according to their own tastes and perceptions which may not entirely agree with yours.

(you know them - the ones who should also be setting the standards).

I'll leave that till you finally get round to responding to my earlier post.

Did anybody declare the folk revival dead?

Perhaps not in those words although I think you did say "moribund" at one point.

I am now being asked to give up my seat to a bunch of squatters who couldn't find their 'folk' arses with both hands, and who haven't either the energy or the imagination to find a name of their own - sorry, I'd rather fight my corner a little longer (like, for the rest of my life).

That's really sad. There are people out there who use "folk" to describe music that doesn't fit your taste. There is nothing you can do about it. Are you really going to dedicate the rest of your life to defending the meaning of one word? Better to spend the time promoting the music whatever it's called. After all, it had existed for a very long time before 1954.

The enthusiasm you have shown in the last few posts is a welcome change from your previous negativity.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 11:11 AM

(b) to answer questions they put to you.

I didn't answer them either. What was all that about anyway, Pip? Some dastardly trick I'll be bound...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 11:17 AM

"(a) not to insult them and (b) to answer questions they put to you."

Top tip Radish: before I arrived here I was not given to websults, sadly one learns to rough up in rough company. As the 54 gang were both rude and condescending almost to a man, try checking the mote in your own peeper.
If I've missed a question put to me directly you might tell me where and, after you've responded to my points, I'll endeavour to reply.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 11:19 AM

Just checking in to see if this particular circle has been squared yet...

Nope.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 11:36 AM

Not squared but softened on the corners George. My reading of recent turns goes like this: faced with some fairly damning evidence there was agreement among the more thoughtful of 1954 protagonists that the definitions didn't cover all the bases as they were written by fans; collectors, amateurs and tyros - a position it's hard to argue with.

One of the weaknesses of '54, though I'm happy to argue other fault lines, is the emphasis on transference through change. This had been left vague, deliberately perhaps in view of the consequences of pinning down what 'change' implies, but nonetheless requires a definitive and agreed unit of adaptation if Folk54 was to move beyond a late flowering of C19th romanticism and into something like a real label people can use.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 11:57 AM

"Until transference is based on an agreed form of change and quantified, romantic idealism will be a barrier to widespread acceptance. The cynic might suggest the avoidance of mass take up through institutionalised equivocation is precisely what aspects of the tradition have become known for."

Glueman, I suspect that you are Taking the Piss in a Designated Folk Discussion Context.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 12:15 PM

Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Pip Radish
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 04:31 PM

OK, quick quiz. SS, glueman, Rifleman, whoever (you know who you are): complete the following sentence.

I don't mind people using the word 'folk' in lots of different ways because:

(a) I don't care how people use the word 'folk'.

(b) I think it's a good thing that people use the word 'folk' in lots of different ways.

or

(c) I think it's a good thing that people use the word 'folk' in the ways that they use it.

Anyone?

Phrasing the same question in three different ways...Your point is what exactly?

Me a gun nut...hardly. Mr Phil Beer picked up on the Rifleman allusion sometime back, so that's old news, somewhat like this pointless 1954 definition.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 12:16 PM

Bryan,
You have an uncanny habit of stating as a fact the opposite of the truth when it comes to my opinions.
The list of songwriters I gave are certainly not my ersonal taste; can you please explain on what you base this statement. Some of them are cerainly, but I gave them as writers who were writing using traditional forms and styles - just as I said. If oyu disagree, feel free to argue, but please do not attribute opinions to me that are not my own - it is extremely dishonest.
Why oh why do you insist on making liars of so many of us?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 12:28 PM

Oh right I knew there was something else, from the song bag of St. Ewan McColl.

The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face is a 1957 folk song written by for Peggy Seeger, who was later to become his wife

Is it now? Does in meet the 1954 criteria?

To me it's always been a somewhat insipid pop tune, identified with that wonderful decade, the seventies


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 12:38 PM

Were they Pip Radish's questions? My first instinct was to answer them, my second was I hadn't got a clue what he was talking about.

What I'm asking for is a suggestion as to what is the minimum amount of change to be considered folk music according to '54. Is it two person transfer, sixty people, one verse change, 5 lines? The reason I ask is I've repeatedly come across a theoretical acceptance of recent music even from 1954 hard-liners but have yet to see an example which is acceptable to them. It's like a mirage, the nearer you get to it the more illusive it becomes.

I'm tempted to believe folk is like a game, with the tradition being Mornington Crescent.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 01:04 PM

Sinister Supporter -

Looking again at your original post and those that followed, a few things occur to me:

First of all, you are comparing unlike things. The 1954 definition was for all intents and purposes an anthropological definition, something that could be applied across time and space to any number of vernacular musical forms. As Jim Carroll has pointed out, the use of the term 'folk' in the definition is consistent with its use in folklore, folk dance, etc. Your re-definition (regardless of whether you think of it as so, that is basically what you are doing) applies to the folk clubs you frequent in England. This isn't even apples and oranges, it's more like hothouses and cultivated forests.

Secondly, I'm still not sure how you feel about the state of affairs you describe in folk clubs. In some of your earlier posts, you sound positively giddy regarding the 'anything goes' approach, and then you go and tell us that this "has been the cause of much despair in my life for a most of that time."   

Finally, what exactly was your purpose in starting this thread? You tell us, "The main purpose of this thread was, in essence, to sort out the wheat from the chaff - the wheat being Traditional Song, the chaff being all the other stuff currently being done In the Name of Folk, and carries the greater pragmatic weight by way of definition." – But this is NOT what you said in your original post.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 01:16 PM

I'm sorry, Jim, but you've lost me completely. I asked for a definition of the "recognisable parameters" that you believe should guide what goes on in folk clubs and you gave me a list of songwriters. I don't think I was being dishonest in assuming that these were people you admired especially since you started the list with MacColl.

If I have misunderstood, I apologise. Please explain what you actually meant.

Why oh why do you insist on making liars of so many of us?

WHAAAAT?!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 01:33 PM

"the term 'folk' in the definition is consistent with its use in folklore, folk dance, etc." MM

Actually, the study of folklore draws upon an array of critical techniques such as narrative theory, ideology, semiotics (and many others) none of which undermine the collection of lore and myth. By comparison folk music debate is stuck in the anthropological model of '54 you suggest. It's a brittle and defensive approach which leads to the antagonism seen here, a 'warring discourse' if you like full of personality cults and ego.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 01:34 PM

As I said Bryan, I was not wishing to confine clubs to just traditional songs; the list I provided were, in my opinion, people who have used the tradition to write songs. They have always been around the scene and they have always had my support, even if I didnt particularly warm to my work.
"WHAAAAT?!
Whenever the state of the clubs has coome up you have constantly given the impression that those of us who are concerned are ether making it up or exaggerating 'ding, ding; I'm on the bus' - is it alll coming back to you now, or am I making that up?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 01:59 PM

Glueman -

I don't believe anyone here said that the 1954 definition couldn't stand some updating. I certainly never said that. And I've cited some folklorists who have expanded upon the term in the specific field of folk music, and there are others, so I have no idea why you believe that the "folk music debate is stuck in the anthropological model of '54" . . . The question remains: Is the 'anything goes' approach proposed and (apparently)advocated by Sinister Supporter an improvement?

And why the sudden interest in scholarship, Glueman?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 02:01 PM

Phrasing the same question in three different ways

Not at all. I was curious to find out which of three different positions you were arguing from: "I like the ways people use the word 'folk'", or "I like the idea of people using the word 'folk' in lots of different ways", or "I don't care how people use the word 'folk'".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 02:16 PM

Not sudden at all MM, and only brought to the table because of continued sniping that critics of '54 don't understand what they're talking about.
If I read SS correctly he mapped out the differences between the definition and what happens currently under the folk banner. It's pleasing to see you also believe 1954 isn't as comprehensive as it's often imagined, some on Mudcat present it as an article of faith - the minimum requirement to ascended master enlightenment and a line between 'us' and 'them'.

We all draw our lines where we will. My preference is for acoustic music, preferably with traditional instruments (though I won't leave in a huff if there's a guitar) with a strong tendency towards the tradition - while being aware how arbitrary both the music and the preference are.

Since arriving here I'm impatient with those who can't - or more often won't - see the flaws in the definition and flit between patrician putdowns and earthy reprimands without addressing the criticisms.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 02:35 PM

"some on Mudcat present it as an article of faith"
I've asked similar questions on this thread, but please, where did this come from?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 03:20 PM

Bryan, As requested.

"The last two clubs I attended in the UK (last Saturday and last Thursday) were not as you have described"
So? Does that negate everything I and others have told you about our bad experiences at clubs

"Then perhaps you understand why I get a little peed off when you describe the policy we operate as "crass", "dumbing down", "promoting crap standards".
You persistently have argued that the only standard necessary for allowing a singer to sing at a club (you later made it clear that it didn't effect your club because you never got bad singers asking to sing) was the desire to do so, whether they could hold a tune, remember a text or understand a song – or not.
I have said, and I repeat, a singer should, at the very least, be able to do those things. Once they have shown themselves unable to do so, they should be encouraged, offered help from more experienced singers… however you feel you can help them, but they should not be encouraged to practice in public before an audience, certainly not a paying one. To encourage a potential singers to do so is demeaning to them, dismissive of the audience, and detrimental to the future of the music – CRAP STANDARDS.
You have accused me of attacking your club – I didn't; I said the above and will repeat it as often as you like. It was you who brought your club into the argument – I believe you said you consulted your committee before stating that was their policy   

"I'm not contesting the 1954 definition….. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it."
Except join in discussions like this when the opportunity arises.

"Accept that you've lost control of those two words but don't throw the music away".
Maybe that's your solution to things you disagree with – sorry, not mine.

"…..damning the whole UK folk scene to hell."
Do I – where? I I thought that, why should I bother involving meyself in these discussions? I have said I recognise there are good clubs – in my opinion not enough of them – and promoting crass standards is not going to improve matters.

"BREAKTHROUGH! But couldn't you try and help us rather than hindering?"
This is you at your patronising and dishonest worst Bryan.
I was going to leave this and agree that we should disagree but I came back from holiday to:
"lead by people who remember how bad it was thirty years ago and have rarely been in a folk club since." which I have no doubt was a snide reference to our past arguments, and as inaccurate an analysis as your recent effort at telling me my opinions.
I tried to take these off line, but you insisted otherwise.
I am quite enjoying this discussion – I am learning a great deal from it and I am being given the opportunity to gather my own thoughts on the subject. Unfortunately I am not going to be able to be involved to the end as I'm into hospital tomorrow and will be there for a week.
I have no intention of going head –to-head with you on this matter and nausea up a good discussion in the litle time i have to participate.
Anything else you have to say on the matter – pm me or start a thread.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 03:51 PM

"some on Mudcat present it as an article of faith" - Glueman
I've asked similar questions on this thread, but please, where did this come from? - Jim Carroll

It's based on things like:

"I'm not contesting the 1954 definition….. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it." - The Snail
Except join in discussions like this when the opportunity arises - Jim Carroll.

Surely you must see that criticising the very idea of discussing the 1954 discussions comes across as authoritarian? I've used 'article of faith' as an analogy before because it precisely fits the attitude, something based on uncritical dogma and an appeal to sentiment, beyond any rational discussion.
It's also based on Mr Bridge's conventional putdown which goes (to paraphrase only slightly) "I've explained it before (1954), if people are too stupid to see I'm not wasting my time," as though disagreeing or pointing out the fault lines were a mark of stupidity or, more often, disloyalty to an idea. I'm at a loss as to how discussing what is a definition aimed at harnessing some abstract ideas can be equated with idiocy or disloyalty. It reminds me of religious debates - or non-debates - with priests at school which also revealed institutional myopia about where to look for the truth, and a tendency to reprimand and patronise when people looked in the 'wrong' place.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 04:05 PM

A lapse, it should of course read; "discussing the 1954 definitions".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 04:08 PM

By the by, I always took -
"lead by people who remember how bad it was thirty years ago and have rarely been in a folk club since."
- referred to me, as it fits perfectly and I've admitted as much.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 04:59 PM

"Except join in discussions like this when the opportunity arises - Jim Carroll."
Sorry, have I missed something.
I have joined in this discussion - I have enjoyed being part of this discussion - I believe disussions such as this should take place - I have never at any time said they shouldn't - if it wasn't me who posted up the 54 definition in the first place I have certainly done so several times over the last few years in order for it to be discussed.
Shouldn't I have done?
"remember how bad it was thirty years ago and have rarely been in a folk club since."
- referred to me"
In which case I apologise unreservedly - I have misunderstood Bryan's message.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 08:29 PM

Nothing that Sinister Supporter has put forward is nearly as appalling as the fact that he cooks with Philadelphia Lite, and puts it on pasta.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 08:59 PM

M.Ted

Nothing that Sinister Supporter has put forward is nearly as appalling as the fact that he cooks with Philadelphia Lite, and puts it on pasta.

Oh, much worse than that is that he drinks "Greene King Sun Dance ..... more of a lager I'd say, hence I drink it chilled."

I'd love to see him go into the front bar of the Lewes Arms and order THAT in a loud voice.

P.S. Can't really respond to Jim if he's about to go into hospital but....PHEW! I hope all goes well, Jim.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 03:59 AM

Bryan,
Sorry and thanks - wasn't putting it up for sympathy ( routine - new hip); just an indication of my present ability to take part (going in tomorrow - not today as stated).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 04:19 AM

Hope all goes well, Jim!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 04:24 AM

Thanks Shimrod,
I was told by a friend last night - "the operation's a doddle - it's what you catch while you're in there that's the problem" - ah well.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 04:35 AM

Is the 'anything goes' approach proposed and (apparently)advocated by Sinister Supporter an improvement?

I'm not proposing or advocating anything, MM - simply stating the facts of the case and trying, somehow, to accommodate them. It may not be the ideal, but realities seldom are.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 04:52 AM

...although in some cases:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2u1SMdJ9a8

My faith is restored!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 05:24 AM

I'm not proposing or advocating anything, MM

Must have been a different Sinister Supporter.

20 Mar 09 - 05:36 PM

On an average night in our Folk Club (see HERE) we might hear Blues, Shanties, Kipling, Cicely Fox Smith, Musical Hall, George Formby, Pop, County, Dylan, Cohen, Cash, Medieval Latin, Beatles, Irish Jigs and Reels, Scottish Strathspeys, Gospel, Rock, Classical Guitar, Native American Chants, Operatic Arias and even the occasional Traditional Song and Ballad. We once had a floor singer who, in his own words, sang his own composition which he introduced with the Zen-like "...this is a folk song about rock 'n' roll...".

It all goes down am absolute storm, warmly welcomed and appreciated, irrespective of ability (don't worry, I'm not about raise any GEFF Ghosts here, even though I feel half the charm is in the shortfall between intention & result) and I'm sure we're not alone is this - a Folk Club being a place where people come to do pretty much what they like, but it remains, somehow Folk Music.

Date: 22 Mar 09 - 01:23 PM

I like Folk as Flotsam because, although a traddy, I like people - everyday people, coming to a folk club after a hard day's work in the fields (or on the cabs, the Job Centre, the hospital, the school, the building site, the ministry, or computer terminal) to sink a few pints and sing whatever they want to sing without someone telling them it isn't folk. This is where the Horse definition wins out, because it comes from the folks themselves, not the academics telling us how it ought to be, but obviously isn't.

Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:25 AM

In my lifetime Folk has been everything from the Traditional Northumbrian Pipe Music of Billy Pigg to the Free-Form South African Jazz of Johnny Mbizo Dyani who frequently spoke of his music as being Folk. I think of everything I do as being Folk - be it This or This. No good can ever come out restricting anything, on the contrary, the wider our appreciations of Folk the better it will be.

Date: 25 Mar 09 - 09:55 AM

it's about what speaks to the individual singer and what s/he is moved to sing on their next visit to their local folk club, singaround or festival. It is their Folk Sensitivities that moves them to be there in the first place, and to have chosen a song with respect of that sensitivity, be it traditional or otherwise, but I'd say that ultimately, it is the Folk Sensitivity of the individual singer that makes any given song a Folk Song, be it a traditional ballad, a Christy Moore song, or their version of a Johnny Cash cover of a Nine Inch Nails song.

Date: 30 Mar 09 - 11:44 AM

In a Folk Club or Folk Festival there is Individual Diversity yet there is a Communal Unity - and Unity in Diversity is a very good thing; a tad ecumenical for fundamentalists perhaps, but the Folk Thang rides on its own sweet groove, regardless. So whatever your particular stripe, whatever your dig-bag might be, we welcome you in the name of Folk and the message shall forever be - Come All Ye!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 06:34 AM

As I say, Pip - not advocating or proposing, simply telling it like it is. What's the problem?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 06:54 AM

It may not be the ideal, but realities seldom are.

Actually, cross that out. After reading Pip's timely compilation of some of my musings below I realise it is ideal.

Here's another new Jim Eldon video - the last English Traditional Singer & an example to us all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c49jHz1M9nM


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 07:00 AM

"the last English Traditional Singer & an example to us all:"
It seems we've moved on from a corruption of the term 'folk', to the corruption of the term 'traditional' - and people wonder why we bother to involve ourselves in these debates!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 07:11 AM

Would that be the royal 'we' Jim?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 07:20 AM

Corruption is a good word, but I prefer perversion, albeit in the natural course of things. Wonder what it is about Folk that inspires the sort petty pedantry that we're seeing here just now? A sure sign of a deeper seated cultural insecurity the cause of which we might well ponder, or not, as the case may be.

Anyway - watch out for those GUEST posts the pair of you as you run the risk of deletion which would be a shame.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 07:54 AM

"a Folk Club being a place where people come to do pretty much what they like, but it remains, somehow Folk Music."

"the wider our appreciations of Folk the better it will be"

"it is the Folk Sensitivity of the individual singer that makes any given song a Folk Song"

"whatever your dig-bag might be, we welcome you in the name of Folk and the message shall forever be - Come All Ye!"

Not proposing or advocating anything?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 08:17 AM

"On an average night in our Folk Club (see HERE) we might hear Blues, Shanties, Kipling, Cicely Fox Smith, Musical Hall, George Formby, Pop, County, Dylan, Cohen, Cash, Medieval Latin, Beatles, Irish Jigs and Reels, Scottish Strathspeys, Gospel, Rock, Classical Guitar, Native American Chants, Operatic Arias and even the occasional Traditional Song and Ballad. We once had a floor singer who, in his own words, sang his own composition which he introduced with the Zen-like "...this is a folk song about rock 'n' roll...".
It all goes down am absolute storm, warmly welcomed and appreciated, irrespective of ability (don't worry, I'm not about raise any GEFF Ghosts here, even though I feel half the charm is in the shortfall between intention & result) and I'm sure we're not alone is this - a Folk Club being a place where people come to do pretty much what they like, but it remains, somehow Folk Music."
This may be what people look forward to as a good night at a folk club, but it certainly isn't mine, pettily pedantic as that may sound.
I particularly liked " and even the occasional Traditional Song and Ballad"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 08:23 AM

Missed a bit,
Sorry mystery guest - don't understand your point?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 08:37 AM

SS, you say you are telling it "like it is". Assuming you're correct, the question is, why is it like that? Why is the meaning of "folk" apparently being extended ever more widely, to include music which is not traditional and has no resemblance to or affinity with traditional music?

Sometimes the reason is commercial. Big festivals understandably want to bring in as big an audience as possible. Folk is not mainstream taste, so some festivals want to target a broader audience by putting on acts which are closer to the mainstream. However, the closer they are to the mainstream, the less close they will be to folk.

In some cases, it is laziness, or perhaps timidity. Some club organisers are possibly reluctant to tell some would-be performers that their material isn't appropriate, or to establish a clear musical policy. In other cases, it is a deliberate choice to encourage as wide a range of music as possible, and to accept whatever people want to play.

Why does it matter? Because the wider the range of music described as "folk", the greater the pressure on what might be termed "core" folk music. This has been under pressure from popular culture for at least the last century, and probably longer. For example, for years Walter Pardon was hardly ever able to sing his folk songs in public, because his audience wanted to hear modern popular songs. Those songs could have been lost, it was only his discovery by the folk revival which enabled him to bring them out again.

If I am "pedantic" (which anyway I dispute) it is because I value folk music and I want it to retain its integrity, not see it eroded away by laziness or ignorance, or worse, deliberate misuse of the term by those such as yourself who appear to want to extend it to cover anything. What is described in the quote in Jim Carroll's post of 15 Apr 09 - 08:17 AM may indeed be a good night out, I'm not questioning that, but to describe that melange as a "folk club" is just to dilute the real meaning. Worse, it is gravely damaging to the future of what should properly be termed "folk".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:04 AM

For me, the description of a folk club I quoted above would fit comfortably into Dante's 'Inner Circle of Hell'. So what - that's me and my taste.
The question for me is, is this now what I can expect at a night at a folk club - is this typical, and if it is, should it be?
Have the clubs moved so far away from what I came to expect over the years I've been involved?
What do people now expect to get out of a club, apart from a pleasant night of song and music (which, for me, goes without saying) - or are people now content with SS's 'Magical Mystery Tour'?
Anwers to this would not only satisfy my own curiosity, but I am sure it would go some way towards settling part of my long-running dispute with Bryan.
Sorry - don't really want to monopolise this thread.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:13 AM

Not proposing or advocating anything?

No. As I say, just telling it like it is by way of a personal accommodation of the reality of Folk Music as we understand the term here in the UK.

Otherwise:

deliberate misuse of the term by those such as yourself who appear to want to extend it to cover anything.

It does cover anything, Howard - that's the point. Why can't you be happy with the term Traditional Music? Why do you want to repress the celebration of Folk Music as well? Even the IFMC recognised this in changing their name to ICTM.   

Worse, it is gravely damaging to the future of what should properly be termed "folk".

Priceless stuff. But according to The Rules of The Revival (and the 1954 Definition) it is already dead; so how can it possibly have a future? As I asked earlier on: if a song is removed from the natural habitat that defined it as a Folk Song in the first place, is it still a folk song when those criteria (i.e. those of the MCMLIV Shibboleth) are no longer being met?

Meanwhile, some properly defined "folk" music being played by properly defined "folk" musicians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1uGV38sphU


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:22 AM

This is better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQcKAdT41No


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:22 AM

Here's another new Jim Eldon video - the last English Traditional Singer & an example to us all

SS, I've agreed with everything you've said about traditional music until this. Can you describe why you think he's a traditional singer? I see someone who is putting himself up as a performer even though he's not a very good singer or fiddle player, doing a parody of a modern composed song. And doing it all in a silly costume. Where's the traditional?

This is why we get into debates about the meanings of words. If someone like yourself who should know better calls this traditional, what should I call the music I play? "Folk music" is lost to me. "Traditional music" is going. Why are you doing this?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:36 AM

Thank you for finally responding to my post of a couple of weeks ago, Jim, although I had hoped for a reasoned discussion rather than a tirade of abuse based on a version of what I had said twisted out of all recognition by your own prejudices.

I tried to take these off line, but you insisted otherwise.

Yes, you had become abusive in your PMs so I decided I'd rather have witnesses if I was coming under attack.

I hope the operation goes well. It may put you in a more agreeable frame of mind.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:37 AM

Can you describe why you think he's a traditional singer?

Jim Eldon is an idiosyncratic genius whose understanding & mastery of Traditional Song is second to none. That he chooses to apply this genius to other aspects of his (our) immediate popular culture is nothing short of miraculous. Like other idiosyncratic traditional genii (Davie Stewart to name but one) he remains an acquired taste, but the best things in life always are. Jim is the pure drop and a national treasure besides.

For more, check out the Jim Eldon Appreciation Society thread and have a look at the other videos of Jim on Corona Smith's YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/CoronaSmith.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:46 AM

This will have to be my last post on the thread. The unwillingness to engage with the point by (a group hitherto avoided as a cliche) the folk police - is astounding. Every rhetorical trick has been played plus wounded feelings, evasion and avoidance, snippy personal attacks none of which get to the heart of the topic.

The 1954 definition should be consigned to the era that spawned it. People have pointed out where the weaknesses and limitations are, if vested interests are playing for time addressing them that's their problem.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:48 AM

"Why are you doing this?"
How about - so he won't have to give a straight answer to any of the questions, as he has done throughout this thread.
"Not proposing or advocating anything"
Sorry - you're lying - the terms in which you presented a night at your club make that fairly obvious.
But just in case I'm misjudging you - what do you think of what you described? (Waits patiently while half-a-dozen more irrelevant clips are put up).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 11:18 AM

Bryan,
Please feel free to put my abusive PMs up for all to see, but I would request that you waited until this thread has run its course.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 12:00 PM

SS, if this thread was pure description without any advocacy it would have died in five minutes - I think everyone posting here, from Jim to Bryan to glueman, already knows that a free-for-all gallimaufry of varying styles and standards is widely on offer under the banner of 'folk'. You're clearly celebrating the way things are in (some) contemporary folk clubs, proposing that the word 'folk' should be used to reflect those clubs and advocating that the rest of us join you in abandoning any alternative definition.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 12:19 PM

This will have to be my last post on the thread.

Sorry to see you go, Glueman - I know we're coming at this from slightly different corners but once the folk police begin to close in for the kill, it's a comfort to know that there is at least someone else on this thread who can think outside the box.

Sorry - you're lying - the terms in which you presented a night at your club make that fairly obvious.
But just in case I'm misjudging you - what do you think of what you described?


All I did was to describe an average night at The Fleetwood Folk Club, much like dozens of other folk clubs I've been to over the years; I'm not hyping it, nor am I advocating it, simply celebrating what happens. What do I think of it? Does it matter what I think of it? Fact is the people who go enjoy themselves very much indeed or else they wouldn't go - and on a good night (say 7/10) it can be transcendent.

(Waits patiently while half-a-dozen more irrelevant clips are put up)

Just reminding you of what we're on about that's all. Here's another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Y_tuSsCXw

You're clearly celebrating the way things are in (some) contemporary folk clubs

All clubs I'd say, Pip - to a greater or lesser extent anyway; even those where Trad. is high on the agenda, such as The Beech.

proposing that the word 'folk' should be used to reflect those clubs

Not just the clubs, but the usage of the word as a whole, from CDs, radio stations, magazines, labels, fora etc etc. And not proposing, just telling it - er - like it is.

and advocating that the rest of us join you in abandoning any alternative definition.

There is no alternative definition - just a meaningless shibboleth concocted 7 years before I was born that has even rejected by the people who came up with it. Still, it would appear to have become the cornerstone of a new faith entirely, that which thinks that Folk Song and Traditional Song are one and the same thing. Wrong! Now - go figure.

Otherwise - how nice you look in your new uniform, Pip - and my, aren't the Folk Police looking younger these days?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 12:23 PM

The unwillingness to engage with the point by the folk police - is astounding. - Glueman

Apparently, trying to find out what others mean by traditional music makes me the folk police. I guess the definition of "folk police" is being degraded now, too. I've been accosted by the real folk police often enough to know the difference. There really are people out there who take on, in the real world, while music is actually being played, the task of chastising those who don't play it "right". I understand that some folks, if they've been similarly accosted, might be gun shy about it. I haven't, however, seen the police in this discussion, and I'm not sure that disagreeing in an internet debate rises to that level in any event.

SS, I still don't get what about that video you thought was traditional. I'll watch more of his stuff tonight, but this particular clip is about as far from any normal definition of traditional music as I can think of. Can you discuss this song in more specific terms?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 12:36 PM

Can you discuss this song in more specific terms?

I could, but until you've experienced more of Jim Eldon's work there would be little point.

And after your example there it is perhaps it is a little strong in calling novitiate traddies (such as Pip) Folk Police, they're more like Community Support Officers.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 12:54 PM

"(Waits patiently while half-a-dozen more irrelevant clips are put up)."
Now THIS is a nasty patronising attitude


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 01:02 PM

Now THIS is a nasty patronising attitude

It's one of their tactics, Rifleman - they patronise until you give up the will to live.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 01:03 PM

Sinister Supporter –

I still don't understand a few things:

You're not advocating anything, you're celebrating what happens in folk clubs. And yet this state of affairs has caused you "despair' in the past, and you started this thread to the separate the wheat ("Traditional Song") from the chaff ("all the other stuff currently being done In the Name of Folk"). So you are celebrating the chaff that causes you despair?

You believe that "(t)here is no alternative definition - just a meaningless shibboleth . . ." Is there really no alternative to your insistence that 'folk music is what happens in folk clubs'? No alternatives to a self-referential tautology? I think Don Firth, Howard Jones and Jim Carroll provided some clear alternatives. If you feel like cracking open a book, there are some American folklorists who don't fit into your false dichotomy.

But then have you admitted that you are offering a re-definition of Folk Music? I still say you are comparing unlike things. The 1954 definition, for all its shortcomings, can be applied cross-culturally; your re-definition tells me about what happens in the English folk clubs you frequent, and nothing more.

I have to confess that I am beginning to suspect that this entire thread is nothing more than a tremendous wind –up on your part.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 01:36 PM

"it's a comfort to know that there is at least someone else on this thread who can think outside the box."

We'll call this an epilogue then SS. There is sufficient evidence to support your original proposition - which I didn't see as inflammatory or advocated anything other than the facts. Additional points illustrate 1954 is a partial, ill-founded and outdated conclusion to what folk is. Clear thinkers among the traditionalists admit as much.

To avoid those conclusions requires a degree of evasion no amount of additional words from me will fix. If '54 advocates don't address those points it's because they don't want to see them.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 01:43 PM

"It's one of their tactics, Rifleman - they patronise until you give up the will to live."

I've come to expect nothing less from Carroll and Co., and I'm never disappointed, (consistency in this day and age is a rare commodity *LOL*)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 01:44 PM

SS, Pip was asking you some questions. Calling him ANYTHING puts you in the same camp with Glueman. Of course, you also just made reference to there being folk police on this thread, at the same time that you're grousing about others' patronizing attitudes. Please stop making these kind of accusations. It really isn't furthering the discussion, and it's not true.

When you say things like There is no alternative definition - just a meaningless shibboleth concocted 7 years before I was born . . . it would appear to have become the cornerstone of a new faith entirely, that which thinks that Folk Song and Traditional Song are one and the same thing. Wrong! you lose the right to bitch about anyone else's tact. Do you really not understand that using phrases like "meaningless shibboleth", "a new faith", "a deeper seated cultural insecurity", "petty pedantry", "but once the folk police begin to close in for the kill", and "thinks that Folk Song and Traditional Song are one and the same thing" is condescending and rude? Do you really think those sentiments are supported by the evidence in this thread?

Without seeing any of Jim Eldon's other videos, I can still say with some certainty that the one in question isn't traditional music, and that you seem to think it is. How is that? And how is my seeing any of his other work going to affect whether or not this particular song is traditional?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 02:36 PM

There is no alternative definition - just a meaningless shibboleth

Um, lots of people don't agree with you with regard to this one. And you're not getting any more persuasive.

how nice you look in your new uniform, Pip - and my, aren't the Folk Police looking younger these days?

You needn't try to charm me with your sweet-talking manner.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 02:43 PM

"I am beginning to suspect that this entire thread is nothing more than a tremendous wind –up on your part."
It's funny you should say that.......!
"consistency in this day and age is a rare commodity"
On the contrary; those who fail to make their point always revert to juvenile name-calling.
"Carroll and Co."
Right lads - down to the pub for a few pints then we'll all go and sink a curry.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 02:55 PM

On the contrary; those who fail to make their point always revert to juvenile name-calling.
"Carroll and Co."

I've no point TO make, never did, perhaps you're missing the point.I've no agenda, no nothing, I merely play the music,I've no real need to attempt to put each and every tune into it's own little pigeon-hole. What is it with you people who feel the need to pigeon-hole music? I never really did understand the concept. Who was it who said "there are only to types of music, good music and bad music" ? Because whoever it was got right in one.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 02:57 PM

Oh and the Carroll and Co. in your case I prefer to keep things on a semi- formal to formal basis, friends I call by their first names.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 03:07 PM

SS keeps using this word "shibboleth" and I realised that I didn't really know what it meant - so I googled it:

"A'shibboleth'is any distinguishing practice which is indicative of one's social or regional origin. It usually refers to features of language, and particularly to a word whose pronunciation identifies its speaker as being a member or not a member of a particular group."
(Wikipedia)

Well, I belong to a group who believes that 'folk song' is a limited and definable genre and that the 1954 definition is a good guide to the limits. In my opinion the word 'shibboleth' may not be entirely appropriate in this context - but close. Nevertheless, I don't see anything to be ashamed of. I'm certainly not ashamed of the fact that the existence of that particular group appears to get up certain peoples' noses. I believe that that is the problem of the nasally afflicted, and until they can come up with something better than "folk song is anything I say it is" it will remain their problem.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 03:28 PM

Jim Carroll

Please feel free to put my abusive PMs up for all to see, but I would request that you waited until this thread has run its course.

If you like, but I think it would be a bit boring for everybody else and your post of 14 Apr 09 - 03:20 PM generally repeats the same material.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 03:50 PM

More often than not, the word "shibboleth" is used as a pejorative and conveys the first meaning in the Merriam-Webster definition below. "Empty of meaning," "blather," "nonsense."
shib•bo•leth
Function: noun
Etymology:   Hebrew shibbôleth stream; from the use of this word in Judges 12:6 as a test to distinguish Gileadites from Ephraimites
Date: 1638
1 a: a word or saying used by adherents of a party, sect, or belief and usually regarded by others as empty of real meaning (the old shibboleths come rolling off their lips — Joseph Epstein) b: a widely held belief (today this book publishing shibboleth is a myth — L. A. Wood) c: truism, platitude (some truth in the shibboleth that crime does not pay — Lee Rogow)
2 a: a use of language regarded as distinctive of a particular group (accent was…a shibboleth of social class — Vivian Ducat) b: a custom or usage regarded as distinguishing one group from others (for most of the well-to-do in the town, dinner was a shibboleth, its hour dividing mankind — Osbert Sitwell)
Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 04:01 PM

What is it with you people who feel the need to pigeon-hole music?

"What do you do?"
"I'm a musician."
"What kind of music do you play?"

at this point I could say
"Why do you feel the need to pigeon-hole music?" Not very friendly.

or I could say
"I play folk music"
"Oh, you mean like Joni Mitchell!"

or I could say
"I play traditional music"
The responses at this point range from "What's that mean?" to "Oh . . ." with a glazed, bored look.

Are a classical violinist, a rapper, and a jazz saxophonist all pigeon-holing if they describe themselves as a classical violinist, a rapper, and a jazz saxophonist?

I've actually been using "ethnic folk" sometimes. Most people seem to have some idea of what I'm talking about. I've tried to avoid using "world music", although it's possible that traditional music fits better there these days than under the folk umbrella.

Since you don't have any agenda, and don't like definitions, why should you care what anyone calls it? Why wade through nearly 1000 posts on this thread?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 04:18 PM

So you are celebrating the chaff that causes you despair?

Sounds about right, MM - trying to anyway.

SS, Pip was asking you some questions.

Bullshit - he's been riding my fecking ass all day & doesn't he just know it? I expect he's having a good chuckle about right now at The Beech, Designated Folk Contexts and all. If I was feeling any better I'd be there laughing with him too. Hope it was a good one, Pip.

SS keeps using this word "shibboleth" and I realised that I didn't really know what it meant - so I googled it:

Read on, Shimrod! The word is also sometimes used in a broader sense to mean jargon, the proper use of which identifies speakers as members of a particular group or subculture. That is the sense I use it here. One of my musical projects is called Shibboleth; we've even got a myspace page: Shibboleth. Folk Music? Yes, I like to think so.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 04:44 PM

"your post of 14 Apr 09 - 03:20 PM generally repeats the same material."
In which case people will be able to decide for themselves whether my posting was "a tirade of abuse"; but as I said - feel free.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 04:54 PM

And how is my seeing any of his other work going to affect whether or not this particular song is traditional?

Well, let's see how it fits with the criteria of the 1954 Definition shall we? The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character. I would say Jim's done a number on that one, given that the use of the word community in the 1954 is a bit of a red-herring anyway, as it side-steps the crucial creative role of individual musicians within that community. In the Northumbrian Smallpipe Tradition, for example, individual musicians & composers are justly celebrated; their compositions become part of that tradition. With rspect of traditional song, Jim Eldon is one such musician, with respect of adaptation, interpretation, collecting, facilitating, writing and song-carrying - as a closer examination of his work would reveal.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 05:06 PM

By taking a small part of any definition can prove the moon is green cheese should it be in your interest to do so.
"their compositions become part of that tradition."
Only if their music is taken up by the community and undergoes the folk process, or are you now seeking to re-define 'tradition' too?.
"Jim Eldon is one such musician"
Now you're beginning to sound like a Jim Eldon groupie - personal taste is no basis for definition.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 05:22 PM

Only if their music is taken up by the community and undergoes the folk process, or are you now seeking to re-define 'tradition' too?.

There is a Tradition of Composition for Northumbrian Smallpipes; this is readily accepted a being Traditional Music. Look again at the remit for the ICTM (formerly the IFMC - who came up with 1954 Definition in the first place): to further the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music, including folk, popular, classical and urban music, and dance of all countries.

As a certain Jim Carroll said in his post of 13 Apr 09 - 03:17 AM: Some of us 'patonising folklorists' annd researchers have been screaming our message about the creative abilities of our source singers from the rooftops for the greater parts of our lives, largely to deaf ears.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 05:43 PM

When y'all decide on a definition, would someone be kind enough to post it on a new thread? Thanks.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 05:51 PM

he's been riding my fecking ass all day & doesn't he just know it?

I'd like to make it plain at this juncture that I have no interest in riding Sean's fecking ass in any way, shape or metaphorical form.

I expect he's having a good chuckle about right now at The Beech

Wrong again, unfortunately - couldn't make it. But I'm taking a break from this thread now, along with Jim Carroll and glueman (strange coincidence - have they ever been seen together?)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 06:35 PM

"The word is also sometimes used in a broader sense to mean jargon, the proper use of which identifies speakers as members of a particular group or subculture. That is the sense I use it here."

I might have known that 'shibboleth' would need re-defining!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 06:44 PM

So is Jim Eldon writing Northumbrian smallpipe tunes? A lot of traditional Swedish music also has known composers, and I accept a good deal of recently composed music in other traditions as being part of the tradition. I understand that Jim, like most of us, does both traditional material and more modern stuff. That still doesn't make this a traditional song. I'm part of the traditional music community, and I am not accepting this particular song as anything even vaguely traditional. If you are, then you are one of the people who is trying to take away part of my identity. Since you know better, it rankles. Stick to calling it folk if you must, but leave the traditional part off, please.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 06:54 PM

Since I seem to be on the opposite side of the argument, I guess I'm one of the "folk police", although it's not a description I recognise or agree with. I thought I had been addressing the point, but perhaps after 900+ posts I've lost sight of it.

If the point is the 1954 definition itself, then actually I don't give a monkey's about it. It's an academic definition, for academic purposes, and I'm not an academic. I'm interested in folk music from the point of view of listening to it and performing it. I'm not bothered about the minutiae of the 1954 definition, or whether or not it covers all the possibilities, or whether this or that amendment should have been, or should now be, made to it. None of that's very important to me. But the concept it encapsulates and the process that it attempts to describe are absolutely fundamental, and from the perspective of a listener and performer the 1954 definition is a good starter to understand why traditional music is what it is.

If the point is about the meaning of words, then my position is clear. I accept that "folk" has for a long time - longer than I've been involved - meant more than "traditional". However up until now it has meant something which bears some resemblance to "traditional", whether in the musical or lyrical structures or simply the ideas it expresses.

What I cannot accept is the argument that since "folk" doesn't just meant "traditional" it can therefore encompass anything. I don't think that's helpful in any way - it doesn't help anyone to know in advance what sort of music they can expect to hear, it doesn't help someone who hears and likes something new to seek out more of the same. Not only that, I think it's actually damaging because it obscures real folk music, and in particular traditional music.

On an average night in our Folk Club we might hear Blues, Shanties, Kipling, Cicely Fox Smith, Musical Hall, George Formby, Pop, County, Dylan, Cohen, Cash, Medieval Latin, Beatles, Irish Jigs and Reels, Scottish Strathspeys, Gospel, Rock, Classical Guitar, Native American Chants, Operatic Arias and even the occasional Traditional Song and Ballad.

Each of these descriptions tells me something about the music and what it might sound like. What value is added by throwing the label "folk" over them? If you asked the average person in the street, with no axe to grind, whether most of these were "folk", do you think they'd agree?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:02 PM

Howard, this is how I feel as well. Quibbling about the details of 1954 is only interesting to academics, and my interest is in playing the music. Somehow, me and everyone else I know has a clear idea of what traditional music is. It doesn't seem that complicated.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 03:30 AM

One last round.
Does it matter what we call our music if all we want to do is play it? maybe not to the individual peformer, but it certainly does if we want others to listen to it.
In the days when the folk revival was in a far better state than it is now one of the untiting factors was our consistency. It spread over a wide range of material, but it was recognisable. We could choose our folk clubs on the basis of how the music was played rather than on what type of music organisers had decided to give us. It fell within identifiable parameters.
Our access to the media was by no means enough but it was far greater then.
MacColl was giving us 'The Song Carriers, 10 superb programmes on what he could consistently refer to 'folk music' and know he would be understood, followed by another four on the 'folk' revival. Bert Lloyd gave us 13 excellent programmes called 'Songs of the People', a world-wide look at folk music using the best examples. He gave us two on the songs of the Durham miners, and something like a dozen on various aspects of folk song, as did other broadcasters, David Attenborough, John Levy, Deben Bhattacharya.... loads more. Charles Parker and Phillip Donellan were producing documentart radio programmes and films: Passage West (immigration), Gone For A Soldier, The Irishmen, The Iron Box (George Jackson), and other on Travellers, canal people, Appalachia.... you name it - folk songs and music were an integral part of it. We still have several hundred of these on our shelves.
The other side of the coin was The Spinners, The Dubliners, The Clancys, Hall and MacGregor; all playing music that had a firm basis in '54'. We even had our own programmes, which again varied widely but never really strayed too far from what we could recognise as having a consistent identity.
By and large we lost our access to the media, but even among the few crumbs we are now being fed, the last substantial programme I saw, 'Folk Britannia' was based on something I could recognise as folk.
And what would SS give us as a substitute image - "Blues, Shanties, Kipling, Cicely Fox Smith, Musical Hall, George Formby, Pop, County, Dylan, Cohen, Cash, Medieval Latin, Beatles, Irish Jigs and Reels, Scottish Strathspeys, Gospel, Rock, Classical Guitar, Native American Chants, Operatic Arias and even the occasional Traditional Song and Ballad" oh, and sung "irrespective of ability". I can just hear the media hammering on the door wanting a piece of that. Haven't heard Mike Harding's programme for a long time, but is this what he's giving out now?
So SS would rob us of any coherent public identity with his 'desigated folk context' definition.
Then he would rob us of our connection with all the other 'folk' disciplines (can't help but notice that he consistently refuses to address this one). I don't altogether agree with a definition only being a of interest to academics, but I haven't got time to go into it now.
Then he would take away from us our freedom to choose our own music, by subsituting it with his Magical Mystery Tour.
He would even deprive us of our chance of co-operating and communicating with each other by totally fragmenting our music and consigning our definition to individual clubs.
For all his crocodile tears over fair play to our source singers, he would separate them from their folk identity and from their ability to create, by trying (and failing miserably) to credit our folk songs to the work of 'talented individuals'.
All of which indicates, to me at least, that SS, 'traddie' though he claims to be - (not forgetting his shotgun-riding friend), neither understands the tradition nor gives a toss for its welfare.
Must go - Galway calls.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 04:27 AM

I'm part of the traditional music community, and I am not accepting this particular song as anything even vaguely traditional.

What I actually said was that Jim was a traditional singer; I said nothing about this particular song - it was you who assumed I thought it was traditional. However, as I've shown, and only when prompted by your good self, it might be viewed through the lens of the 1954 Definition with respect of The Folk Process, which must be the work of creative individuals well versed in the tradition adapting popular material for their own ends much as Jim has done here. I too am part of the traditional music community, and find this aspect of the Folk Process justly fascinating.

Then he would rob us of our connection with all the other 'folk' disciplines (can't help but notice that he consistently refuses to address this one).

Remind me, Jim - what are these other Folk Disciplines of which you speak? Do let me know, and I'll do my best to address them.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 04:54 AM

I would call Jim Eldon a singer of traditional songs, rather than a "traditional singer", but let's not get diverted down that road.

SS, of course individual creativity plays a part in the folk process, but its not the only part. The folk process can just as easily happen through forgetfulness or unconscious changes. It can also happen through collaborative creativity involving more than one individual.

What you don't seem to understand is that individual creativity is just a part of an ongoing process by which a folk song develops - changed and shaped, deliberately or otherwise, by the singers through whom it passes. That is what distinguishes a traditional song from most other forms of music, where individual creativity results in a definitive finished version.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 05:11 AM

Folklore, folkdance, folktales, folk customs, folk music etc....
Byeeee
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 06:47 AM

Folklore

How would you be defining that yourself, Jim? I the sense of Popular Antiquities or the ongoing responses of an observable collectivity? The former sense is quaint; the latter somewhat less so, but no less engaging, as it deals with an ongoing folkloric process and the reasons thereof, rather than any romanticism as such, Frazerian or otherwise.



I grew up in the colliery villages of SE Northumberland; I was very familiar with rapper, and delight in the dancers who have invaded recent sessions and singarounds in Preston and Byker. I don't dance myself, but have played pipe & tabor for the odd morris side in my time. Truth to tell, I have no real feelings on this - I like it when I see it; as do most people, and I'm hearted that people do it, for whatever reason. If I go to the 5000 Morris Dancers thread I see that I once wrote RVW was a reactionary fantasist too, his words woefully out of step even by the standards of his time, let alone the England of some 50 years after his death (almost to the day). This is the England in which we live, a complex multi-ethnic & multi-cultural England in which morris dancing & folk singing are minority hobbies with a good deal less cultural currency to actual English folk as (say) line-dancing & karaoke. I guess I still still that way.   

   
Folktales

As as professional storyteller myself I have a vested interest in this. Out of choice I tell only what I call Traditional Folk-Tales - which is to say those stories found in the collections of The Brothers Grimm, Asbjorsen and Moe, John Sampson, Samuel Lover, Crofton Croker, etc etc, as well as stories I've been given by Traditional Storytellers I've been fortunate to work with (such as Duncan Williamson), and from other storytellers at work in the field of the Storytelling Revival. You may view my on-line CV Here.

My feeling is that the morphology of folk-tales is in part determined by the same psycho-biological subroutines that determine linguistic structure; this is one of of the reasons we get folk-tales o'er leaping linguistic boundaries. One of my first Mudcat threads was to do with precisely that very phenomenon, and whether or not the same thing was true of folk song. See Folklore: Analogues Across Linguistic Frontiers. I must stress, however, that my interest in Folk-Tale is vocational, not academic, but my concerns with the phenomenon of traditional narrative - both sung and spoken - are something of a lifelong passion.

I could go on - perhaps on another thread if you've a mind for it, but from your reactions hitherto I very much doubt it.

folk customs

Where does one start? I guess we're in a similar territory to Folklore here, with regard to observation & interpretation and Frazerian fantasies of menacing overtones of pagan ritual etc. so at times it's difficult to get a handle on any of it other than to sit back and enjoy, which I do - be it the Bury Man of South Queensferry or the Penny Hedge at Whitby. I love Bob Pegg's book Rites and Riots; makes a lot of sense. Meanwhile, here's my own wee film of the Cheese Rolling in Chester; do have a look at some of the comments though, it's a hoot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=993m0yRR0bg   

folk music

Well, I'm afraid I'm with Louis Armstrong on this one, Jim - though I do allow for Traditional Music, though I don't have too much to do with it personally; I play a few whistle tunes, a bit of pipe & tabor and I even play Jew's Harp in sessions from time to time. I love a lot of the old players - Seamus Ennis (who I regard as a fine singer & storyteller too), Felix Doran, Tom Clough, Billy Pigg, etc. etc. who seem to represent something very different to what happens today, though there are musicians today whose playing I love dearly.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 06:50 AM

Oops! Posted that by accident without checking the preview button. Still, you'll get the gist of it, mistakes and all - still full of a cold and I start three days storytelling in Northumberland tomorrow...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 07:18 AM

Sorry, Howard - just seen this:

What you don't seem to understand is that individual creativity is just a part of an ongoing process by which a folk song develops - changed and shaped, deliberately or otherwise, by the singers through whom it passes.

I understand the theory well enough - I just don't agree with it. Individual creativity is the whole of the case; that is, the very particular creativity of the individuals through whom it passes.    The songs were likewise created by individuals, and individuals recreated them according to their own needs and requirements. We can see this process at work today in individual singers & performers, and I doubt very much that it's ever been any different.

That is what distinguishes a traditional song from most other forms of music, where individual creativity results in a definitive finished version.

I don't think there is a single example of a definitive finished version of anything; even a record is the product of a process which may be subject to further sampling, remixing and any amount of cover versions. A classical piece may well be finished in the sense of a written composition, but each interpretation of it is going to be very different. I was listening to the London Baroque recording of Purcell's Sonata #6 in G Major the other day and only half way through did I recognise it from a recording by Hesperion XXI with which I'm very familiar indeed. So much for definitive finished versions! The experience of music will always as be as immediate as its realisation - and variation will always exist a every level simply because nothing can ever happen the same way twice.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 09:11 AM

What you don't seem to understand is that individual creativity is just a part of an ongoing process by which a folk song develops - changed and shaped, deliberately or otherwise, by the singers through whom it passes.

I understand the theory well enough - I just don't agree with it. Individual creativity is the whole of the case; that is, the very particular creativity of the individuals through whom it passes.    The songs were likewise created by individuals, and individuals recreated them according to their own needs and requirements. We can see this process at work today in individual singers & performers, and I doubt very much that it's ever been any different.


I don't understand what you're saying here - you seem to be contradicting yourself. A folk song - traditional song if you prefer - arises when individual takes a song and changes it (whether by a deliberate creative act, by mistake or unconsciously), and another individual takes that changed version and makes their own changes. Where someone simply takes a song and makes their own arrangement of it, that's a cover. You can't look at the individual in isolation, a folk song is the sum of a number of individuals' creativity. What bit of this don't you agree with?

To go back to an earlier example, we have simply no way of knowing how much of John England's version of "Seeds of Love" was his own creation and how much of it came from the singers he learned it from. It is stretching credulity to imagine that the song came entirely from his own imagination, entirely independent of the other versions collected from other singers.

You haven't answered my other question: when the words you have used to describe the music at your club are perfectly adequate, what is added by throwing the label "folk" over it all?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 10:30 AM

What I actually said was that Jim was a traditional singer; I said nothing about this particular song - it was you who assumed I thought it was traditional.

Bullshit. Now I understand the spat about posting irrelevant videos. If you post a video in this discussion, introducing it with Here's another new Jim Eldon video - the last English Traditional Singer & an example to us all:, one naturally assumes you are posting something you would like others to think of as a traditional song. If you didn't want people to think that you think this song is traditional, you should introduce with something like Here's another great Jim Eldon video I'd like to share. Not traditional at all, but entertaining nonetheless.

I have to say, SS, it gets harder and harder to refrain from ad hominem attacks against you when faced with this kind of thing. Let's see if I can do this politely: What in the world were you thinking? Why are you wasting everyone's time? If you don't think that song is traditional, why did you spend any time at all defending it by blathering on about individual creativity being part of the folk process and tradition? Can we change your name to Red Herring?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 10:54 AM

Jim,
Even though my primary interest in this music isn't academic, but rather just playing the music, I do think definitions are important. What I don't think is important is wrestling over the details of the definition. The only reason for doing that is to establish clear lines, which I don't think is possible or desirable. As has been noted here before, probably by you, the lines are movable and the gray area is huge. When I see SS legalistically bending the words of 1954 around so that it includes anything he wants it to, I have an interesting dual reaction: I'm bored by the legalistic point-making; it reminds me of a courtroom, where more credit is given to building a logical edifice than to arriving at the truth. In a discussion of this type, it's just piss-poor communication. But I'm also pissed off that someone who clearly understands the folk process is perverting the meaning of 1954 to make it include anything he happens to like, making the definition of traditional music as meaningless as the definition of folk has become.

As I've said, everyone I know who knows anything about traditional music has a really good idea of what traditional music means. It's not rocket science. Part of the reason I'm in this discussion is because there are apparently a lot of people who don't know enough about traditional music and who want to call all manner of things traditional that clearly aren't. My lines on this topic are wider than most, and I still get called the folk police when I ask that modern compositions by people who don't play traditional music don't get referred to as traditional music. Of course, I know that when small-minded folk are confronted with the need to support their silly statements, they use name calling instead of a simple "Oh, good point."


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 11:44 AM

Jim "....that SS 'traddie' though he claims to be....neither understands the tradition nor gives a toss for its welfare".

I feel I must take up cudgels over this [not that SS needs anyone else to defend his views]. Firstly this threat was, at least originaly, about the relavance, today, of the 1954 definition.
SS has mentioned several times what he is likley to hear at his local folk club, which is also mine. Yes we do get all that he has mentioned, but, and it is a big but, well over 60% of what is performed is 'traditional'[ that is if you include broadsheets, chapbooks, and 'old songs by unknown authors], plus a fair number of what I would call songs written in the traditional style or idiom.
Of all the people I have met in 'the folk scene' over the past 40 years SS is, without a doubt, one of the most leaned, and passionate,
exponants of the great traditional ballads. Besides ballads he he sings a vast number of 'traditional' songs, and if he also has a love of Kipling/Bellamy songs so what? He also on occasions descends to the deapths os singing some of mine [Shock! Horror!]. Does this make him any less a 'traddie'? And as for 'not giving a toss', well [and forgive me for this Jim, 'cause much of what you have said throughout this thread I totally agree with], is a complete load of bollocks !    Sailor Ron


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 11:48 AM

"Individual creativity is the whole of the case; that is, the very particular creativity of the individuals through whom it passes."

No, it isn't. At this point, I almost expect you tell us that "there is no society, only individuals." If you spend a lot time with some rather large folk/traditional collections (Max Hunter, etc.) it becomes very obvious that there are some singers who try to replicate lyrics and melody just as they heard them, some who try to do so and miss the mark, others who sort of adapt what they heard from others (including recordings and radio broadcasts – which can be part of the folk process, in my opinion, and this is a point upon which I diverge from the 1954 definition) to their own style, and, finally, others whose versions seem to be very creative and deliberate re-creations, the work of talented people. ALL are important to the folk process.

"I don't think there is a single example of a definitive finished version of anything . . . . and variation will always exist a every level simply because nothing can ever happen the same way twice."

On this point I have no disagreement with you, but I believe it is a matter of degree. There are hundreds of collected versions of Child #200, Child #84, 'I Die For Love'/'Butcher's Boy', etc. If you have a lot of time on your hands, you can group them variously in terms of lyrical and melodic content; you can identify regional variants; you can trace the spread of those variants (and the people who carried them) through time and space (the north of England/lowland Scotland/Ulster to Appalachia on to the Ozarks and even on to FSA camps in Depression-Era California, etc.) . . . .   Can you describe anything remotely close to this process at work in the variations one can find among recorded versions of a piece of symphony music (for example)?

" . . . I do allow for Traditional Music, though I don't have too much to do with it personally."

Again, I wonder exactly what you are up to with this thread. You have described yourself as a 'traddie' – indeed, at one point you told us that you started this thread to separate the wheat (traditional song) from the chaff (everything else that happens 'in the name of folk) - and now you tell us you don't much to do with Traditional Music?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM

"Since you don't have any agenda, and don't like definitions, why should you care what anyone calls it? Why wade through nearly 1000 posts on this thread?
ummm.. when push comes to shove and to be perfectly honest I don't give a rat's behind what people call it, and I haven't "waded' through however many posts there have been, nor do I intend to, that'd be a total waste of time and energy, much better spent on actually playing the music.

At the end of the day, the music, whatever YOU choose to call it, will rise or fall on its own merits and not on the judgements or merits of the self-appointed gate-keepers (they know who they are).


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 12:14 PM

You can't look at the individual in isolation, a folk song is the sum of a number of individuals' creativity. What bit of this don't you agree with?

I disagree that such a procedure is any different from what happens in any other music and that it might be dubbed The Folk Process as a consequence. You must look at the individual in isolation otherwise fall victim to the entrenched romanticism attending the notions of community, anon and, dare I say, traditional so beloved of Folkies. If you believe this to be the case too, we have no argument, but hold on...   

To go back to an earlier example, we have simply no way of knowing how much of John England's version of "Seeds of Love" was his own creation and how much of it came from the singers he learned it from.

Seeds of Love has many elements in common with other traditional songs; it is comprised of those elements, and others, assembled with great ingenuity by the singer, much as any singer does in the working out of his own version of an existing song, or creating a new song from particular elements, as is evidently the case here. Does the melody exist elsewhere? Has Seeds of Love ever been collected from a source independent of John England? If not, then I suggest Seeds of Love is John England's creation and that the mechanism of The Tradition and The Folk Process is not one of anonymous unwitting communality (as suggested by the 1954 Definition) but one of very careful, purposeful masterful craftsmanship of given individuals. It is not some random Darwinian survival of the fittest a has been suggested; on the contrary, it is the result of master craftsmanship and a meticulous attention to musical detail.   

You haven't answered my other question: when the words you have used to describe the music at your club are perfectly adequate, what is added by throwing the label "folk" over it all?

It's not me that does that, Howard - it is in the very nature of Folk to do that because whatever genres the individual Folk Musician might aspire to, it is generally only in Folk Contexts they might find an audience - and an appreciative one at that. We're not talking about professionals here, rather passionate amateurs, variously gifted, who bring their unique talents to the fold. Thus Folk isn't a type of music - it's the context in which they do the type of music they play. I'm not proposing this as some fantasy - it happens in every folk club I've ever been to a greater or lesser extent. Even in the Professional Folk World, Folk Artists regularly push the boat into other areas and yet they remain popular with Folk audiences. Do hip-hop audiences dig the rap versions of folk songs various Folk Artists have given us of late? Does Tim Westwood play The Imagined Village on his radio show? With few crossovers, Folk remains quite contentedly sealed and those artists who reach out to snatch at other genres invariably do so in the name of folk. That's what Roots was all about - as evidenced by the sort of musics covered by the magazine fRoots or else played on Folk on 2, precious little of which would qualify as Folk according to the 1954 Definition but remains Folk nevertheless.

***

If you post a video in this discussion, introducing it with Here's another new Jim Eldon video - the last English Traditional Singer & an example to us all:, one naturally assumes you are posting something you would like others to think of as a traditional song.

Very fundamental to the nature of Traditional Singers is that they are not duty bound to sing only Traditional Songs, but also might reach out and grab what they can and absorb them into their idiomatic repertoire where they are transfigured with respect of a tradition without actually being traditional in the 1954 sense.

If you didn't want people to think that you think this song is traditional, you should introduce with something like Here's another great Jim Eldon video I'd like to share. Not traditional at all, but entertaining nonetheless.

In the words of Pontius Pilate: I have written what I have written.

I have to say, SS, it gets harder and harder to refrain from ad hominem attacks against you when faced with this kind of thing.

Don't blame me for own lack of understanding when all I've done is to be so good as to spend my precious time clarifying something which should be fairly obvious, especially to a self-confessed member of the traditional music community.

Let's see if I can do this politely: What in the world were you thinking?

I've explained what I was thinking - I've explained it until I'm blue in the face; most of my posts on this infernal thread have been in answer to the questions of others. Go back and read them.

Why are you wasting everyone's time?

On the contrary - it is my time that's being wasted here simply by having the good grace to response to posts such as this one. No one is soliciting your response, JP - I only write here when solicited to do so.

If you don't think that song is traditional, why did you spend any time at all defending it by blathering on about individual creativity being part of the folk process and tradition?

Why? Because for one thing you asked me to do so and for another because without individual creativity there would be no folk process or tradition in the first place.

Otherwise - it is my firm conviction that Jim Eldon is a very important figure in the field of Tradition English Folk Song and what he does matters a good deal. It is also my firm conviction that the Tradition isn't dead, that it lives on in people such as Jim Eldon and countless others whose names aren't even known outside of their respective folk clubs - no doubt even yourself. What I see is a very beautiful community of individual singers learning & singing traditional songs - even people who've only sang once or twice in public, newcomers, old and young, their lives transformed with respect of a tradition that they themselves are transforming simply by the singing of it. I see that it still has great potency, and that potency is of supreme importance.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 12:27 PM

You have described yourself as a 'traddie'... and now you tell us you don't much to do with Traditional Music?

Whilst I sing almost exclusively Traditional Songs from the English Speaking Traditions (including the Max Hunter archive) I don't play Traditional Music. When it comes to music (even that which I use to accompany my performances of Traditional Songs and Stories) I mostly improvise, which I might see as being Folk by default but it's not Traditional because apart from the song melodies I don't play tunes. Likewise I might bring to bear my humble talents on the Jew's Harp into a session, but I'm just adding a counter-rhythmic drone the like of which isn't traditionally part of the music, it's just something I like to do as a creative improvising musician.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 12:39 PM

"You must look at the individual in isolation otherwise fall victim to the entrenched romanticism attending the notions of community, anon and, dare I say, traditional so beloved of Folkies."

Bull Pucky. You cannot draw a line between the creativity of individuals and the traditions within which they work. I suspect you understand this, because in your very next paragraph you tell us (re: John England): "Seeds of Love has many elements in common with other traditional songs; it is comprised of those elements, and others, assembled with great ingenuity by the singer . . ."   Take the singer out of his traditions, his community, and Seeds of Love could not have been written. BOTH are important, and I suspect you know John England would not have written his song if he grew up in Encino, listening to the Beatles.

"Whilst I sing almost exclusively Traditional Songs from the English Speaking Traditions (including the Max Hunter archive) I don't play Traditional Music . . . it's not Traditional because apart from the song melodies I don't play tunes."

Here I'm afraid you are approaching almost total incoherence.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 01:37 PM

to all, this thread may reach 1000,but:
# You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 01:46 PM

I've just noticed that the thread ID is 119547.

Spooky!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 01:47 PM

It appears to me that this thread ran its course sometime ago. Putting it out of its misery comes to mind.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 02:21 PM

Here I'm afraid you are approaching almost total incoherence.

The distinction was suggested by Jim Carroll, but seeing you're having difficulty, allow me to clarify. I sing Traditional Songs but I don't play anything from the instrumental traditions. Thus do I distinguish Traditional Song (er - Songs) from Traditional Music (instrumental tunes). Now go back & read it again.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 02:38 PM

I read your post three times, and I still didn't understand your point. I'll confess, the distinction between Traditional Song and Traditional Music went right past me. But at least we are both using a term – Traditional – and we both seem to agree upon what it means. Still . . . if you're singing traditional material (sometimes with accompaniment), unless you are using your own, self-composed melodies for each ballad or song with no connection to traditional melodies, aren't you still performing Traditional Music?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 02:44 PM

Very fundamental to the nature of Traditional Singers is that they are not duty bound to sing only Traditional Songs,

Yes, of course.

but also might reach out and grab what they can and absorb them into their idiomatic repertoire where they are transfigured with respect of a tradition without actually being traditional in the 1954 sense.

You seem to be saying that anything should be called a traditional song, as long as someone does a different version of it. Do you really think that?

I've explained what I was thinking - I've explained it until I'm blue in the face;

OK, please try again using small words that someone of my limited understanding will get. Do you think that Jim Eldon song is traditional? You have answered both yes and no in the last couple of days. If you don't think it's traditional, why post it with on this thread with an introduction about him being a traditional singer?

Otherwise - it is my firm conviction that Jim Eldon is a very important figure in the field of Tradition English Folk Song and what he does matters a good deal.

OK, no disagreement there. That still doesn't make his parody of a modern song traditional, or pertinent to this discussion.

It is also my firm conviction that the Tradition isn't dead, that it lives on in people such as Jim Eldon and countless others whose names aren't even known outside of their respective folk clubs - no doubt even yourself. What I see is a very beautiful community of individual singers learning & singing traditional songs - even people who've only sang once or twice in public, newcomers, old and young, their lives transformed with respect of a tradition that they themselves are transforming simply by the singing of it. I see that it still has great potency, and that potency is of supreme importance.

This is actually quite moving, and I feel the same way.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 03:07 PM

It appears to me that this thread ran its course sometime ago. Putting it out of its misery comes to mind.

I agree. Come on, lads - let's knock it on the head before it reaches 1000. If anyone wants to ask me anything else PM me.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 03:29 PM

Come on, lads - let's knock it on the head before it reaches 1000. If anyone wants to ask me anything else PM me.

Sounds good to me!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 05:21 PM

SS:

Just so I understand: you agree with the "folk process", it's the specifics of the 1954 definition you disagree with? As someone else has mentioned, this is starting to turn into a legalistic argument over small details, and I'm not interested in taking it any further. In any case, it's not your views on traditional music which bother me so much as your enthusiasm for bringing every other kind of music under the sun under the "folk" umbrella.

I don't disagree that you can hear all sorts of music in folk clubs, although in my experience not usually to the degree your postings suggest (and I note that a visitor to the same club suggests that you may have given an exaggerated impression of the amount of "other" music heard even there). It is your need to classify it all as "folk" which I am struggling with. Most people seem to be able to hold in their heads the idea that you might sometimes hear in a folk club music which is not "folk". It is not necessary to redefine the music in order to smuggle it through the door.

"Seeds of Love": my copy of Peter Kennedy's "Folksongs of Britain and Ireland" lists three versions Kennedy collected himself (from George Maynard, Bill Squires and Gabriel Figg) and over 30 printed versions from all around the British Isles, many of which include several variants. Sharp alone had at least 27 variants.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 05:36 PM

Yo Howard - the party's moved on (some have fetched up in a little hostelry called Does any other music require a committee). If you want to discuss this further, PM me - otherwise, for Christ's sake, man - let it lie!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 06:06 PM

Yes, it moved on while I was composing my last reply - it took me some time to tot up all those versions of Seeds of Love :)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 08 May 09 - 06:21 AM

We never got to a thousand. That's dereliction of duty. Are we men or mice? Are your opinions not worth standing up for (a bit longer)?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 08 May 09 - 06:23 AM

Dammit! It was supposed to be my last post.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 May 09 - 07:07 AM

You wouldn't let it lie, would you?

Well, to use another vintage Vic Reeves catch phrase that was my idea to knock it off before it reached a thousand as we all decamped over to your Does Any Other Music Require a Commitee Thead just before Howard came up with his Seeds of Love sources, for which I was very grateful. For the record, I've got a big poster of Maud Karpeles on my wall that bears the old X-Files slogan I WANT TO BELIEVE...

And in return for some choice vintage Zappa c/o the very lovely M.Ted, I'm in the process of having the entire 1954 definition tattooed on my back, much to the bemusement of our local tattooist, who's more accustomed to the faux-Moari that's all the rage these days. It's a long and painful process, and bloody expensive too.

Given it's Cultural Liminality however, perhaps we ought to start another thread entitled Does Folk Music Exist? I won't be the one to open it though...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 08 May 09 - 08:24 AM

"Does Folk Music Exist?"

Ah,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan,g'wan.

G'wan.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:43 AM

Sorry, just getting a little nostalgic for the glory days.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 09:43 AM

Irk The Purists


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 06:08 PM

994


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